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[Wulfer]

Something good comes out of videogames WoW what's this world coming too. Too all those fussing about Halo's use, if a positive message is used in the gathering what's the harm. Folks we live in a world where CNN splashes blood on the screen on a daily bases. It's all about the message the youth leaders are using that makes the difference! What it comes down to that some don't like the idea that this is attracting young people to God, thats the rub some people have. To bad for them.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I should be asking you if you're serious. Hey maybe I'll take Ahmedinejad's opinions of Israel and the US and take it at face value, I mean he must be objective since he's a government official, right? You're doing that exact thing but in reverse.

No, he is using evidence from the past to make predictions about the future. If you look at a man's words or actions, they can give you a good guess at how they will behave in the future. So if one leader is prone to making statements that are not supported by an abundance of historical evidence and others that run counter to mountains of historical evidence, then it would probably be wise not to accept his words at face-value.

 

[Azure Dream]

Church condemns game - GAF calls church dumb
Church says game is cool - GAF calls church dumb

processing.....
....

GAF is dumb

Church condemns game involving aliens landing in a fictional World War 2 - GAF calls church dumb
Church knowingly uses Mature rated game to bait kids under that rating level to come in and play, even calling it "baiting" - GAF, or at least a portion of it, cringes in disgust


This isn't a church saying "Violent games are just top notch!" This is a church using something they know is popular, they know many kids can't get, to bring them in and evangelize. One of the parents quoted mentioned he wasn't informed the game was rated the way it was.

This isn't some open-minded statement on their part, this is fucking candy on a string.

 

[Campster]

Church condemns game involving aliens landing in a fictional World War 2 - GAF calls church dumb
Church knowingly uses Mature rated game to bait kids under that rating level to come in and play, even calling it "baiting" - GAF, or at least a portion of it, cringes in disgust


This isn't a church saying "Violent games are just top notch!" This is a church using something they know is popular, they know many kids can't get, to bring them in and evangelize. One of the parents quoted mentioned he wasn't informed the game was rated the way it was.

This isn't some open-minded statement on their part, this is fucking candy on a string.

Again, why is America's Army exempt from such criticism by gamers? Isn't it an attempt to brainwash and lure children into its evil clutches as well?

 

[GSG Flash]

No, he is using evidence from the past to make predictions about the future. If you look at a man's words or actions, they can give you a good guess at how they will behave in the future. So if one leader is prone to making statements that are not supported by an abundance of historical evidence and others that run counter to mountains of historical evidence, then it would probably be wise not to listen to him.

You don't understand the point, I'm not trying to defend or support Ahmedinejad here, I'm just pointing out to viakado that taking an opinion about Iran from one of Iran's enemies at face value is just as bad as taking an Iranian official's opinion of the US and Israel.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

I should be asking you if you're serious. Hey maybe I'll take Ahmedinejad's opinions of Israel and the US and take it at face value, I mean he must be objective since he's a government official, right? You're doing that exact thing but in reverse.

you haven't mentioned one FACTUAL information that contradicts my statements. just argumentative. give me at least one and we'll foward with out little discussion.

 

[Miniboss1232]

Church condemns game involving aliens landing in a fictional World War 2 - GAF calls church dumb
Church knowingly uses Mature rated game to bait kids under that rating level to come in and play, even calling it "baiting" - GAF, or at least a portion of it, cringes in disgust


This isn't a church saying "Violent games are just top notch!" This is a church using something they know is popular, they know many kids can't get, to bring them in and evangelize. One of the parents quoted mentioned he wasn't informed the game was rated the way it was.

This isn't some open-minded statement on their part, this is fucking candy on a string.

Well, I agree with the Mature-rating sensibility argument, at least on the face of it. My parents let me play Mortal Kombat when I was 10, and I turned out okay, but that's because they knew I could handle it. When you open it up to a random group of people, you can't always know that, even though I'd say Halo is pretty innocuous in that sense.

As for "baiting" kids, I think better words could be used. But it's no worse than any other group in the world does, organized or otherwise.

Again, why is America's Army exempt from such criticism by gamers? Isn't it an attempt to brainwash and lure children into its evil clutches as well?

