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[IntentionalPun]

I'm pretty sure this was an April Fool's joke.. it was posted to the Unreal channel on April 1st.

UE4 can be used for films though, so not that it wasn't in engine, but not some product/engine plugin they are building lol

 

[PaintTinJr]

MasterCornholio Posting this here since the Ratchet thread was closed before I could submit my reply.


The I/O isnt bullshit but PCs can brute force anything, even Ratchet. Both Cerny and MS talked about how the decompression engines in their I/O blocks were equivalent to something crazy like 12 zen 2 cores decompressing data. Well, you can get a 24 core Zen 3 CPU right now. Hell, you can get a 48 core threadripper.

Nvidia is also bringing decompression into their 3000 series GPUs so it really doesnt matter if PCs dont have the I/O block because their GPUs are already 2x more powerful than the PS5. yes, they will take a hit but there is more than enough power here to do the heavy lifting on the GPU.

Introducing NVIDIA RTX IO: GPU-Accelerated Storage Technology For The Next Generation of Games

Load instantaneously, experience vast worlds with endless views and rich detail, and further improve gameplay by leveraging the power of GeForce RTX 30 Series graphics cards and NVIDIA RTX IO.

www.nvidia.com

Then you have extra System RAM on every single PC. The 6800xt has 16 GB of VRAM, but you could and should have at least 16 GB of system RAM on your PC. Id imagine 32GB for next gen. Devs can load half of the game in the System ram and move the levels in and out from system ram into vram as they desire without ever even looking at the ssd.

A good example of just how powerful PCs are is the 3080. It only has 10 GB of VRAM compared to the 13.5 GB available to games on the XSX and maybe the PS5. But that doesnt mean it will struggle to run games designed on the PS5 because a lot of the VRAM on the PS5 is being used for things other than rendering. Game logic, A.I, what have you. So that 10 GB wont really be a bottleneck because almost no PS5 game would be using 13.5 GB for VRAM alone.

Here is KZ Shadowfalls' VRAM usage. Only 3 of the 5GB available was used for graphics.

It is some interesting points you are making IMO, but I'm not sure I agree, with some of them.

Shadow fall is a poor example of unified RAM usage for graphics on the PS4 because it was a launch title and started development well into the time when the unofficial dev grapevine info would have been saying that the PS4 was only going to have 4GBs of GDDR5, before Cerny shocked everyone at the reveal with 8GB.

I agree that for conventional foreground rendered assets using H/w accelerated RT new PCs with high-end graphics cards should be able to best the PS5, but from how I understand the UE5 demo graphics, most of what wowed us, was nanite(with lumen), and if nanite is using SDF rendering, as onesvenus has speculated for a long time, then the real issue becomes about IO latency for texture mapping with 8 layers of 8K textures per SDF model - which are already tessellated beyond resolution limits.

So even if the PC could render foreground items better, and probably have major advantages for lumen, its IO latency might still needed it to compromise the texture detail down to 2K for a similar scene if doubling the frame-rate or screen resolution - because streamed texel texture samples per frame might increase proportionally with framebuffer resolution.

As the generation goes on, I suspect the nanite technology will mature to overcome some of its constraints and be able to handle things like animation for most of the foreground assets, too. At which point I would expect the production level of first party AAA console games to be a bigger visual gain than anything that the PC could then bring by technical specs.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I'm still confused on the UE5 demo and "multiple 8K textures" thing.. they are rendering at 1440p internally. What really is the use of tiny 8k textures at that point?

It seems more logical to me that the mention of those textures is similar to how they describe billions of "source polygons", but those are the assets that are pulled into the engine tools, then scaled for disk storage.. then further scaled down for rendering.

I'm not super well versed on graphics tech so I do mean that as I am legit confused and could be missing something.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I'm still confused on the UE5 demo and "multiple 8K textures" thing.. they are rendering at 1440p internally. What really is the use of tiny 8k textures at that point?

It seems more logical to me that the mention of those textures is similar to how they describe billions of "source polygons", but those are the assets that are pulled into the engine tools, then scaled for disk storage.. then further scaled down for rendering.

I'm not super well versed on graphics tech so I do mean that as I am legit confused and could be missing something.

My guess is that you can put your face up to a wall and still have extremely detailed textures. It was something that they showed in the demo.

 

[IntentionalPun]

My guess is that you can put your face up to a wall and still have extremely detailed textures. It was something that they showed in the demo.

That's still all rendered at 1440p. I'm aware of techniques like super-sampling; but that seems overkill to have 8k texturing on a 1440p render.

edit: oh I suppose you mean it would help with rendering something small to fill the frame.. maybe I'm just having a brain fart, or aneurism.

 

[Mr Moose]

I'm still confused on the UE5 demo and "multiple 8K textures" thing.. they are rendering at 1440p internally. What really is the use of tiny 8k textures at that point?

It seems more logical to me that the mention of those textures is similar to how they describe billions of "source polygons", but those are the assets that are pulled into the engine tools, then scaled for disk storage.. then further scaled down for rendering.

I'm not super well versed on graphics tech so I do mean that as I am legit confused and could be missing something.

UE5 salesman: You see this statue? *slaps statues ass*
8K textures, you can drive away in this baby today.

 

[MasterCornholio]

That's still all rendered at 1440p. I'm aware of techniques like super-sampling; but that seems overkill to have 8k texturing on a 1440p render.

