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[Ovech-King]

I think the key sentence for PlayStation was said by Jim Ryan: " going from ps4 to ps5 to a pace we've never seen before"

That DOES sound like a 399$ price point and a 9.2 RDNA tflops hence 2x the Power of the Xbox One X . 4k player and revolutionary fast ssd included that would still be one hell of a deal.

On the other hand, with 12tflop RDNA I do see Microsoft going for the 499$ pricetag .

Is it February already?

 

[Agnostic2020]

I'm expecting the power difference to be 52%-48% in favor of Xbox 4. In other words, minimal. Now, if it happens to be a big difference which will be based on if/when Sony reveals the actual/final specs or if they give a quick rundown without going into detail and just say $400. If PS5 is $400, then I know that the console is much weaker because I don't see Sony taking a loss and if they do, it will be minimal.



When you say "internal SSD", you mean like Xbox One where it can't be accessed and removed/replaced? An internal SSD is obviously confirmed but I know that many gamers will most likely replace it with a bigger/faster SSD. For my PS4 Pro, I removed the 1TB HDD and replaced it with the Samsung EVO 850 1TB SSD. So again, will accessing and removing/replacing the SSD be possible? Thanks.

even if ps5 is 9.2 and x1 is 12 that’s 30% difference in gpu power

 

[sonomamashine]

It was said that MS backpedeled on this claim and said it was only the CPU. I kinda do need a link to see where MS said this. Or it was just made up.

I know what you said & what was said but i'm telling you you don't need a link to confirm that the GPU is not 5x xboxone x.

 

[Cenkolino85]

The confirmation of the PS5 Pro is all there is to say about another anemic but affordable baseline Playstation. Im firmly in the "Series X is way more powerful than PS5!" Camp.

 

[KURDISTAN YPG]

this doesnt sound good to me at all. lets hope is not true, i always preffered the playstation would be very annoying to see sony dumb down on 90 million plus customers.

THE POWER MATTTERS.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Sorry, but that doesnt amply to me tho since I always supported that to be true and wanted It to be true. I want both to be as powerfull as they can be at 499 dollars Max price

As anyone has preference and that IS Fine, If one of the two would have tô have the Edge, I want It to be ps5, but not at the level of Xbox one vs PS4 as this is not Very good for the industry.

Wow you went from fake insider to Sony Fanboy real fast.

 

[henau212]

this doesnt sound good to me at all. lets hope is not true, i always preffered the playstation would be very annoying to see sony dumb down on 90 million plus customers.

THE POWER MATTTERS.

That is your opinion, not the one of 90+ mio customers who bought the PS4. The PS4 was easy to develop, balanced and affordable. The receipe to sell 90+ mio units. The dream PS5 with 13TF, HBM and ReRam is everything but that. The 9,x TF version will already pull more power than the PS4.

Don‘t get me wrong. I would love to have both systems with more than 12TF. But I don‘t see Cerny suddenly changing their winning formula. Unless they feel really threatened by MS.. but in my opinion, MS was more successful at the end of the 360 than they are now and Sony did not chose to go with a 2+TF System back then.

 

[ZywyPL]

So both consoles seems to be in the 9.x TF RDNA realm.
The bright side of this is that $400 is possible, right ?

399$ from 2013 is already like 440$ today, so I really doubt it, unless the companies are willing to take 100-150$ loss on each unit - Sony resigned from UHD BD in the Pro because it elevated the price compared to standard BD, as seen in X1X. I don't know how the BD situation currently looks like, probably UHD drive today costs the same as standard DB back in 2013. GDDR6 on the other hand is still quite new and expensive,because the global memory shortages is a commonly known fact, which would justify all the rumors of "just" 16GB of it. And the SSD - they in fact got much cheaper in the past years, but there's still dramatic difference compared to standard HDD, even bigger vs 2.5" laptop HDD we have in current consoles.

 

[R600]

Just a reminder - 9.2TF Navi with RT and VRS + Zen2, 16-20GB of RAM and SSD is MUCH less conservative then either PS4 or Pro.

This system is pushing 200W for sure. Its more then PS3. Think about it...Only way to get to 12-13TF is to make PC boxed console that is priced at 500$ at MINIMUM.

Now...knowing Sony and their success wit PS4 and Pro, why would they do that? Even MS didnt do it, only way to do it is to go dual SKU.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Just a reminder - 9.2TF Navi with RT and VRS + Zen2, 16-20GB of RAM and SSD is MUCH less conservative then either PS4 or Pro.

This system is pushing 200W for sure. Its more then PS3. Think about it...Only way to get to 12-13TF is to make PC boxed console that is priced at 500$ at MINIMUM.

Now...knowing Sony and their success wit PS4 and Pro, why would they do that? Even MS didnt do it, only way to do it is to go dual SKU.

