Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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HeisenbergFX4 said:
Hello all, hope everyone is doing well.

;)
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Long time no see. What's the tea?

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ethomaz said:
Bigger APU
More RAM modules
Bigger memory bus
2 PCBs
More SSD NAND modules

I believe the only discussable point that Xbox is cheaper than PS5 is SSD but that is discussable because the most expensive part of SSD, NAND modules, is in bigger quantity on Xbox.

APU, Memory, PCB are all expensive on Xbox.

I still believes Xbox cost is around $70-90 more expensive than PS5 costs.
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The slightly bigger APU won't make much a difference. And Sony yields might not be better because of high clocks. More SSD Nand modules (but not that much more) but they use a slow and cheap SSD controller (and without caches).

Sony has all the custom I/O (5.5GB/s controller, coherency engine, ram modules for caches, sram caches, DMA blocks, Kraken decompressors etc), a more custom GPU (with cache scrubbers and probably more things), an advanced variable clocks solution, a more expensive cooling, USB-C port, custom Tempest CU, high tech controller etc.
 
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Physiognomonics said:
The slightly bigger APU won't make much a difference. And Sony yields might not be better because of high clocks. More SSD Nand modules (but not that much more) but they use a slow and cheap SSD controller (and without caches).

Sony has all the custom I/O (5.5GB/s controller, coherency engine, sram caches, DMA blocks, Kraken decompressors etc), a more custom GPU (with cache scrubbers and probably more things), an advanced variable clocks solution, a more expensive cooling, USB-C port, custom Tempest CU, high tech controller etc.
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Just the APU is around $30 or more expensive if the sizes are around 360mm2 vs 300mm2.... bigger is your chip the failure rate of the yields increase disproportional.
SSD controller and Cache are all inside the APU in Sony case, no? At least the cache is... the controller itself I don't know.

Talking about SSD... the points that goes against MS solution:
- MS uses a 3rd-party controller that should be more expensive than a in-house one.
- Biggest and faster (expensive) NAND modules compared with PS5 small and slow modules.
- 1TB size compared with 825GB from Sony.

That is why I said it is not set on stone which one is cheaper.... it could be Sony solution because the 12 lanes were choose to make the solution use less expensive NAND modules.

I/O controller, coherency engine, sram caches, DMA blocks, Kraken decompressors, advanced variable clocks solution, custom Tempest CU, etc are all in the APU silicon so it is already in the cost of tapping the APU chip... BTW they where very small part of the silicon (even smaller than one core from the CPU).
Custom silicon doesn't increase the price of the chip unless it increase the size by a lot.... 295mm2 to 300mm2 due the custom silicon parts won't make that much difference.

Xbox is using a big and expensive fan in their design... is it really that cheaper compared with what Sony's cooling system?
BTW the new Xbox layout required to MS use 2 PCBs... in simple terms to PC users understand it is like having two motherboards in you PC.... one of the PCBs needs a 320bits bus that require at least a 6-layer PCB (expensive).
The 320bits bus add another expensive part... you need 10 GDDR6 modules to fit it.

The DualSense itself should be more expensive.
USB-C ports are expensive? It is the same USB 3 just you opt for a different plug.

Like I said taking the SSD being more expensive on PS5 and not putting the controller in perspective I believe the costs difference should be around $70... if the SSD solution is not that more expensive then it can go to $90.

MS choices are really the expensive side... they even tried to decrease the cost with the unusual different density modules for the RAM system... that alone saved them a lot but it is still more expensive than 256bits 8 modules PS5 solution and requires a costly PCB for the bus width.
 
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X-Fighter said:
How do you know they are losing money on Game Pass?
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I am not sure if they are losing but just think this a game AAA like Gears 5 can cost without problem more than 100 million of dollars, if you put it in
your service you will need a lot more than 10 million of users only that moth for paid it, 10 dollars for each minus taxes,minus new users who only paid 1 dollar, also some part of the money goes for
other games and this is only for one AAA launch.

Netflix can get profit for a similar price but a game cost a lot more than any serie of similar popularity. I don't see like a bad strategy loss money in the beginning but if the user believe they
always will pay 10 dollars for that service well I think now Microsoft is the Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

So or they are paying a trifle to the third parties or they losing money also they are paid accordingly how much time the users play its game (that sounds dangerous for developer creative freedom).

