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[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Don't forget Sony Bend too. There is nothing on PC as good looking and doing as much as Days Gone. As for the use case, you'll get that when next-gen games are demoed and still running comfortably on the 2080TI.

Star Citizen? That game easily outclasses Days Gone visually imho. It's at least up there with the best-looking PS4 exclusives, too.

The truth is that consoles enjoy the privilege of working on just one standardized set of hardware and optimizing the hell out for it. And there's enough console units out there for the install base to justify the massive budgets to create those amazing graphics. Star Citizen is one of the few PC games that seems developed with high-end PC hardware in mind and optimizing for it.

I'm sure the next-gen console will have games of that visual caliber if not greater, but if we're just talking current-gen between console and PC, stuff like Star Citizen is at least up there with the best-looking PS4 titles, no contest.

 

[psorcerer]

Graphics is more of a steady common pipeline. Animation, AI, physics, etc.. could be innovative work but isn't some magical chip inside the graphics card that no other has. And we use a lot of 3rd party software libraries. Why should we reinvent math libraries that work and have been proven already? It's a waste of manpower and time.

Every bad thng in a modern lazy game developers cycle in a nutshell.

 

[psorcerer]

unnecessary (in the long run) skill sets

No. All skills that were learnt through PS3 era are necessary today. PS3 actually pushed DX12 and put a draw call problems on the map. And revealed that single-threaded game engines will not last.

 

[LordOfChaos]

No. All skills that were learnt through PS3 era are necessary today. PS3 actually pushed DX12 and put a draw call problems on the map. And revealed that single-threaded game engines will not last.

Yeah it kind of goes understated that libGCM was the first modern low level graphics API, that kicked things off for Mantle, to Vulkan/DX12/Metal.

The PS3 did have a lot of forward thinking inside it, its failings were in supporting developers in the here and now when it launched, plus the rush job GPU/split memory pool.


PS4's GNM is pretty well loved, seems to work fine. I imagine they extend that for PS5, and make the GNMX successor more in line with Vulkan, if not add Vulkan directly for easier cross platform.

 

[Fake]

Add Vulkan would be a big deal.

 

[molly14]

You should refrain from making statements from which you are clearly ignorant about. You clearly have no idea how much lead up time and development is needed to to get something to manufacturing.

Well when the specs are finally released we will see how close they areto the 2080ti

Seeing as you know it all perhaps you can enlighten the forum on what the final specs are.Many thanks.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Well when the specs are finally released we will see how close they areto the 2080ti

Seeing as you know it all perhaps you can enlighten the forum on what the final specs are.Many thanks.

Im referring to your statement about here

They don't have to build the GPU yet,they can wait till much nearer the release date,only dev kits would have them anyway.

Things like GPUs, etc are not decided on a dime and can be switched out "much nearer to release date" These things are decided and planned years in advance. That's not to say things don't evolve and things do get tweaked up to the last minute. But, it's not anywhere near as simple as simply deciding at the last minute, "oh we want more power, lets just switch the GPU from a 5700 to a 2080Ti." All of those have to go through months of tests to make sure it meets a power pudget, cooling budget, cost budget etc. About the only thing that can be realiably adjusted at the last minute is the amount of RAM and that was decided a year in advance for the PS4.

That's just the hardware side.

The software side would pose it's own set of issues not to mention the development nightmare it would create for studios who are developing to targeted specs.

 

[bitbydeath]

oh No! Not the wall of screenshots again!!!

How the hell can you judge what a game does technically with subjective screenshots????

Am I supposed to say, "wow, those screens look great! The consoles ARE superior to the PC! The PC *is* being under utilized!"

Really??

Just speak it from your heart.

 

[bitbydeath]

Star Citizen? That game easily outclasses Days Gone visually imho. It's at least up there with the best-looking PS4 exclusives, too.

The truth is that consoles enjoy the privilege of working on just one standardized set of hardware and optimizing the hell out for it. And there's enough console units out there for the install base to justify the massive budgets to create those amazing graphics. Star Citizen is one of the few PC games that seems developed with high-end PC hardware in mind and optimizing for it.

I'm sure the next-gen console will have games of that visual caliber if not greater, but if we're just talking current-gen between console and PC, stuff like Star Citizen is at least up there with the best-looking PS4 titles, no contest.

Can't say I've seen anything too good from that one. It has potential but atm is very empty looking and the characters aren't very detailed looking.

 

[JLMC469]

Come on, Star Citizen looks a gen ahead of anything released this gen .

 

[Insane Metal]

Anyone who has seen SC upclose knows it looks leaps and bounds beyond anything on current gen consoles. Artistically you can obviously challenge that, but technically there's just no question.

