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[Deleted member 775630]

They have similar backing and similar lack of bottomless credit line from them for R&D. Else you would have seen more RAM, all RAM at the same faster speed, more expensive cooling and the highest CPU clocks without having to turn SMT off, etc...

In the interview he did with Phil, he acted like a forum fanboy and constantly tried to get Phil to talk smack as if he were in an Xbox power king meme thread and embarrassed himself, Phil just would not step down to his level and I respect Phil much more after that exchange.
Ryan has zero unbiased "journalistic" credentials.

Gaming journalists in general are always biased... They're only human beings in a community that has split itself up into different camps which is great for clicks and advertising

 

[Darius87]

I assume you guys saw this:


So… the first footage ever of the PS5 is a remake and it's not even presented in a Sony event. Disappointing at least.

that's nowhere near next-gen graphics, neither godfall.

 

[TLZ]

What do you guys think?

That's why the PS5 logo and controller amassed millions more likes and ranked so high on Twitter and Instagram gaming side, Ryan, isn't it?

This silly "Sony is shook" idea they keep pushing is, silly. This guy is coming off way too biased then acts impartial. Companies are usually always silent until E3 (June), when the full reveals happen. It's just MS broke that norm this time around and revealed way earlier than usual. The other company is just sticking to the norm and staying put.

These people (I don't want to call them shills) need to stop pushing and forcing a certain situation that isn't actually happening. They'll just make themselves look silly later.

Also, if you want to be biased, be my guest, it's really ok. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't act impartial because your bias will show no matter how hard you try to hide it. There's no reason to hide it. Be proud of it. It's you. You can be biased and still be respectful.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

That Ryan McCaffrey really got under some people's skin... He just wrote an opinion piece on his personal twitter account, and most of what he says is one of many valid strategies that Microsoft could take, but won't.

 

[gamerforever]

Mcaffrey is obviously pro xbox, i listen to him on the xbox podcast. It is quite hilarious that these guys don't get that the ps5 will outsell the series x by a margin of 2 to 1 even if it's £100 more expensive. The casuals don't really want an xbox. Microsoft aren't forward thinking and are just relying on power to win the battle. I thought maybe they might have had a chance, but then the dualsense got revealed and the rest was history.

 

[Radical_3d]

that's nowhere near next-gen graphics, neither godfall.

That's because Sony is making a shitty job controlling the message.

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

This guy really needs Xbox sells more. If I remember 7 years ago he said the 720 looks exactly as 1080p or not ? because the difference between
xbox one and ps4 was big.

Also since when a company is immune to a pandemic ?

And also the position in sales still favorable to Sony not Xbox, so is no like Sony need to promise to sell a quantity unrealistic to have a good price in
other side is Microsoft which needs to promise that just even reach quantity of parts like Sony.

The people who think MIcrosoft will lost money in almost each aspect of their console have a problem, they probably lose money in:

-In the console
-Financing studios which its games will be first day in a cheap service
-In the Gamepass, because is hard to believe is so cheap, even cheaper than netflix when the requirement in servers are a lot more
-Making some of the biggest events compare to the others 2 console makers and you still in last place
-Helping companies like CDProject for marketing even all us know the main economic beneficiaries will be Steam and Sony just look the numbers of TW3

The companies like MIcrosoft doesn't work in the way many people think using the 100% of all its money for an small sector, each section of the company has a budget and
you cannot just ask for more each time if you don't return something more valuable.

Is probably Phil promise to board of directors and CEO X quantity of money in a Y period of time, so if they don't accomplish that well you remember Nokia... I don't
think they reach those extremes but its budget will pay the consequences.

He's a huge fan of Xbox and I don't deduct points from him for being a fan of a particular platform. Just that sometimes I find Ryan's opinions to be way too one sided and favorable towards Xbox over PlayStation, i mean you're a journalist working for a gaming website. At least try to be a bit neutral in your thoughts, duh!

 

[I Love Rock 'n' Roll]

This guy really needs Xbox sells more. If I remember 7 years ago he said the 720 looks exactly as 1080p or not ? because the difference between
xbox one and ps4 was big.

Also since when a company is immune to a pandemic ?

And also the position in sales still favorable to Sony not Xbox, so is no like Sony need to promise to sell a quantity unrealistic to have a good price in
other side is Microsoft which needs to promise that just even reach quantity of parts like Sony.

