Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Samsomite said:
Estimation/speculation for the bill of materials for PS5, taken from Reddit:

28u1tZw.jpg


Any thoughts?
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That ReRAM pricing is hyper-suspect. It would not be that cheap, unless it is being implemented as a storage-class solution (i.e closer to NAND in flexibility). But even in that case it is too cheap; the price for 128GB of it would be closer to at least $128, and that's being generous. And yes that is also considering Sony manufacturing it themselves.

Otherwise its unrealistic; ReRAM will not be cheaper per GB than NAND, especially not anytime for the next few years. 3D Xpoint, a comparable technology, is also more expensive per GB than NAND (this includes SLC NAND). Also it's debatable if they could get 12.5 GB/s read/write performance for NAND-style ReRAM implementation; that's require at least x7 PCIe 4.0 compatible lanes (or x4 SRIO 4.2 compatible lanes, but last I checked AMD Ryzen cores don't support SRIO natively because it's not even really used on consumer electronic devices). If the Ryzen cores PS5 and XSEX are based on will be the mobile variant, I doubt they have that many lanes built into them.

Could Sony customize more lanes supported? Sure, but then that brings up TDP questions. If anyone's interested I did a post a while ago pricing out probable rates of per GB into ReRAM based off of 3D Xpoint. This was for DRAM-compatible type over a DRAM controller, though; you could halve the prices listed for a more storage-like version of it but still the fact remains, it sure as shit won't cost them as little as $38 to produce xD.

....as for PS5 and (non-embedded) ReRAM...

It's actually somewhat possible it can happen. I mentioned before but let's do it again: Intel sells DC Persistent Memory (DRAM-style implementation) Optane memory to server markets at 128GB for about $842 (low end) to $893 (high end). Per GB breaks down to $6.58 - $6.97. If we liken the pricing model to, say, modern GPUs, we can assume that Intel sells to server markets for 2.5x increase over the actual BOM. So the potential actual production costs per GB of DC PCM is more like $2.63 - $2.77.

However, since these are enterprise big data and server markets, they may actually pay a larger premium for the components, so let's reduce the per GB MSRP by 3x. That would potentially leave production costs per GB to $2.19 - $2.31. And let's assume ReRAM, being a comparable technology with somewhat better performance, has a max 5% additional cost to that. So that would leave per GB cost of ReRAM production for a company like Sony (who likely wouldn't need to license out an IP since IIRC they already make some ReRAM of their own) to around $2.29 - $2.42.

$2.29 to $2.42, for one GB of ReRAM. Now let's say Sony has a BOM per PS5 set to $600 (and they're planning to sell at $499). 64GB of ReRAM would only cost them about $146.56 - $154.88 to implement. Comparatively that's not TOO much more than they're looking to pay for, say, 24GB of GDDR6, and would still leave them with between $445.12 and $453.44 to cover the rest of the system components and production costs. That's likely more than plenty.

And I'm simply being conservative with the cost per GB to manufacture; at the quantities Sony would produce ReRAM for, and the fact they could likely handle most of the production themselves and won't need to license out an IP, they could probably see closer to a reduction on MSRP by 3.5x in terms of actual per GB production costs. That would see actual per GB production costs down to $1.97 - $2.08. (factoring in a 5% additional cost vs. Intel's tech). So in such a case, 64GB of ReRAM would cost them about $126.08 to $133.12 which in turn would leave them with even more of the BOM for other components, maybe even a bit more ReRAM if they felt like it.

Anyone still saying ReRAM for PS5 is virtually impossible (or even something analogous to it for XSEX; MS still hasn't revealed all the specs yet) isn't seeing the forest from the trees. It's a real possibility, and would offer a hefty bump in overall system performance while also offering something that is not present on the PC side at this moment and likely won't be until after these systems launch. For reference, the only similar offering in the consumer PC space is Intel's slower storage-style Optane memory that's closer to NAND than DRAM in terms of performance, but still notably faster than NAND. It's offered in 32GB and 64GB capacities but has only seen "very soft" uptake from PC consumers, mainly because of the fact there aren't any games or multimedia software designed with its use in mind, leaving it appealing mainly only for content creators.