For me this kind of services should be a complement not the only way to play games. Because this kind of things devalue the value of a product just looks the release of game in Steam all the people
saying the will wait until cost summer sales, this one of the reason of why the console market give so many money to the dev studios compare than platforms like steam or worst looks how this
degradation of value of a game hurts the type of game we see in smartphone market.

I know some think this gamepass can increment the number of AAA but that is not necessary true the smartphone market generates more money than any other kind of gaming but you don't expect to see a game like Cyberpunk announce for Iphone or Android. Just looks the new studios of Microsoft most of them will do AA games for a good reason.
 
Bonsaibäumchen said:
Back to topic: The idea of raytracing is absolutly fantastic and will make games and animations so much easier to create/render.
However and this is my point im trying to make I don't believe next-gen consoles will be able to rely on it. They may be able to use some RT funtioncs and features but not to an extend that would a) reduce workloads for developers b) reduce workload of gpu for other stuff c) make an visible stunning impact in AAA Games.

PC Graphic Card on the other hand will probably outmatch consoles in a year or two and make raytracing a must have and heavily used.
Anyhow - I expect RT to be omipresent and used after the next gen and maybe even once they release the upgraded/pro versions. I guess they'll then even add some AI Cores or something along those lines.
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I would say that ray tracing is the next big thing, and I love it 100%. I accept mild usage of it now, and probably higher with next mid-gen model (PS5 Pro 36+36=72CU chiplet "butterfly"), when we should be seeing more 8K gaming as well.
 
chemical boy said:
This was valid before millions of people are losing their jobs. In fact Sony have significantly lowered their sales forecasts internally.
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And? All console makers are affected by this. You directed your comment at psv as if thy had to do something extra to keep a foothold and Microsoft will be all roses. My comment still stands. They will all possibly sell less but Sony will still lead in sales as long as thy are competent.
 
Metroiddarks said:
I am not sure if they are losing but just think this a game AAA like Gears 5 can cost without problem more than 100 million of dollars, if you put it in
your service you will need a lot more than 10 million of users only that moth for paid it, 10 dollars for each minus taxes,minus new users who only paid 1 dollar, also some part of the money goes for
other games and this is only for one AAA launch.

Netflix can get profit for a similar price but a game cost a lot more than any serie of similar popularity. I don't see like a bad strategy loss money in the beginning but if the user believe they
always will pay 10 dollars for that service well I think now Microsoft is the Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

So or they are paying a trifle to the third parties or they losing money also they are paid accordingly how much time the users play its game (that sounds dangerous for developer creative freedom).

For me this kind of services should be a complement not the only way to play games. Because this kind of things devalue the value of a product just looks the release of game in Steam all the people
saying the will wait until cost summer sales, this one of the reason of why the console market give so many money to the dev studios compare than platforms like steam or worst looks how this
degradation of value of a game hurts the type of game we see in smartphone market.

I know some think this gamepass can increment the number of AAA but that is not necessary true the smartphone market generates more money than any other kind of gaming but you don't expect to see a game like Cyberpunk announce for Iphone or Android. Just looks the new studios of Microsoft most of them will do AA games for a good reason.
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Well I think if you would make the analysis on Game Pass only, pretty sure it's losing money, for all the reasons you are saying. So when Phil said they aren't burning cash for users, I think he meant on an Xbox division level. Pretty sure that the Xbox division is not losing money, so how they want to spend their money depends purely on their strategy. For example Sony also uses Playstation profits to spend in other divisions, that's not a bad thing, that's how big companies work. And Microsoft uses it for Game Pass, and I think that's good for us, the consumers.
 
Tamy said:
wow! and that's even if PS5 is $399..

Imagine XSX being $399 and PS5 being $499. This would destroy the PS5, like PS4 destroyed Xbox One lol
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Yeah sure! Those twitter polls are really great stuff to reliably extrapolate the common console gamers choice!

Sony is gonna fail horribly. This is for sure now. PS5 has ony 50% of XSX Power, their controller sucks major balls, they have no games, their marketing sucks, they are going to sell their console way higher then xbox and overall Sony has no clue what they are doing. Fucking noobs!