Might be overkill but they probably did that to sell the product. And to ensure there's not a bad looking texture anywhere. Doesn't mean developers will do this with their games. Hence why it's a demo of what's possible but not necessarily what will be.

 

[PaintTinJr]

That's still all rendered at 1440p.

Real life perception tops out between 4k and 8k - before we can't detect anymore detail IIRC. An 8K camera shoot downsampled to DVD at 625i/480p it is still showing real life, so photo-realism is more about the realism of the things in the scene, than the resolution of the picture of the scene.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Might be overkill but they probably did that to sell the product. And to ensure there's not a bad looking texture anywhere. Doesn't mean developers will do this with their games. Hence why it's a demo of what's possible but not necessarily what will be.

See my edit.. I think maybe I'm just having a brain fart... I suppose getting close up to something is basically zooming, so an 8k texture could be used to make a small object fill your viewport at high detail.

 

[MasterCornholio]

See my edit.. I think maybe I'm just having a brain fart... I suppose getting close up to something is basically zooming, so an 8k texture could be used to make a small object fill your viewport at high detail.

That makes sense.

 

[Apollo Helios]

It's amazing people still don't know the difference between render resolution, object resolution, and finally output resolution....

Render resolution was in the past for the whole frame, dealt at engine level/internally, however nowadays distance fields and/or objects and even shaders may have different internal rendering resolutions in any given single frame.

Btw with frame jittering which is also called temporal injection, those single lower-res portions of the frames build up higher-res portions between frames, AND that's why even DF can't count those pixels especially in static scenes. With the temporal injection method, any frame looks sharper even at a lower resolution and that's with 30fps games, with the coming 60 fps games it's possible to render even a little lower resolutions to get the same sharpness, and that's why Spider-Man MM could do 60 fps with RT. In that game, lower resolution reflections and shorter distance-signed window shaders that drop reflections of farther all made it possible to hit 16.7ms render budget and no one was wiser. You can't tell the difference in motion, not unless you take a screenshot and then compare by zooming.

So does it really matter what internal res frame or objects are rendered as long as it looks sharper than ever before? And Insomniac is the fucking best at that temporal injection with their own technique that is the envy of many studios.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Assuming that was directed at me; I'm aware of like 90% of what you said.. I appreciate any extra info, but there's no reason to be condescending. How is it "amazing" that random hobbyist who admittedly don't know much... don't know much?

And I never said it "matters" that it's rendered at a lower resolution.. I was just asking for an explanation of how 8k textures fit into the picture.. also brought up I'm aware of various super-sampling technciques.

And we were talking specifically about UE5.. not sure how Insomniacs engine got brought into this.

 

[jroc74]

Might be overkill but they probably did that to sell the product. And to ensure there's not a bad looking texture anywhere. Doesn't mean developers will do this with their games. Hence why it's a demo of what's possible but not necessarily what will be.

Yeah, with almost 500 of those statues in that room, which was overkill in itself, it was just a demo about whats possible.

 

[Rea]

Simply unacceptable and yet no one is talking about it. A good 80-90% of the 49 million Xbox one owners have the base X1 or the X1S and they are getting this insanely inferior experience. This should be big news.

Maybe that's the reason DF doesn't do all consoles comparisons, they only have video about PS5 vs series X. I mean that's their job right? To compare all the consoles version, at least other games they do. They don't wanna shine bad light against Microsoft Xbox1.

 

[By-mission]

That's still all rendered at 1440p. I'm aware of techniques like super-sampling; but that seems overkill to have 8k texturing on a 1440p render.

edit: oh I suppose you mean it would help with rendering something small to fill the frame.. maybe I'm just having a brain fart, or aneurism.

Google translator:

Maybe it's a little bit of what I see on a daily basis but let's go.
In a direct comparison, I take a photograph in RAW 16 bits at a resolution of 50mp there, a zomm of 10 times and the image works perfectly on any monitor or print so yes for professional use this is okay I have the freedom to use as I want ...
Now I decide to publish this same image on Stagram or Facebook soon there is an error in the publication or in the worst case a proprietary algorithm reschedules the image and in 99% of the cases it makes my photo with such quality pass in the timeline of other people as a photo of a 2mp Tekpix ...

Returning to the subject, supersampling works in compatible resolutions, do not connect the PS5 to a 720p HDTV that you will automatically have a 16x of MSAA in theory there are 8 pixels of the 4k output rescheduled for each pixel of the 720p, in practice it is a huge confusion of pixels that depending on your monitor or displaying an image.

So an 8k texture you have the margin to cut and enlarge before you need to load another texture due to the lod and viewing distance.

A practical example, GTA V, for example, even on a top plate, has limits on the resolution of the textures close to the character, a 3090 can render this in 8k, but not being a mod, the limits are there due to excessive use of the vram ...

If the nanite makes 1/10 of the demo in a game like this even in 1080p it would be exponentially a much bigger evolution than the PS1 | PS2 and PS2 | PS3.

 

[Mr Moose]

Maybe that's the reason DF doesn't do all consoles comparisons, they only have video about PS5 vs series X. I mean that's their job right? To compare all the consoles version, at least other games they do. They don't wanna shine bad light against Microsoft Xbox1.

