Ascend
Member
And how does the focus of the PS5 to have no load screen somehow prove that it is not the focus of the XSX....?No Load Screens
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Clintizzle
Lord of Edge.
I can't wait till Sony show the PS5 and its a basic looking box.
20+ threads about how the design is revolutionary and most balanced.
20+ threads about how the design is revolutionary and most balanced.
Ascend
Member
You know what I find the funniest, that this post of mine was ignored;
Feel free to shoot it down. I'm open to it, and I'll be waiting.
Feel free to shoot it down. I'm open to it, and I'll be waiting.
MasterCornholio
Member
Did Microsoft try to sell the elimination of load times?
Remember they won't market anything that they can't achieve.
bitbydeath
Member
They would have stated as such, either directly or indirectly via the hardware details.
Ascend
Member
Did they market anything regarding their next gen games? Because pretty much everything was about backwards compatibility and making older games run better. Does that mean the XSX will not have next gen games?
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3liteDragon
Member
Am I the only one who thinks both of these Bloomberg articles from February and the most recent one are controlled leaks from Sony? 
And btw, are we really getting something from Sony tomorrow or everyone's just hoping we get something?
And btw, are we really getting something from Sony tomorrow or everyone's just hoping we get something?
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ethomaz
Banned
Each CU has one intersection unit (ray-tracing) that runs at the clock of the GPU... so yes higher clocks = faster.
The difference between Xbox and PS5 is around 18%.
It is actually together with Texture Engine.
Below the diagram of a RDNA CU... the intersection unit is in the yellow part.
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Hawking Radiation
Member
a
PS5 is out in the open and on minds of the general public ever since 'Road to PS5'. Then you have Sony showing off DualSense controller just a couple days ago. Everyone knows its coming.
Last of Us 1 released 4 months after PS4's reveal in June 2013 and a year later it was released on PS4.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest Sony is holding back the PS5 so Ghost of Tushima and Last of Us 2 can release on PS4 first before they start showing anything PS5 related. That's just doesn't make any sense.
Also remember that PS4 is still going to the primary source of Playstation's revenue even when PS5 is out in the wild because the new consoles are likely to be very expensive (all but confirmed so because of current world events). The same situation with Xbox. It's why you have Xbox planning to spread all their games across all Xbox devices, new and old. Sony is taking the same approach to have these cross gen games on both PS4 and PS5 so they cater to new and existing users.
There are other reasons Sony is being mum on PS5 but this nonsense about trying to safeguard PS4 sales is definitely not it.
That's not true at all.
PS5 is out in the open and on minds of the general public ever since 'Road to PS5'. Then you have Sony showing off DualSense controller just a couple days ago. Everyone knows its coming.
Last of Us 1 released 4 months after PS4's reveal in June 2013 and a year later it was released on PS4.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest Sony is holding back the PS5 so Ghost of Tushima and Last of Us 2 can release on PS4 first before they start showing anything PS5 related. That's just doesn't make any sense.
Also remember that PS4 is still going to the primary source of Playstation's revenue even when PS5 is out in the wild because the new consoles are likely to be very expensive (all but confirmed so because of current world events). The same situation with Xbox. It's why you have Xbox planning to spread all their games across all Xbox devices, new and old. Sony is taking the same approach to have these cross gen games on both PS4 and PS5 so they cater to new and existing users.
There are other reasons Sony is being mum on PS5 but this nonsense about trying to safeguard PS4 sales is definitely not it.
Fake
Member
I mean, sell hardware is one thing. Dev/Sony stop releasing new games on PS3 at some period of time. Sony stiil sell those hardwares, but they don't getting new sofware.
Making PR of PS5 don't need to be agressive as this year still an amazing year for PS4. Is safety to say 2020 looking for the best year of PS4, at least in software departament.
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bitbydeath
Member
They spoke about hardware using DF as the outlet.
As for next-gen games, no. Not for the first couple of years. Xbox games will come to the entire family.
Ascend
Member
There you go. That being said, the games that will be released on both the XBO consoles and the XSX consoled will most likely get a 'gimped' version on the XSX compared to what they could have done with it. That is definitely true. The same thing will happen on the PS4 vs PS5 though, although most likely to a lesser degree. That still doesn't mean that the lack of loading screens is impossible on the XSX. My last post all the way on the bottom of the previous page, has an overview as to why I think the XSX SSD speed, despite being slower than the PS5, is still fast enough to achieve this.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
People really seem to forget why PS4 is still MASSIVE in 2020, and why it's ridiculously dominant:
We are talking about one of them being one of the best games in gaming history to have a sequel on PS4, and one of the most promising games GoT as well. Both being to shape as GOTY contenders.
