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Anchovie123
Member
TSMC will reportedly have their 2nm nodes up and running in 2024. perfect time to slot in a PS5 Slim/Pro if you ask me
NewChoppa
Banned
PaintTinJr
Member
I'll be surprised if we get a Pro this time round, and I really don't think Sony wanted to do one last time either, but the lost market share from the PS3 meant the PS4 was probably less than they wanted it to be to show their software plans in their best light - especially VR - and with Xbox already talking about the generation-less plan, the Pro was a pre-emptive strike against that IMO - that worked perfectly well.
It effectively confirmed what Sony hoped, that gamers on mass weren't going to leave their true platform - the base PS4 - for either their mid-gen refresh, or the competitions, just for a little more performance or resolution - when games at Full HD were already matching the IQ - just at a lower resolution. And without a Pro being a new generation, the gain was marginal to the wider market - that had already outlaid their hardware budget for the generation. I suspect it was an additional loss to both Playstation and Xbox for the mid-gen refreshes and muddied their store presence and marketing.
As for the PS5, I think a slim is going to need two years for the costs to drop so that they can just repackage smaller with a vapour chamber and a larger SSD, and so a Pro is less likely IMO - unless they charge big money like +£750.
By the time 5nm becomes available I would expect that to be used for a PS5 Super slim - copying the PS2 and PS3 strategy with major revisions. With PSVR2 presumably in the mix too, and the PS5 being plenty good enough for that without a Pro or addon box, I don't think they'll want to go with an expensive Pro option taking up valuable shelf space in stores. I think their aim will be to get the PS5 sold quick, and drive the price down as quick as possible, so that a very cheap £200 PS5 can be bundled for £450 with PSVR2 at the earliest point and help them grow the Playstation VR market.
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James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
TSMC will reportedly have their 2nm nodes up and running in 2024. perfect time to slot in a PS5 Slim/Pro if you ask me
yup. That looks good to me.
I really wonder when the next big tech breakthrough will occur for gaming visuals though. Could be a very long ways off.
This gen we are getting pretty substantial upgrades, the next big thing would possibly be chiplets and a new gpu architecture.
I definitely think we won’t see new consoles until 2028-2030. Luckily this gen is starting with a solid foundation
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Slim will be a thing too regardless.
I think another Pro is a lock. There’s little to no downside
oldergamer
Member
Pretty lame...thats precisely why the comparison holds. both are cutscenes. I purposefully picked the fancier slipstream footage instead of the god awful Halo infinite gameplay demo to keep things nice and balanced.
I couldve been a dick and made this comparison instead.
Playstation 5 cross gen
Xbox Series X cross gen
Gears of war 5 is a better example of cross gen that has actually released.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Nvrmnd me dumb
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Rudius
Member
The biggest problem would be making a PS5 Pro powerful enough to justify it's existence. Doubling fps would not be possible, due to the CPU on PS5 already being fast, so it would come down to a faster GPU, but I think a jump from lower dinamic 4K to a higher dinamic 4K (since dinamic resolution is more common) would result in a minor improvement. Better ray-tracing would be noticeable, but that would mean more work for developers than a simple performance improvement.
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Garani
Member
They are not mutually exclusive.
PaintTinJr
Member
I don't agree that there are no downsides, because you end up with split development effort, because of the two different hardware SKUs- even just from a testing perspective, never mind SDK support, etc - costs more money for the platform holder and 3rd party developers, and gets a potential backlash when the Pro doesn't get enough bonus benefits over the base model.
The main product for sale is the base console, so with ever smaller shelf space for gaming in stores, you potentially lose sales by having just the expensive SKU left on the shelf - if you guess demand wrong - or potentially lose sales by a layperson game consumer asking for a PS5 and being spooked by the question; "Which one?".
We've probably seen it with the Xss and XsX, that the Xss has actually hampered the total sales of XsX they could have had, as XsX stock would have completely sold out instantly, instead of the Xss models.
I would also say it makes it harder to make the case for an eventual PS6 IMO, and with UE5 type visuals already intended for the base model, how would they make the case for a Pro - when they are already beyond polygons, and most of the lighting that fills the screens in UE5 will presumably be lumem accompanying foreground RT?