 

[bitbydeath]

Come on, Star Citizen looks a gen ahead of anything released this gen .

Any nice pictures that show the leap off?

 

[ZywyPL]

Oh, the only reason I tend to state 1080 TI is because of the alleged 20,000+ score on Fire Strike for the PS5's GPU. 1080 TI is around that mark.

Edit: looked up the 5700's score and that also aligns with 20,000+.

More than that - in low-level API games the 5700XT also matches 1080Ti, which again, is on the same level as 2080. Because that's what we have to look at, games like Doom/Wallenstein, Battlefield/Battlefront, Forza, Gears etc. not those DX11/pseudo-DX12 titles, which have no representation at all of how AMD's hardware actually performs on the consoles environment. And the other thing is, 5700XT is soooo fricking hot already, it's hotter than 2080TI, which is a 800mm^2 GPU, the heat is most likely the sole reason why we haven't seen anything with more than 36CUs from Navi, and I cannot imagine Sony/MS being able to put something bigger into an APU. Speaking of which, an 8C 7nm Ryzen CPU takes the same die size as 8C 14nm Jaguar, and quite accidentally (?) 7nm 5700/XT also take the same die space as Polaris found in X1X for example, so again, makes perfect sense.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

Awesome if true. SOCOM was a great franchise and truly deserves to be revived.

 

[llien]

AMD Updates Roadmaps to Lock RDNA2 and Zen 3 onto 7nm+, with 2020 Launch Window

AMD updated its technology roadmaps to reflect a 2020 launch window for its upcoming CPU and graphics architectures, "Zen 3" and RDNA2. The two will be based on 7 nm+ , which is AMD-speak for the 7 nanometer EUV silicon fabrication process at TSMC, that promises a significant 20 percent increase...

www.techpowerup.com

So, 7nm EUV is a given.

 

[Fake]

7nm+ hey

 

[llien]

Kek, appears to be a september article. Sorry for that.

 

[henau212]

AMD Updates Roadmaps to Lock RDNA2 and Zen 3 onto 7nm+, with 2020 Launch Window

AMD updated its technology roadmaps to reflect a 2020 launch window for its upcoming CPU and graphics architectures, "Zen 3" and RDNA2. The two will be based on 7 nm+ , which is AMD-speak for the 7 nanometer EUV silicon fabrication process at TSMC, that promises a significant 20 percent increase...

www.techpowerup.com

So, 7nm EUV is a given.

I would not count on that. We are officially not getting Zen3, which is design complete, but are hoping to get RDNA2, which is not design complete? Does not really make sense in my eyes. My bet is still on something like RDNA1.5.

I could also see them going 7nm, maybe 7nmp, and not 7nm EUV. They seem to be pushing out devkits in a reasonable number, which might be one reason. Also cost and capacity might be another one since Apple etc. will be moving to more advanced processes.

 

[Fake]

Probably someone already posted, but OP is missing anw.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Probably someone already posted, but OP is missing anw.

Yeah SonGoku hasn't been online since Sept 25, longer than a plausible vacation. Anyone know him outside of here?

Might be nothing but I always hate when online people disappear with no explanation,always makes you wonder!

 

[Fake]

Yeah SonGoku hasn't been online since Sept 25, longer than a plausible vacation. Anyone know him outside of here?

Might be nothing but I always hate when online people disappear with no explanation,always makes you wonder!

Gonna check with mods a possibility of thread heritage for when OP get missing. Lets just hope SonGoku back after some real big news.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Hey everyone, dial it back on the fanboy wars, thank you.



If you are here in the console speculation thread just to flex about the PC platform, then move along.

I apologize for the snide remark. It wasn't cool of me and I regret saying it because I *do* want people to take me seriously. I have a lot of knowledge and experience to add to any graphics/hardware discussion and I don't want that to be jaded by showing emotional rebuttals. Sometimes I get frustrated with fans that make repeated attempts at trying to make their platform of choice (99% of the time it's the Sony fans) look superior to other platforms because of it's exclusives and this time I let it get the better of me. Playing on a level of 'PC elitist or console warring' is not my intention.

Having said that I will, however, say that the PC is in fact, an agnostic hardware platform and is therefore feasible to use as a basis of argument when speculating about the future console hardware (and the present). It is a neutral open ended box of hardware components that when connected can give a very robust play ground for research and development of new techniques (i.e. Ray-tracing, PBR, etc..). But we simply can't let subjective opinions enter the discussion with posted screenshots. It's there where, in my opinion, the discussion has veered off-topic and has gotten out of control. If we can all agree to stick to facts and/or explicit justification of why an exclusive has more advanced programming, wizardry, etc.. or why the PC hardware is under-utilized, I think these discussions would be more beneficial to the readers.