With this mentality the PS9 has to stay 400$ in 2045 or it won’t work. Sony will start increasing the price and won’t stick to 399 until end of time . A bit childish to assume that 400$ price won’t be broken

 

[Cenkolino85]

Its blatantly obvious why Sony is deafeningly silent these weeks. They know they done goofed up with their choice to go, yet again, with an anemic one SKU 399,- PS5. Microsoft did a progamer move by going dual SKU. Severly undercutting the PS5 price by at least 100$ with the Series S and severly outmatching its performance with the Series X. Now Sony is painfully trying to overclock their GPU, which will result in an embarrassingly loud and hot console. Like every Playstation before.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Its blatantly obvious why Sony is deafeningly silent these weeks. They know they done goofed up with their choice to go, yet again, with an anemic one SKU 399,- PS5. Microsoft did a progamer move by going dual SKU. Severly undercutting the PS5 price by at least 100$ with the Series S and severly outmatching its performance with the Series X. Now Sony is painfully trying to overclock their GPU, which will result in an embarrassingly loud and hot console. Like every Playstation before.

Before celebrating wait till feb and you ll be shocked

 

[R600]

With this mentality the PS9 has to stay 400$ in 2045 or it won’t work. Sony will start increasing the price and won’t stick to 399 until end of time . A bit childish to assume that 400$ price won’t be broken

They can still get good system for 399$ at loss this time around. Perhaps next time, they will need 499$ for it to work.

I can assure you, 12 v 9.2TF is what you are going to see.

 

[Agnostic2020]

They can still get good system for 399$ at loss this time around. Perhaps next time, they will need 499$ for it to work.

I can assure you, 12 v 9.2TF is what you are going to see.

That’s fine . I was saying about 399 price being the only price working .


If ps5 is only 29% weaker than xsx and priced between 4tf (299)and 12tf (499)console that’s a huge win for them aka the sweet spot for majority of gamers for price/ performance value

also in feb we will know more only a month and half to go.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Hang on tight guys.

PS5 and PS5 Pro is real I feel.

Oh, we *know* a PS5 pro is coming.

The question is ... is it coming day one, or day one thousand?

 

[Agnostic2020]

Oh, we *know* a PS5 pro is coming.

The question is ... is it coming day one, or day one thousand?

Pro will come 3 years later imo or whenever 5nm node is mature

 

[R600]

That’s fine . I was saying about 399 price being the only price working .


If ps5 is only 29% weaker than xsx and priced between 4tf (299)and 12tf (499)console that’s a huge win for them aka the sweet spot for majority of gamers for price/ performance value

also in feb we will know more only a month and half to go.

If 2.0GHZ clock is 100% then it will also have better pixel rate and geometry performance. Could be difference between X and Pro, only half the difference.

 

[Agnostic2020]

If 2.0GHZ clock is 100% then it will also have better pixel rate and geometry performance. Could be difference between X and Pro, only half the difference.

My only issue is that a console with 2 ghz gpu needs an expensive cooling system which makes 399 price point with all those specs a bit hard to reach unless they r taking a good loss on it in which case why not add 20$ more and few more cus sine the cooling system is advanced to begin with

 

[R600]

My only issue is that a console with 2 ghz gpu needs an expensive cooling system which makes 399 price point with all those specs a bit hard to reach unless they r taking a good loss on it in which case why not add 20$ more and few more cus?

Because adding more CUs at lower clocks will result in higher TF, but also lower pixel fill rate and geometry performance.

It also doesnt fit into WGPs from Navi and makes BC used by Sony harder. You either go with 3WGPs (60CUs) and lower clocks or 2WGPs (40CUs) and higher clocks. If both have 64ROPs then difference will be minimal.

2.0GHZ on 36CUs will bring it VERY close to XSX, even if chip is smaller. It will also require narrower bandwidth and make chip easier to bring down in size.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Because adding more CUs at lower clocks will result in higher TF, but also lower pixel fill rate and geometry performance.

It also doesnt fit into WGPs from Navi and makes BC used by Sony harder. You either go with 3WGPs (60CUs) and lower clocks or 2WGPs (40CUs) and higher clocks. If both have 64ROPs then difference will be minimal.

2.0GHZ on 36CUs will bring it VERY close to XSX, even if chip is smaller. It will also require narrower bandwidth and make chip easier to bring down in size.

One thing we know for sure is that Navi architecture performance loves high clocks .
What happened to flute btw? That had higher bandwidth and was also ps5

 

[R600]

One thing we know for sure is that Navi architecture performance loves high clocks .
What happened to flute btw? That higher bandwidth and was also ps5

Might be in final console (and I would expect it). With 256bit bus they dont have to go for 448GB/s. I think it will be 512GB/s as 60GB/s is more then enough for CPU.

