CyberPanda
Banned
CyberPanda
Thank you for your help making the thread and pushing my lazy ass to do it. Coulnt have done it without you.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
- Status
Fake
Member
The big jump will be the CPU aspect and they keeping talking about cloud/ai/etc... dunno if this could really piss them. Besides, Navi still GCN.
Don't believe in that too, but who knows.
CyberPanda
Banned
How do you calculate a teraFLOP?
The basic formula for computing teraFLOPS for a GPU is:
(# of parallel GPU processing cores multiplied by peak clock speed in MHz multiplied by two) divided by 1,000,000
The number two in the formula stems from the fact that some GPU instructions can deliver two operations per cycle, and since teraFLOP is a measure of a GPU's maximum graphical potential, we use that metric.
Let's see how we can use that formula to calculate the teraFLOPS in the Xbox One. The system's integrated graphics has 768 parallel processing cores. The GPU's peak clock speed is 853MHz. When we multiply 768 by 853 and then again by two, and then divide that number by 1,000,000, we get 1.31 teraFLOPS.
LordOfChaos
Member
About software based RT
That's what I was thinking with the Metro dev interview, that they surely have dev kits by now and may have tipped the hand
Tech Interview: Metro Exodus, ray tracing and the 4A Engine's open world upgrades
Remember the days when key technological innovations in gaming debuted on PC? The rise of multi-platform development an…
www.eurogamer.net
I hope it's hardware accelerated since RTX can still do a lot more rays than the next fastest card running it in pure compute, but that kinda sounded like there's just enough bandwidth and compute to apply a useful amount of the effect, just like the Vega card already did.
What are the rest of you even talking about?
tiddys * ops per cycle(2 hands) * cycle speed
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
Stream processors * 2 * Clock.
Last edited:
wordslaughter
Banned
As well as die size we also have to consider GPU clocks, power draw and heat.
For clocks, we just don't know how high Navi will clock at 7nm. But we should very SOON with the launch of PC Navi at Computex. Q3 at the latest.
Higher clocks means more watts means higher temps. But also higher Tflops.
So much of the Tflops argument comes down to the single question of - How high will Navi clock? If it takes 300wats to reach 1.7Ghz @ 7nm, then we can forget about a 12+ Tflop console.
If Navi is a bit of a miracle and clocks 2.1Ghz without melting... then higher Tflops becomes a real possibility. Maybe 1.8Ghz in a console is not so crazy at that point.
Am I confident it will clock high? Not really. When overclocked the Vega 64 could reach ~1.7Ghz ( can't count on it to stay that high though ) and the Radeon VII could reach ~1.9Ghz @ 7nm..... using 300+watts.... and it's $700. I did use the word miracle above for a reason.
Navi does not need to perform the same as the Radeon VII though. We still don't know.
After we know Navi's PC GPU clock speeds. We can start to guesstimate. How much power and what kind of cooling solution will Sony be willing to use? How many CU's can be afforded in a console?
PC Navi will be very revealing as to narrowing down the Tflop range for next gen consoles.
For clocks, we just don't know how high Navi will clock at 7nm. But we should very SOON with the launch of PC Navi at Computex. Q3 at the latest.
Higher clocks means more watts means higher temps. But also higher Tflops.
So much of the Tflops argument comes down to the single question of - How high will Navi clock? If it takes 300wats to reach 1.7Ghz @ 7nm, then we can forget about a 12+ Tflop console.
If Navi is a bit of a miracle and clocks 2.1Ghz without melting... then higher Tflops becomes a real possibility. Maybe 1.8Ghz in a console is not so crazy at that point.
Am I confident it will clock high? Not really. When overclocked the Vega 64 could reach ~1.7Ghz ( can't count on it to stay that high though ) and the Radeon VII could reach ~1.9Ghz @ 7nm..... using 300+watts.... and it's $700. I did use the word miracle above for a reason.
Navi does not need to perform the same as the Radeon VII though. We still don't know.
After we know Navi's PC GPU clock speeds. We can start to guesstimate. How much power and what kind of cooling solution will Sony be willing to use? How many CU's can be afforded in a console?
PC Navi will be very revealing as to narrowing down the Tflop range for next gen consoles.
wordslaughter
Banned
stream processors x 2 x clock then divided by 1,000,000 for Tflops.
irrefleumas
Member
Nice thread! No need multiple thread. Nice fusion, Goku!
wordslaughter
Banned
Great jobUpdated tiddy flop chart
This is a very clear chart that makes the Tflop relationship between CU's and clock speed easy to understand, for even the layman.
It also neatly lays out the "realm of possibility" for next gen consoles.