Don't be surprised if you see a ReRAM implementation in PS5 around reveal time and/or MS mentions something like it present in the XSEX (possibly in partnership with Intel). I think the problem some are having in comprehending this being a possibility is that they're thinking of ReRAM like another take on conventional RAM. No, that's not quite what ReRAM is. It doesn't compare whatsoever with HBM, GDDR6 or even upcoming DDR5 in terms of speed and latency, which is why it's viewed more as "hovering" closer to a cold storage solution but still "hot" enough in performance to line up with older volatile memories like DDR4. Of course, it has the permanent storage capabilities of a SSD or HDD, just with much better endurance levels, read, and write capabilies than the NAND in general SSDs.

If you don't view it as an "L5" cache similar to what GDDR6 will be in the upcoming systems (I'm assuming they'll have some off-chip L4 cache in MBs; if not then the GDDR6/DDR4 etc. you can just say are the L4 cache), but as an "L6 cache" sitting between the GDDR6 and NAND-based SSD (which would be the "L7" or cold-storage cache level), then that helps a lot in seeing its role in the system architecture. And again, we're just talking non-embedded ReRAM in this (embedded ReRAM is something of a different topic).
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bitbydeath said:
Even if it were true then we haven't seen what's final and Prospero also part of the same rumour is said to be the biggest compute leap ever made.
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That's the thing. It's pretty much 99% true. The codename Prospero is coming from the same leak that had the PS5 devkit pic, and the latter is confirmed to be true, while the former isn't really AFAIK. So if we dig deeper we can see that all those codenames, including Gonzalo(apu id), Ariel, Oberon, Flute etc. All are interconnected. Believe it or not, those are characters from Shakespeare's The Tempest. Regarding it being "the biggest compute jump", well we all know those PR talks and devs being excited by new hardware and in no way am I trying to dismiss what PS5 will be capable of, it'll be a great machine for sure, just not on the level of XSX going by all the info on table. Also it could honestly be interpreted in many different ways, ie I/O speeds, those are vastly more improved over this gen, so the statement is true, but doesn't really give much info beyond what we already know.
 
Agnostic2020 said:
WCFF redactor (with 100 % proven track record)has tweeted komachi that he knows AMD is making a big Navi gpu for ps5 . The 40 cu Navi rumor for PS5 hopefully dies now.
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Lol 100% proven track record, he is more wrong then right, although he did have good sources on Navi cards so there is that.
 
Haxxor777 said:
That's the thing. It's pretty much 99% true. The codename Prospero is coming from the same leak that had the PS5 devkit pic, and the latter is confirmed to be true, while the former isn't really AFAIK. So if we dig deeper we can see that all those codenames, including Gonzalo(apu id), Ariel, Oberon, Flute etc. All are interconnected. Believe it or not, those are characters from Shakespeare's The Tempest. Regarding it being "the biggest compute jump", well we all know those PR talks and devs being excited by new hardware and in no way am I trying to dismiss what PS5 will be capable of, it'll be a great machine for sure, just not on the level of XSX going by all the info on table. Also it could honestly be interpreted in many different ways, ie I/O speeds, those are vastly more improved over this gen, so the statement is true, but doesn't really give much info beyond what we already know.
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Oberon is not from The Tempest.
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Otherwise its unrealistic; ReRAM will not be cheaper per GB than NAND, especially not anytime for the next few years.
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Yes. Just from a business perspective - it will/does outperform flash, so it will be priced more expensively .. just because..

However - it's possible, not totally unlikely, that 3DXpoint type memories (both Optane and SonyReRAM) will ultimately be cheaper to produce than flash, as the "unit cell" per bit is simpler .. but that's a way off, and also requires economies of scale.