I know this all to be facts!
Sincerely,
Patrick

YKslKDr.jpg
 
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X-Fighter said:
Well I think if you would make the analysis on Game Pass only, pretty sure it's losing money, for all the reasons you are saying. So when Phil said they aren't burning cash for users, I think he meant on an Xbox division level. Pretty sure that the Xbox division is not losing money, so how they want to spend their money depends purely on their strategy. For example Sony also uses Playstation profits to spend in other divisions, that's not a bad thing, that's how big companies work. And Microsoft uses it for Game Pass, and I think that's good for us, the consumers.
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But We are talking about Gamepass not xbox division, don't change the subject your question was about Gamepass.

Is true the Xbox division generates profits from game sales, accessories sales, xbox live gold, add on in games.

Yes gamepass is good for the user but not perfect less not try to think as only user also think in the dev and publishers if their side is not healthy that will hurt you in some moment.

Making game even longer than now, should be more easy so most the user can play it, try to avoid strange concepts so most of the public can fell attract to played that sound very similar for me as games
in smartphone field. Not always a good thing for user is a good thing for the industry, I only recommend gamepass for people who love to play but doesn't has the money for do it but for example I always
tell to my little brother I prefer to bought a game in normal price because is the best way to support the studio I like.

I want my brother appreciate the work for other people are pay what he thinks should be reseanoble not just pay as cheap as possible, this people work for years and are hundred of them for just one game
and I tired to see people to think X game should cost 10 dollars because is "free" in a service, that is not fair, the dev/artists are most important for the gaming sector not the users.
 
ethomaz said:
Well they are already losing money on Gamepass so why not lose a bit more on console hardware.
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That's a great way to piss off your shareholders and get the business unit shuttered.
Its a business, so somewhere it has to make money. If they're losing money on hardware they need to make up for it with their software. If that isn't enough to make the division profitable, you may as well shut up shop.
Microsoft may be worth $1 trillion, but they don't have a trillion dollars to throw in the bin casually.
 
Hey guys, I'd like to recommend this video.



This guys explain very well what a Teraflop is. And basically no, the Teraflops doesn't enhance games graphics, they only help us when we do a thing that cannot be previously calculated by the GPU. But I admitt that sometimes is a good way to compare power difference.
 
Darius87 said:
here's quiz for you:
is ResilientBanana ResilientBanana right about his comment?:


  1. Yes xsex indeed can stream 100GB instantly.
  2. why xsex need 16gb GDDR6 when you can have 100GB instant
  3. he just wanted to draw some correlations
  4. he haven't finished elementary school and can't read properly
  5. he took words out of context
  6. i'm fanboy and i can't help myself(look at my profile if you don't believe me)

"5 and 6 and thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best are my best friend "
Click to expand...

Okay that was worth a laugh and at least you're upfront about your fan status. Still though, I think it's just you disagreeing on semantics.

"Instantly" can be relative; for next-gen games drawing/streaming data at gigabytes per second will feel "instant" compared to current gen where 30 MB - 50 MB was the standard, and that was in better-case scenarios at that.
 
Physiognomonics said:
The slightly bigger APU won't make much a difference. And Sony yields might not be better because of high clocks. More SSD Nand modules (but not that much more) but they use a slow and cheap SSD controller (and without caches).

Sony has all the custom I/O (5.5GB/s controller, coherency engine, ram modules for caches, sram caches, DMA blocks, Kraken decompressors etc), a more custom GPU (with cache scrubbers and probably more things), an advanced variable clocks solution, a more expensive cooling, USB-C port, custom Tempest CU, high tech controller etc.
Click to expand...

The yields will almost certainly be better (IMHO) because I suspect the chip is only able to run 400Mhz over its upper (intended) clock because of the new thermal latency strategy the chip employs. The loud devkits that people rumoured – that don't have the variable clock strategy – is probably how the chip would perform under the classic thermal latency strategy. A 40 CU chip with two or three(?) CUs disabled and the remainder repurposed for Tempest operating at 2.23 GHz with thermals of running at 1.8GHz doesn't sound like it will have big yield issues – especially with a more expensive cooler -that will presumably help bin even more chips as viable.

The 12 channel SSD might have been decided by module size cost for Sony in other products. Had TV/Handycam/mobile phone(etc) storage modules been half the size and speed, they may have gone with 24 channels to provide the same total capacity to make savings by bulk buying.