I'm pretty sure there's been lots of remarks about America's Army as well. I don't particularly have a problem with that game either.

Some people think it's brainwashing. I think it's just advertisement.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Again, why is America's Army exempt from such criticism by gamers? Isn't it an attempt to brainwash and lure children into its evil clutches as well?

Because uunlike the followers of the prince of peace, that isn't counter to the military's stated purpose.

A chant I learned in basic:

Motivated, motivated!
Hell yeah motivated!
Ooh ah,
I wanna kill somebody.
Ohh ah,
I wanna kill somebody sooooooon!

I do not see a conflict.

 

[Ulairi]

Church condemns game involving aliens landing in a fictional World War 2 - GAF calls church dumb
Church knowingly uses Mature rated game to bait kids under that rating level to come in and play, even calling it "baiting" - GAF, or at least a portion of it, cringes in disgust


This isn't a church saying "Violent games are just top notch!" This is a church using something they know is popular, they know many kids can't get, to bring them in and evangelize. One of the parents quoted mentioned he wasn't informed the game was rated the way it was.

This isn't some open-minded statement on their part, this is fucking candy on a string.

The Anglican Church isn't condemning video games, it's condeming the use of an important site in the Church, without permission.

 

[Dirtbag]

This thread is giving me a headache.
I'm not religious at all, but I'm kinda stunned at how many of you are going so far out of your way to take jabs at religion. There is def. some major irony in this church's choice of game given Halo's religious metaphors, but can you really blame them. Halo is pop-culture in America and they're trying to capture some American youth. It's a smart plan if you ask me. You've got to go where your audience is, or risk failure.

I think its kind of neat seeing the church 'attempt' to evolve to the world around us. They've got alot of catching up to do.

 

[Miniboss1232]

Because uunlike the followers of the prince of peace, that isn't counter to the military's stated purpose.

A chant I learned in basic:

Motivated, motivated!
Hell yeah motivated!
Ooh ah,
I wanna kill somebody.
Ohh ah,
I wanna kill somebody sooooooon!

I do not see a conflict.

So you equate killing people in a game to killing people in real life.

So you agree with Jack Thompson now?

This thread is giving me a headache.
I'm not religious at all, but I'm kinda stunned at how many of you are going so far out of your way to take jabs at religion. There is def. some major irony in this church's choice of game given Halo's religious metaphors, but can you really blame them. Halo is pop-culture in America and they're trying to capture some American youth. It's a smart plan if you ask me. You've got to go where your audience is, or risk failure.

I think its kind of neat seeing the church 'attempt' to evolve to the world around us. They've got alot of catching up to do.

100% agreed.

 

[Pureauthor]

I think part of the problem here is that Halo 3 is a M-rated title, and the church apparently isn't restricting the game to people who would (theoretically) not be candidates for purchase of Halo 3.

Of course, the church needed a 'big' game if it was going to draw in crowds to any significant degree, and that does limit the available options. GTA? I think most churches draw a line there. Madden? Maybe, but it doesn't really have a 'it's the next big thing' appeal to it.

I still think this isn't a good move.

So you equate killing people in a game to killing people in real life.

So you agree with Jack Thompson now?

Count Dookkake had said it multiple times in this thread that it's not he himself that has the problem, but he believes that since the church condemns other 'virtual' sins (such as pornography, hentai, and the like), that it makes leeway for 'virtual' violence is hypocrisy.

For the record, I don't agree with this particular stance, but that's what it is.

 

[Count Dookkake]

As for "baiting" kids, I think better words could be used. But it's no worse than any other group in the world does, organized or otherwise.

"It's okay because other people do it" is not something I found during my time with Christianity.

So you equate killing people in a game to killing people in real life.

So you agree with Jack Thompson now?

No, of course not. I am just saying that people who are trained to kill and train others to kill would not be made hypocrites by playing a violent game.

 

[GSG Flash]

you haven't mentioned one FACTUAL information that contradicts my statements. just argumentative. give me at least one and we'll foward with out little discussion.

I wasn't aware that you gave out any factual statements to begin with. The only thing you said that was even close to fact was Ahmedinejad saying "wiping Israel off the map" which was mistranslated from "Wiping the Zionist regime from history" which is what he actually said in Farsi.