It will be interesting to see how they'd graphically differentiate a Pro, if it happens this time round. Visual I doubt it would be easy to discern a difference without hobbling the base PS5, and just doing the fidelity 30fps version at 60fps on a handful of applicable games doesn't sound like it would be enough for all of the PS4 Pro niche consumers.
kyliethicc
Member
If similar to PS4 Pro, it'd look like this:
PS5 Pro
$500 / $400 (digital)
November 2023 launch
~ 300 mm^2 custom SoC, TSMC 5 nm
custom Zen2/Zen4 CPU, custom RDNA2/RDNA4 GPU
8 CPUs (16 T) @ ~ 4.0 GHz max
72 CUs @ ~ 2.35 GHz max
16 GB GDDR6 @ 18 Gb/s, 576 GB/s bandwidth
1.65 TB SSD @ 5.5 GB/s raw (PCIe Gen4x4)
UHDBD drive (opt)
HDMI 3.0 Out (8K@120Hz, HDR10, VRR)
Ethernet
2x USB-C @ 10 Gb/s, 1x USB-A 2.0
2x USB-A @ 10 Gb/s
~ 400 W internal PSU, ~ 250 W draw
~ 42 x 28 x 11 cm, ~ 5.0 kg (~ 16.5 x 11 x 4.3 in, ~ 11 lb)
I just can't see that happening. Seems way too expensive, and too big and power hungry, and fairly unnecessary.
The downsides for Sony are increasing game dev cost, maybe delaying the PS6 launch, and the risk of potentially losing a lot of money.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
You want me to compare horizon, a 2021 title, to a game that launched in 2019? people would've jumped down my throat.
Doesn't matter if it got a next gen patch, so did gow and control. It doesn't make them cross gen games. Cross gen is games releasing across generations.
Halo is literally the only Xbox exclusive that qualifies.
kyliethicc
Member
And most gamers don't even care about the stuff they'd use to market it. Other than a larger SSD, a Pro would have almost no real improvement over the PS5 for most users.
Imagine if the PS4 had launched with 4K TV support via HDMI 2.0 and could run some games at 120 Hz.. and if most people were just starting to get good 2K TVs.. its not gonna happen again the same.
Pushing a new even larger console box to help sell 8K TVs in 2023? For tens of millions of console gamers? All at $500 or less, while also having such a poweful base PS5 system already? Doubt it.
kyliethicc
Member
Is it actually a new PS5 version with a separate file? Or did they just patch it?
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
How would I or anyone here know that?
edit: wait is it just a patch of the PS4 versions? lol.. I hate how this shit is getting reported... it's not a next-gen update/ps5 update if that's true
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oldergamer
Member
Bullshit excuses dude. yeah go ahead and compare horizion ( a game that hasn't released yet) to Gears 5. Gears 5 still looks better imo. Also MS has released other cross gen games. Control doesn't really scale as well as other games.
kyliethicc
Member
Like in the UI of the PS5... does it say PS5 game? Is there now 2 versions of The Division 2 to play?
There's a PS5 version of Rainbow Six Siege and Miles Morales and Call of Duty, etc. Those have separate download files for the PS5 versions.
But like God of War and Ghost of Tsushima and Rocket League do not have PS5 versions. Ghost got patched to 60 but its still labeled a PS4 game in the OS.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Some articles misled me; you are right.. the "Games media" keeps calling these things next-gen updates/versions.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
I don't think the resources are that much of an issue.
The improvements only have to be superior ray tracing and resolution. Many next-gen games will not be 4K. I suspect most won't.
XSS/XSX is a completely different issue and not really analogous. Microsoft made the mistake in thinking it was.
kyliethicc
Member
I was just wondering. I know you have a PS5 and I got the impression you had checked it out.
I assumed it still just says its a PS4 game, like God of War, etc.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Horizon FW wasn’t CGI, the graphics weren’t even that big a difference from Zero Dawn. It’s just cleaner, has an improved character model and more detail on screen which should be expected for a next-gen sequel.
i think people who say this just forget how good looking Horizon was on the PS4.
If anything the graphics will only improve from what we saw from the original trailer.
Shmunter
Member
Different situation, looked up vids of Division 2 running on PS5 prior to patch, fog intact. Post patch, fog missing. Conclusion, bug in patch.
Someone needs to try the game on PS4/pro post patch also to see if fog gone there too.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Lol you really think gears compares to horizon forbidden west? Go ahead, stop crying and make that comparison then.
Kinda surprised tbh. I thought that halo slipstream demo was considered next gen by many here. I was told as much. Gears 5s open areas are practically empty with no foliage. And they still don't look as good as forbidden west. Maybe on par with horizon 1.
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Mr Moose
Member
How fast does it load? It's kinda shit running it from external for me and i don't think its worth taking up space on the consoles internal.