I would speculate that the DualSense will be the most expensive aspect of the PS5 and they intend to recoup those cost by upping the cost of a stand-alone pad to £60.
 
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3liteDragon said:












What do you guys think?
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Microsoft is a $110.3B company vs $78.1B Sony which are revenue numbers. That $1+ trillion number is an esitimated price of the whole company (translation: wishful thinking) if they are willing to sell, assuming that there are smart enough people to spend that amount of money on a shrinking market (PC OS) compared to Apple ($261.7B) which is estimated less than Microsoft as well. Microsoft is 60th and Sony is around 116th in terms of the biggest companies in the world.

EDIT: More into it:

Sony: (116th) https://fortune.com/global500/2019/sony/
Microsoft: (60th) https://fortune.com/global500/2019/microsoft/
Apple: (11th) https://fortune.com/global500/2019/apple/
 
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Still though, I think it's just you disagreeing on semantics.
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what semantics? he's agreed that he did mistake. time to end this discussion.

Sycomunkee said:
I'm not a fanboy by any means. But yeah, I put the wrong pieces together.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
"Instantly" can be relative; for next-gen games drawing/streaming data at gigabytes per second will feel "instant" compared to current gen where 30 MB - 50 MB was the standard, and that was in better-case scenarios at that.
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gigabytes but not 100 :messenger_grinning_squinting:
 
He just said the 100GB for the game on SSD can be easily accessible anytime with Velocity Architecture but you are still limited to SSD speeds... 2.4GB/s of non-compressed data and ~4.8GB/s of compressed data.
 
Gamepass follows the Silicon Valley model of losing as much money (investment) as possible while gaining as much market share(growth - subscriptions) as possible. That's what drives shareholders, as the market needs to speculate perpetual growth(share price needs to go up) or they won't keep making more and more money. It's the Netflix model folks, there's just no way Gamepass is making money(yet).
 
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chemical boy said:
Sony must go with everything. Otherwise PS5 will crash. We are in a unique situation, with a brutal world crisis, Sony must show starter games that really leave people with their mouths open. Otherwise very few will pay 500 euros given the world situation.

For most people 30 or 60 fps, 2k or 4K do not care we need to see games that leave us thinking "this really is a true new generation leap, this is impossible on ps4". Games like Godfall can go at 4k and 60fps but for the vast majority of the public they do not represent a jump compared to what was seen on ps4.
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Ah, it's that time when someone comes and brings "end of the world" situations about one of the most powerful brand in gaming ever.
No, really, I respect your opinion, but PS didn't crash even with PS3, and that was a fucking shame of a disaster.
It didn't crash with two meme-tier E3 presentations (and we talk about GDC...)
It didn't crash with late launch.
It didn't crash with ABSURD price.
It didn't crash with even more absurd architecture.
It didn't crash with lackluster interface and online services.
It didn't crash with worst multiplats.
It didn't crash even with a world financial crysis.
I repeat: Sony launched a 599 dollars incomprehensible console right after an economic disaster, while the competitor was plain better, and PS still didn't crash.
Also, I may be wrong but it's not like 399 in 2005 was less than 499 now, due to inflation. Yet, 360 sold very well.
To fail and not being able to recover, Sony would need to shoot at its customers.
Tamy said:
wow! and that's even if PS5 is $399..

Imagine XSX being $399 and PS5 being $499. This would destroy the PS5, like PS4 destroyed Xbox One lol
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LMAO
HeisenbergFX4 said:
Hello all, hope everyone is doing well.

;)
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As you can see, we are not doing well at all.
 
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Thirty7ven said:
Gamepass follows the Silicon Valley model of losing as much money (investment) as possible while gaining as much market share(growth - subscriptions) as possible. That's what drives shareholders, as the market needs to speculate perpetual growth(share price needs to go up) or they won't keep making more and more money. It's the Netflix model folks, there's just no way Gamepass is making money(yet).
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Why is it that most people don't understand this simple point\philosophy?
 
Gediminas said:
it sounds very misleading and like a lie covered in PR word games.
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I am still amazed why MS has not yet shown every single detail of its hardware and how it really works when they have already revealed the full design of the Series X and the full specs. It is like they are trying to dim the bright of the PS5 hardware playing the confuse/misleading card.