The people who think MIcrosoft will lost money in almost each aspect of their console have a problem, they probably lose money in:

-In the console
-Financing studios which its games will be first day in a cheap service
-In the Gamepass, because is hard to believe is so cheap, even cheaper than netflix when the requirement in servers are a lot more
-Making some of the biggest events compare to the others 2 console makers and you still in last place
-Helping companies like CDProject for marketing even all us know the main economic beneficiaries will be Steam and Sony just look the numbers of TW3

The companies like MIcrosoft doesn't work in the way many people think using the 100% of all its money for an small sector, each section of the company has a budget and
you cannot just ask for more each time if you don't return something more valuable.

Is probably Phil promise to board of directors and CEO X quantity of money in a Y period of time, so if they don't accomplish that well you remember Nokia... I don't
think they reach those extremes but its budget will pay the consequences.

How old is this guy? 12? Does it matter his fav toy sells more or less? Does he get money on every SX sold? Is he a programmer? Does he really think magic money is a thing?

Great points Metroiddarks !

 

[scie]

How old is this guy? 12? Does it matter his fav toy sells more or less? Does he get money on every SX sold? Is he a programmer? Does he really think magic money is a thing?

Great points Metroiddarks !

Oh yes, this guy and the other Greg Miller (PS guy) who isn´t at IGN anymore were the biggest fanboys of each console

 

[aclar00]

First of all, it is false that it is the first footage of the PS5.

Second, it looks like much better than the last thing we have seen for the XSX

Reminds me of Echo the Dolphin on Genesis.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

Yeah if they existed in a vacuum you'd be right.... but they exist in a competitive market co-occupied by fricken' Microsoft. I don't know if you've noticed but they seem a bit more ready for action this time vs the launch of the Xbox One. All of these decisions need to be made with competition in mind or you'll fall flat on your face just like they did in 2013. I'd love the head of Sony proclaiming they are "not a charity" when Microsoft sells a faster machine for the same or less money. I'm not contributing to a charity either. My money will go to who offers me more for it. Sony better show up.

Unless it's not really faster, more powerful, has better games? Because for now, both systems are on quite equal footing. Let the games/developers decide/show which one is superior.

 

[husomc]

Microsoft as a company has always had a lot more money than Sony. Why haven't they used it yet to take most of the market share from Sony?

Maybe they'll use that money to buy their own console from themselves and inflate the numbers. Console war is already won !

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

Maybe they'll use that money to buy their own console from themselves and inflate the numbers. Console war is already won !

And then they are going to use those consoles in their serverfarm for Xcloud streaming service.
Win-Win-Win

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

This XSX dev is something.

Not only the DualSense™ sucks but he's basically blaming Sony for being a pain in the ass

 

[xacto]

-Ask the indie developer where is the video he promised to do (3 weeks ago) about the PS5 bottleneck.

Still waiting.

Every trace left of his professional credibility is completely gone in the first sentence "I don't understand Sony's PS5 hardware."

Then he goes on saying he's going to "post a video that details it" - really? I mean, you really need to get your facts straight, because if you do not understand it, your subsequent actions cannot have too much of an impact, since you're talking about something you don't understand to begin with.

 

[xacto]

This XSX dev is something.

Not only the DualSense™ sucks but he's basically blaming Sony of being a pain in the ass

I know, opposable thumbs are a pain in the back these days, aren't they?!

 

[Shio]

Every trace left of his professional credibility is completely gone in the first sentence "I don't understand Sony's PS5 hardware."

Then he goes on saying he's going to "post a video that details it" - really? I mean, you really need to get your facts straight, because if you do not understand it, your subsequent actions cannot have too much of an impact, since you're talking about something you don't understand to begin with.

Still waiting for that video...

 

[xacto]

Still waiting for that video...

Yes, we will do that for a long time... I am not really holding my breath on this one

 

[HawarMiran]

I know, opposable thumbs are a pain in the back these days, aren't they?!

Look at his game. He is a failure at his profession. He just tries to self-promote. Will not help selling his dogshit game

 

[xacto]

Look at his game. He is a failure at his profession. He just tries to self-promote. Will not help selling his dogshit game

To be completely honest, I don't judge his work, it's what he does and he's obviously more talented at that than me, for instance. What I don't really get is the gall he's got talking about things that apparently fly over his head.