 

[Negotiator]

I don't know why people keep bringing in unrealistic targets. 1080Ti consumes close to 300W on its own.

1080 Ti uses 16nm FinFET, it's an early 2017 GPU. How is 300W relevant in a 7nm APU released in late 2020?

I remember back in 2005 people saying RSX cannot be equal to 2 x GeForce 6800 Ultra.

Die shrinks exist for a reason.

ps3 development had to include learning a bunch of new and unnecessary (in the long run) skill sets.

Not true.

Amiga Blitter, PS2 EE VUs, Cell SPUs, unified shaders/GPGPU have something in common.

It's not a coincidence that Demoscene studios tend to excel in these platforms:

How Resogun uses the PS4’s architecture to create ‘chaos’

Your source for the latest in video games, sci-fi, fantasy, tabletop games, anime, horror, books, and comics.

www.polygon.com

AMD's project Fusion started back in 2006 and was heavily influenced by Cell.

Sony got a Cell successor in a more streamlined x86/GCN format (semi-custom AMD APU).

PS4's GNM is pretty well loved, seems to work fine. I imagine they extend that for PS5, and make the GNMX successor more in line with Vulkan, if not add Vulkan directly for easier cross platform.

GNMX is a high-level, DX11-esque API:

How The Crew was ported to PlayStation 4

Ubisoft Reflections tells the story of how it brought the new Ivory Tower driving game to PS4.

www.eurogamer.net

Vulkan is more akin to GNM. They don't need yet another low-level API.

I would not count on that. We are officially not getting Zen3, which is design complete, but are hoping to get RDNA2, which is not design complete? Does not really make sense in my eyes. My bet is still on something like RDNA1.5.

I could also see them going 7nm, maybe 7nmp, and not 7nm EUV. They seem to be pushing out devkits in a reasonable number, which might be one reason. Also cost and capacity might be another one since Apple etc. will be moving to more advanced processes.

Apple will use 5nm EUV next year. Always one step ahead.

explicit justification of why an exclusive has more advanced programming, wizardry, etc.. or why the PC hardware is under-utilized, I think these discussions would be more beneficial to the readers.

Here's an example from ND:



PCs tend to use the CPU for those algos.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I have no idea why everything with VFX Veteran has to become a PC vs console thing. Devs should be the ones getting the credit, not the console makers or GPU makers.

If I may be allowed to address that comment.

It's not that I try to make it a PC vs. console (Sony) thing when concerning technical comparisons. It's that I use the PC hardware as a basis for a hardware target to compare games with. The PC does have the higher end hardware. It's not bragging. It is what it is.

When the console fans say "Hey look at God of War! It's the most amazing looking game I've ever seen of *any* platform!" fuels a console war. Why? Because it's a game only on the PS and it's a company that (as of now) will only make the game on the PS platform. It's a purely subjective sentence with no merit other than screenshots that showcase - subjective artwork. There is never any real substance to the subjective claims other than screenshots. I'm actually using the PC to prove that in an objective analysis, the said game is a ways off from being the best graphically representation of hardware on a technical level. The PC uses far more sophisticated and costly samples, algorithms, etc.. than the consoles, so it shouldn't create a "war" for me to say, "But GoW is missing a lot of SSS approximation, pre-baked low res ambient occlusion, not enough shadow casting lights, or it's texture filtering at 4x still leaves a lot to be desired on texture detail...etc". To me, there is no reason why introducing a platform that gives the cleanest render to justify this exclusive as NOT being the best looking on a technical level couldn't be said.

 

[Kazekage1981]

I think the level of high performance with hi fidelity graphics, sound, new gameplay immersion through haptic feed back, faster network connection (wifi6) is going to blow peoples expectations away.

2020 is the year of video games, PC and mobile:
AMD: zen2/zen3, RDNA/RDNA2
Intel: 10nm Icelake, New Intel GPU's by Raja Koduri
NVIDIA: Ampere 7nm
Samsung: Galaxy S11, Note 11
Apple: iPhone 12
Microsoft: Scarlett
Sony: PS5
Starting of wifi6 and 5G

and a crap ton of other things. You guys are going to be in hi-tech heaven!

 

[VFXVeteran]

I have no idea why everything with VFX Veteran has to become a PC vs console thing. Devs should be the ones getting the credit, not the console makers or GPU makers.

If I may be allowed to address that comment.

It's not that I try to make it a PC vs. console (Sony) thing when concerning technical comparisons. It's that I use the PC hardware as a basis for a hardware target to compare games with. The PC does have the higher end hardware. It's not bragging. It is what it is.