And please, I hope that nobody quotes me to tell me that they need to talk about their VRS patent, Audio chip or the PCIe interface in the May/June event.
 
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Thirty7ven said:
Gamepass follows the Silicon Valley model of losing as much money (investment) as possible while gaining as much market share(growth - subscriptions) as possible. That's what drives shareholders, as the market needs to speculate perpetual growth(share price needs to go up) or they won't keep making more and more money. It's the Netflix model folks, there's just no way Gamepass is making money(yet).
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As of right now Gamepass is the equivalent of Chaozu doing his suicide move against Nappa and then everyone realize was useless.
 
scie said:
SSDs get very hot under continous load around 80-90°C. They throttle their trouput at this temperatures. This is why especially new Gen4 SSDs come with huge passive cooling
wccftech.com

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AORUS unveiled their blazing fast 5 GB/s NVMe Gen 4 SSD which utilizes the PCIe Gen 4 interface. The new NVMe SSD is designed to deliver much faster speeds over traditional PCIe Gen 3 storage devices and also allow delivers better cooling thanks to its all-copper heatsink design. AORUS NVMe Gen...
wccftech.com wccftech.com
www.tweaktown.com

Corsair Force Series MP600 1TB NVMe PCIe Gen4 M.2 SSD Review

Corsair's Phison-powered MP600 PCIe Gen4 SSD crushes the competition. Here's our full review.
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PC cases, fans, fans placement can be huge in the matter as well, also positive/negative air pressure inside the case with smooth exiting. I don't use a heat sink, but when rendering it never passes the 60C mark, only seen 60 once with around 55C being the average max. On normal usage:

148427.jpg


Even with a stress test, it barely touches 60C. But NVMe m.2 produces much, much more heat than SATA 3 (the other one is SSD SATA 3). With XSX sharing one major fan, not sure how much cooling will be shared inside the box, they need enough pressure sucking in air to force that cool air to hit all components hard and fast.

Not sure about Sony and how they'll approach that, but it's not an NVMe m.2.
 
Thirty7ven said:
Gamepass follows the Silicon Valley model of losing as much money (investment) as possible while gaining as much market share(growth - subscriptions) as possible. That's what drives shareholders, as the market needs to speculate perpetual growth(share price needs to go up) or they won't keep making more and more money. It's the Netflix model folks, there's just no way Gamepass is making money(yet).
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It probably would make money if everyone paid full price.

But it's almost impossible to fully calculate since GamePass causes people to buy content they wouldn't have, and not buy content they would have.
 
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The talk of instant fast travels and instant loading times on the PS5 is already beginning to spoil me, I keep nitpicking at the slow loading times when I play the Witcher 3, especially with the fast travel and respawns. I remember God of War on the PS4 had a small issue when you would use. the World Tree to fast travel, Kratos would stand in front of it's entrance for like 10 seconds before you could actually enter it and then once inside we would wait for another minute for the next level to actually load up.

I think a lot of us will really begin to appreciate the load times feature of the PS5 when we get into next gen.
 
3liteDragon said:












What do you guys think?
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Man that is some severe bias. So somehow the Covid economy will effect Sony but MS will sell out whatever they make and Phil can lose as much money as he wants because the CEO likes him and MS is so big and scary they can take the market and undercut price whenever they feel like it because thats definitely been panning out over the last 3 gens. Hell the pro is now more expensive than the series X
 
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MasterCornholio said:
I'm confused about something. SSDs eliminate seek time correct?

So isn't all the data on an SSD instantly accessible?

Maybe I'm understanding that statement wrong which is why I'm confused about it.
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You know seek time is just the amount of time to find the data...
You need to transfer it yet and that is limited to 2.4GB/s or whatever speed they got with compressions.
 
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Thirty7ven said:
Gamepass follows the Silicon Valley model of losing as much money (investment) as possible while gaining as much market share(growth - subscriptions) as possible. That's what drives shareholders, as the market needs to speculate perpetual growth(share price needs to go up) or they won't keep making more and more money. It's the Netflix model folks, there's just no way Gamepass is making money(yet).
Click to expand...

I can't be bothered to look into Xbox profitability but I think the margins are likely very very tight with Gamepass (it's excellent value). But for the Netflix model to work they would also need Gamepass on Sony and Nintendo platforms (which just won't happen).