Some people do bite more than they can chew.

 

[FranXico]

This XSX dev is something.

Not only the DualSense™ sucks but he's basically blaming Sony of being a pain in the ass

Just when you thought that this guy could not be any more of a fanboy...

I don't know about his game, could be really good. But this is not professional.

 

[TBiddy]

Just when you thought that this guy could not be any more of a fanboy...

I don't know about his game, could be really good. But this is not professional.

I have previously defended him. No longer. Clearly he's trying to pander to the extreme Xbox fanboys to sell his game.

 

[psorcerer]

Do you think that the PS5's SSD will produce a lot of heat due to its high data transfer rate?

AFAIK, all the real heat is produced in the write phase, because it needs much higher voltage.
If 99% is read (which is the case in consoles) it's not that bad.

 

[B_Boss]

Selling the console at $499 or $549.99 wouldn't be an act of arrogance but of financial security. According to the report, Sony has to sell the console in this price range in order to either break even or make a profit; they don't want to sell at a loss as they did with the PS3. They were able to sell the PS4 at a profitable price from its launch date and naturally want to do so with the PS5. They are not a charity; they are a business.

I could have swore the PS4 sold at a loss?

Sony To Take A Loss On PlayStation 4 Sales

Sony is counting on game sales and PS Plus subscriptions to make the PS4 profitable.

www.forbes.com

...and of course by the following April (2014), Kaz had said the sales were going well:

Sony CEO Kaz Hirai says PS4 is already profitable

Your source for the latest in video games, sci-fi, fantasy, tabletop games, anime, horror, books, and comics.

www.polygon.com

 

[FeiRR]

Do you think that the PS5's SSD will produce a lot of heat due to its high data transfer rate? Also, are SSDs typically able to maintain their maximum speed for long hours?

I don't get the whole concern that an SSD produces heat. Mechanical drives consume about twice as much energy in sustained r/w mode. Have you seen an SSD or memory card with active cooling? I haven't.

That's because Sony is making a shitty job controlling the message.

Wait a second. You're implying that a certain company should limit someone's freedom of speech just because that person uses that company's product? Like Toyota suing you because you took a photo of your car? That's insane.

I know, opposable thumbs are a pain in the back these days, aren't they?!

I wonder where this idea of asymmetrical thumbsticks came from. I don't even pay attention to this difference between controllers.

Look at his game. He is a failure at his profession. He just tries to self-promote. Will not help selling his dogshit game

He's not a professional. He makes games as a hobby. I bet he's very young.

 

[Radical_3d]

Wait a second. You're implying that a certain company should limit someone's freedom of speech just because that person uses that company's product? Like Toyota suing you because you took a photo of your car? That's insane.

The insane and fascinating world of NDAs.

 

[FeiRR]

The insane and fascinating world of NDAs.

So in your opinion they shouldn't allow a developer to announce their game because... I don't know. A few teenagers at some forum will throw shit at each other?

 

[scie]

I don't get the whole concern that an SSD produces heat. Mechanical drives consume about twice as much energy in sustained r/w mode. Have you seen an SSD or memory card with active cooling? I haven't.
[...]

SSDs get very hot under continous load around 80-90°C. They throttle their trouput at this temperatures. This is why especially new Gen4 SSDs come with huge passive cooling

AORUS Unveils Their NVMe Gen 4 SSD With Blazing Fast Read Speeds of 5 GB/s - Up To 2 TB Capacity and Full Copper Heatsink

AORUS unveiled their blazing fast 5 GB/s NVMe Gen 4 SSD which utilizes the PCIe Gen 4 interface. The new NVMe SSD is designed to deliver much faster speeds over traditional PCIe Gen 3 storage devices and also allow delivers better cooling thanks to its all-copper heatsink design. AORUS NVMe Gen...

wccftech.com

Corsair Force Series MP600 1TB NVMe PCIe Gen4 M.2 SSD Review

Corsair's Phison-powered MP600 PCIe Gen4 SSD crushes the competition. Here's our full review.

www.tweaktown.com

 

[B_Boss]

When you look back, PS4 didn't have any genuinely good exclusives in 2013

Well it seems to me that it depends on how much time devs had to work on the games up until launch considering the PS4 launched in November 2013 . Do you feel as though they should've (or could've) had genuinely good exclusives at launch?