It's the comments like "Hey look at God of War! It's the most amazing looking game I've ever seen of *any* platform!" that fuels a console war. Why? Because it's a game only on the PS and it's a company that (as of now) will only make the game on the PS platform. It's a purely subjective sentence with no merit other than screenshots that showcase - subjective artwork. There is never any real substance to the claims other than screenshots. I'm actually using the PC to prove that in an objective analysis, said game is a "ways off" from being the best graphical representation of hardware on a technical level. The PC uses far more sophisticated and costly samples, algorithms, etc.. than the consoles, so introducing it into discussion shouldn't create a "war".

 

[pawel86ck]

Gonna check with mods a possibility of thread heritage for when OP get missing. Lets just hope SonGoku back after some real big news.

There's no need for thread heritage. We only need a new king, someone who is trustworthy and who will lead us into double digit wars with comprehensive manner and dedication like SonGoku once did. SlimySnake has knowledge, but the problem is he rarely post here and therefore maybe lack combat experience. So we need bigger and more experienced lion, someone who is on the battlefield with us from the the beginning.

Maybe we should vote, that's democratic decision after all

We should choose from:
1) Negotiator
2) Negotiator
3) Negotiator

To me it looks like Negotiator is the right man for the job. Enemy is strong as ever, CrustyBritches and R600 will not sleep until double team will give up, so we need a new king ASAP!

 

[VFXVeteran]

I have no idea why everything with VFX Veteran has to become a PC vs console thing. Devs should be the ones getting the credit, not the console makers or GPU makers.

If I may be allowed to address that comment.

It's not that I try to make it a PC vs. console (Sony) thing when concerning technical comparisons. It's that I use the PC hardware as a basis for a hardware target to compare games with. The PC does have the higher end hardware. It's not bragging. It is what it is.

It's the comments like "Hey look at God of War! It's the most amazing looking game I've ever seen of *any* platform!" that fuels a console war. Why? Because it's a game only on the PS and it's a company that (as of now) will only make the game on the PS platform. It's a purely subjective sentence with no merit other than screenshots that showcase - subjective artwork. There is never any real substance to the claims other than screenshots. I'm actually using the PC to prove that in an objective analysis, said game is a "ways off" from being the best graphical representation of hardware on a technical level. The PC uses far more sophisticated and costly samples, algorithms, etc.. than the consoles, so introducing it into discussion shouldn't create a "war".

1080 Ti uses 16nm FinFET, it's an early 2017 GPU. How is 300W relevant in a 7nm APU released in late 2020?

I remember back in 2005 people saying RSX cannot be equal to 2 x GeForce 6800 Ultra.

Die shrinks exist for a reason.


Not true.

Amiga Blitter, PS2 EE VUs, Cell SPUs, unified shaders/GPGPU have something in common.

It's not a coincidence that Demoscene studios tend to excel in these platforms:

How Resogun uses the PS4’s architecture to create ‘chaos’

Your source for the latest in video games, sci-fi, fantasy, tabletop games, anime, horror, books, and comics.

www.polygon.com

AMD's project Fusion started back in 2006 and was heavily influenced by Cell.

Sony got a Cell successor in a more streamlined x86/GCN format (semi-custom AMD APU).


GNMX is a high-level, DX11-esque API:

How The Crew was ported to PlayStation 4

Ubisoft Reflections tells the story of how it brought the new Ivory Tower driving game to PS4.

www.eurogamer.net

Vulkan is more akin to GNM. They don't need yet another low-level API.


Apple will use 5nm EUV next year. Always one step ahead.


Here's an example from ND:



PCs tend to use the CPU for those algos.

I have worked with a couple of now ND developers when they was in the film industry. Their lead programmer even put out a book on Game Programming that describes a LOT of their inhouse engine. I have written to and from many APIs before. It's not wizardry. In the end, your algorithm is limited by the hardware - period.

 

[sonomamashine]

I apologize for the snide remark. It wasn't cool of me and I regret saying it because I *do* want people to take me seriously. I have a lot of knowledge and experience to add to any graphics/hardware discussion and I don't want that to be jaded by showing emotional rebuttals. Sometimes I get frustrated with fans that make repeated attempts at trying to make their platform of choice (99% of the time it's the Sony fans) look superior to other platforms because of it's exclusives and this time I let it get the better of me. Playing on a level of 'PC elitist or console warring' is not my intention.

Having said that I will, however, say that the PC is in fact, an agnostic hardware platform and is therefore feasible to use as a basis of argument when speculating about the future console hardware (and the present). It is a neutral open ended box of hardware components that when connected can give a very robust play ground for research and development of new techniques (i.e. Ray-tracing, PBR, etc..). But we simply can't let subjective opinions enter the discussion with posted screenshots. It's there where, in my opinion, the discussion has veered off-topic and has gotten out of control. If we can all agree to stick to facts and/or explicit justification of why an exclusive has more advanced programming, wizardry, etc.. or why the PC hardware is under-utilized, I think these discussions would be more beneficial to the readers.