 

[[Nintex]]

I think it's a great thing that they try new ways to attract young people to their church. The religion's are constantly changing and youth's won't go to the church to sing and confess their sins. These kids play Halo and they learn a thing or two about god, jezus and the bible. It's important that our religions keep up with modern times, otherwise these kids would be running around with a AK47 instead of a Spartan Laser.

They won't become zombies, zealots or crusaders from a few stories about religious believes. And they interact with other people, instead of playing games, shouting JEW! in their headset at home.

 

[Miniboss1232]

"It's okay because other people do it" is not something I found during my time with Christianity.

In every case, no. You seem to think that you've got all of the facets of Christianity locked down. There are some things that just don't matter, but people like to make big deals about them.

No, of course not. I am just saying that people who are trained to kill and train others to kill would not be made hypocrites by playing a violent game.

So a Christian is a hypocrite because he plays a violent game? Because he's simulating killing people? Murder simulator? Jack Thompson?

I'm sorry, I don't see how you're NOT agreeing with him.

 

[Azure Dream]

Again, why is America's Army exempt from such criticism by gamers? Isn't it an attempt to brainwash and lure children into its evil clutches as well?

1. America's Army games are rated from E-T, the latter recommended for ages 13 and up. They don't contain, well, this.

2. You can't sign up for the Army under 18. Not in this day and age. You can be on their "track" for it, I'm sure, but it doesn't do them a whole lot of good to be pulling in underage kids with violent video games. And again, the America's Army games are not Mature-rated, so to echo this, they'd have to be bringing in 10 year olds to play in recruitment centers.


I'm not saying the America's Army franchise was some wonderful, untouchable thing. But it was also produced for glorifying the army, much in the same way that some religious games are produced for glorifying their religion. Halo was not produced to pull kids into churches for lunch and "a friendly chat." Parallel fails, stop making it.

 

[Pureauthor]

I think it's a great thing that they try new ways to attract young people to their church. The religion's are constantly changing and youth's won't go to the church to sing and confess their sins. These kids play Halo and they learn a thing or two about god, jezus and the bible. It's important that our religions keep up with modern times, otherwise these kids would be running around with a AK47 instead of a Spartan Laser.

They won't become zombies, zealots or crusaders from a few stories about religious believes. And they interact with other people, instead of playing games, shouting JEW! in their headset at home.

I... what?

 

[Count Dookkake]

I think part of the problem here is that Halo 3 is a M-rated title, and the church apparently isn't restricting the game to people who would (theoretically) not be candidates for purchase of Halo 3.

Thank you for saying that and showing some of the posters here that this isn't an atheist vs religion issue. It is a hypocrisy issue. It makes sense that non-Christians would be quicker or more willing to make the distinction, but it is gratifying to see that a believer goes against the stereotype.

This is the same problem I had with school and church trips to the Passion. Distinctions about the ethics of a particular depiction of a violent act were never a part of the religious discourse involving minors and violent enertainment, until a product came out that they felt justified in showing to kids. Never mind that the majority of horror films are fairly conservative in their world view.

EDIT- speelling erers

 

[Herpes Reasons]

I wasn't aware that you gave out any factual statements to begin with. The only thing you said that was even close to fact was Ahmedinejad saying "wiping Israel off the map" which was mistranslated from "Wiping the Zionist regime from history" which is what he actually said in Farsi.

:lol
yes he did. and so did the religious leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. And on top of that numerous rallies, and government slogans.
c'mon man. gimme something substanstial besides something missing in translation card. :lol

 

[Pellham]

What's the big deal with letting kids play M-rated games anyway? Nobody seriously believes in Jack Thompson's crap on this board, right?

 

[Count Dookkake]

So a Christian is a hypocrite because he plays a violent game? Because he's simulating killing people? Murder simulator? Jack Thompson?

No, because it is a thought-sin like enjoying porn or engaging in online relationships. Not all Christians subscribe to the idea of thought-sin, but many do. Those are the people who I am talking about. I am interested in this particular church's view on porn. This has nothing to do with Thompson's concept of the murder-simulator and everything to do with the application of cafeteria Christianity.