Gaming journalists in general are always biased...

That's alright honestly. The issue is when that bias potentially (and negatively) affects your work as a journalist I'd say.

 

[FranXico]

That's alright honestly. The issue is when that bias potentially (and negatively) affects your work as a journalist I'd say.

"Objectivity is a silly thing to strive for"
- J. Schreier

 

[xacto]

"Objectivity is a silly thing to strive for"
- J. Schreier

Objective journalism is the most understated oxymoron of all times.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

That's alright honestly. The issue is when that bias potentially (and negatively) affects your work as a journalist I'd say.

He clearly has an Xbox preference, but is only thinking out loud about how Microsoft should strategically handle their current situation and try to win back market share. He's doing this on his personal twitter account. Sure they are journalists, but it's not like this is posted on IGN website or twitter, there is a difference. People should still have their own opinion for their own accounts when they aren't at work, which is fine by me. And it's not like he said something bad about Sony, it's just a pro Xbox post.

 

[B_Boss]

"Objectivity is a silly thing to strive for"
- J. Schreier

Goodness...what the hell am I thinking then when I read such a quote .

He clearly has an Xbox preference, but is only thinking out loud about how Microsoft should strategically handle their current situation and try to win back market share. He's doing this on his personal twitter account. Sure they are journalists, but it's not like this is posted on IGN website or twitter, there is a difference. People should still have their own opinion for their own accounts when they aren't at work, which is fine by me. And it's not like he said something bad about Sony, it's just a pro Xbox post.

Well personally, I wasn't even thinking of him but certainly responding to someone else. I don't know much about him other than what I've seen from him as posted here but that's all . I definitely agree with the "opinions my own" angle.

 

[CrysisFreak]

This XSX dev is something.

Not only the DualSense™ sucks but he's basically blaming Sony for being a pain in the ass

Try playing Tekken on any other controller than a PlayStation controller see how you like that lmao

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Well personally, I wasn't even thinking of him but certainly responding to someone else. I don't know much about him other than what I've seen from him as posted here but that's all . I definitely agree with the "opinions my own" angle.

Oh you meant that developer that is clearly a fanboy? Yeah he should be ignored. At first I thought he might show something actually relevant, but he never created a video showing potential SSD/CPU problems for PS5, and now he's bashing the controllers on some small stuff.

 

[neodeano]

"Objectivity is a silly thing to strive for"
- J. Schreier

Objective journalism is the most understated oxymoron of all times.

Sirs, this is a Wendy's.

 

[Vae_Victis]

What do you guys think?

The whole Xbox part doesn't really make much practical sense.

Microsoft is not in it to "sell more consoles", but to make money. You can only undercut your initial profit so much before you are putting yourself into a huge money sink. If assembling and shipping an XSX is in the same ballpark as a PS5 with maybe a final difference the order of ~ $25-50 below or above, both companies will try to outbid each other for market share. But there is a bottom limit you can't cross, or your final balance per console sold will project much lower than with a more conservative strategy (this is, of course, especially risky in a scenario where you are still going against a fierce competitor and expect less consoles to be sold overall on the market).

What I mean is, having more money to begin with can help you take the upfront loss if you expect a larger return later, but for the figures you can realistically undercut to be profitable at all Sony also has more than enough money to play the same game.

 

[Agnostic2020]

The whole fact that lockhart will be a thing is cause ms doesn't want to take loss on xsx hardware and undercut sony. That whole warchest rhetoric doesn't make sense .

Ms is a service company and they r taking huge losses on services like game pass with 1$ deals. They r not a hardware company to take loss on hardware and their hardware pricing shows that from surface to x1x. The whole warchest thing doesn't make sense for ms in hardware business. It makes perfect sense in service business and they r taking huge losses there.

 

[xacto]

The whole Xbox part doesn't really make much practical sense.

