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YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
Keep dreaming. We don't even know if the ps5 can hold the ridiculous gpu clocks they have stated so the raw performance difference could be as much as 20%-25%. Also, where is the VRS? If that is exclusive to Microsoft and accounts to a 10%-15% FPS advantage alone at higher resolutions then we may see a multi platform performance bloodbath in Cavour if the series x. I guess we will find out later this year.
cragarmi
Member
I stand by what I have said, there are PS5 devkits with 13tf RDNA hardware, reason being devs needed hardware before custom IO chips were ready, efficiency gains from this stuff are not marginal. 3rd Parties are seeing similar performance from both systems, within 10%, so this is not a case of the cell all over again, it's not difficult to take advantage of, all the heavy lifting is done for you!. But I agree, this was not a good way to reveal the system Sony. This type of talk should have been delivered privately to devs only, with more granular detail, until the games were ready to show these differences to consumers.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
When's the next big "event" that we know of now? E3 timeframe?
I would imagine that come next showing, you will see a completely different Sony, a total 180 to this... whatever you want to call this way of showing off your product is.
I would imagine that come next showing, you will see a completely different Sony, a total 180 to this... whatever you want to call this way of showing off your product is.
Throttle
Member
16% performance difference is not even enough to have 1800p on one and 2160p on the other, that would require 40% performance difference. What we are talking about here amounts to 1440p VS 1512p, at most 1620p (maybe that would be too much). I think Xbox fans will be very disappointed when the Digital Foundry comparisons start rolling out.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Honestly I'm tired of this shit.
If they want to show their product properly they will do eventually, if not fuck them. I will not wait anymore, the day they will publish a game trailer or something I will be there, that's it.
ZywyPL
Banned
Kids are seriously downplaying those 10TFlops, bare in mind X1X is already as strong, if not stronger, then what most people have in their PCs with GF1050-1060/RX460-570, let alone the PS5. And with how effective RDNA is we are talking about equivalent of 3-4x more capable GPU than PS4 Pro, or over twice of the mentioned X1X.
Pure TFlops aren't the issue, it's everything that surrounds it - 36CU isn't much, but high clocks can make up for it, and as Cerny said, all the other components run faster as a result as well, so at the end of the day everything is OK. But that being said - XBX will simply have more of those additional components, like ROPs, TMUs etc., (that still run at not so shabby 1.8GHz), and the biggest game changer - number of RT engines assigned to each CU. And Cerny basically already suggested that RT performance will be struggling/underwhelming, so as a result, XBX will be able to offload lightning, shadow or reflection calculations onto those RT engines (with theoretical 13TF-worth accuracy/details), whereas PS5 will have to sacrifice some of those 10TF for those tasks.
Plus all the additional features XBX has like VRS, DirectML etc. that will offload CU calculations even further, so on paper there's 2-3TF difference already, but in practice the difference might be actually even bigger.
The worst PS5 design decision is the shared TDP between CPU and GPU, so they will never be able to run at their max clock, and what's worse - Cerny said the solution doesn't take the generated heat into consideration at all, so yet another jet engine is about to be expected.
I understand they were aiming for a balance between the price and performance, just as with PS4/Pro, hence going for a smaller APU, but the SSD and 16GB of GDDR6 will have their cost nevertheless, the leaked BOM listed ~470$ total production cost, so maybe Sony will eat up a slight loss and sell the PS5 at 449, or something like 469-479 to break even, but I honestly cannot imagine 399 as some of the fanboys here just because the console is slightly weaker than XBX. The GPU is smaller sure, but everything else is almost exactly the same, same CPU, same RAM, same UHD BD, with SSD probably being even more expensive than XBX counterpart. And we don't know the full features and cost of DS5 yet, so maybe even 449$ in reality is a wet dream.
On the other hand, XBX for 499 will be a steal, 549 seems more feasible - not only the APU is bigger, but is has twin motherboards, which are also connected via metal heat sink between them, so that design boosts up the production price as well aside of beefier specs.