XSX

56CU at 1.7GHZ 64ROPs 12TF

PS5

36CU at 2.0GHZ 64ROPs 9.2TF

XSX advantage in compute, BW
PS5 advantage in pix fillrate, geometry.

 

[farmerboy]

At this point, I just wanna see some games.

 

[cormack12]

Might be in final console (and I would expect it). With 256bit bus they dont have to go for 448GB/s. I think it will be 512GB/s as 60GB/s is more then enough for CPU.

XSX

56CU at 1.7GHZ 64ROPs 12TF

PS5

36CU at 2.0GHZ 64ROPs 9.2TF

XSX advantage in compute, BW
PS5 advantage in pix fillrate, geometry.

What would that translate to in real world? Big crowd scenes on XSX won't stutter/lag and can be more dense, while PS5 will have less LoD/mipmap switching?

 

[R600]

What would that translate to in real world? Big crowd scenes on XSX won't stutter/lag and can be more dense, while PS5 will have less LoD/mipmap switching?

It will translate into 90% same game. Pixel fillrate and geometry output is max theoretical (dependant on clock and ROPs). They will never fill it and, in case of 30-40GB/s less, it can result in certain BW heavy effects to be slightly toned down (slightly lower resolution, smoke, fire details).

Id say whoever is developing for these consoles will see them pretty much the same.

 

[semicool]

If PS5 gpu ends up being equeivalent or even slightly better (according to some insiders and myself) than the series X, TimDog/MisterXMedia should be absolutely banned forever from any gaming discussion community for being an agitator who hás nothing to add other than flames, drama, useless troll posts from many of his accounts popping up out of nowhere

I'll bet you a next gen system of choice(ps5 or Xbox Series X) that the Xbox Series X will have a higher GPU TFs number than the ps5?

 

[TLZ]

Id say whoever is developing for these consoles will see them pretty much the same.

So why create a 12tf rdna console then? Keep it at 9.2 and sell cheaper.

 

[R600]

So why create a 12tf rdna console then? Keep it at 9.2 and sell cheaper.

I think Sony went with 36CU highly clocked because it makes for very easy BC + makes chip smaller AND will result in many thinks being better.

Basically releasing PS4Pro to Xbox One X, only halving the deficit and having smaller chip and bigger advantage in pixel and geometry perf.

For MS WGPs are not important and since they have 2 SKUs they wanted PR message. Rest assured, these two will be within ~20%

 

[sinnergy]

Because it has advantages ... just like x has compared to pro..

 

[sinnergy]

But the size of the Xbox also dictates high clocks ... so something is off.. maybe only the cpu clock is high ...

 

[chemical boy]

If all this is confirmed there is no way to justify Klee.

 

[sinnergy]

If all this is confirmed there is no way to justify Klee.

Or MS played close to the heart, telling developers 10 TF, and also a dev PC at 10 TF.

 

[chemical boy]

Or MS played close to the heart, telling developers 10 TF, and also a dev PC at 10 TF.

Nor does that match what Klee said of a PS5 10% higher. With 9.2 tflops PS5 would never have been superior and would not be 2 digits. Klee would have lied in everything.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Well there is recent rumblings that the 2 SKU Xbox was off the table, and now back on the table. So at some point MS might have just been going to release a box near identical to Sony’s.

But now they have decided on the 2 SKU approach which means they can go with the more beastly Series X.

 

[chemical boy]

Klee also said that the 12tflops didn't surprise him and that he kept his data.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

That's one monster GPU for the Series X. Jesus.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

I always found it odd that when Mark Cerny was initially asked about ray tracing his immediate answer was not “the amazing graphics!!!”. It was....”well ray tracing can be used for all kinds of things, like audio!”.

 

[pawel86ck]

Has anything changed for us to think XSX isn't 12TF other than a belief that it can't be better than PS5? It seems like 2 days ago 12TF was just about confirmed

It's exactly nothing more than a belief that XSX cant be better than PS5. There are many bright people here on neogaf, but it also looks like certain individuals dont even think before they post something. For example thread about Nv claims. 2080 max-q is 6.4TF GPU, so how on earth someone could believe PS5 can be slower than that? This GCN and Navi TFLOPS comparison is also absurd if you really think about it.

The thing is people cant do the math when it comes to architecture gains, because architecture gains will not get you one number but different numbers within certain performance range. Digital Foundry polaris vs navi comparison shows gains between 25-32%, so what number people want to choose? What's also interesting Digital Foundy has proven 5700XT is not exactly 2x faster than RX580 as some people here think. 5700XT was 2x times faster only in certain scenarios, however most of the time RX5700 was around 80-90% faster, therefore 10TF Navi (not to mention 9TF as some people say) cant provide 2x xbox x results.