I'm sorry, I don't see how you're NOT agreeing with him.

Hopefully, that clears things up. If not, I will answer further questions.

 

[Miniboss1232]

Thank you for saying that and showing some of the posters here that this isn't an atheist vs religion issue. It is a hypocrisy issue. It makes sense that non-Christians would be quicker or more willing to make the disctinction, but it is gratifying to see that a believer goes against the stereotype.

This is the same problem I had with school and church trips to the Passion. Distinctions about the ethics of a particular depiction of a violent act were never a part of the religious discourse involving minors and violent enertainment, until a product came out that they felt justified in showing to kids. Never mind that the majority of horror films are fairly cnoservative in their world view.

As I've stated before, I can see the M-rated angle and agree with it. However, if all of the kids were 18+, I don't see how this would be hypocritical. And maybe we agree on that. I don't know.

I'd also like to add that this has been a good discussion, everyone. After the dreadful first page or so, we've gotten down to those who really want to talk about the issue.

No, because it is a thought-sin like enjoying porn or engaging in online relationships. Not all Christians subscribe to the idea of thought-sin, but many do. Those are the people who I am talking about. I am interested in this particular church's view on porn. This has nothing to do with Thompson's concept of the murder-simulator and everything to do with the application of cafeteria Christianity.

Well, I think that particular viewpoint would be better brought up in another time and place. I now see what you're describing though.

Hopefully, that clears things up. If not, I will answer further questions.

It does, actually. I think there was just some misunderstanding in the air.

 

[Stinkles]

Big woop. People play Halo for all sorts of reasons. Let 'em enjoy it.

 

[Pureauthor]

No, because it is a thought-sin like enjoying porn or engaging in online relationships. Not all Christians subscribe to the idea of thought-sin, but many do. Those are the people who I am talking about. I am interested in this particular church's view on porn. This has nothing to do with Thompson's concept of the murder-simulator and everything to do with the application of cafeteria Christianity.

I've noticed that when the 'thought-sin' is brought up, porn usually follows with it.

I think one point of contention that many people seem to miss is that when the 'thought-sin' of porn is involved, it's mainly because the end goal is still the same as actual sex - sexual gratification.

Whereas in the thought-sin of a 'violent' game like Resident Evil 4 - is the end goal the violence itself, like in real violence? Or is it from succeeding in a game? If someone is the kind who gets his kicks on graphical, digitized violence, then yes, I would be concerned (which is partly my issue with this whole thing - you're letting kids of unknown character and personality makeup engage in a violent game, we have no idea how they react to it). In most cases, the 'M'-rating and above is an arbitrary value for someone like me, because removal of all the gore honestly doesn't make a whit of difference to my enjoyment of the game - for others, it might not be so, and I don't have sufficient information (or moral integrity, if we're going to be frank) to judge them on that.

So, yeah, I don't really think the 'thought-sin' argument is (entirely) valid.

 

[GSG Flash]

:lol
yes he did. and so did the religious leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. And on top of that numerous rallies, and government slogans.
c'mon man. gimme something substanstial besides something missing in translation card. :lol

Really? I'm assuming you can find me a source that does not have ties to Israel that he stated those things? It shouldn't be too hard for you.

And translation does matter, as we had a big discussion about it on the off topic forum a month ago, many of the statements that Ahmedinejad supposedly said can't even be expressed in Farsi.

 

[Miniboss1232]

Big woop. People play Halo for all sorts of reasons. Let 'em enjoy it.

$$$$

 

[Crushed]

Big woop. People play Halo for all sorts of reasons. Let 'em enjoy it.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HALO

THEY'RE GIVING KIDS MURDER SIMULATORS

 

[Pureauthor]

POKEMON TEACHES EVOLUTION

IT IS OBVIOUSLY A TOOL OF THE DEVIL

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Really? I'm assuming you can find me a source that does not have ties to Israel that he stated those things? It shouldn't be too hard for you.

And translation does matter, as we had a big discussion about it on the off topic forum a month ago, many of the statements that Ahmedinejad supposedly said can't even be expressed in Farsi.

there was a topic on this in the OT? do you mind linking me? these issues really peaks my interest. as for said source i'll find a couple, but i'll pm you it, its not relative to the topic.