In a fanboy's wet dream Sony ignores potential profit from ReRAM, and adds the tech to PS5 at cost to give technical superiority .. (I don't believe this)
 
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Aceofspades said:
Maybe Klee said that on behalf of the TF jump being 2x Xbox one X ? Which he thought is small? While in reality, its fantastic.
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I dunno, he said it at times when people expected 8-9TF RDNA max (August).

I dont trust him, think he is making stuff up for his yt channel. I do trust Usman, and he has got good sources on Navi and him saying half of stuff back in 2017/2018 (when Raja was there) was dedicated for PS5 has to be taken with notice. Klee, Klee changed the story far too many times for me to trust him. Especially after his Alaska adventure and 12hr night shifts after saying he has specs on his hand.
 
R600 said:
Nothing has died yet and MS confirmed nothing.

Im still holding onto what Klee said - specs will not impress us, but games will.
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R600 said:
I dunno, he said it at times when people expected 8-9TF RDNA max (August).

I dont trust him, think he is making stuff up for his yt channel. I do trust Usman, and he has got good sources on Navi and him saying half of stuff back in 2017/2018 (when Raja was there) was dedicated for PS5 has to be taken with notice. Klee, Klee changed the story far too many times for me to trust him. Especially after his Alaska adventure and 12hr night shifts after saying he has specs on his hand.
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Youre holding onto what Klee said and you dont trust him?
 
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Racer43 said:
Youre holding onto what Klee said and you dont trust him?
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I am being sarcastic of course. I am of the opinion that he has no idea what is inside of these consoles. And to prove it, I posted his quote that says people will be disappointed with specs, when now it is supposed to be 12TF+ (which would disappoint no one).
 
R600 said:
I am being sarcastic of course. I am of the opinion that he has no idea what is inside of these consoles. And to prove it, I posted his quote that says people will be disappointed with specs, when now it is supposed to be 12TF+ (which would disappoint no one).
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:messenger_poop:
 
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R600 said:
I am being sarcastic of course. I am of the opinion that he has no idea what is inside of these consoles. And to prove it, I posted his quote that says people will be disappointed with specs, when now it is supposed to be 12TF+ (which would disappoint no one).
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Maybe he thinks it's a disappointment because it's just a 2-3x jump only from Pro and X. And the real jump to look at is SSD, no loading times and other stuff etc.
 
R600 said:
I dunno, he said it at times when people expected 8-9TF RDNA max (August).

I dont trust him, think he is making stuff up for his yt channel. I do trust Usman, and he has got good sources on Navi and him saying half of stuff back in 2017/2018 (when Raja was there) was dedicated for PS5 has to be taken with notice. Klee, Klee changed the story far too many times for me to trust him. Especially after his Alaska adventure and 12hr night shifts after saying he has specs on his hand.
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Nobody expected 8-9TF RDNA max except you. You're a laughing stock. You don't trust him yet you still going on about what he said, lol.
 
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demigod said:
Nobody expected 8-9TF RDNA max except you. You're a laughing stock. You don't trust him yet you still going on about what he said, lol.
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Well, entire resetera did when he made that post (August 2019), so you are wrong. So, I am going on about what he said because he changes his tune every few weeks, without ever actually being exact.

He never provided shit. Only thing he did provide is that he cannot post specs duo to him working 12hr night shifts in Alaska.
 
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R600 said:
Well, entire resetera did when he made that post (August 2019), so you are wrong. So, I am going on about what he said because he changes his tune every few weeks, without ever actually being exact.

He never provided shit. Only thing he did provide is that he cannot post specs duo to him working 12hr night shifts in Alaska.
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Sorry pal, this isn't era. And people here were speculating 9+ TF.
 