It's natural to talk about hopeful tomorrow if your current day is bad.
We are talking about one of them being one of the best games in gaming history to have a sequel on PS4, and one of the most promising games GoT as well. Both being to shape as GOTY contenders.
It's natural to talk about hopeful tomorrow if your current day is bad.
lepermessiah
Member
All this talk of compression, I'm feeling compressed now, "Hi honey how was your day?" " "Fakn LOSSY, MAKE ME A LOSSLESS STEAK WAMAN, SALT, PEPPER, LOD."
bitbydeath
Member
It doesn't just come down to SSD speeds to achieve this otherwise PC would have achieved it already. Sony have implemented a ton of custom hardware to streamline games to load while playing instead of loading prior to playing.
They're on different journeys. MS would be metoo'ing if it were the case but it is not.
Ascend
Member
No they wouldn't. Because PC games are still programmed with HDDs in mind, the lowest common denominator. The same argument that the XSX will be hampered by games needing to keep the Xbox One in mind is applicable to PC games. You would need to have a CPU that can handle what the custom hardware is doing in the consoles. But at this point, most CPU cores are idling anyway if you have anything more than a 4C/8T CPU.
I still see no reason why the XSX is incapable of this. Time will tell.
I'm not interested in going in discussion circles.
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bitbydeath
Member
Metroiddarks
Member
The Last of Us 2 maybe is the only title which can sell more than Spiderman in PS4 (regarding exclusives) so yes I am agree with you.
For example I bought for my Xbox one the special edition of Ori and the will of the wisps and that's all for my xbox one I don't have
plans to buy another exclusive title, I prefer to play the new Halo in the new console or even in PC.
In other hand for PS5 this year I have P5R, TLOU2, Ghost of Tsushima, FF VII for this year.
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Hawking Radiation
Member
Mate, there were games still being released for PS3 even after PS4 was officially unveiled at PlayStation Meeting in 2013.
My initial post was around Sony's silence on PS5 and its damn well got nothing to do with PS4 sales and its accompanying software releases. History has proven this time and time again.
Sony doesn't need to be aggressive with PS5 'marketing' but there is a huge difference to the way they are handling PS5's reveal compared to their other consoles. I'd like to think Covid19 has something to do with it.
Ascend
Member
*sigh* Here you go;
With Xbox Series X--the official name of Project Scarlett--Microsoft is aiming to eliminate load times.
And
"So we've invested in MVME SSDs and we're also giving developers a lot of new capabilities on top of that to try to virtually eliminate load times."
And
"You know, whether that's a level-based game and I'm going from level one to level two, or if you think about a massive open-world game and actually want to fast-travel or teleport from one end of the world to the other, I shouldn't have to [have] this loading experience [that takes] me out of the immersion, and that's all possible with some of the investments we've made on the I/O side."
Microsoft Wants Xbox Series X To "Virtually Eliminate Load Times"
Xbox Series X, formerly Project Scarlett, is far more powerful than Xbox One, offering faster load times and decreasing overall latency.
www.gamespot.com
Now what's your next argument?
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Hawking Radiation
Member
Lol no. Please, stop right there.
Fake
Member
And? PS3 is not in the same position as PS4. Last gen was a hole different story. They can't hype PS5 until PS4 software still in place. When I say 'software' I mean games that have potential to push hardware.
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Metroiddarks
Member
bro I am not rich I have to make choices for which games play .... but now I can bought thousand of barrels of oil.
bitbydeath
Member
*sigh* Here you go;
With Xbox Series X--the official name of Project Scarlett--Microsoft is aiming to eliminate load times.
And
"So we've invested in MVME SSDs and we're also giving developers a lot of new capabilities on top of that to try to virtually eliminate load times."
And
"You know, whether that's a level-based game and I'm going from level one to level two, or if you think about a massive open-world game and actually want to fast-travel or teleport from one end of the world to the other, I shouldn't have to [have] this loading experience [that takes] me out of the immersion, and that's all possible with some of the investments we've made on the I/O side."
Microsoft Wants Xbox Series X To "Virtually Eliminate Load Times"
Xbox Series X, formerly Project Scarlett, is far more powerful than Xbox One, offering faster load times and decreasing overall latency.
Now what's your next argument?
The article states-
Virtually eliminate and 'less' waiting goes against your argument of no load times and supports what I said about reducing load times not removing them completely.