I don't mind who does the comparisons as long as it's not Tom, he fucking sucks at pixel counting (selectively maybe, always seems to be wrong in favour of Xbox... Fifa, Mass Effect, Immortals, the list goes on). The others at least present their findings showing differences.

Digital Foundry: Fifa 21 PS5 vs XSX|S

Mostly compares next gen fifa with last gen . Ps5 and xsx are 4k 60 xss is 1080p 60 Ps5 has dualsense support with haptic feedback and adaptive triggers . Edit :

www.neogaf.com

Digital Foundry: Fifa 21 PS5 vs XSX|S

Mostly compares next gen fifa with last gen . Ps5 and xsx are 4k 60 xss is 1080p 60 Ps5 has dualsense support with haptic feedback and adaptive triggers . Edit :

www.neogaf.com

That dude is blind, even I can do better than him, also can't tell there is better textures on Genshin Impact.

 

[onesvenus]

if nanite is using SDF rendering, as onesvenus onesvenus has speculated for a long time, then the real issue becomes about IO latency for texture mapping with 8 layers of 8K textures per SDF model - which are already tessellated beyond resolution limits

I'm still confused on the UE5 demo and "multiple 8K textures" thing.. they are rendering at 1440p internally. What really is the use of tiny 8k textures at that point?

It seems more logical to me that the mention of those textures is similar to how they describe billions of "source polygons", but those are the assets that are pulled into the engine tools, then scaled for disk storage.. then further scaled down for rendering.

I'm not super well versed on graphics tech so I do mean that as I am legit confused and could be missing something.

This is a wild guess but something to consider: If we are really talking about sub-pixel polygons it might make more sense to encode those textures as per-vertex color instead of loading/unloading such big textures. Obviously that would only work for meshes with higher polygon counts but there's a point were using textures versus encoding data in each vertex is not really a win. I don't think we're quite there yet, but let's see.

Another thing to consider is that using PRT/SF or other similar techniques you don't need to load the whole texture

 

[thewire]

lol someone asked DF about Insomniac loading data in and out of VRAM on player turns. Known SSD hater, Alex, would like more information before commenting and still ended up downplaying it. lol

Timestamped:



He brings up "concerns" about the speed and latency of getting things in and out of memory even though insomniac literally confirmed Cerny's claim that you could do it on a player camera turn. Clearly, the speed and latency is no longer a concern because you can literally do it on a player camera controlled turn. He then speculates that we dont know what the benefits are. I mean the article mentions how the benefits are more detailed worlds.

For those who arent aware of Alex's crusade against the SSD and I/O of the PS5. This is him getting called out for downplaying it last year, throwing a fit, crying to mods, and getting both posters he quoted banned in the process.

We now finally have proof that the SSD and I/O combined to bring a more detailed world in Ratchet, and he wants to wait and see. Umm, how about you pick up the phone and call Insomniac? They contact studios all the time over some framedrops and have no real access to Insomniac? Even John and Richard just shrugged this off. It looks really unprofessional for them to just punt it off like that when they can just say, "hey, we need more detail on this so we are going to contact Insomniac and see if we can get that."

I still remember how a dev on twitter called out Alex and was worried how he worked for digital foundry and not understand basic concepts about the ps5’s I/O.

 

[thewire]

I think its a lil more to it than that. Anytime ppl here can dumb it down for some of us on here to at least get an idea of whats going on, and he acts like there are no other ways to get the info he wants....well.....

Insomniac tweeted out in general terms what was going on. There is no way he can at least come with an educated guess? Like he did with Halo Infinite lighting/why it was looking flat?

I guess some folks pick n choose when to speculate, what to speculate on.



Honestly, what I'm starting to see is ppl that originally doubted just how game changing the SSD's were going to be are in awe with what Insomniac has shown.


In a game that ships in a few weeks.

I hope insomniac does the technical breakdown of rachet, like bluepoint did with demon souls, just to shut all this FUD up about the ps5 I/O.

 

[Loope]

I hope insomniac does the technical breakdown of rachet, like bluepoint did with demon souls, just to shut all this FUD up about the ps5 I/O.

What fud about the I/O. so far i've seen nothing but praising and some people saying is not the huge advantage many people are giving it, because you still have to deal with the GPU. Is that FUD? Really?

 

[MasterCornholio]

What fud about the I/O. so far i've seen nothing but praising and some people saying is not the huge advantage many people are giving it, because you still have to deal with the GPU. Is that FUD? Really?

I don't think the GPU participates in the I/O which is unlike what Nvidia is doing with their GPUs. Basically what Nvidia GPUs are doing is handled by the custom hardware that the PS5 has like the I/O complex.

 

[skit_data]

What fud about the I/O. so far i've seen nothing but praising and some people saying is not the huge advantage many people are giving it, because you still have to deal with the GPU. Is that FUD? Really?

IDK if I would call it FUD, but I’ve seen and still see plenty of people still convinced a fast I/O does nothing but decrease loading times, has zero impact on what you actually see on screen and that no ”ps5 magic ssd” will ever change that.

 

[Thief1987]

I still remember how a dev on twitter called out Alex and was worried how he worked for digital foundry and not understand basic concepts about the ps5’s I/O.

It's honestly hilarious to me that these theoretic "tech enthusiasts" with zero practical skill think that they know better than actual developers.