Of course Pc is stronger than console but that is not the topic of our discution (console ports on Pc), thats what it was about from the begening of the debate, then you took it elsewhere.

If I may be allowed to address that comment.

It's not that I try to make it a PC vs. console (Sony) thing when concerning technical comparisons. It's that I use the PC hardware as a basis for a hardware target to compare games with. The PC does have the higher end hardware. It's not bragging. It is what it is.

When the console fans say "Hey look at God of War! It's the most amazing looking game I've ever seen of *any* platform!" fuels a console war. Why? Because it's a game only on the PS and it's a company that (as of now) will only make the game on the PS platform. It's a purely subjective sentence with no merit other than screenshots that showcase - subjective artwork. There is never any real substance to the subjective claims other than screenshots. I'm actually using the PC to prove that in an objective analysis, the said game is a ways off from being the best graphically representation of hardware on a technical level. The PC uses far more sophisticated and costly samples, algorithms, etc.. than the consoles, so it shouldn't create a "war" for me to say, "But GoW is missing a lot of SSS approximation, pre-baked low res ambient occlusion, not enough shadow casting lights, or it's texture filtering at 4x still leaves a lot to be desired on texture detail...etc". To me, there is no reason why introducing a platform that gives the cleanest render to justify this exclusive as NOT being the best looking on a technical level couldn't be said.

Lol, you still dont get it, i brought GOW to the discussion to show you that even with high end GPU's devs dont customize their game to them.
GET IT ?
And thx for the triple posting.

 

[Negotiator]

I have worked with a couple of now ND developers when they was in the film industry. Their lead programmer even put out a book on Game Programming that describes a LOT of their inhouse engine. I have written to and from many APIs before. It's not wizardry. In the end, your algorithm is limited by the hardware - period.

That's a very dismissive claim.

Who are you? Post your credentials and/or ask the mods to verify you.

Demoscene-style programming is not wizardry? What the heck? ND does not use 3rd party engines like you do, they write their own custom engine from scratch, since they have the pedigree to do that:

Famous People Who Came From the Demoscene

The demoscene can be an utterly useless experience to have. Who cares about what you can do in 1024 bytes? On the other hand, the scene is like a secret society. Sceners give other sceners work opp…

chipflip.wordpress.com

Why do you confuse APIs with graphics engines? ND's engine is proprietary, you don't have access to it.

If you were a programmer, you would know that GPGPU isn't a silver bullet in PCs for so many reasons (different GPUs uarchs, PCIe latency ruining CPU/GPU coherency). Sure, you can use it for stuff like cryptomining, but that doesn't require a lot of CPU/GPU cooperation.

Consoles have a monolithic APU (basically zero CPU<->GPU latency) that focuses on CPU/GPU synergy, not raw power. That's what you don't get. The closest equivalent you have in PCs in terms of zero latency is the FPU/vector unit in the CPU and that's what they use for physics, AI pathfinding etc.

Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, open Twitter and go ask Jason Gregory himself. Tell him that what they do is bog standard x86/IBM PC programming. No need for low-level/assembly programming, just use APIs like Vulkan/Direct3D and UE4.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Of course Pc is stronger than console but that is not the topic of our discution (console ports on Pc), thats what it was about from the begening of the debate, then you took it elsewhere.


Lol, you still dont get it, i brought GOW to the discussion to show you that even with high end GPU's devs dont customize their game to them.
GET IT ?
And thx for the triple posting.

Something is wrong with the posting. Not sure why it's doing it several times with only 1 click.

sonomamashine - I'm a developer. Game engines aren't written like the old ways. I'm TELLING YOU this is a fact! If you don't believe me, then download the UE4 engine and look at it's code. ND uses their own custom engine and shader language but it's NOT MAGIC! It runs on a "linux-esque" OS and it does nothing fancier than Vulkan, DX12, or any other API. If you coded to the bare metal (which I do on my job), it is only because the hardware is so limited that we'd need manage our memory footprint, cpu cycles, threads, and other libraries. It's a pain in the ass. A dot product is a dot product. Texture lookups are texture lookups. All of the skin on Drake, etc.. was written in a shader language. There is nothing that the PS can do that makes up the performance gap of PC hardware. To add to that, you are forgetting all the other 3rd party developers that also have to run their engines on the consoles too! Give me ONE example where there is a feature in any PS4 exclusive that couldn't be done on the Xbox? Let's say.... 4k/60? Nope. How about 16x anisotropic filtering? Nope. Any volume shadows in world space? Nope. Call out the magic, please!?!