Ascend
Member
Oh so we're down the semantics and selective quoting... Completely ignoring these;
Microsoft is aiming to eliminate load times.
I shouldn't have to [have] this loading experience [that takes] me out of the immersion, and that's all possible with some of the investments we've made on the I/O side."
I guess we're done here.
Shmunter
Member
So scales with TF. Assumed as much, thanks.Each CU has one intersection unit (ray-tracing) that runs at the clock of the GPU... so yes higher clocks = faster.
The difference between Xbox and PS5 is around 18%.
It is actually together with Texture Engine.
Below the diagram of a RDNA CU... the intersection unit is in the yellow part.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
his sources fucked him over. he shared beers with those guys.
well. If the ps5 is twice as fast and has sub second load times then Xbox is probably at 2 seconds max.
Hawking Radiation
Member
What is there to hype when companies around the world are heavily affected by a rampant disease. Are you that unaware of current situation?
Also like i told you before, history in this industry has proven otherwise with your claim that Sony is waiting on releasing PS4 games first before openly talking about PS5.
As for the bolded: You do know that there will be cross gen games on both PS4 and PS5 right? So that immediately invalidates your argument of Sony waiting to release PS4 software first. Serious question mate, are you new to gaming?
Sinthor
Gold Member
Reading the back & forth about the SSD...
No kidding! I just can't either with all the mental masturbation and fiction writing going on. I just want to see more hard info and game trailers to see what we'll be getting and to start to put all this rampant fictional rationalizing and dreaming to rest!
bitbydeath
Member
It's your article if you didn't want me to quote it disproving your logic then you shouldn't have posted it.
The first part of what you quoted came from Gamespot not MS.
The second part is from MS but doesn't state there is no loading experience, just a long loading experience.
Ascend
Member
If the PS5 is 0.27 seconds as advertised, and is twice as fast as the XSX, that means the XSX would be 0.54 seconds. Still fast enough.
Time will prove you wrong. And I bet they say 'virtually', because everything requires at least some loading on initial start-up. That doesn't mean you're going to have to load during the game.
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According to this, it will "virtually eliminate load times". I think you're underestimating what the system will be able to do once we see what XVA can do!
Shmunter
Member
I haven't checked your streaming calculations, but even then, you're comparing something akin to a video stream. If the ssd were sufficient to saturate the GPU, you wouldn't even need ram.
Heck you can even stream 60fps 4K video off the internet (compressed), GPU via power of the cloud?
Think about it, a single texture can be a full 4K image, how many hundreds of textures can make up a single rendered scene, not to mention all other objects.
bitbydeath
Member
You're only looking at the SSD and excluding all the other bottlenecks removals Sony performed to achieve 0 load screens.
anothertech
Member
Some new renders I saw today! I'd bite 
RT performance scales with CUs not clockspeed. That's according to multiple sources including Digital Foundry.
Ascend
Member
The second statement is true. The first one sort of isn't though.
Yeah. Compressed is the key here. And it's lossy compression, not lossless, which can reduce the size by a LOT. Even lossless compression can reduce the size of an image by 3x. If we talk about the latest video codecs, we're actually achieving 1000x frame size reduction. That is not a typo.
Indeed. But I took the worst case scenario for the sizes, which are bitmaps, and will not be compressed. A compressed PNG file can easily reduce the size by 3x for certain textures.
Basically, for most textures you would need multiple 4K maps, like an opacity map, roughness map, height map etc. So technically, you need to load 4 or 5 4K images per texture, to do the rendering of the final image. In reality, you will rarely need truly 4K textures though, because no texture will take the full screen, and stuff that's far away can easily be textured with low res maps. But that's what the RAM is for; keeping the stuff that is needed there to allow loading of something else that is required.
The initial loading will be the slowest. For the RAM alone, if you have 8-9GB/s on the PS5, the initial loading will take about 2 seconds. For the XSX with 4.8GB/s, it would be around 3 and a half seconds... Not a big deal.
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Dude! You're seriously grasping at straws. You've been saying a lot of half truths.
1.) Yes the PS5 eliminates bottlenecks to increase the SSD's throughput. So does the XSX and we now know it has a DMA controller as well that they haven't discussed yet.
2.) The article qualifies and says Microsoft is aiming to eliminate load times.
The PS5 SSD being twice as fast doesn't mean the XSX won't be able to eliminate load times. Both systems can push above 4GB/s into RAM. They can both eliminate load times.