 

[Loope]

IDK if I would call it FUD, but I’ve seen and still see plenty of people still convinced a fast I/O does nothing but decrease loading times, has zero impact on what you actually see on screen and that no ”ps5 magic ssd” will ever change that.

Yes, i've seen it too. Most people are speculating etc. but FUD, come on.

 

[Rea]

Yes, i've seen it too. Most people are speculating etc. but FUD, come on.

Fear Uncertainty Doubts. That's how Alex is exactly behaving. He has so much uncertainty, so much doubts on Ps5 SSD. All the answers is already in Road to PS5.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yes, i've seen it too. Most people are speculating etc. but FUD, come on.

I think the FUD is that the PS5s I/O is only useful for the initial loading. Which isn't why Sony put all that effort into designing it. Their goals for it goes beyond just loading a simple level and that's been talked about in The Road to PS5. Even Insomniac and other developers have said the same thing.

 

[Dodkrake]

Fear Uncertainty Doubts. That's how Alex is exactly behaving. He has so much uncertainty, so much doubts on Ps5 SSD. All the answers is already in Road to PS5.

And he speaks on a platform with over 1M people. As I said previously, it baffled me that they chucked down the "garbled" textures on reflections in R&C trailer (beginning) when it's very obvious that the scene includes noise to simulate a non-smooth surface. The reflection next to the object is sharp, then it gradually becomes fuzzy. It may be lower resolution, but leaving the key design part out is either dishonest or ignorance.

 

[skit_data]

Fear Uncertainty Doubts. That's how Alex is exactly behaving. He has so much uncertainty, so much doubts on Ps5 SSD. All the answers is already in Road to PS5.

I haven’t followed exactly what Alex said before that puts him in a bad light but in the latest DF podcast the only thing I saw was him posing pretty reasonable questions that Sony has been pretty tight lipped about. I take it he want to see a more comparative scenario between two quite similar games like this:

1 Game using this new technique of loading
vs
1 Game using a more traditional technique

What are the visible differences? How big is the benefit of using the first method? How would this apply to games of another genre?

We haven’t really seen such a comparison and I’m really curious to see it. We will probably get a decent glimpse of it in Ratchet&Clank Rift Apart. Hopefully we get a similar 1 hour talk like John did with Bluepoint on Demon’s Souls

Edit: Maybe ”tight lipped” is the wrong term. ”Unable to show us in practice because R&C is the first game to actually do this” would be more fitting.

 

[Rea]

I haven’t followed exactly what Alex said before that puts him in a bad light but in the latest DF podcast the only thing I saw was him posing pretty reasonable questions that Sony has been pretty tight lipped about. I take it he want to see a more comparative scenario between two quite similar games like this:

1 Game using this new technique of loading
vs
1 Game using a more traditional technique

What are the visible differences? How big is the benefit of using the first method? How would this apply to games of another genre?

We haven’t really seen such a comparison and I’m really curious to see it. We will probably get a decent glimpse of it in Ratchet&Clank Rift Apart. Hopefully we get a similar 1 hour talk like John did with Bluepoint on Demon’s Souls

Edit: Maybe ”tight lipped” is the wrong term. ”Unable to show us in practice because R&C is the first game to actually do this” would be more fitting.

Everyone wants to know, but being a professional tech journalist, he should have make an educated guess. Instead he talks about latency and stuff, that's being disingenuous, Cerny already mentioned that how latency is important in I/O and sacrifice die space to eliminate or minimize it. The latency in PS5 I/O is a few milliseconds that is, Dev can request data before the GPU render the next frame or worst case it will take after next frame, that's how fast PS5 I/O is.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Everyone wants to know, but being a professional tech journalist, he should have make an educated guess. Instead he talks about latency and stuff, that's being disingenuous, Cerny already mentioned that how latency is important in I/O and sacrifice die space to eliminate or minimize it. The latency in PS5 I/O is a few milliseconds that is, Dev can request data before the GPU render the next frame or worst case it will take after next frame, that's how fast PS5 I/O is.

Latency is measured in nanoseconds not miliseconds.

 

[Rea]

Latency is measured in nanoseconds not miliseconds.

Well, I'm just repeating what Cerny has said, he did say that
"With latency of just a few milliseconds, data can be requested and delivered within the processing time of a single frame, or at worst for the next frame."

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

 

[M1chl]

Latency is measured in nanoseconds not miliseconds.

Well no, that's in RAM and inside the SoC, that's in µn outside of this two things it's in ms, which....it's really fucking quick.

 

[thewire]

What fud about the I/O. so far i've seen nothing but praising and some people saying is not the huge advantage many people are giving it, because you still have to deal with the GPU. Is that FUD? Really?

When you have technical based site like digital foundry have one of its members downplay and question what the ps5 I/o is capable of in Rachet and then question its latency impact when Tim Sweeney, the ceo from epic, was literally beating his junk off over ps5 low latency last year, calling it the best in the business or the fact that he can contact developers and ask them how this shit works in the ps5. I mean he’s seems to understand sfs and it’s benefits but can’t understand Sony’s road to ps5 tech talk? It’s very disingenuous, I mean he immediately knew the issues with halo infinite but can’t understand how the ps5 allows for REYES in Rachet.
Better yet digital foundry had an interview with mark cerny last year about the ps5 architecture and like slimysnake said Richard just kept going on about variable clocks lol. At least John & Richard understood in the current video that Sony paid the cost for the extra I/O die space for a reason and not just for super fast loading. Insomniac devs having a tech breakdown with rachet defo needs to happen shut this nonsense up and have more egg on Alex’s face much like the UE5 demo did to him last year.

