Support NeoGAF

[Gamernyc78]

Given the reach of consoles, I think it's a shame governments don't subsidize educational VR game development. The potential is huge because it can be so much more immersive than normal gaming (language learning, virtual museums, technical / medical learning, etc).

This is very true. The applications can be far reaching, educational and endless.

 

[sonomamashine]

I'm surprised people are still analyzing Lisa's words about RDNA. I can't see any reason why RDNA is not part of the PS5 but yet only with the next-gen Xbox. It doesn't make any sense since they are working together for years. RDNA is part of the whole Navi architecture. Next-gen RDNA just means "next-gen over GCN",

you are waaaaay off .

I'd rather be surprised than have wild expectations and get disappointed.

you'r the only reasonable guy in here, what's wrong with the others ?

I won't be disappointed, I don't care for next gen specs and I couldn't care any less for RT.
All I want is decent spec PSVR2! Anything above 8-9tf is more than enough to power that, when we look at the VR we got from 1.8tf.

I'm definitely more excited for PSvr2 than anything. To me this has been the game changer and most innovative thing to come to consoles in generations. I laugh when you see some articles talking about the next Gen consoles are more of the same, wtf does VR come into play? It doesn't exist?

good luck getting blind

 

[Gamernyc78]

you are waaaaay off .

you'r the only reasonable guy in here, what's wrong with the others ?


good luck getting blind

I dont need luck, I'm 40 and og psvr been fine for me, On top of tht I'm not one of those ppl tht get VR sickness either.

 

[ResilientBanana]

you'r the only reasonable guy in here, what's wrong with the others ?

I'm just trying to be realistic. So many generations have crazy rumors floating about and insane expectations which got pretty interesting during the mid-gen refresh. Hell, even all the E3 2019 game predictions and rumors outside of one or two were completely false.

 

[sonomamashine]

I'm just trying to be realistic. So many generations have crazy rumors floating about and insane expectations which got pretty interesting during the mid-gen refresh. Hell, even all the E3 2019 game predictions and rumors outside of one or two were completely false.

what people don't get is, yes its good to be optimistic in life, i do wanna dream big i do wanna play 14TF games yaaaay yiiiiihaaaaaaaaa .
NOT in consoles, it WONT happen ! we are talking about consoles for mainstream, multi billion company looking for profit, they want to SELL, they hire high educated guys to think how to price sh!t to keep sales momentum, remember 599 us $ ? never again .
some will say, well they will sell at a loss, nobody sells for a loss .
the specs you guys dreaming of cost way over 449$

 

[bitbydeath]

what people don't get is, yes its good to be optimistic in life, i do wanna dream big i do wanna play 14TF games yaaaay yiiiiihaaaaaaaaa .
NOT in consoles, it WONT happen ! we are talking about consoles for mainstream, multi billion company looking for profit, they want to SELL, they hire high educated guys to think how to price sh!t to keep sales momentum, remember 599 us $ ? never again .
some will say, well they will sell at a loss, nobody sells for a loss .
the specs you guys dreaming of cost way over 449$

You don’t need to worry about price as these businesses don’t pay what we pay since they buy in bulk.

PS3 for example had blu-ray which just that alone at the time was around $1200.

Cell being brand new tech wouldn’t have been cheap either.

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

what people don't get is, yes its good to be optimistic in life, i do wanna dream big i do wanna play 14TF games yaaaay yiiiiihaaaaaaaaa .
NOT in consoles, it WONT happen ! we are talking about consoles for mainstream, multi billion company looking for profit, they want to SELL, they hire high educated guys to think how to price sh!t to keep sales momentum, remember 599 us $ ? never again .
some will say, well they will sell at a loss, nobody sells for a loss .
the specs you guys dreaming of cost way over 449$

Look at it this way.

Gaming is a multi billion dollar industry.

Go big or go home.

If you don't, you can bet that your competition will.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I'm just trying to be realistic. So many generations have crazy rumors floating about and insane expectations which got pretty interesting during the mid-gen refresh. Hell, even all the E3 2019 game predictions and rumors outside of one or two were completely false.

Im keeping my Xbox Expectations at 6.5 TF with Kinect 3.0 included for $499. There is no way I can be disappointed.

 

[sonomamashine]

You don’t need to worry about price as these businesses don’t pay what we pay since they buy in bulk.