At the end of the day the games will do the judgement, but I expect all the multiplatform titles to aim for XBX SSD and PS5 CPU and GPU, so they can make just one version of the game that will run without any issues on both platforms. And I expect PCs to see more and more delayed releases because of the devs having to rebuild the games around HDDs that vast majority of people have.
PS. How many likes/retweets the PS5 reveal has?
Pure TFlops aren't the issue, it's everything that surrounds it - 36CU isn't much, but high clocks can make up for it, and as Cerny said, all the other components run faster as a result as well, so at the end of the day everything is OK. But that being said - XBX will simply have more of those additional components, like ROPs, TMUs etc., (that still run at not so shabby 1.8GHz), and the biggest game changer - number of RT engines assigned to each CU. And Cerny basically already suggested that RT performance will be struggling/underwhelming, so as a result, XBX will be able to offload lightning, shadow or reflection calculations onto those RT engines (with theoretical 13TF-worth accuracy/details), whereas PS5 will have to sacrifice some of those 10TF for those tasks.
Plus all the additional features XBX has like VRS, DirectML etc. that will offload CU calculations even further, so on paper there's 2-3TF difference already, but in practice the difference might be actually even bigger.
The worst PS5 design decision is the shared TDP between CPU and GPU, so they will never be able to run at their max clock, and what's worse - Cerny said the solution doesn't take the generated heat into consideration at all, so yet another jet engine is about to be expected.
I understand they were aiming for a balance between the price and performance, just as with PS4/Pro, hence going for a smaller APU, but the SSD and 16GB of GDDR6 will have their cost nevertheless, the leaked BOM listed ~470$ total production cost, so maybe Sony will eat up a slight loss and sell the PS5 at 449, or something like 469-479 to break even, but I honestly cannot imagine 399 as some of the fanboys here just because the console is slightly weaker than XBX. The GPU is smaller sure, but everything else is almost exactly the same, same CPU, same RAM, same UHD BD, with SSD probably being even more expensive than XBX counterpart. And we don't know the full features and cost of DS5 yet, so maybe even 449$ in reality is a wet dream.
On the other hand, XBX for 499 will be a steal, 549 seems more feasible - not only the APU is bigger, but is has twin motherboards, which are also connected via metal heat sink between them, so that design boosts up the production price as well aside of beefier specs.
At the end of the day the games will do the judgement, but I expect all the multiplatform titles to aim for XBX SSD and PS5 CPU and GPU, so they can make just one version of the game that will run without any issues on both platforms. And I expect PCs to see more and more delayed releases because of the devs having to rebuild the games around HDDs that vast majority of people have.
PS. How many likes/retweets the PS5 reveal has?
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, indeed E3. Wondering if Microsoft might drop info on Lockhart before that. To keep the hype going, would be weird to stop this marketing campaign for 3 months, right? Maybe they'll already show some games or demos.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
That's what I was thinking. MS have been on fire with their marketing and info drops, it's all been totally on point. And even though the PS5 isn't the disaster some think it is, what Sony have done this far is anything but ideal, it's shockingly bad, from a presentation point of view.
So I fully expect Sony to come out guns blazing at some point very soon to try and dampen the blow of this, which means Ms likely think the same and will no doubt want to counter that.
I can't see them both staying quiet until e3, not now.
Throttle
Member
But 1440p to 4K is more than double the pixels! It would be a bigger gap then the 900p VS 1080p of X one to PS4, and those had a 40% Tflop difference, apart from the much faster memory on PS4. How would that be the case?
Fatal Enigma
Member
I would assume, there will be another writeup geared toward more layman style
because that yesterday was "awkward". Then both doing digital events. Specs out of the way,
lets see games games games (and what a ps5 looks like)
cragarmi
Member
They don't need Lockhart this year, save that till next year once the 'hardcore' have bought your latest and greatest, and keep supplies up.
squidilix
Member
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Makes sense, but the longer you wait the less need there is for a 1080p console.
Neo Blaster
Member
They better have a 180, Sony have a solid product, but their messaging is awful. Cerny's presentation should have come after a proper reveal with demos and games, just like the one on 2013. The only reason I can think they didn't do it is because they don't want to divert attention from the incoming PS4 blockbusters coming till June.