 

[DarkParadise]

Regarding the discussion of "downplaying the PS5's SSD":

As of now, the PS5 offers the best future tech for a great value. The I/O output and SSD technology the PS5 has to offer isn't even there on PC right now. That being said, you can absolutely get a PCIE 4 SSD right now, and i am sure going forward the prices for those SSDs will fall. Stuff like RTX I/O has already been announced for PC, the Ryzen CPU's already run on PCIE4. Once DirectStorage is available on PC, and you have a fairly modern PC with a PCIE4 motherboard, it will be easy to "imitate" what the PS5 is already doing.

Even Nvidia said that in the future, games could require a SSD with certain speeds. Since the Series X SSD is half the speed of the PS5 SSD, this could be an indicator as to how fast the average SSD must be for certain games for PC's in the future. Mark Cerny knew that SSD's will play a heavy role in the future, and doubled on that. Third party games will most likely never require the high SSD's speeds of PS5, but that's why exclusive games can also be a good thing. The new Ratchet and Clank proves that without a DirectStorage capable GPU, CPU and a SSD like the Samsung 980Pro, the game wouldn't even run on a PC right now. And who knows, after all they are doing optimizations for the PS5's custom I/O architecture - maybe even stronger hardware might be required to imitate what the PS5 is doing.

What i am trying to say is that Sony is probably laughing at the whole comparison videos where the Series X might hit higher resolutions. Series X is pretty much a modern future gaming PC, but the PS5 has gone the long way to strengthen their exclusive games with the "higher up" of certain specs we could expect for PCs in the near future. And this makes sense, as Xbox is heavily tied to PC gaming in general, while Sony is double dipping on their exclusive games market with their specialised console.

Future PC tech will essentially be a better PS5, though it remains unclear if the tech of the PS5 will be required. Because as of now, the Series X would be left off with the lower SSD speeds. It would be funny if a mid gen refresh with faster SSD's would happen.

In that sense, it makes sense when Alex "is downplaying the PS5s SSD" since PC tech will most likely exceed the speeds of the PS5 (he is also a guy that favors pc gaming, i get it) since he most likely has inside as to how gaming pcs will look like (especially with the jump to DDR5 soon). But the Series X in that sense is in a worse position, so it doesn't make sense to "only" downplay the PS5. Anyway, both consoles offer great values for what is still to come, and they pretty much represent how the architecture for pc tech will look like going forward. Alex is pretty much saying "yeah, consoles are a tech of the future right now, but wait till PCs catch up" - not a great behaviour, but i think he just wants to point out the obvious.

 

[SlimySnake]

I haven’t followed exactly what Alex said before that puts him in a bad light but in the latest DF podcast the only thing I saw was him posing pretty reasonable questions that Sony has been pretty tight lipped about. I take it he want to see a more comparative scenario between two quite similar games like this:

1 Game using this new technique of loading
vs
1 Game using a more traditional technique

What are the visible differences? How big is the benefit of using the first method? How would this apply to games of another genre?

We haven’t really seen such a comparison and I’m really curious to see it. We will probably get a decent glimpse of it in Ratchet&Clank Rift Apart. Hopefully we get a similar 1 hour talk like John did with Bluepoint on Demon’s Souls

Edit: Maybe ”tight lipped” is the wrong term. ”Unable to show us in practice because R&C is the first game to actually do this” would be more fitting.

Like I said in my original post, pick up the phone and find out. They have done extensive interviews with Guerrilla Games, and most recently Bluepoint who were very forthcoming. They have had plenty of chances to ask devs about this stuff. Ignorance is not an excuse for downplaying this stuff.

BTW, Bluepoint told them the benefits of the PS5 SSD and I/O. They pointed out how they were loading data as soon as you turn the corner, not half way down the hallway like they would on the PS4. They need less in memory at all times which means they can take the existing areas and up the detail and up the textures.

BP dev later goes on to say how it improves their streaming engine. Even DS back then was streaming assets in and out of memory but the chunks were much larger. Now that they can load so fast, their chunks are much smaller which allows them to increase the graphical fidelity in every single area of the game.

Timstamped:


Earlier in the video, they talk about the I/O processor offloading all the decompression from the CPU like they used to on SOTC on PS4. Now all of that is handled by the I/O processor leaving the CPU free to do other things. They talk about how they are loading 3-4 GB of compressed data per second and just the power to decompress all that data is impossible to do on a system without all these I/O components Cerny mentioned in his talk when he talked about eliminating bottlenecks in the I/O.

He specifically brings up how faster loading is cool and all but it doesnt really matter when you are waiting seconds for the textures to decompress.

It's all right there. Maybe Alex should watch some DF videos.

 

[ethomaz]

There are several games that shows SSD capabilities on PS5 already.
We are not in promises anymore but delivery.

 

[ZywyPL]

I think the FUD is that the PS5s I/O is only useful for the initial loading. Which isn't why Sony put all that effort into designing it. Their goals for it goes beyond just loading a simple level and that's been talked about in The Road to PS5. Even Insomniac and other developers have said the same thing.