PS3 for example had blu-ray which just that alone at the time was around $1200.

Cell being brand new tech wouldn’t have been cheap either.

lol of course in bulk, how much you think 8 core ryzen cpu cost if it wasent in bulk, more than 200$ so of course we speaking high quantity (millions of units contract)

 

[sonomamashine]

Look at it this way.

Gaming is a multi billion dollar industry.

Go big or go home.

If you don't, you can bet that your competition will.

im trying to think about this, at the office planing, yoshida in charge listening "ok guys, what do you have for me", staff1 "we gonna go big", staff2 "yeah let's do it, for the players", staff3 "we love gamers let's give them what they want", others "yh, lets go, its game time BABYYYY"
yoshida pick the phone " mochi mochi, TYRONE san, it's getting out of hand"
TYRONE " i'm on my way to see somebody's relative "

 

[sonomamashine]

double post error

 

[TLZ]

This article is posting the info from a week ago. I have a hard time believing PS5 is only 4x better than PS4 OG. So PS5 is only going to be "about 7-8 TF"?

I think someone here said that's the PS4 pro and not the PS4. That's when I screamed 16.8tf lol. Of course it won't be. Or will it?

I was thinking, maybe Sony went off the shelf with current gen because of what happened with all the money lost with PS3 cell and wanted to play it safe with PS4 to recoup and come back on track again. And it actually worked for them.

So now they have the money, profits and guts to try go big again properly this time, as in no crazy cell stuff, just work something nice out with AMD that will surely cost more and lose money with every sale in the first couple years, but easily shaven off with new subscriptions and existing ones from PS4 fanbase and PS4s still selling a ton, plus all digital sales.

They're in a much better situation this time than they were in 2013.

 

[SonGoku]

Zen 2 (3rd Gen)using the 7nm+ EUV process.

There isn't, im talking about custom chips (next gen console soc)
It does say custom zen 2 for both of them after all, its not worth porting zen2 to 7nm+ for minimal gains considering they already made zen 3 for 7nm+

there would be unannounced architectural changes between Zen 2 and Zen 3

They are, all im saying is they are not reinventing the wheel architecture wise to the point it will make porting zen 2 to 7nm+ cost prohibitive, certainly less effort than porting rdna2 features to rdna1

You are right, i am being very optimistic about 7nm+ but its also what brings the most gains on a short period of time, ask yourself why would they skip it in their intern
al plans years ago when next gen started development?

 

[bitbydeath]

lol of course in bulk, how much you think 8 core ryzen cpu cost if it wasent in bulk, more than 200$ so of course we speaking high quantity (millions of units contract)

Which means they get it a lot cheaper than consumer pricing.

 

[sonomamashine]

Which means they get it a lot cheaper than consumer pricing.

isnt that what i said, twice

 

[bitbydeath]

isnt that what i said, twice

Wasn’t it you who said this?

some will say, well they will sell at a loss, nobody sells for a loss .
the specs you guys dreaming of cost way over 449$

 

[ResilientBanana]

There isn't, im talking about custom chips (next gen console soc)
It does say custom zen 2 for both of them after all, its not worth porting zen2 to 7nm+ for minimal gains considering they already made zen 3 for 7nm+

They are, all im saying is they are not reinventing the wheel architecture wise to the point it will make porting zen 2 to 7nm+ cost prohibitive, certainly less effort than porting rdna2 features to rdna1

You are right, i am being very optimistic about 7nm+ but its also what brings the most gains on a short period of time, ask yourself why would they skip it in their intern
al plans years ago when next gen started development?

As 7nm development was going on it probably wasn’t a sure thing at the time. But who knows, you might be right. but other than higher yields I don’t see how it would help the consoles since they’re pretty much spec locked at this point with the CPU/GPU.

 

[joshwaan]

I the only one excited more about the CPU Zen 2 then GPU?

What do we know so far about that Zen 2 3.2GHZ 8 cores 12 HW threads 32MB L3 cache?
AI is going be so much better in games, smoother experiences provided dev's don't push the GPU to moon every time. I just hope
we don't get a to cut down Zen 2 my only hope.

 

[sonomamashine]

Wasn’t it you who said this?

if you go back few pages, you will understand, you didn't get it .