Microsoft is not in it to "sell more consoles", but to make money. You can only undercut your initial profit so much before you are putting yourself into a huge money sink. If assembling and shipping an XSX is in the same ballpark as a PS5 with maybe a final difference the order of ~ $25-50 below or above, both companies will try to outbid each other for market share. But there is a bottom limit you can't cross, or your final balance per console sold will project much lower than with a more conservative strategy (this is, of course, especially risky in a scenario where you are still going against a fierce competitor and expect less consoles to be sold overall on the market).

What I mean is, having more money to begin with can help you take the upfront loss if you expect a larger return later, but for the figures you can realistically undercut to be profitable at all Sony also has more than enough money to play the same game.

So everything this guy is talking about is how Sony's plans have been upended, and how the whole COVID-19 pandemic threw a huge spanner in its works, and how this can (and maybe will) benefit Microsoft's side of things. Like Microsoft exists in a separate reality where this pandemic never happened. Ok, that makes a lot of sense.

Also, are these tweets his own, or they could be IGN's point of view as well? Because he proudly states he's the Executive Editor of previews at IGN. Nowhere does he state his tweets are his own, unlike a lot of other verified users on Twitter, or different social platforms. He's entitled to his own opinions, but some sort of disclaimer is needed.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Microsoft gaming never had nor does have this imaginary bottomless war chest ppl think. The gaming división has a budget, investors and a Board to report to. Each Dept or sector has allocated funds. Sony gaming division has been reaping tons of profit in gaming as of late and is in a better position to take a lose on hardware, not microsoft. Best believe tht game pass is eating through money and isn't profitable at all at this point BTW.

And agreed, as if this pendemic just affected Sony lol and both these companies don't buy parts from the same vendors and use the same factories to produce hardware lol What affects one affects both.

 

[chilichote]

Look at his game. He is a failure at his profession. He just tries to self-promote. Will not help selling his dogshit game

Despite everything, his game would sell better on the PS5^^

 

[Self]

Microsoft is not in it to "sell more consoles", but to make money.

In that case: Does anyone know if MS is to communicate XSX-Sales like Sony and Nintendo do?
Otherwise it might be a hassel to compare PS5 and XSX sales...

 

[Gamernyc78]

In that case: Does anyone know if MS is to communicate XSX-Sales like Sony and Nintendo do?
Otherwise it might be a hassel to compare PS5 and XSX sales...

Microsoft will only communicate certain sales when it benefits them as a company hence them dropping individual console sales when thy were getting smashed by Sony. As things have gotten worse thyve muddied the waters with maus instead and other metrics. As of late thy even stopped reporting Xbox live numbers.

 

[ethomaz]

12 512 GB modules give 768 GB, not 825 GB tho. And again, 12 modules would be 458.3 MB/s each, if speed and bandwidth are the same figure.

Or maybe I should say, from the sounds of it, each channel is 458.3 MB/s, since they are set in parallel. But from what you are saying, each NAND module is slower than that. For example let's say they are 384 MB/s, or 4.6 GB/s across all 12 in parallel. The channels are going to be limited by the NAND module speed, they can't draw data faster than the module itself is configured at silicon level to provide.

If that is the case (and 384 MB/s is a fairer case; the modules could be slower since even 384 MB/s modules are a tad pricey), then the 5.5 GB/s speed spec doesn't actually mean that much. It'd reflect the channel speed in parallel, but the modules aren't providing enough bandwidth to match that rate, and it would make more sense to go by the module rate in parallel.

And if the idea is the XSX's NAND is faster but they are going with less, then the NAND bandwidth in parallel there would actually be quite faster than what the channels can support, by several hundred megabytes, either suggesting they scaled back on the controller or channels, or they are considering changing/upgrading the controller. Or, it's a potentially questionable oversight.

Or if the XSX's NAND is ridiculously overspeced for what the controller can handle, then if the article you reference holds true, PS5's NAND is much slower than expected, and is going to deliver much less than 5.5 GB/s in parallel in practice because, again, the channels can't draw more than what the chips can provide per access/second, from what I'm to understand. But that doesn't sound to be the case from what Cerny said in his presentation.

12 x 512Gb = 12 x 64GiB = 768GiB = 825GB.

C'mon.

Now I know you have no ideia what are you talking about.

Sony choose 12 lanes because they can use small and slow NAND modules to reach 5.5GB/s.