Haxxor777 said:
That's the thing. It's pretty much 99% true. The codename Prospero is coming from the same leak that had the PS5 devkit pic, and the latter is confirmed to be true, while the former isn't really AFAIK. So if we dig deeper we can see that all those codenames, including Gonzalo(apu id), Ariel, Oberon, Flute etc. All are interconnected. Believe it or not, those are characters from Shakespeare's The Tempest. Regarding it being "the biggest compute jump", well we all know those PR talks and devs being excited by new hardware and in no way am I trying to dismiss what PS5 will be capable of, it'll be a great machine for sure, just not on the level of XSX going by all the info on table. Also it could honestly be interpreted in many different ways, ie I/O speeds, those are vastly more improved over this gen, so the statement is true, but doesn't really give much info beyond what we already know.
Click to expand...

If you really think that Sony is going to launch a less powerful machine than Xbox X Series, I think you're going to have a big surprise.
 
R600 said:
Sorry pal, but Klee talked to Era, and not people on Gaf. So his comment makes no sense if consoles are 12-13tf.
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In non if generations gpu jump was 2 to 3 times it was much higher . Maybe thats why he feels people aill be dissapointed ? You are holding onto a nonnsense .

Xsx 12.08 tf and ps5 12.94 tf
 
Haxxor777 said:
That's the thing. It's pretty much 99% true. The codename Prospero is coming from the same leak that had the PS5 devkit pic, and the latter is confirmed to be true, while the former isn't really AFAIK. So if we dig deeper we can see that all those codenames, including Gonzalo(apu id), Ariel, Oberon, Flute etc. All are interconnected. Believe it or not, those are characters from Shakespeare's The Tempest. Regarding it being "the biggest compute jump", well we all know those PR talks and devs being excited by new hardware and in no way am I trying to dismiss what PS5 will be capable of, it'll be a great machine for sure, just not on the level of XSX going by all the info on table. Also it could honestly be interpreted in many different ways, ie I/O speeds, those are vastly more improved over this gen, so the statement is true, but doesn't really give much info beyond what we already know.
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All what u said is cool and all but non of those oberon or gonzalo or ariel leaks show total cu count. Which means u dont kniw the total TF
 
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R600 said:
Maybe, but back then people dreamed for 10TF RDNA, let alone 12-13.
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It should be obvious that Sony will be looking to take PSVR to the next level as opposed to picking random numbers out of the air.

It'll be whatever takes to accomplish that which I believe is 4K120/240FPS.
 
If anything, those latest tweets by Komachi prove that he is confused as hell by AMD naming scheme, he is confusing Navi iterations and asking questions just like any of us. Why would anybody take him as a reliable insider is beyond me tbh.
 
Aceofspades said:
If anything, those latest tweets by Komachi prove that he is confused as hell by AMD naming scheme, he is confusing Navi iterations and asking questions just like any of us. Why would anybody take him as a reliable insider is beyond me tbh.
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That post is in October, how did people miss that. Funny how R600 was using komachi as ammo but now all he has are blank shells.

What I think happened is, komachi got old info, probably the chips that were supposed to be for 2019.
 
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Aceofspades said:
If anything, those latest tweets by Komachi prove that he is confused as hell by AMD naming scheme, he is confusing Navi iterations and asking questions just like any of us. Why would anybody take him as a reliable insider is beyond me tbh.
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Theres a Twitter account of an Xbox fanboy who are so confident that ps5 Will have 40CUs only based on the info of this komachi.

I really like the Idea of series X being 12tf and ps5 similar to that. People who support Sony do want Xbox to be that powerful with ps5 having a slight advantage. But some of these Xbox fanboys are really conspiring about PS5 being like midgen hardware Very underpowered against series X because thats what they want to. Its pretty sad How fanatics these guys can be.

Xbox one with ALL the Crazy talk about dual gpu and the cloud really hitted them hard
 
CameFromNearFuture said:
Theres a Twitter account of an Xbox fanboy who are so confident that ps5 Will have 40CUs only based on the info of this komachi.