 

[bitbydeath]

Give me ONE example where there is a feature in any PS4 exclusive that couldn't be done on the Xbox? Let's say.... 4k/60? Nope. How about 16x anisotropic filtering? Nope. Any volume shadows in world space? Nope. Call out the magic, please!?!

You're mis-understanding, there is no 'magic'. It is simply talented developers coding to the metal of which cannot be done on PC because Devs want money and they won't get it by coding for a handful of people running the latest hardware. Then there is also AMD vs Nvidia, again they won't just code for one as they want to make money.

 

[Perrott]

Awesome if true. SOCOM was a great franchise and truly deserves to be revived.

Most of the sources and information mentioned in the video that sparked the thread in r/GamingLeaksAndRumors are wrong.

Guerrilla's 2nd project (that still could based on the SOCOM franchise) is going to be a multiplayer action game set within a large systemic open-world and it will come after the release of Horizon 2, as the new team just started picking up things last year. Sounds to me like a Ghost Recon Wildlands kind of game.

 

[VFXVeteran]

That's a very dismissive claim.

Who are you? Post your credentials and/or ask the mods to verify you.

This is getting personal now? Why do I need to post my credentials? If you must know, I've worked in computer graphics for the film industry for 19yrs and I now write realtime code for missile hardware (i.e. self-contained computers in missiles) for Lockheed Martin. What's your credentials?

Demoscene-style programming is not wizardry?

Bro, that's a subjective opinion you have. Wizardry to me is an equation made up by a visionary like Einstein by just imaging the real world completely differently than anyone else that describes the space/time fabric that makes up the universe. See how that works? It's all relative.

What the heck? ND does not use 3rd party engines like you do, they write their own custom engine from scratch, since they have the pedigree to do that:

Famous People Who Came From the Demoscene

The demoscene can be an utterly useless experience to have. Who cares about what you can do in 1024 bytes? On the other hand, the scene is like a secret society. Sceners give other sceners work opp…

chipflip.wordpress.com

I know that ND uses their own engine.

Why do you confuse APIs with graphics engines? ND's engine is proprietary, you don't have access to it.

Again, I know that. APIs are used to make graphics engines. I'm not confusing it. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I'm saying?

If you were a programmer, you would know that GPGPU isn't a silver bullet in PCs for so many reasons (different GPUs uarchs, PCIe latency ruining CPU/GPU coherency). Sure, you can use it for stuff like cryptomining, but that doesn't require a lot of CPU/GPU cooperation.

I've been a programmer for many many years my friend. GPGPU isn't a silver bullet and I never said it was, but using the GPU for general programming tasks isn't wizardry. We use it for calculations too (especially if we are working on large data sets). I even work on hardware-in-the-loop for realtime systems that can't afford any tricks to getting an area of a triangle, or computing a solver or integrating over a domain.

What's "wizardry" to you? Because anything that I can read and follow a pipeline behind or use a design pattern to create a pipeline no matter what the language, API, tool, etc.. isn't considered wizardry to me.

Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, open Twitter and go ask Jason Gregory himself.

Most of the time, a compiler will optimize better than a programmer. If not, there are always those special occasions where you have to write assembly code. We work as low to the metal as we have to, so I know about hardware limitations and such. It's still NOT wizardry to me. And I would have no problem talking with Jason about what I call wizardry and what he has built. I've been invited to visit that company several times in the past.

 

[pawel86ck]

Interesting leak. Personally I'm not a fan of DS4 ergonomics, so I hope to see some big improvements in DS5.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Interesting leak. Personally I'm not a fan of DS4 ergonomics, so I hope to see some big improvements in DS5.

It's fake. A guy made it as an April Fool's Joke.

Zone of Tech is shilling for money in hopes nobody noticed it's an 8 month old joke.

[FAKE] PS5 Dualshock 5 full controller leak

Alright, thought we had previously decided the prototype leak had some credibility, it appears I wasn't up to date. Removed as to not draw clicks to clickbait.

www.neogaf.com

 

[VFXVeteran]

You're mis-understanding, there is no 'magic'. It is simply talented developers coding to the metal of which cannot be done on PC because Devs want money and they won't get it by coding for a handful of people running the latest hardware. Then there is also AMD vs Nvidia, again they won't just code for one as they want to make money.

Are you saying that only ND and Santa Monica code to the metal? If they do, can you give me an example that is seen in the game? I don't want to program to the metal because it's not ideal, very repetitive, not object-oriented and most importantly not portable. If ND could produce their games on the PC (and they may in the future), they would love to. It's much much easier to get things done when you make a universal engine that can run on multiple platforms. They would still get a game running at a great framerate, implement the great tried and true PBR system (which was adopted from film btw), etc.. etc.. The real magic, imo is the artists and how they can replicate the vision of the directors.