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

im trying to think about this, at the office planing, yoshida in charge listening "ok guys, what do you have for me", staff1 "we gonna go big", staff2 "yeah let's do it, for the players", staff3 "we love gamers let's give them what they want", others "yh, lets go, its game time BABYYYY"
yoshida pick the phone " mochi mochi, TYRONE san, it's getting out of hand"
TYRONE " i'm on my way to see somebody's relative "

Alternatively...

Phil: "Look, you drones I'm sorry but somehow this shit has got to work in the cloud too because of our glorious leader's services dream. Find a way to mitigate our costs somehow"
Staff: "Sir, yes, Sir!"

#4ThePlayers
vs
#4TheDataCenters

 

[LordOfChaos]

Wonder if this will be left in. Usually consoles have favored steady state performance, but it might be workable if dev kits are based around base speeds, and any opportunistic higher clocking is just a bonus and not to be expected by developers.




The PCB leak, thought of as one of the most plausible so far, had mentioned the VRMs were overbuilt...

 

[SonGoku]

But Samsung is the one with the technology. Neither Microsoft, Sony or AMD would have control over that.

Both tsmc and Samsung 7nm euv entering mass production mid 2019, AMD is a partner with both of them with access to roadmaps

Why wouldn't they use that same process on the Desktop or Mobile processors?

Why would they simply gimp there current CPU and GPU lineups?

Because zen2 is launching this year not in 2020, its not worth porting their current lineup to 7nm+ for next year when they already have zen3 and rdna2

As 7nm development was going on it probably wasn’t a sure thing at the time. But who knows, you might be right. but other than higher yields I don’t see how it would help the consoles since they’re pretty much spec locked at this point with the CPU/GPU.

I admitted this before, they may be going standard/pro 7nm for unknown factors
But in the fairness of balanced discussion i like to consider the merits of console chips being designed with 7nm euv in mind, timelines fit: 2018 silicon lock (process spec is finalized), mid 2019 node enters mass production, Q4 2020 console launch

yep, why would AMD use EUV, they just released standard 7nm they would tank their own fresh product,

Exactly

 

[SonGoku]

Wonder if this will be left in. Usually consoles have favored steady state performance, but it might be workable if dev kits are based around base speeds, and any opportunistic higher clocking is just a bonus and not to be expected by developers.

Might be part of the SSD secret sauce, these temporal clock boosts would speed up read-times/decompressing.

 

[Ellery]

you guys still at 14.2 TFLOPs in here?

 

[SonGoku]

you guys still at 14.2 TFLOPs in here?

Only for a a best case scenario all stars align type deal
Not really banking on it, but its out there

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

What are the expectations for Scarlett/Anaconda these days?

Ree's spreadsheet says the best case is 10.7, although the last update was 24th June.

Is that the current expectation?

 

[SonGoku]

AMD 7nm chips for next-generation PlayStation to be ready in 3Q20

AMD's 7nm CPU and GPU are expected to be adopted by Sony in its next-generation PlayStation and the processors are estimated to be ready in the third quarter of 2020 for the games console's expected release in the second half of 2020, according to industry sources.

www.digitimes.com

I know this was already posted but it got me thinking... If this leak is right PS5 is launching march/april 2021 at the earliest. Chips entering production Q3 2020 wont be ready in enough volume for a console launch Q4 2020

What are the expectations for Scarlett/Anaconda these days?

Depends on who you asking

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

Depends on who you asking

Someone who knows their onions, not a run of the mill astroturfer.

 

[SonGoku]

Someone who knows their onions, not a run of the mill astroturfer.

My expectation is the same for both consoles
7nm DUV

• 9-10TF - MAYBE 11TF with some state of the art cooling

7nm EUV

• 11-13TF - MAYBE 14.2TF with a big die ~390mm2

 

[xPikYx]

You reasonably expect a game console is going to release with more power than nVidia's $1100 2080 TI for $399-$499?

I expect a console that over the years drives the technological progress of the 3d games, and below 14tf this would be disappointing. A 10tf console at 399$ for me will be less appealing than a 14tf console at 599$, but everyone is different, people like playing on consoles at fake 4k@30fps at medium/high details as well as I like playing 1080p@60fps at ultra details raytraced with an rtx 2080, it's a preference. If a next-generation leap was garanteed by a 800$ console it would be more worth the effort. When ps4 was presented I was not that excited, pc at that time were already offering much more, the current generation for me was born old already but if they pushed more..