Is it really FUD or a PR statement that's yet to be proven? Many clowns on this forum claimed that because of its SSD the PS5 will be able to output much better looking games than anything on a 10k PC, like it's gonna bypass the GPU and move the CGI-quality assets straight the the TV or something, which only shows how clueless those delusional fanboys are (thankfully most of them were banned long time ago and we don't have to deal with 2-3 new SSD threads per day anymore).

Now take R&C as example - a PS5-only game, clearly build to make the most out of that SSD, but the question is when/where does the SSD actually help the game in terms of the visuals? Obviously the game looks much better than the previous PS4 installment, but that's because the GPU is 5-6 times more powerful this time around, duh. And people even notice pop-ins and LOD swaps, which were said to be gone forever, especially/only on PS5 and its state-of-the-art, game-changing SSD. So again, is it really FUD when it's all there, right in front of your eyes on all the officially released gameplays?

Now, at the same time there's also the upcoming Kena, which looks on par, if not better than R&C, without any fancy SSD I/O, and it will run just perfectly fine on a regular HDD on PC. Or compare R&C to even the recent PS4 titles like TLoU2 for example, which doesn't look that much worse (if at all), and that's a game build for again, HDD, and not even a 2TF GPU. The Medium, another example of fancy SSD usage, and again, the graphics alone aren't something out of this world.

So like I said, all the "absolutely impossible without SSD" narratives are yet to be shown, proven, just because the dev tools and pipeline have changed doesn't mean something can't be done the traditional old way, brute forced if needed.

I haven’t followed exactly what Alex said before that puts him in a bad light

He didn't trash on Halo Infinite reveal gameplay as the fanboys wanted him to do so, he actually even made an excuse instead on how the game could potentially look much better with a proper lightning. Since then he became the public enemy of SonyGAF.

 

[assurdum]

When you have technical based site like digital foundry have one of its members downplay and question what the ps5 I/o is capable of in Rachet and then question its latency impact when Tim Sweeney, the ceo from epic, was literally beating his junk off over ps5 low latency last year, calling it the best in the business or the fact that he can contact developers and ask them how this shit works in the ps5. I mean he’s seems to understand sfs and it’s benefits but can’t understand Sony’s road to ps5 tech talk? It’s very disingenuous, I mean he immediately knew the issues with halo infinite but can’t understand how the ps5 allows for REYES in Rachet.
Better yet digital foundry had an interview with mark cerny last year about the ps5 architecture and like slimysnake said Richard just kept going on about variable clocks lol. At least John & Richard understood in the current video that Sony paid the cost for the extra I/O die space for a reason and not just for super fast loading. Insomniac devs having a tech breakdown with rachet defo needs to happen shut this nonsense up and have more egg on Alex’s face much like the UE5 demo did to him last year.

People should stop to consider DF a tech site. It's not at all. They are just passionate who talk about tech stuff.
Just people like Riky can think they are tech expertise.

 

[jroc74]

What makes the whole Alex thing so weird.....

He's heavy into PC gaming, right?
I'm pretty sure he has an idea about virtual memory and the benefits of it, right?

When I see examples of frustum culling and someone breaks it down on a very basic level the benefits of what R n C could be doing in relation to that, the first thing that came to mind was freeing up ram.

So...no educated guesses, despite being heavy into PC gaming. And like it was pointed out....when they talked about SFS there were some excitement and enthusiasm.

Whenever I mention SSD's I do that for a reason, because on a basic level it applies to both PS5 and Series consoles wrt leveraging the SSD's and the I/O.

Is it really FUD or a PR statement that's yet to be proven? Many clowns on this forum claimed that because of its SSD the PS5 will be able to output much better looking games than anything on a 10k PC, like it's gonna bypass the GPU and move the CGI-quality assets straight the the TV or something, which only shows how clueless those delusional fanboys are (thankfully most of them were banned long time ago and we don't have to deal with 2-3 new SSD threads per day anymore).

Now take R&C as example - a PS5-only game, clearly build to make the most out of that SSD, but the question is when/where does the SSD actually help the game in terms of the visuals? Obviously the game looks much better than the previous PS4 installment, but that's because the GPU is 5-6 times more powerful this time around, duh. And people even notice pop-ins and LOD swaps, which were said to be gone forever, especially/only on PS5 and its state-of-the-art, game-changing SSD. So again, is it really FUD when it's all there, right in front of your eyes on all the officially released gameplays?

Now, at the same time there's also the upcoming Kena, which looks on par, if not better than R&C, without any fancy SSD I/O, and it will run just perfectly fine on a regular HDD on PC. Or compare R&C to even the recent PS4 titles like TLoU2 for example, which doesn't look that much worse (if at all), and that's a game build for again, HDD, and not even a 2TF GPU. The Medium, another example of fancy SSD usage, and again, the graphics alone aren't something out of this world.

So like I said, all the "absolutely impossible without SSD" narratives are yet to be shown, proven, just because the dev tools and pipeline have changed doesn't mean something can't be done the traditional old way, brute forced if needed.




He didn't trash on Halo Infinite reveal gameplay as the fanboys wanted him to do so, he actually even made an excuse instead on how the game could potentially look much better with a proper lightning. Since then he became the public enemy of SonyGAF.