I am kinda bored with it after playing for about an hour (did 2 missions and ran around), now I remember why I stopped playing it before.
Noticed slow texture load and crap shadows.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Horizon FW looked so good they even fooled me into thinking it was next gen.Horizon FW wasn’t CGI, the graphics weren’t even that big a difference from Zero Dawn. It’s just cleaner, has an improved character model and more detail on screen which should be expected for a next-gen sequel.
i think people who say this just forget how good looking Horizon was on the PS4.
If anything the graphics will only improve from what we saw from the original trailer.
It looks pixar quality to me. No idea how people can even compare this to Gears 5.
Her last gen character model was very impressive, but you can tell the new one is a massive improvement over this:
now there is a good chance they will downgrade the shit out of it to get it to run on base consoles, but right now the difference is pretty substantial. i hope they send the ps4 version out to die like CD project did with cyberpunk. sub 720p with running at 15 fps like the base x1 version of cybperpunk.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Actually the ARM chip in question has an embedded NPU (Neural Processing Unit) which to all intents and purposes is like Tensor cores. The latest Apple M1 chip boasts the same DL dedicated hardware.
DL computation almost requires considerable execution thread-level parallelism (e.g. a GPU) as well as Instruction Level Parallelism (e.g. Tensor cores). A CPU would have no chance being able to run any of these advanced DL model, even for inference, at any reasonable performance level.
It's the dedicated silicon in this new ARM chip that enables this.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
But did they even say if this was gameplay?.... I would not be surprised if this game looks slightly better than the first game and the next gen editions just get a 4K at 60 FPS boost.Horizon FW looked so good they even fooled me into thinking it was next gen.
It looks pixar quality to me. No idea how people can even compare this to Gears 5.
Her last gen character model was very impressive, but you can tell the new one is a massive improvement over this:
now there is a good chance they will downgrade the shit out of it to get it to run on base consoles, but right now the difference is pretty substantial. i hope they send the ps4 version out to die like CD project did with cyberpunk. sub 720p with running at 15 fps like the base x1 version of cybperpunk.
It’s a cross gen game so I don’t think it will really show much of a leap in graphics.
When ASML will send machines, Japan send photoresists and mask probably they will start.TSMC will reportedly have their 2nm nodes up and running in 2024. perfect time to slot in a PS5 Slim/Pro if you ask me
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TheRedRiders
Member
I have a hunch that the scalability of Playstation cross-gen exclusives will be significantly better than what we are seeing with third-parties. The Sony first party studios rarely disappoint when it comes to the stability and performance of their games.Horizon FW looked so good they even fooled me into thinking it was next gen.
It looks pixar quality to me. No idea how people can even compare this to Gears 5.
Her last gen character model was very impressive, but you can tell the new one is a massive improvement over this:
now there is a good chance they will downgrade the shit out of it to get it to run on base consoles, but right now the difference is pretty substantial. i hope they send the ps4 version out to die like CD project did with cyberpunk. sub 720p with running at 15 fps like the base x1 version of cybperpunk.
We can use the example of CDProjektRed to say it’s not easy to scale games, but I would say that the underlying cause of Cyberpunk 2077 failure was largely due to the extremely poor management of the studio which had a domino effect that caused a bunch of other problems. The studio knew very well the game was not ready upon release but it makes sense they were under a lot of pressure from publishers to release the game before Christmas. Pisses me off typing this since Witcher 3 is my all time favourite.
Rockstar is a good example of well managed third party studio, they only announce games once they are certain it’s ready, much to the annoyance of impatient fans. Rockstar's games, most notably GTA 5 and RD2 also scale extremely well across different platforms with stable performance even they graphically they are on par with Cyberpunk 2077, they invest heavily into their developers and resources, and most importantly they allow time and the results are ridiculously good.
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IllegalLemon
Member
To be frank , even rdna 2 at a base level has 4 and 8 bit integer acceleration built into the CU’s . Int 4 & 8 are ideal for doing Ml acceleration at the chip level . It doesn’t have to necessarily imply that an Ml chip is present in the hardware and there’s no way to tell if there is one when the gpu, caches & cpu take most, if not all of the space in the die, leaving little to no space whatsoever to house a dedicated chip for ml acceleration. Arm has the Ethos lineup of Npu’s for ml acceleration and their top of the line, the N78 is capable of up to 10 TOPS, which is a farcry from the number Microsoft claims for the series X. So it’s not an arm chip like blue(who apparently doesn’t do his research) likes to claim.MS did reference some sort of ML hardware capabilities during their keynote..