RDNA2 GPU's arnt even out yet, so people cant even measure anything right now. Even if you consider Phil was talking about first gen Navi performance gains assuming one number 25%, then you will get TWO different numbers because standard xbox one was using already 25% weaker architecture than xbox x (around 50% weaker in totall compared to navi architecture), so results between these two consoles dont scale the same way. You need around 6-7TF navi to match game performance of 8x xbox one consoles (that's how weak tahiti GCN was), but you need more than 10TF Navi to match 2x xbox x results in every game. So if someone belive Phil was talking about gaming performance in regards to GCN vs Navi then conclusion should be XSX can be 6-7TF RDNA1, but also 10-11TF RDNA1. Phil Spencer would suggest two different performance levels in regards to one GPU (XSX)? That's absurd and yet people still arnt sure if Phil was talking about TFLOPS metric or game performance alone.

Only TFLOPS metric can explain what Phil has said, because one number (12TF) fits perfectly. 12TF is exactly 2x more than 6TF, and exactly over 8x times 1.4TF xbox one.

So yes, based on what Phil Spencer has said people can be 100% sure he was referring to TFLOPS and conclude MS is aiming at 12TF. If however XSX will end up at 9TF then people will have every reason to call Phil Spencer a liar.

 

[TLZ]

Klee also said that the 12tflops didn't surprise him and that he kept his data.

He also said he has the specs for both and showed them to a mod I think. What do we make of that?

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

The Series X comes in a mini tower PC case, it will be 12TF RDNA.

Obviously MS are a bit quiet on it right now because they will ‘drop the bomb’ at the full reveal.

 

[longdi]

Damn i voted 12-13tf...played like a fiddle by Mark. PS5 seems disappointing if it doesn't go head to head with Xbsx

 

[xool]

He also said he has the specs for both and showed them to a mod I think. What do we make of that?

Could have been (old) dev kit specs, using GCN chips..

[He don't have a hot line to Sony, just an old developer pal he saw in JUNE]

 

[it_wasn't_me]

That's one monster GPU for the Series X. Jesus.

Then GPU in PS5 is a pure demon.

 

[R600]

He also said he has the specs for both and showed them to a mod I think. What do we make of that?

He didnt show them. He disappeared in Alaska working 12hr night shifts.

 

[Agnostic2020]

He didnt show them. He disappeared in Alaska working 12hr night shifts.

he did show them and posted that he showed and mod agreed to keep it and not reveal due to his source . I can get you the exact post if you want .

 

[it_wasn't_me]

So, back to old basics, XSX is again more powerful than PS5 even with PS5's old data. Push your narrative, Xbone fans. You can do it.

 

[Fake]

So many insiders saying shit make me miss pastebin.

 

[R600]

he did show them and posted that he showed and mod agreed to keep it and not reveal due to his source . I can get you the exact post if you want .

Its ok. I can still see, from AMD internal test source everything I need to know about th chips.

I mean, apart from TF, they are very close. Could be 25% difference in TF, but also 15-20% advantage in theoretical pixel and geometry perf for PS4 duo to same amount of ROPs but higher clocks.

Say Xbox One X was 5.5TF, instead of 6TF, and PRO BW was 300GB/s instead of 226GB/s vs X. So...very close, with bigger compute and BW for X and pixel and geometry perf from PS5.

They kinda put them selves in corner with their BC.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

This is just my opinion here based on what I'm seeing but...

Ever since Dealer (via video) and Windows Central (article) dropped the 12TF Scarlett number (now officially Xbox Series X) close to a month ago, and recently Digital Foundry hearing the same 12TF number from their own sources... The news around the internet and YouTube is about how powerful the Series X is. All the while the silence from Sony is deafening. Deafening to the point that you start wondering, why would they let this news go on if it weren't true? Why not let loose a controlled leak to try and combat it? Nothing.

And as days and weeks have gone by, we get news like what we got from the data miner. Pretty much cementing the narrative that was formed. And again, not a peep from Sony. All the while Phil Spencer is running around with confidence telling everyone they believe to have the power crown again.

Just my opinion but it's starting to become somewhat obvious at this point.

Because Sony don't bark like MS left and right.

 

[onQ123]

You're all too emotional about FLOPS lol

we will get what we can get in a console at the price that they can sell it for.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The Series X comes in a mini tower PC case, it will be 12TF RDNA.

Obviously MS are a bit quiet on it right now because they will ‘drop the bomb’ at the full reveal.

I think the XSX case is far smaller than most think. Especially to cool 12TF RDNA/3.5GHz 8c-16t CPU/16GB RAM. I think I would describe the case as a micro/nano tower. This thing has a foot print slightly bigger than a CD case laying flat and is 12 inches high (~A4 sheet of paper) going by the estimates. Less than half the volume of my small active bookshelf speakers I use with my PC.