VFXVeteran
Banned
A lot of games this past gen had weird framebuffer resolutions so it might be an arbitrary resolution before scaling up. I just picked 1440p because it's easily divisible. At this point, we are all guessing. Something I don't like doing.
01011001
Banned
30% less Raytracing hardware, that will be the more interesting part when it comes to comparing the 2
also people who watch DF videos just to see their box win are beyond ridiculous lol. I get it if you wanna know which version to get, or if the version for your system has major issues (see Control at launch). but actually just sitting there like it's a sports event lol, kind of a funny though imo.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
For now, they basically sacrified next gen for old gen exclusives. On the long term is nuts, they need to do something about it. They will probably, but for now we will sucks a lot of doubts and waiting again.
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Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Possible... possible...
But then, I'm of the opinion here that maybe they should have just not said anything at all like this. They couldn't do an info drop, because people will only see the numbers, as this all proves.
It was a tricky position to be in really, I don't envy them. Personally, the only way forward now is to let the tech do the talking. But as you said... to do that, means people may look at the upcoming games and go "oh, this looks shit now" lol.
Really weird situation to be in for them. I honestly don't know what their best strategy is here.
Agnostic2020
Member
BTW I just listened again to cerny about clocks under heavy load .
"10 % reduction on power consumption by lowering the clock by 2% at maximum "
Where is the 10% down clock comes from?
10% reduction is for electricity not gpu clock
"10 % reduction on power consumption by lowering the clock by 2% at maximum "
Where is the 10% down clock comes from?
10% reduction is for electricity not gpu clock
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how much is a good set of noise cancelling headphones? cant be doing with jet engine fan spoiling my glorious 3d audio
cragarmi
Member
Yes it's a clever implementation, which not many people seemed to grasp, which we will likely see in the PC GPU space to allow for some absurd clocks not long from now, as Cerny hinted at, also likely the reason we had rumors of RDNA2 being developed 'for' Sony.
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Thedtrain
Member
Exactly. It'll be 9.9tf or just at 10tf all of the time.
I agree with most here they should have kept this to devs only. Most of the people watching have no idea what half of that presentation meant.
Hopefully Sony's PR goes into panic mode and forces a demo or 2 to leak
Darius87
Member
yea but i kind a know reason why he's was trolling at first he said ps5 is 9.2Tflops xsex 12tTlops then there was lot resistance against ps5 leak me including because i thought 9.2 in 2019 would make sense but it was revealed for 2020 holidays, then suddenly tommy switched ps5 to 13 Tflops just to troll ps fans.
but he says otherwise i quote:
I was never once doubtful of my source otherwise I wouldn't post them.
how can you trust your sources but doubt in data they provide? and he says it first hand info.
basically he contradicts himself.
if he thinks he can post here as insider without vetted that's his mistake , now he has to eat a crow, and get banned. end of story. that's what happened to many of these fake insiders but not to him as for now..
Agnostic2020
Member
Yea 10 to 10.3 tf at all times . And even he said the 2% drop barely happens when we reach the critical heavy load
This is probably the most interesting and controversial feature. We will wait for developers and digital foundry for more info. Because:
1. CPU can run at 3.5 ghz and GPU at 9.2 or 9.6 tflops
2. CPU can run at 3.2 ghz and GPU at 10.2 tflops;
3. CPU can runt at 3.4 ghz and GPU at 10 tflops.
So many scenarios.
joe_zazen
Member
you are right. Showing stunning next gen games will make ps4 games look bad, hence jak and daxter being in the talk. They want maximum hype for last of us, not people saying wait for next gen.
the tlou2 delay may have torpedoed their strategy, but they had to release this GDC talk to devs because they need to talk to devs. Maybe tlou2 will be worth it, but as of now, ps5 excitement is pretty low and that is 100% down to Sony's lack of marketing, which imo has been done to protect tlou2 sales.
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YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
Microsoft should put out theoretical peak TF numbers as a fairer contrast between the systems. Would probably be around 14.5TF running at the same clocks as ps5.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
I said I doubted the DATA of the memory being a bit odd, NOT the source, which would be the person. I had no reason to doubt the flops, Cu count and speed, they seemed to reflect what others were saying too. (And again, the original data they gave me was pretty much spot on, and they have me the 5th date hint, which was true as well) The person is as legit as they come as an industry professional, and a person I call a friend.