I really like the Idea of series X being 12tf and ps5 similar to that. People who support Sony do want Xbox to be that powerful with ps5 having a slight advantage. But some of these Xbox fanboys are really conspiring about PS5 being like midgen hardware Very underpowered against series X because thats what they want to. Its pretty sad How fanatics these guys can be.

Xbox one with ALL the Crazy talk about dual gpu and the cloud really hitted them hard
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It's probably 10% difference but these xbox fanboys make it sound like Xbox will have 40% advantage, lol.
 
demigod said:
It's probably 10% difference but these xbox fanboys make it sound like Xbox will have 40% advantage, lol.
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We Can not know for sure wich one has an advantage over the other.

They both Will be released at almost the same time so both having some few advantages and disavantages here and there but being equally powerfulls is what we can expect. Its Common Sense.
 
Agnostic2020 said:
All what u said is cool and all but non of those oberon or gonzalo or ariel leaks show total cu count. Which means u dont kniw the total TF
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Good point. What we know tho is that it's based on navi 10 lite arch, so max is 40 CUs(pic 1) then count the yields and we are down to 36CUs max, from here what you get at let's say 2.0 ghz clocks is just around 9-10TF. But that's not that feasible from a TDP standpoint, or at least real hard to pull off unless there's a state of the art cooling system. So realistically clocks will be at at 1.8ghz or so. Reasonable enough? Also Komachi firestrike revealed ~20k for gonzalo, PS4 around 5k, make of that what you will.
TGTXXZb.png


DWuKnP6.png
 
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Haxxor777 said:
Good point. What we know tho is that it's based on navi 10 lite arch, so max is 40 CUs(pic 1) then count the yields and we are down to 36CUs max, from here what you get at let's say 2.0 ghz clocks is just around 9-10TF. But that's not that feasible from a TDP standpoint, or at least real hard to pull off unless there's a state of the art cooling system. So realistically clocks will be at at 1.8ghz or so. Reasonable enough? Also Komachi firestrike revealed ~20k for gonzalo, PS4 around 5k, make of that what you will.
TGTXXZb.png


DWuKnP6.png
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I meant Apisak not komachi lul.
 
R600 said:
Btw this was first PS5 report we had. Sounded a bit far fetched considering when dev kits where released.

semiaccurate.com

SemiAcccurate gets some Playstation 5/Next details

Semiaccurate is back with a bang, and that bang is Sony Playstation 5/Next specs and timetables.
semiaccurate.com semiaccurate.com
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Is there a summary of what was posted? I don't think I can view that article.

Haxxor777 said:
Good point. What we know tho is that it's based on navi 10 lite arch, so max is 40 CUs(pic 1) then count the yields and we are down to 36CUs max.
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Navi 10 LITE is not 40 CU, that's only Navi 10. The LITE variant is actually supposed to be a very different product. We don't really know a lot about that one...
 
SgtCaffran said:
Is there a summary of what was posted? I don't think I can view that article.


Navi 10 LITE is not 40 CU, that's only Navi 10. The LITE variant is actually supposed to be a very different product. We don't really know a lot about that one...
Click to expand...
AFAIK it's heavily based off of the base model, so I'm pretty sure it's very similar.
 
Jason Schreier himself confirmed that both machines were ahead of Stadia. Some Xbox users are twisting the data and clinging to a burning nail since several insiders felt that PS5 was slightly more powerful than Xbox X Series.

If PS5 is finally more powerful, will we talk about a hidden dGPU on Xbox?
 
Haxxor777 said:
Good point. What we know tho is that it's based on navi 10 lite arch, so max is 40 CUs(pic 1) then count the yields and we are down to 36CUs max, from here what you get at let's say 2.0 ghz clocks is just around 9-10TF. But that's not that feasible from a TDP standpoint, or at least real hard to pull off unless there's a state of the art cooling system. So realistically clocks will be at at 1.8ghz or so. Reasonable enough? Also Komachi firestrike revealed ~20k for gonzalo, PS4 around 5k, make of that what you will.
TGTXXZb.png


DWuKnP6.png
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That Navi 21 is looking more real now.
 