 

[Fourth Storm]

People who are against this type of fellowship need to calm the eff down. Halo is one of the least offensive videogames out there. If your whole way of life was threatened by a hostile alien takeover, does the Bible tell us to go quietly into the night? Hells no! You fight! The God of the Bible is a God of love AND justice. He/She would probably tell us to find the Ark of the Covenant and carry it into battle!

 

[speculawyer]

tinfoil hat conspiracy time!

see what's happening is, the power that be are merging RELIGION, POLITICS, POPULAR CULTURE to train America's youth for upcoming wars. wars that will in-part, seem more & more like videogames. but also to get them used to killing and violence in person. brainwashing am total. :lol

Hey, I hit upon that idea on the first page of posts.

Onward Christian soldiers!

How else are we going to recruit zombie zealots to fight in these pointless mid-east wars?

 

[Pureauthor]

People who are against this type of fellowship need to calm the eff down. Halo is one of the least offensive videogames out there. If your whole way of life was threatened by a hostile alien takeover, does the Bible tell us to go quietly into the night? Hells no! You fight! The God of the Bible is a God of love AND justice. He/She would probably tell us to find the Ark of the Covenant and carry it into battle!

Maybe it's because it's way late where I live, but I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say with this post.

I think it's time I went to bed.

 

[Count Dookkake]

People who are against this type of fellowship need to calm the eff down. Halo is one of the least offensive videogames out there. If your whole way of life was threatened by a hostile alien takeover, does the Bible tell us to go quietly into the night? Hells no! You fight! The God of the Bible is a God of love AND justice. He/She would probably tell us to find the Ark of the Covenant and carry it into battle!

1) It is an M-rated product.

2) Turn the other cheek.

 

[speculawyer]

How many Jack Thompson threads are on GAF in which people challenge this logic? Everyone here is against violence - yet plays extremely violent videogames? Is this hypocricy, or are the two subjects different? Playing violent videogames has no bearing on your personal beliefs on real violence. You know, in real life.

Actually, I'm surprised it took so long for someone to bring up JT. JT, a Christian-far-right-winger, has gone after Microsoft for Halo 3. So it is pretty funny to see other Christians using Halo 3 as a recruiting tool.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Actually, I'm surprised it took so long for someone to bring up JT. JT, a Christian-far-right-winger, has gone after Microsoft for Halo 3. So it is pretty funny to see other Christians using Halo 3 as a recruiting tool.

DUH! Should have seen that much sooner. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Pureauthor]

Actually, I'm surprised it took so long for someone to bring up JT. JT, a Christian-far-right-winger, has gone after Microsoft for Halo 3. So it is pretty funny to see other Christians using Halo 3 as a recruiting tool.

Christians don't share some hive mind, alright? Just because Jack Thompson is a Christian doesn't mean I (or any other Christians) have to agree with him when he says something.

A fact, mind you, that I am profoundly grateful for.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Christians don't share some hive mind, alright? Just because Jack Thompson is a Christian doesn't mean I (or any other Christians) have to agree with him when he says something.

A fact, mind you, that I am profoundly grateful for.

looking from the outside in, we're all the same brother. that's not a new cocept.

 

[Fourth Storm]

1) It is an M-rated product.

2) Turn the other cheek.

1. While I certain can't argue the fact that it is rated M, I personally don't find the content as offensive as say, GTA. I don't believe ratings have anything to do with how moral a game is, only how graphically they depict the events (in which case, the Bible would also be rated M).

2. The meaning of turning the other cheek has deeper meanings than just accept getting your ass kicked and hope for the best. Some theologians/Bible scholars have concluded that the way the first "slap" is described in the oldest account, is a backhand - the way you treat a slave. To turn the other cheek is to say, "fine, do it again, but treat me as an equal." Hopefully, that makes sense.

Anyway, that was in the context of a Roman occupation, which generally allowed the Jewish people to retain their way of life and worship as they wished. If that were threatened to be eradicated (as it was many times in the Old Testament), then I believe it would be appropriate to take up arms...as Master Chief does in Halo.