 

[Negotiator]

This is getting personal now? Why do I need to post my credentials? If you must know, I've worked in computer graphics for the film industry for 19yrs and I now write realtime code for missile hardware (i.e. self-contained computers in missiles) for Lockheed Martin. What's your credentials?

It's not personal, you're the one who makes bold claims (not me), so you have to back them up. Nobody is going to believe an internet stranger with zero proof. Making unfounded claims isn't the best way to earn respect.

Working in the film industry (CGI offline rendering) is not the same thing as making a real-time video game with a tight rendering budget (16/33ms). Programming missiles is also irrelevant with real-time graphics.

If you're going to dismiss ND's programming efforts as run-of-the-mill coding, then better have some experience in the video game industry to back it up. That's all I'm saying.

Bro, that's a subjective opinion you have. Wizardry to me is an equation made up by a visionary like Einstein by just imaging the real world completely differently than anyone else that describes the space/time fabric that makes up the universe. See how that works? It's all relative.

It's very apparent to me you don't know what Demoscene is and why ND has such a pedigree.

What's "wizardry" to you? Because anything that I can read and follow a pipeline behind or use a design pattern to create a pipeline no matter what the language, API, tool, etc.. isn't considered wizardry to me.

Using hardware in non-mainstream ways. ND has been doing this ever since the PS1 came out.

If it's easy-peasy x86 programming, you ought to ask yourself why most 3rd party games are usually far behind 1st party ones.

Why most 3rd party devs cannot offer the same quality as Uncharted 4? PS1 also offered easy programming and yet, Crash Bandicoot was way above most devs could accomplish. See a pattern here?

If you followed the industry closely, you would have known this.

Most of the time, a compiler will optimize better than a programmer.

A compiler will optimize better than a (lazy and/or inexperienced) programmer? Sure, I'll give you that, but we're talking about top-notch programmers that love their job and they don't think it's a chore:

Taming the Jaguar: x86 Optimization at Insomniac Games

In this session the low-level optimizations in the AMD Jaguar CPU used in PS4 and XBOX ONE will be analyzed. Optimizing for the out of order Jaguar CPU is very different from previous console CPUs, and in this session a few key optimization...

www.gdcvault.com

Taming the Jaguar: x86 Optimization at Insomniac Games

In this session the low-level optimizations in the AMD Jaguar CPU used in PS4 and XBOX ONE will be analyzed. Optimizing for the out of order Jaguar CPU is very different from previous console CPUs, and in this session a few key optimization...

www.gdcvault.com

"Taming the Jaguar x86 Optimization at Insomniac Games" Notes

"Taming the Jaguar x86 Optimization at Insomniac Games" Notes - jaguar_optimization_notes.md

gist.github.com

Just another example from Insomniac... you called bare metal programming a "pain in the ass". It doesn't seem you enjoy it as much as ND/Insomniac devs do.

If not, there are always those special occasions where you have to write assembly code. We work as low to the metal as we have to, so I know about hardware limitations and such. It's still NOT wizardry to me. And I would have no problem talking with Jason about what I call wizardry and what he has built.

Of course it's not wizardry to you, since you treat it like a mundane job. Some people like it, they see it as a challenge to overcome fixed hardware specs. It's called the Demoscene philosophy and it's been a tradition since the 80s (home computer era).

I've been invited to visit that company several times in the past.

 

[pawel86ck]

It's fake. A guy made it as an April Fool's Joke.

Zone of Tech is shilling for money in hopes nobody noticed it's an 8 month old joke.

[FAKE] PS5 Dualshock 5 full controller leak

Alright, thought we had previously decided the prototype leak had some credibility, it appears I wasn't up to date. Removed as to not draw clicks to clickbait.

www.neogaf.com

If that's the case then I'm amazed anyway because it's the most realistic render I have ever seen. It looks like real object so If people can make such realistic renders then there's no way I will believe in any leaked PS5 dev unit photos until sony or some well known developer will confirm it.

 

[Fake]

There's no need for thread heritage. We only need a new king.

Right...

We should choose from:
1) Negotiator
2) Negotiator
3) Negotiator

Errr... Keep recommending him and he'll give you a kiss mate.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Playing Death Stranding really brings to light all the issues that come with a somewhat underpowered GPU. Yes, games like Days Gone, RDR2, Uncharted and Horizon look stunning but they take a lot of shortcuts to mask those issues. For example, the terrain in horizon and days gone is almost never flat. there are hills everywhere reducing the load on the GPU to effectively manage distant LODs. Horizon has fog everywhere. RDR2 is different in that regard but detail level is low overall compared to Horizon and Uncharted. Now DS on the other hand has a lot of flat areas and A LOT of geometry. rocks everywhere. and i see a lot of pop in and LOD transitions in the distance. the game looks absolutely stunning up close but it doesnt look nearly as polished as RDR2 and Horizon when you look off to the distance.