Not sure how relevant it is to the slide(s) noted above however..
Xbox Series X Gets Ray Tracing & Machine Learning Specs, Boasting 3-10X Performance Improvement
Microsoft did a system deep dive for the Xbox Series X architecture at the Hot Chips virtual conference, revealing some juicy tidbits.wccftech.com
From the article:
"In a separate slide titled 'Other tricks', Microsoft confirmed that machine learning inference acceleration hardware is available on the Xbox Series X for 'resolution scaling'. We already knew that the engineers added 'special hardware support' for 8-bit and 4-bit integer operations, which are often enough for inference algorithms, and the Xbox Series X is capable of 9 TOPS for 8-bit integer operations and 97 TOPS for 4-bit integer operations according to the official spec sheet.
This slide however gives us a hint as to the kind of machine learning techniques that may be actually used. The two examples given are resolution scaling, most certainly a DLSS-like technique, and 'character behavior', which seems to be related to Artificial Intelligence. Microsoft says it spent only a 'very small' area of the die on ML acceleration hardware, while it expects a 3-10x performance improvement from it, just like for ray tracing."
So where does that leave us?
Xbox either leverages the int4/8 acceleration present in the rdna 2 architecture and uses directML to further tap into the nooks and crannies it has to offer(highly likely) OR Microsoft developed their own NPU to handle ML acceleration (very unlikely).
For all we know maybe Microsoft makes use of the capabilities present in Cpu and Gpu clusters present in the apu in conjunction with directML to help push ML acceleration.
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IllegalLemon
Member
Now, Arm didn't specify under what precision those 10 TOPS fell into. Microsoft says from 9 (int 8 ) to 97 TOPS (int 4). The peak is a lot higher than what's available in the Ethos N78. So i doubt they're using any Arm NPU in their silicon.
Small edit: For anyone capable of doing the math, there's a table comparing the integer performance between rdna architectures in this link. If somebody could do the math with that info in mind and find the integer performance we'll have a rough idea of how many TOPS of integer performance the rdna 2 architecture has.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sony AI Could Change The Way Games Balance Enemy Difficulties
Sony AI Could Change The Way Games Balance Enemy Difficulties
Sony submits a patent detailing the use of AI learning to balance video game difficulty in real time, potentially changing video game fundamentals.gamerant.com
Imagine the start the beta version of that on Demon's Souls! I would hear screams from continents away.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Looking at the PSU like this, makes me wish that power bricks makes comeback, it's so tiny for how much power it outputs and everything is "shoveled together", not the mention heated by console itself : D
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yeah but other people keep bitching about it. I personally won't mind having a power brick if that means easy change and more efficiency. My PS4 Pro never changed its spot in 4 years. Also some of people having coil whine with their PS5's power supply could easily replace them.
Thirty7ven
Banned
As far as cross gen first party you should compare Miles Morales and Gears 5 Hivebusters.
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BattleScar
Member
You don't know whether or not its going to be too big or too power hungry yet.
Cost? Well semiconductor prices I feel will continue to rise as demand for them across all sectors increases, and fabs take several years to bring up so capacity won't be keeping pace with that demand.
But that just means everything will be expensive.
Superayate
Member
Yep, I think that's not a bad thing, just avoiding a big one as it was the case if the X360 hahaha
Leyasu
Banned
Agreed. I have zero problems with a power brick. Use the space in the console for cooling a SoC that is as powerful as possible
Then take the latest Halo infinite screenshots. Those are actually known to be in-game, unlike that CGI underwater cut-scene you posted.
skit_data
Member
kyliethicc
Member
Its not CGI if its in-engine. Everything ever shown of Horizon Zero Dawn matched graphically the final game.
Forbidden West on PS5 will look the same as that trailer.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Miles Morales matched and even surpassed in certain areas in the final game on PS5 when compared to the June event announce trailer!
kyliethicc
Member
Exactly. Pretty much every big AAA PS4 game Sony showed off at E3s and shows fully delivered the same graphics (or even better) in the final game.
Not always, GoW and TLOU2 both had downgrades compared to their demoes. They are still great looking games but they definitely didn't match their E3 demo exactly. There are other examples of this too, Uncharted 4 had that one teaser trailer that was far from the final game, the original TLOU demo was also quite different from retail. They are by no means the only examples of this in the industry, a lot of games don't live up to their early demoes, but Sony studios do have a history of this.
ethomaz
Banned
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
"Was"
ethomaz
Banned
Ohhhhh... a non-story.
Slow news these days.
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