It's impressive what Sony did with the PS5. But everything indicates that the XSX will be able to eliminate load times once the Velocity architecture is done.
You could start games instantly on both systems by pushing 4GB instantly into RAM. Eliminate load times in both machines.
Ascend
Member
Indeed. I assumed in my post that you require to fill the full 16GB before starting the game. This isn't true for multiple reasons.
16GB is not fully available for the games, so it will be less, meaning the loading can take place faster. For the XSX it's known to be 2.5GB for the OS. and if you use all the RAM, you have 13.5GB available.
Whatever has already been loaded into RAM can be enough to display something before the full RAM capacity is full.
So yeah. I fully agree with you.
JLB
Banned
Theres no such thing as "completely eliminating" load times, you know that right?
What you said makes sense, some games could do it like it is currently and fill up RAM for the next say 5 seconds of gameplay. Here they could use a single initial load screen for a second or two. Otherwise they could just pump what is going to be used for just that second of gameplay.
At 8-9GB/s this is very possible on the PS5. The XSX can definitely use SFS to achieve the same effect at lower speeds by only sending textures being used in that instance. So no wastage. But even without SFS, they can definitely eliminate load times by just sending 4-6GB/s.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
Data Transfer Rate of PS5's SSD: 5.5GB/s = 5500 MB/s = 5500MB/1000ms = 5.5MB/ms
Size of 4K Frame with 32Bit Color Depth = 33.2MB
Time that it takes the PS5's I/O system to transfer a full 4K frame's worth of data to RAM: 33.2MB/(5.5MB/ms) = 6.036ms
Time that the PS5's GPU has to read the data from RAM and render it while maintaining a render rate of 60 frames per second:
1 second = 1000ms
1000ms/60 frames = 16.67ms
16.67ms - 6.036ms = 10.634ms
-----------------------------------
Data Transfer Rate of XSX's SSD: 2.4GB/s = 2400MB/s = 2400MB/1000ms = 2.4MB/ms
Size of 4K Frame with 32Bit Color Depth = 33.2MB
Time that it takes the XSX's I/O system to transfer a full 4K frame's worth of data to RAM: 33.2MB/(2.4MB/ms) = 13.83ms
Time that the XSX's GPU has to read the data from RAM and render it while maintaining a render rate of 60 frames per second:
1 second = 1000ms
1000ms/60 frames = 16.67ms
16.67ms - 13.83ms = 2.84ms
FeiRR
Banned
I see that PS4 sells over 6 times faster than Xbox. This is while we have a weaker Xbox base model (S) and a weaker Pro model (compared to X) - so the most pessimistic scenario for Playstation (XSX turns out to be more efficient at multiplats and Lockhart becomes reality). You should also take note that the situation at hand is after any months of Xbox Game Pass on ridiculously cheap promotion (1 EUR for three months), which should have helped to move a lot of units, right?
Based on those facts, I think we could make a quite informed prediction for the next generation: Playstation is going to sell at least twice or even more consoles than Xbox and is going to dominate the next generation. I see no reason to believe otherwise.
Now prove me wrong with facts to the contrary. Let's help Spencer keep his job in those difficult post-pandemic times.
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Ascend
Member
That is assuming that the reading and rendering of the data cannot start until after the full data package has been loaded. Obviously without compression as well.
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Post real verified sources.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
I'll do calculations based on compressed data shortly.
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FeiRR
Banned
Not only that. First of all, you cannot measure render buffer output with input data. An in-engine scene can use multiple textures, one texture for multiple objects but also none (objects with shaders only). Then you have game logic, player input data, many other factors. In other words: you can't tell if the I/O throughput is enough in theoretical terms. This can be done only on case-to-case basis, in particular applications of a given game in development.
And now for something completely different, have you all seen this?
I don't think anybody here is claiming that Xbox will outsell PS5. It's just not possible because
A: Japanese market is so faithful to Sony, that they will buy giant turd if it will have PS logo on it (like PS3 at the start of previous gen)
B: PS brand is just too strong in vast majority of European countries
But on the other hand. As big screw up as Xbox One was from the beginning, PS4 only managed to barely outsold it in UK/US so I think, that Microsoft have a very big chance to outsold it in that markets and that is good start. Of course price will be most important thing but with Lockhart, Microsoft will cover both performance and low price aspect of next-gen.
If PS5 and XsX will be 499$ and Lockhart will be 299$ i can see Microsoft outselling PS5 in US and UK and making a dent to Sony stronghold in other European countries. So...1,4:1 for PS5 in terms of worldwide sales. Japan will take care of that.
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