You might have a point if every game ever designed was designed exactly 1:1.

So comparing Rift Apart to Kena or The Medium doesnt really mean anything.

 

[SlimySnake]

Is it really FUD or a PR statement that's yet to be proven? Many clowns on this forum claimed that because of its SSD the PS5 will be able to output much better looking games than anything on a 10k PC, like it's gonna bypass the GPU and move the CGI-quality assets straight the the TV or something, which only shows how clueless those delusional fanboys are (thankfully most of them were banned long time ago and we don't have to deal with 2-3 new SSD threads per day anymore).

Now take R&C as example - a PS5-only game, clearly build to make the most out of that SSD, but the question is when/where does the SSD actually help the game in terms of the visuals? Obviously the game looks much better than the previous PS4 installment, but that's because the GPU is 5-6 times more powerful this time around, duh. And people even notice pop-ins and LOD swaps, which were said to be gone forever, especially/only on PS5 and its state-of-the-art, game-changing SSD. So again, is it really FUD when it's all there, right in front of your eyes on all the officially released gameplays?

Now, at the same time there's also the upcoming Kena, which looks on par, if not better than R&C, without any fancy SSD I/O, and it will run just perfectly fine on a regular HDD on PC. Or compare R&C to even the recent PS4 titles like TLoU2 for example, which doesn't look that much worse (if at all), and that's a game build for again, HDD, and not even a 2TF GPU. The Medium, another example of fancy SSD usage, and again, the graphics alone aren't something out of this world.

So like I said, all the "absolutely impossible without SSD" narratives are yet to be shown, proven, just because the dev tools and pipeline have changed doesn't mean something can't be done the traditional old way, brute forced if needed.




He didn't trash on Halo Infinite reveal gameplay as the fanboys wanted him to do so, he actually even made an excuse instead on how the game could potentially look much better with a proper lightning. Since then he became the public enemy of SonyGAF.

Kena does not look as good as Ratchet. Come on.

And R&C's level switching is literally not possible without SSD. How can you look at the very first trailer and think that could be done on a HDD? That narrative was proven literally the day the first PS5 games were shown.

 

[thewire]

Is it really FUD or a PR statement that's yet to be proven? Many clowns on this forum claimed that because of its SSD the PS5 will be able to output much better looking games than anything on a 10k PC, like it's gonna bypass the GPU and move the CGI-quality assets straight the the TV or something, which only shows how clueless those delusional fanboys are (thankfully most of them were banned long time ago and we don't have to deal with 2-3 new SSD threads per day anymore).

Now take R&C as example - a PS5-only game, clearly build to make the most out of that SSD, but the question is when/where does the SSD actually help the game in terms of the visuals? Obviously the game looks much better than the previous PS4 installment, but that's because the GPU is 5-6 times more powerful this time around, duh. And people even notice pop-ins and LOD swaps, which were said to be gone forever, especially/only on PS5 and its state-of-the-art, game-changing SSD. So again, is it really FUD when it's all there, right in front of your eyes on all the officially released gameplays?

Now, at the same time there's also the upcoming Kena, which looks on par, if not better than R&C, without any fancy SSD I/O, and it will run just perfectly fine on a regular HDD on PC. Or compare R&C to even the recent PS4 titles like TLoU2 for example, which doesn't look that much worse (if at all), and that's a game build for again, HDD, and not even a 2TF GPU. The Medium, another example of fancy SSD usage, and again, the graphics alone aren't something out of this world.

So like I said, all the "absolutely impossible without SSD" narratives are yet to be shown, proven, just because the dev tools and pipeline have changed doesn't mean something can't be done the traditional old way, brute forced if needed.




He didn't trash on Halo Infinite reveal gameplay as the fanboys wanted him to do so, he actually even made an excuse instead on how the game could potentially look much better with a proper lightning. Since then he became the public enemy of SonyGAF.

In what reality is kena better looking than rachet & clank? Seriously who the hell saw rachet & clank this past month and thought kena looks better than this? Kena looks great esp for a small team making it but it is NOT better looking than Rachet.
Never seen such nonsense spread, the ue5 demo running on ps5 literally puts to bed the nonsense you’re sprouting since it has ridiculously high level assets & textures being used in game because of the ps5 I/0 subsystem since they can render what the eye sees or REYES which improves graphics rather than having to store 30 seconds worth of data in ram like last gen.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Well, I'm just repeating what Cerny has said, he did say that
"With latency of just a few milliseconds, data can be requested and delivered within the processing time of a single frame, or at worst for the next frame."

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

Well no, that's in RAM and inside the SoC, that's in µn outside of this two things it's in ms, which....it's really fucking quick.

You're right, my bad. I was thinking of RAM.

It's too early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee

 

[Loope]

Is it really FUD or a PR statement that's yet to be proven? Many clowns on this forum claimed that because of its SSD the PS5 will be able to output much better looking games than anything on a 10k PC, like it's gonna bypass the GPU and move the CGI-quality assets straight the the TV or something, which only shows how clueless those delusional fanboys are (thankfully most of them were banned long time ago and we don't have to deal with 2-3 new SSD threads per day anymore).