I'm also not sure if Xbox One and One X sales combined have surpassed X360.
 
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dan_of_orion said:
The talk of instant fast travels and instant loading times on the PS5 is already beginning to spoil me, I keep nitpicking at the slow loading times when I play the Witcher 3, especially with the fast travel and respawns. I remember God of War on the PS4 had a small issue when you would use. the World Tree to fast travel, Kratos would stand in front of it's entrance for like 10 seconds before you could actually enter it and then once inside we would wait for another minute for the next level to actually load up.

I think a lot of us will really begin to appreciate the load times feature of the PS5 when we get into next gen.
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Yeah TBH even if for some reason XSX is somehow obviously superior graphically (I doubt it either way) I'd still probably go with PS5 for multiplats.

XSX SSD is welcome, but being able to literally double it's speed, even on unoptomized games, is going to shorten loading times.

With optimization they can cut load times even more; the catch-22 of being the slower drive means you have to load more assets ahead of time on XSX compared to a game optimized for the PS5 SSD.
 
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IntentionalPun said:
Yeah TBH even if for some reason XSX is somehow obviously superior graphically (I doubt it either way) I'd still probably go with PS5 for multiplats.

XSX SSD is welcome, but being able to literally double it's speed, even on unoptomized games, is going to shorten loading times.

With optimization they can cut load times even more; the catch-22 of being the slower drive means you have to load more assets ahead of time on XSX compared to a game optimized for the PS5 SSD.
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As I plan to buy Borderlands 3 and play it on PS5, I want the shortest possible loading times because I will grind the fuck out of that game as I did with 2. And 1. And Pre-Sequel also.
 
CrysisFreak said:
Try playing Tekken on any other controller than a PlayStation controller see how you like that lmao
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Not sure what you prefer their, but I've played MGS5 for like 51-hour straight with no sleeping, only minor breaks for food etc. I usually play for insane amount of time when a great game hits, and my thumbs are pretty relaxed on the analogs. Some people play in a strange way, they tap the analogs, especially the right one, like a button, so I can see that as tiresome.

I remember some pain and clunkiness playing and finishing assassin's creed on my cousin's xbox 360 (may God bless his soul, passed away in an accident 2 years ago). I felt the button placement was far due to the controller design overall, the right analog is so deep to the middle, and the left one is a bit far. The asymmetric placement is confusing first but you can get over it so it's not the main problem. And my hands sweat sometimes, so that design makes it worse and feel like the controller is sliding off.

8c5c5ca6fe0edd34e9b69887c973b025.jpg


Even the DS3 was much more secured although it was small: (the analogs slide with those curves as well)

DualShock3-in-Hand.jpg


The DS4 was a better controller, the best so far, and can still secure it with my middle or ring fingers (playing a shooter):

joystick-gaming-controller-hand-isolated-white-background_39665-101.jpg


I'm a 178cm (5'10"), meaning I'm an average person, not small nor giant with average hands (didn't measure them, but my feet are 45 Euro size, 11 US size if that ever counts).

I'm not sure about how the DualSense will be on my hands, I hope it's good. Never, ever felt any pain with DS4.
 
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X-Fighter said:
I think he's pointing out to now having the proper backing of the CEO and CFO which they might not have had in 2013.
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They were given a billion dollars to make games with at the start of Xbox Ones life.

www.gamesindustry.biz

Microsoft has $1 billion for exclusive Xbox One titles

Microsoft is ready to invest around $1 billion in the development of exclusive games for the Xbox One.
www.gamesindustry.biz www.gamesindustry.biz

Where that money actually went is anyones guess.
 
ethomaz said:
Yeap if the data teleport from SSD to RAM that can happen.
Not with 2.4GB/s SSD speeds thought...
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Not with 5.5 GB/s SSD speeds, either.

The disillusionment is strong ITT atm...

Solid_Rain said:
I'm also not sure if Xbox One and One X sales combined have surpassed X360.
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They haven't. Combined XBO and X sales are probably only around 45 million.

That aside, comparing Gamepass to the Netflix model is somewhat odd. Netflix borrows funds and basically runs off of debt. The quality of their projects were questionable for the longest time but they seem to be stepping up on that front across the board.

AFAIK, MS isn't borrowing money from outside investors and running GP on a debt model.
 
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