Though clearly you're having trouble understanding basic things that have already been explained.
Seriously take your vendetta to the ban thread if you really feel like you've been treated poorly. This is just childish now.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Ok, seems I need to repeat.
He doesn't doubt his fucking source for sure, it's a first party source. He doesn't doubt it OVERALL, he's not gonna thinking like "oh but it is really first party? Uhm..."
What he can doubt are specific infos, because the sources are humans who may be jocking because they don't want to loose their jobs. He doesn't know.
He thinks he can post here as a proved dev and say he knows people working on PS5, and he's right. You know why? Because Mod of War didn't ban him for months, and did well, because O'dium do not have devkits so it's infos are not demostrable in a sense that he can directly post a photo of PS5 with specs from his office, and his sources are NOT gonna give him that anyway.
According to him, all he has are voices from other devs directly connected to PS5, but because he himself doesn't have PS5 he could be right in not wanting to be vetted. Easy.
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Nice to program for. Anyway for a 399 machine they did a great job.
TTOOLL
Member
You can't have 14.5TF if your GPU doesn't clock at 2.23GHz.
Agnostic2020
Member
If it reaches the critical situation then based on his comment :
1. CPU can run at 3.5 ghz and GPU at 10.08tf
2. CPU can run at 3.4 ghz and GPU at 10.28 tflops;
3. CPU can runt at 3.45 ghz and GPU at 10.1 tflops.
YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
If the performance difference was so minimal then why wouldn't they just fix the clocks?
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With that tower they will get close.
Agnostic2020
Member
This gives them 10% reduction on electrical consumption by varying the clocks by 2% in rare stances and that can calm the system so it doesn't get loud
01011001
Banned
the interesting thing will be how sustainable it is for developers to run both at max clocks... because it very much sounds like that's not really feasible for many games.
and I wonder how many developers will chose CPU over GPU especially since the Series X will have a CPU advantage of up to 300MHz, and Multiplatform releases that push CPUs will possibly have to sacrifice GPU speed on PS5.
pairing back graphics is way easier than pairing back game logic after all.
it will be very interesting to see the effects of these dynamic clock speeds, especially once developers are able to talk freely about it all.
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Its not just about cooling to reach a given clock rate, it would also lower the yields as not all chips would reach it. This is the reason I discarded it at first as I thought it wouldnt be possible with such a high clock and a acceptable yield.
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LokusAbriss
Member
This will be a hard choice for cpu heavy games. Big open world games and racing simulations are very cpu intensive.
So, they are forced to chose between more cars/population or higher graphical fidelity.
GTA 6 might need 3.5 Ghz from the cpu, so they are left with ~ 9.5 tflops or so.
The XSX doesnt have that problem.
YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
Wow, ps5 mid gen refresh will be a beast. They will probably do what they did with the pro and double the gpu cu's to retain backwards compatibility. We will probably be talking 20TF+ in 4 years time.
ethomaz
Banned
It is based in what the dev workload is... so devs will choose when and where the GPU and/or CPU will run at max speeds.
It is different from a typical boost that works based in temperature.
Agnostic2020
Member
Ots so minor man .its between 10.08 to 10.28 (2% clock reduction to get 10% lower electrical consumption)
Fulcizombie
Banned
Damn was I right about the bullshit insiders or what ? My short post history is here for anyone to see.
They have disabled CUs for yield.
ethomaz
Banned
Each console has it own set of problems.
What about games that use more than 10GB RAM? Devs will need to deal with slow memory access on Xbox.
On PS5 devs will need to deal with their workload to get the max of the system.
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BGs
Industry Professional
In ideal conditions can be +20GB/s.
Wait, is this serious? Xbox Series X's GPU is only capable of 1.825GHz... unless I'm missing something?
Handy Fake
Member
See I think that's where the SSD speed will come into it.
There's a lot of stuff going on here and I don't think we know the half of it yet.
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