SonGoku
Member
Me too but the quote you posted seems to imply otherwise that next gen might just brute force rt without dedicated hw
Hopefully the GPU arch is customized to be as efficient as possible doing rt calculations without specialized hw/cores. Dev seems to be guessing as well
If anything brings more credibility to them 12.9 tyddies and 800 GB/s bandwidth
bitbydeath
Member
Updated tiddy flop chart
Hmmm, so either 56 or 60 CU’s is about where we’d expect right?
That would rule out 14TF unless they have some truly magical secret sauce involved.
Evilms
Banned
For those who are wondering how to calculate the memory bandwidth, it is necessary to know the bus width and then multiply it by the actual effective frequency.
Simple example of the GTX 1080 which has a 256-bit bus and a effective frequency of 10008 MHz in GDDR5X, which gives us:
Bandwidth = (Memory Bus / 8) * effective frequency
256 bit / 8 = 32
32 x 10008 MHz = 320256 MB/s or 320.3 GB/s
Simple example of the GTX 1080 which has a 256-bit bus and a effective frequency of 10008 MHz in GDDR5X, which gives us:
Bandwidth = (Memory Bus / 8) * effective frequency
256 bit / 8 = 32
32 x 10008 MHz = 320256 MB/s or 320.3 GB/s
Last edited:
Slings and Arrows
Banned
Who will have the most expensive console though?
I can see Microsoft getting in the mindset of "gamers want powahh" in the same way they went about "gamers want media" with their Tv Tv Tv xbox one presentation.
XBOX 2, the most POWERFUL CONSOLE EVAHHHHHH £1000
I can see Microsoft getting in the mindset of "gamers want powahh" in the same way they went about "gamers want media" with their Tv Tv Tv xbox one presentation.
XBOX 2, the most POWERFUL CONSOLE EVAHHHHHH £1000
SonGoku
Member
Indeed or miraculously Navi clocks higher than 1.8Ghz (14.2TF at 1850MHz)
On the flipside 13TF seems doable on a 60 CU card at 1.7GHz or 12.5TF at 1628GHz.
Looking at AdoredTV updated chart the latter could be achieved at 150W by fine tuning the clocks on Navi 20 (RX 3090), especially considering MS ported a 180W card to the X.
I doubt any will go above $500
Either they are both $500 (PS5/Snek) or PS5 is $400 and Snek $500
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
Even if one could get more power both will be displaying 4K+ which won’t be easy to tell a difference.
Both will likely have Ray Tracing. Since Sonys announced it already MS won’t hold it back.
Same goes for SSD.
The major differences will come down to exclusives I think.
Dontero
Banned
Should be very similar or same price.
The only reason why Xbox One was expensive was whole TV stuff.
Without that garbage console should be cheaper than PS4
SonGoku
Member
bitbydeath
I think many devs will opt for 4k approximations using CB, temporal reconstruction and even DLSS if they have AI bits (which Snek almost certainly will)
But i agree, difference will be minimal 20% at most, 10-15% realistically.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Never minds specs..... just imagine if Sony and MS started next gen doing Crossplay!
Stuart360
Member
And Kinect of course. I remember reading that it cost like $80 to manufacture. Freaking Kinect, what a pos.
DemonCleaner
Member
haven't read yet properly. but wanted to share with you guys, before i forget:
Performance of different GCN iterations under heavy geometry load
i really hope navi is doing something new to lessen this GCN bottleneck (this weakness was exploited by nvidia field engineers in many pc games over the past decade and has done it's fair share to the nvidia/amd flop discrepancy)
CyberPanda
Banned
Next gen gets me this excited:
xool
Member
Good work!
I think the pastebin leak should be in - whether real of fake I think it's the mother of all subsequent "13/14TF" leaks (Dec2018 ?)
pastebin.com
I think the pastebin leak should be in - whether real of fake I think it's the mother of all subsequent "13/14TF" leaks (Dec2018 ?)
Ps5 2020 infos - Pastebin.com
Last edited:
KlickKlack
Banned
lol.. its nothing but a summary from all the speculations on the internet. not one new info. fake fake fake...Good work!
I think the pastebin leak should be in - whether real of fake I think it's the mother of all subsequent "13/14TF" leaks (Dec2018 ?)
Ps5 2020 infos - Pastebin.com
Sony task force in panic mode?
xool
Member
And yet they predicts Sony would not be at E3, long before that news, plus so much else officially confirmed - people must be really good at picking their speculation.?
bitbydeath
Member
Rutheniccookie broke that news actually before that PasteBin is dated.
www.neogaf.com
RuthenicCookie who broke news of Sony not going to E3 says PS5 is a Monster (Details inside)
PS experience returning, Most devs already have dev kits for ps5 ( Spoiler: It’s a monster), Sony prepping hard for ps5 and one of the reason for no e3 next year because they blew all their load this year and got nothing new to show next year (They want to show new stuff at psx) 4K/60 stable...
xool
Member
ok - Runthenic Cookie looks legit and earlier :
A lot of other details there too..