You know 3D TLC NAND can have different speeds... for example Micron 512Gb have a range from 550MT/s to 1200MT/s.
800MT/s with 12 channels (lanes) provides about 7.5GB/s sequential read speeds.
So Sony doesn't need to use a 800MT/s NAND but can go cheaper with just 550MT/s and archive 5.5GB/s.

About MS is a bit more trick because they 1Tb 3D TLC NAND starts at 667MT/s... so there is no cheaper 550MT/s modules.
Same about 2Tb modules... maybe it starts at 800MT/s.

See now? Even if MS SSD is capped at 2.4GB/s to reach 1TB they will need bigger density modules that are indeed faster than what Sony needs.

MS had two options:

8 x 1Tb 667MT/s
4 x 2Tb 800MT/s

In any case the NAND chips provides more speeds than MS needs.

 

[BattleScar]

In that case: Does anyone know if MS is to communicate XSX-Sales like Sony and Nintendo do?
Otherwise it might be a hassel to compare PS5 and XSX sales...

Microsoft will release sales figures if they compare favourably to PlayStation. The reason they stopped this gen, is because they were getting dumptrucked and didn't want investors to know exactly how badly they were getting fucked. Keeps them at bay to enable more internal investment without the board going mad and demanding the business unit be binned.

 

[Self]

Microsoft will release sales figures if they compare favourably to PlayStation.

So we will only get actual numbers when XSX is a success story. I see.

Then let's hope for success. At least we will get actual numbers...

 

[B_Boss]

Oh you meant that developer that is clearly a fanboy? Yeah he should be ignored. At first I thought he might show something actually relevant, but he never created a video showing potential SSD/CPU problems for PS5, and now he's bashing the controllers on some small stuff.

Sorry X. I seem to be dragging you all over the place . The post of yours that I originally responded to, concerning bias, simply got me thinking about bias and journalism in general. I wasn't thinking of that dev. either (but now that you mention it ...). Couldn't agree more with your thinking here.

 

[FeiRR]

Microsoft gaming never had nor does have this imaginary bottomless war chest ppl think.

Very much that. I'd even say that Playstation might have relatively more money than Xbox. Think of their respective situations: Playstation is the workhorse of Sony, one of their most profitable businesses. If things go bad, they'll pump more money to turn tides, they have little choice. On the other side, Microsoft makes enormous amounts of money elsewhere* and the Xbox division is a small and risky business. If anything goes wrong, their higher execs will just snap fingers and sell out. just like they did with Nokia. That's why Spencer has to be cocky and have a plan. He has to be optimistic about future and promise heaven on earth to Xbox fans. If he fails this time, he'll probably lose his job.

*) I've read an article yesterday about the enormous push in cloud services we're just observing. Hundreds of millions of office workers switched from offline to online in a month. It's like Christmas for Microsoft, Amazon and Google.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Very much that. I'd even say that Playstation might have relatively more money than Xbox. Think of their respective situations: Playstation is the workhorse of Sony, one of their most profitable businesses. If things go bad, they'll pump more money to turn tides, they have little choice. On the other side, Microsoft makes enormous amounts of money elsewhere* and the Xbox division is a small and risky business. If anything goes wrong, their higher execs will just snap fingers and sell out. just like they did with Nokia. That's why Spencer has to be cocky and have a plan. He has to be optimistic about future and promise heaven on earth to Xbox fans. If he fails this time, he'll probably lose his job.

*) I've read an article yesterday about the enormous push in cloud services we're just observing. Hundreds of millions of office workers switched from offline to online in a month. It's like Christmas for Microsoft, Amazon and Google.

I agree. I've given the before mentioned example plenty of times but fans hear what they want to hear. Playstation is basically the face of Sony at this point and they are all in. As opposed to the trillions Microsoft makes elsewhere like in windows and in cloud services, not in Xbox.

Sony is in a way better position to invest in gaming and they will double down as thy have been.

 

[Darius87]

Try playing Tekken on any other controller than a PlayStation controller see how you like that lmao

yea specially when you need to swipe ↧ ↘ ↦ in d-pad to do combos or moves under 0.5 second or less not even talking king or jack combos which have ↧ ↘ ↦ ↗ ↥ ↖ ↢ ↙ full circle to swipe for combos it's nearly impossible on x controllers because it need to have spaces between arrows rather then whole plastic d pad. analogs is out of question also unless you want to break your thumb.