Now take R&C as example - a PS5-only game, clearly build to make the most out of that SSD, but the question is when/where does the SSD actually help the game in terms of the visuals? Obviously the game looks much better than the previous PS4 installment, but that's because the GPU is 5-6 times more powerful this time around, duh. And people even notice pop-ins and LOD swaps, which were said to be gone forever, especially/only on PS5 and its state-of-the-art, game-changing SSD. So again, is it really FUD when it's all there, right in front of your eyes on all the officially released gameplays?

Now, at the same time there's also the upcoming Kena, which looks on par, if not better than R&C, without any fancy SSD I/O, and it will run just perfectly fine on a regular HDD on PC. Or compare R&C to even the recent PS4 titles like TLoU2 for example, which doesn't look that much worse (if at all), and that's a game build for again, HDD, and not even a 2TF GPU. The Medium, another example of fancy SSD usage, and again, the graphics alone aren't something out of this world.

So like I said, all the "absolutely impossible without SSD" narratives are yet to be shown, proven, just because the dev tools and pipeline have changed doesn't mean something can't be done the traditional old way, brute forced if needed.




He didn't trash on Halo Infinite reveal gameplay as the fanboys wanted him to do so, he actually even made an excuse instead on how the game could potentially look much better with a proper lightning. Since then he became the public enemy of SonyGAF.

That is what confuses me most to be honest, but because i'm not really savy in this type of stuff i prefer to just go with logic. If a GPU is weak or weaker, how does the SSD helo in that scenario? The GPU won't render things faster, i mean i believe what Sony engineers said, they know what they're doing obviously, but i always equate visuals with GPU power. So in a few years, if they develop a similar I/O for PC, we don't need to upgrade our GPUs?

I always associate SSD, RAM whatever with transporting information from one place to the other, i understand that Sony made a huge shortcut for that information, but if x amount of information arrives at the GPU quicker, but it can only process it at x-1 at the same amount of time, how does that benefit graphics as a whole?

I genuinly don't understand and maybe won't even if you explain it to me ahjahah

 

[yewles1]

In what reality is kena better looking than rachet & clank? Seriously who the hell saw rachet & clank this past month and thought kena looks better than this? Kena looks great esp for a small team making it but it is NOT better looking than Rachet.
Never seen such nonsense spread, the ue5 demo running on ps5 literally puts to bed the nonsense you’re sprouting since it has ridiculously high level assets & textures being used in game because of the ps5 I/0 subsystem since they can render what the eye sees or REYES which improves graphics rather than having to store 30 seconds worth of data in ram like last gen.

Can we all take a step back to appreciate that a CONSOLE is achieving REYES in realtime after almost 40 years?

 

[MasterCornholio]

That is what confuses me most to be honest, but because i'm not really savy in this type of stuff i prefer to just go with logic. If a GPU is weak or weaker, how does the SSD helo in that scenario? The GPU won't render things faster, i mean i believe what Sony engineers said, they know what they're doing obviously, but i always equate visuals with GPU power. So in a few years, if they develop a similar I/O for PC, we don't need to upgrade our GPUs?

I always associate SSD, RAM whatever with transporting information from one place to the other, i understand that Sony made a huge shortcut for that information, but if x amount of information arrives at the GPU quicker, but it can only process it at x-1 at the same amount of time, how does that benefit graphics as a whole?

I genuinly don't understand and maybe won't even if you explain it to me ahjahah

It's more about the assets the ram can provide to the GPU. Theory that since you need less of them in the ram you can have higher quality assets. It's not going to make it the game go from 30FPS to 60FPS or increase the resolution. But it can increase the quality of things like textures for example. If you have a ton of ram you really don't need a fast SSD but if you have a limited amount it helps a lot.

Basically the gist of what Cerny said in his presentation.

 

[Loope]

It's more about the assets the ram can provide to the GPU. Theory that since you need less of them in the ram you can have higher quality assets. It's not going to make it the game go from 30FPS to 60FPS or increase the resolution. But it can increase the quality of things like textures for example. If you have a ton of ram you really don't need a fast SSD but if you have a limited amount it helps a lot.

Basically the gist of what Cerny said in his presentation.

Well shit, that was easier to understand ahah. Thanks man, i honestly think i've heard it before, but somedays i'm just not working well eheh.

Like i said, i always trust both companies engineers, they really don't give a shit about console wars, they choose what they think is best for their vision and execute it. If they say there are gains there, then there are gains there, it's simple.

 

[Tripolygon]

And R&C's level switching is literally not possible without SSD. How can you look at the very first trailer and think that could be done on a HDD? That narrative was proven literally the day the first PS5 games were shown.

The mechanic is possible but it would have to be designed differently, by having both "levels" in the RAM and warp between both levels as it was done in Dishonored and Titanfall.

 

[Rossco EZ]

 

[LucasBR]

Someone was faster than me

 

[SlimySnake]

Nice!

Finally!

Oh wow. They say Enhanced Resolution. I wonder if they are targetting native 4k or 1800p. PS4 Pro was 1400p IIRC because ND games dont play well with checkerboarding. So 1800p would be my guess seeing as how PS5 has 2.5x more tflops, but also needs to render every frame twice to get 60 fps.

This is running in BC mode so they wont get any of the 1.25x RDNA IPC gains so with 8 tflops they should be able to do 1440p 60 fps. 1800p is roughly 1.5x more pixels so if they had headroom on the Pro then its possible to 1800p at 60 fps.