They knew about Anthem too :
Last edited:
Darius87
Member
there's fair chance that ps5 comes with improved geometry engines and then we might see more then 64CU's in ps5 most likely with lower clocks then speculated 1,8ghz, also improved bandwidth compression would help for performance.
SonGoku
Member
Will add to the OPRutheniccookie broke that news actually before that PasteBin is dated.
RuthenicCookie who broke news of Sony not going to E3 says PS5 is a Monster (Details inside)
PS experience returning, Most devs already have dev kits for ps5 ( Spoiler: It’s a monster), Sony prepping hard for ps5 and one of the reason for no e3 next year because they blew all their load this year and got nothing new to show next year (They want to show new stuff at psx) 4K/60 stable...
DAMN the words $500 and monster make me drool in anticipation.
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
As long as it has at least 11TF, I'd rather they spread the resources around and improve the other aspects more than this tunnel vision people seem have for more teraflops of fp32.
Give us higher CPU clocks, go for extra secret sawce etc.
Give us higher CPU clocks, go for extra secret sawce etc.
ANIMAL1975
Member
TheBestRumor.jpg
farmerboy
Member
ethomaz
Banned
There is no way to PS5 has more than 64CUs.
To be fair to get a good yield they will probably choose to disable some CUs so they can use some defective chips... I think at least 4 CUs will be disabled for that.
60 or 56 CUs will be the mostly like config.
Give some time that I will try to make math to estimated the possible PS5 die size.
Last edited:
thelastword
Banned
I've seen this rumor before, a few weeks back, and I must say, it's the only leak I believe is real.........Good work!
I think the pastebin leak should be in - whether real of fake I think it's the mother of all subsequent "13/14TF" leaks (Dec2018 ?)
Ps5 2020 infos - Pastebin.com
I think specs will improve though, 32 GDDR6 (Games) + 4-8GB DDR4 (OS) seems like it will make it into final kit........They could then fuse GDDR6 with DDR4 as an extended ram allocation if the OS does not use all of the DDR4.....Would be great for devs...
Insane Metal
Member
11-12TF #believe
Darius87
Member
with 7nm they could fit more then 64CU if supposedly they aiming more/less for ps4 die size, i know above 64 CU it's not likely gonna happen but that would be great solution if current setup doesn't pass thermals with performance they need,
Insane Metal
Member
GCN is limited to 64 CUs. So more than that is not happening.
Edit: the guys at the other place are absolutely insane, or trolling really hard. PS5 at 8 or 9TF and XBox going all the way to 14 and even 16TF.
Edit: the guys at the other place are absolutely insane, or trolling really hard. PS5 at 8 or 9TF and XBox going all the way to 14 and even 16TF.
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
They can't... GCN is hardware limited to max 64 CUs.
That is why everybody got disappointed with Navi being the same old limited GCN.
AMD needs a new Arch to break these limitations ASAP.
There are a lot of misinformation there like some guys claiming the GCN was only software limited to 64CUs when in reality it is hardware designed to max 64CUs and only anew Architecture could break that... or even some weird maths with memory speeds and bandwidth lolGCN is limited to 64 CUs. So more than that is not happening.
Edit: the guys at the other place are absolutely insane, or trolling really hard. PS5 at 8 or 9TF and XBox going all the way to 14 and even 16TF.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Not saying they will, but could a “crossfire” like setup be done on chip to theoretically take advantage of more CUs in a similar nature like running two separate cards in SLI? Or the butterfly method like the Pro?
Let’s say for the sake of argument GCN was stuck for another decade (which it shouldn’t be due to their next gen chip coming after).
Last edited:
ResilientBanana
Member
32GB GDDR6? what?
Darius87
Member
only reason why GCN is limited to 64CU is geometry engines can't take more then 64 CU's load, so increasing CU count would be waste of die space, as i said before if sony would improve geometry engines that would allow for more CU, there's no need for new arch for improving geometry engines.
ethomaz
Banned
Yes but Crossfire is not dead? I thought AMD and nVidia support for that type of tech ended due the low efficiency (you get 20-50% boost in performance with twice the hardware).
I don't think there is any way to GCN get another decade of life but if that happens then you will see each new interaction nVidia distancing from AMD in terms of performance and watt.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Idk, was just spitballing to see if they can come up with other methods on die for Pro systems and beyond.
ethomaz
Banned
Actually it is limited to 4 Shader Engine and you can have max of 16CUs per Shader Engine... Raja said in an Anandtech interview they didn't have enough time to make a GCN card with more Shader Engines works... I think that claim shows how hard is to implement over 4 Shader Engines in actual GCN (that is the limitation we are talking about).
Of course a new redesign architecture can break these imitations.
FranXico
Member
You probably are the only one who believes that leak. Either we are going to get a bit less RAM, or the PS5 will cost more than $600...
- Status