 

[ResilientBanana]

I expect a console that over the years drives the technological progress of the 3d games, and below 14tf this would be disappointing. A 10tf console at 399$ for me will be less appealing than a 14tf console at 599$, but everyone is different, people like playing on consoles at fake 4k@30fps at medium/high details as well as I like playing 1080p@60fps at ultra details raytraced with an rtx 2080, it's a preference. If a next-generation leap was garanteed by a 800$ console it would be more worth the effort. When ps4 was presented I was not that excited, pc at that time were already offering much more, the current generation for me was born old already but if they pushed more..

Looking back at the previous 7 generations, you might just want to become a PC gamer. Console makers need to sell to the majority in order to sell the games, if not they will lose the market to mobile. Parents would buy a phone or iPad before they bought an $800 console or they would just pick the most convenient streaming service.

 

[stetiger]

My expectation is the same for both consoles
7nm DUV

• 9-10TF - MAYBE 11TF with some state of the art cooling

7nm EUV

• 11-13TF - MAYBE 14.2TF with a big die ~390mm2

Good to see you back to earth. I think there is a good chance we might get 10.7TFlops+ just to position themselves better against stadia. Otherwise google will have a field day with the teraflop number even though they are less powerful

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Oh yeah, forgot about Stadia's 10.7 tf.

If Google's gadget has almost 11 tf, there is not way Scarlett and PS5 have less.

 

[SonGoku]

I think there is a good chance we might get 10.7TFlops+

on 7nm DUV ?

 

[stetiger]

on 7nm DUV ?

yeah, that is totally something I could see them try to attain with that 1.8GHz speed

 

[SonGoku]

yeah, that is totally something I could see them try to attain with that 1.8GHz speed

It would certainly be on the upper limit of whats possible on 7nm DUV
But anywhere close to 11TF is beast anyways (RTX 2080 tier). I'd be happy with that

60CU total - 54CU enabled (3SEs)
390-400mm2 on 320bit bus
380-390mm2 on 256bit bus

• 54CUs @ 1400Mhz = 9.67TF
• 54CUs @ 1500Mhz = 10.36TF
• 54CUs @ 1550Mhz = 10.7TF
• 54CUs @ 1592Mhz = 11TF

 

[R600]

256 bit bus for 11TF Navi + Zen2? Doubt it. 320bit bus min.

 

[R600]

Truth is, Gonzalo leak tells me not to expect alot of CUs because GPU clock is just way to high.

I do think Gonzalo is legit, therefore I have no reason to expect 1.5GHZ 56CUs, when it clearly says - 1.8GHZ

 

[Mass Shift]

Truth is, Gonzalo leak tells me not to expect alot of CUs because GPU clock is just way to high.

I do think Gonzalo is legit, therefore I have no reason to expect 1.5GHZ 56CUs, when it clearly says - 1.8GHZ

Yeah Gonzalo could be the PS5 right there. It's funny but as someone already said this is starting to feel a little like Durango all over again. Where the earliest leak was the most accurate and already put it all out there for us to see. It was just a matter of people finally accepting it.

That being said, I'm still holding out for custom touches to the silicon by Sony and AMD.

 

[xool]

Yeah Gonzalo could be the PS5 right there. It's funny but as someone already said this is starting to feel a little like Durango all over again. Where the earliest leak was the most accurate and already put it all out there for us to see. It was just a matter of people finally accepting it.

It's worth looking back at what was known 1 year before release on both :

Search for "orbis"

All the leaks you need

vgleaks.com

Search for "durango"

All the leaks you need

vgleaks.com

Not only were they spot on in Jan 2013 (except the 4>8GB upgrade) the level of architectural detail and accuracy is astounding ..

[Exception is this mother all pastebin shitposts with an "insider" claiming the XONE will ship with a 360 SoC built in: vgleaks.com/rumor-durango-leaks-analyzed-by-anonymous-source-pastebin-doc/ ]

We're nowehere near the level of detail reached by Feb 2013 right now

 

[R600]

Yeah Gonzalo could be the PS5 right there. It's funny but as someone already said this is starting to feel a little like Durango all over again. Where the earliest leak was the most accurate and already put it all out there for us to see. It was just a matter of people finally accepting it.

That being said, I'm still holding out for custom touches to the silicon by Sony and AMD.