On PC, those LOD transitions and draw distance should look much better, but DS on the PS4 looks stunning with some of the best character and vehicle models, lighting, cutscenes and cinematography ever in a video game. I have no idea why everything with VFX Veteran has to become a PC vs console thing. Devs should be the ones getting the credit, not the console makers or GPU makers.

When your baseline console has a 1.8 tf Gpu and a garbage cpu, what do you expect?

Atleast with next gen consoles, the cpu will not be the bottle neck. We can expect that ram and Gpu will be the issue later in the gen due

 

[Fake]

Gpu will be probably the weak point of the next gen console unlike current gen.

 

[bitbydeath]

Are you saying that only ND and Santa Monica code to the metal? If they do, can you give me an example that is seen in the game? I don't want to program to the metal because it's not ideal, very repetitive, not object-oriented and most importantly not portable. If ND could produce their games on the PC (and they may in the future), they would love to. It's much much easier to get things done when you make a universal engine that can run on multiple platforms. They would still get a game running at a great framerate, implement the great tried and true PBR system (which was adopted from film btw), etc.. etc.. The real magic, imo is the artists and how they can replicate the vision of the directors.

Coding to the metal is when devs code for one specific hardware type and are therefore able to target it directly. Any devs that work exclusively on a single hardware type can perform this.

 

[magnumpy]

the baseline will be raised from the 1-1.8 TF GPU at least, so color me excited. ps4/xbox1 level graphics have had their time in the sun, it's well past time to move on IMO. a better CPU and faster ram and beefier GPU could really let these consoles shine, much more so than the pro models of existing generation consoles, which are held back by their base models (which the games were originally made for).

 

[VFXVeteran]

It's not personal, you're the one who makes bold claims (not me), so you have to back them up. Nobody is going to believe an internet stranger with zero proof. Making unfounded claims isn't the best way to earn respect.

I don't need to earn any respect from anyone here. I don't live for approval from other strangers (like you) on the internet that tell me I'm required to have worked at a gaming company in order to get respect in a gaming forum. Gaming companies aren't the epitome of technology whereby I must work for them (even though I do the same work) in order to be taken seriously. If I wanted to work at a gaming company I would have by now. But somehow I think I've seen all there is to see with game tech for the next 10yrs. By then it'll be a little closer to what is being done in VFX studios. I think I'll continue following John Carmack's path and stick to missiles...

---- snip ----

All of your other comments aren't worth debating over. You are right. I'm not a programmer. I have no concept of programming graphics at a low level and I don't have a clue about the "magic" that was done on the Sony console that gives it the edge over every other hardware platform. Sorry man for not seeing it..

 

[TheSpecialOne]

I see VFX Veteran has left the other site to come pollute this site with his garbage. Imagine being an old man like he is and talking so much garbage. It's both sad and yet impressive.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Coding to the metal is when devs code for one specific hardware type and are therefore able to target it directly. Any devs that work exclusively on a single hardware type can perform this.

Let's forget about what I personally know because that's tasteless and disrespectful. My challenge to you (and the other game developer that works on wizardry code) is to point out in visuals where the "coding to the metal" is being done on an exclusive game on the PS4? And furthermore, even if it was coding to the metal, what advantage did it give in terms of visuals that's not seen on any other platform in any other game? Can you show me something like ray-traced shadows? Multiple shadow-casting lights? A true 3D volume ray-marcher for volumes using implicit surfaces? How about bypassing the limited 4x anisotropic filtering that the PS hardware seems to suffer from? More tessellation? Any hair shader that renders 4 specular lobes instead of the max 2 lobes that every game has? Or how about something on the level of RDR2 run @ a true 4k resolution frame buffer?

 

[Imtjnotu]

Gpu will be probably the weak point of the next gen console unlike current gen.

If the rumors of anywhere from 10-14 are true, it won't be weak for a couple of years. But if Nvidia keeps chugging along like they are, it may be sooner.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I see VFX Veteran has left the other site to come pollute this site with his garbage. Imagine being an old man like he is and talking so much garbage. It's both sad and yet impressive.

LOL! calling me an "old man" is like saying "that gay guy" or "that atheist dude" or "that asian woman". How do these personal attacks go without checks?

 

[Imtjnotu]

LOL! calling me an "old man" is like saying "that gay guy" or "that atheist dude" or "that asian woman". How do these personal attacks go without checks?

OK boomer



Jk