Sony Always had the philosophy of incorporating ALL types of futuristic technology even If It means releasing a product that not many might be able to buy at the original price. They did that with the PS3 and bluray Disc and they keep doing that investing tons of money on VR.

Now, as for Ray tracing goes, we've been hearing about this supposedly revolutionary technology of building life like games since the early PS3 days. Theres even an ancient video about Cell simulating it.

I Find It comic and a bit absurd How some people literally treat Sony, the leading Company on game industry for so many years now, like a complete amatuer, like they dont know that the time for RT to become a reality is now, with zero vision and knowledge, or that they simply dont Care about It or dont have resources and competence to build a strong gpu that supports this so hyped tech in a legit way (hw based).

Its unbelievable. Im starting to get worried about How some of these people would react at Sony annoucing a 12-13tf gpu.
 
chemical boy said:
Jason Schreier himself confirmed that both machines were ahead of Stadia. Some Xbox users are twisting the data and clinging to a burning nail since several insiders felt that PS5 was slightly more powerful than Xbox X Series.

If PS5 is finally more powerful, will we talk about a hidden dGPU on Xbox?
Click to expand...

No its all about the balance and exponential power of the cloud just ask Milo 😂😂😂
 
Haxxor777 said:
AFAIK it's heavily based off of the base model, so I'm pretty sure it's very similar.
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So that's already an incorrect statement. Navi 10 lite is not a variant of navi 10. They are different products with unique product codes, mentioned by komachi tweet as well.

They just happen to have a very similar and confusing name. I think that had something to do with the navi numbers representing the order in which the projects were started.

So we have no idea what number of CUs the PS5 has, only that clocks of 1.8 and 2.0GHz have been tested. And 52 CU was rumored but only from one half verified source.
 
CameFromNearFuture said:
Sony Always had the philosophy of incorporating ALL types of futuristic technology even If It means releasing a product that not many might be able to buy at the original price. They did that with the PS3 and bluray Disc and they keep doing that investing tons of money on VR.

Now, as for Ray tracing goes, we've been hearing about this supposedly revolutionary technology of building life like games since the early PS3 days. Theres even an ancient video about Cell simulating it.

I Find It comic and a bit absurd How some people literally treat Sony, the leading Company on game industry for so many years now, like a complete amatuer, like they dont know that the time for RT to become a reality is now, with zero vision and knowledge, or that they simply dont Care about It or dont have resources and competence to build a strong gpu that supports this so hyped tech in a legit way (hw based).

Its unbelievable. Im starting to get worried about How some of these people would react at Sony annoucing a 12-13tf gpu.
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You think Sony can out do nvidia all of a sudden. Jesus I get being fan but this going way to far. They will be limited in RT to what AMD is offering with some tweaks. This won't compete with the shear transistors nvidia tosses at the problem with tensor cores and other items. Sure it might out do MS great but it still is a distant second to nvidia. Then each iteration of cards that improve on the solution. This is really first generation RT. In 4 years it will perform much better with techniques we never thought of today. Look where shading started and vast improvements in techniques over the years. The huge breakthroughs like unified shaders in xenos. We can respect what Sony has done with being realistic. This won't compete with what nvidia does
 
SgtCaffran said:
So that's already an incorrect statement. Navi 10 lite is not a variant of navi 10. They are different products with unique product codes, mentioned by komachi tweet as well.

They just happen to have a very similar and confusing name. I think that had something to do with the navi numbers representing the order in which the projects were started.

So we have no idea what number of CUs the PS5 has, only that clocks of 1.8 and 2.0GHz have been tested. And 52 CU was rumored but only from one half verified source.
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Is it? Could you provide info on that? Haven't seen myself.
 
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