I can't believe I just wrote that...

As for the hypocricy, this is being done by a few communities, it's not the whole church advocating Halo. If a specific person who bashed games before was now using Halo to draw in new members, then OK, I'll give you that. There are plenty of good priests/pastors out there who aren't pedophiles, who are in touch with reality, and are just trying to do the right thing, even with the rampant corruption present in the church hierarchy.

 

[speculawyer]

No, he is using evidence from the past to make predictions about the future. If you look at a man's words or actions, they can give you a good guess at how they will behave in the future. So if one leader is prone to making statements that are not supported by an abundance of historical evidence and others that run counter to mountains of historical evidence, then it would probably be wise not to accept his words at face-value.

Oh, OK . . . then there is nothing to worry about since Amedinejad says he is not building nukes, so there is nothing to worry about. Zing!

And we shouldn't listen to Bush since he lied (or was at least totally wrong) about WMDs. And he lied about Iraq & Al-Qeada connections.

Anyway, the guy said he talk to knesset members . . . so? Why should their word be trusted?

 

[speculawyer]

Christians don't share some hive mind, alright? Just because Jack Thompson is a Christian doesn't mean I (or any other Christians) have to agree with him when he says something.

A fact, mind you, that I am profoundly grateful for.

I totally agree.

But it is still funny . . . because it shows even divisions among the right-wing Christian branches. (I don't think a left-wing Christian branch would allow violent M-rated Halo to be used for youth events, so I'm assuming most of these churches using Halo could be categorized in the right-wing camp.)

 

[Square2005]

Awesome idea!
This should've been tried years ago.

 

[speculawyer]

:lol
yes he did.

Do you speak Farsi? I doubt it. Unless you do, you are now defending something it is impossible for you to really know for sure.

But that is pretty much the basis of all arguments with religious people.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Oh, OK . . . then there is nothing to worry about since Amedinejad says he is not building nukes, so there is nothing to worry about. Zing!

And we shouldn't listen to Bush since he lied (or was at least totally wrong) about WMDs. And he lied about Iraq & Al-Qeada connections.

Anyway, the guy said he talk to knesset members . . . so? Why should their word be trusted?

its not the members of the israeli governenment that should be trusted or not. that wasn't the debate, but rather if the president of iran has enough balls in his convictions considering his words "israel must be wiped off the world map" and "God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism"

a legit american security threat with iran having nuclear capabilities in 2 or 3 years time.i do believe, that was my point to begin with. i feel like im going in circles. oy.

 

[godhandiscen]

5 pages and no Master Chief/Jesus Camp gif. GAF fails.

 

[bj00rn]

This thread is actually orders of magnitude more disturbing than the topic itself.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

Halo shouldn't even be M-rated. You're shooting purple aliens with blue blood, there's very little graphic violence. The fact that Halo 3, Gears of War and Crackdown have the same rating is just dumb. Two are pretty tame, one is pretty violent.

 

[Shig]

We played plenty of Contra in the Catholic summer/after-school program I went to as a kid. Nobody seemed to think twice about it.

I guess there's some credence to the assertion that Halo's an M-rated game... but it's a soft, soft M. When you really think about it, it's patently ridiculous that Halo gets the same rating as Gears of War or GTA.

Sure it's not a very christian-themed game and all, but for many of these youth groups, there's always been some activities that are set up just for personal fun for their members. I don't see how ski trips are a christian activity, but hey, plenty of these groups arrange ski trips. If they went to help soup kitchens each and every week, they probably wouldn't find themselves with many members. Maybe that's a bit unchristlike, but hey. Ideals ain't reality, they want to keep their members many and satiated then they have to appeal to the "I just wanna have fun" factor sometimes.

 

[Helzown]

I used to go to a youth group at a church, and we played Halo on the projector. It wasn't used to attract and convert, but the youth leader was like a 22 year old hardcore gamer. We spend a lot of time with Halo, Halo 2, Socom and he played a lot of WOW and Star Wars Galaxies lol )

 

[Square2005]

So if they'd have picked Wii Sports/Play instead would everyone be okay with that?
What game (or system) should they have chosen?
Smash Bros.?