Yea it feels a bit like Durango, but mind you if Gonzalo leak is true, PS5 should fit in between 5700 and 5700XT, which are new gen AMD cards that perform 40% better per flop vs Vega.

Durango was horribly underpowered back then. It had 1.2TF when best AMD had was 4TF, same gen, not like Durango had next gen GPU not comparable to current AMD offering.

So...while it might be disappointing to some people, its still ~12TF Vega + gobs of GDDR6 and top shelf Zen2 CPU (+ SSD).

 

[bitbydeath]

Yeah Gonzalo could be the PS5 right there. It's funny but as someone already said this is starting to feel a little like Durango all over again. Where the earliest leak was the most accurate and already put it all out there for us to see. It was just a matter of people finally accepting it.

That being said, I'm still holding out for custom touches to the silicon by Sony and AMD.

It could also be the next Xbox.
The code name is very similar to Xbox’s Durango.

 

[R600]

It could also be the next Xbox.
The code name is very similar to Xbox’s Durango.

Except its actual codename fits Sony perfectly, and not MS. I already posted screenshots of actual dies with these codenames.

Additionally, Ariel is not Xbox and Gonzalo is directly tied to Ariel, so I just cannot see how can this be Xbox?

 

[bitbydeath]

Except its actual codename fits Sony perfectly, and not MS. I already posted screenshots of actual dies with these codenames.

Additionally, Ariel is not Xbox and Gonzalo is directly tied to Ariel, so I just cannot see how can this be Xbox?

I don’t think it does. The code names don’t sound like something Sony would use.

 

[sonomamashine]

What are the expectations for Scarlett/Anaconda these days?

Ree's spreadsheet says the best case is 10.7, although the last update was 24th June.

Is that the current expectation?

Sony & MS will be more powerful than Google stadia (10,7Tf) thats for sure, they need to show dominance, it's strategic .

It would certainly be on the upper limit of whats possible on 7nm DUV
But anywhere close to 11TF is beast anyways (RTX 2080 tier). I'd be happy with that

60CU total - 54CU enabled (3SEs)
390-400mm2 on 320bit bus
380-390mm2 on 256bit bus

• 54CUs @ 1400Mhz = 9.67TF
• 54CUs @ 1500Mhz = 10.36TF
• 54CUs @ 1550Mhz = 10.7TF
• 54CUs @ 1592Mhz = 11TF

what happened to 1.8GHz gonzalo ? (best leaked contender)
maybe :

* 48CUs @ 1800Mhz = 11.1 Tf
* 52CUs @ 1800Mhz = 12 Tf
i have a feeling that MS is going to be more powerful than PS5, they have to, they failed this gen and sony exclusives dominate, so thinking :
* 56CUs @ 1800Mhz = 12.9 Tf
* 60CUs @ 1800Mhz = 13.8 Tf
all of this GCN of course, just to be clear on that

 

[Mass Shift]

We're nowehere near the level of detail reached by Feb 2013 right now

It's still very early. But yes I recall the insane amount of accuracy to the VGLeaks Durango architecture diagrams. Right down to the move engines.

So...while it might be disappointing to some people, its still ~12TF Vega + gobs of GDDR6 and top shelf Zen2 CPU (+ SSD).

No, Gonzalo sounds like great hardware. I was only pointing out that we might already have everything there is to know.

I'd still love for Cerny to walk out that stage and go "High Bandwidth Memory 3!" That would be like a drop the mic moment.

I don’t think it does. The code names don’t sound like something Sony would use.

We'll see.

 

[TeamGhobad]

somebody said MS fucked up the SoC (again) because they added FP64 on it for cloud stuff. anyone knows what this is? any merit to it?

 

[TBiddy]

somebody said MS fucked up the SoC (again) because they added FP64 on it for cloud stuff. anyone knows what this is? any merit to it?

Who said that and where?

 

[FranXico]

somebody said MS fucked up the SoC (again) because they added FP64 on it for cloud stuff. anyone knows what this is? any merit to it?

Even if that were the case, the impact would not be as high as that from the SDRAM plus Kinect taking up resources this gen...

 

[TeamGhobad]

Who said that and where?

some dude on reddit it was a while ago. he said Phil wanted to sell the nexbox at a loss but was shutdown and now the nexbox doubles as a server blade has a ton of cloud stuff FP64 and other stuff.