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The Mad Draklor
Member
Also, the PS5's solution to BC isn't like the fat PS3's BC method. The PS3 used to have a stripped down PS2 inside the system which (1) drove up costs and (2) emulated PS2 games without enhancements (i.e. running PS2 games on the PS3 is no different from running PS2 games on the PS2). In contrast, the PS5's architecture is similar enough to the PS4's that at worst, PS4 games will run on either standard or Pro legacy modes. At best, the PS5 will run the PS4 games at greater resolution and/or framerates.
splattered
Member
Right, and so by that same logic if Lockhart includes a fast SSD and full RDNA2 feature set then it would share the same framework as ps5 and XsX would it not?
It would just be scaled back to only need to hit a 1080p or 1440p 60fps target.
If the Lockhart arrives with a mechanical hard drive and only RDNA1 architecture then i 100% see your point.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Whatever, but the important thing is to stop locking masterpieces behind generations or a pay wall.
I can't play Bloodborne on my PS5? Fuck that.
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splattered
Member
I think Sony finally understands this, we should be able to play Bloodborne on ps5.
I agree that BC should in no way be held behind a paywall though.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Hmm....so Tom Warren from The Verge (Microsoft guy) is saying Lockhart won't hold games back and that TFLOPS don't matter.....at the same time....TFLOPS matter when PS5 is mentioned.
To get to the my main point, Xbox Lockhart DOES hold back games, what if a game uses GPU physics calculations and RT to design around it? A 4 TF ain't doing any of that even at 1080p, as XSX is gonna run at maybe 1800p or 1620p, and when Lockhart sells way higher than Series X (due to it being much cheaper), you'll see developers build their games on the lesser console and then just scale up that given game with higher resolutions and some better effects here and there, instead of building their games to take full advantage of 12 TF console.
The one thing that can save us from this shit hole, is the PlayStation 5, because it has almost the same specs as XSX with much faster SSD (so arguably, you can make even more elaborate & ambitious next-gen experience than even XSX), and can save the next-gen baseline from that shitty Lockhart console, because we all know PS5 will DESTROY Xbox in sales whether it's Lockhart or Series X!!
I hope my message gets through safely as I know I'm gonna get so much flak for staying the truth.
I think Sony will secure more and more 3rd party exclusives (AAA and indies) with it's solo, high end machine and extremely easy to develop and implement ray tracing for. This as well will translate into more AA and semi-AAA indie games like Quantum Error, and should make Dreams thrive even more on PS5.
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splattered
Member
Didn't cerny specifically state that one of their goals is trying to shorten dev times? I have a feeling they plan to try and survive less on 3rd party deals this gen which is a good thing as long as their 1st party can keep quality level with less time per release.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Really...? That would save a small/indie dev quite a bit of money. If Microsoft and Sony do this then that can only be a good thing for gaming.
IllegalLemon
Member
What i know for sure is that in order to do that they need the help of Synaptics or Qualcomm. These two companies have a selection of optical and ultrasonic fingerprint sensors available for major manufacturers to choose from. The touchpad is capacitive and might have enough surface area inside it to fit a 3dSonicMax ultrasonic fingerprint sensor inside it which is enough to cover a surface area of about 25-30% on the touchpad for fingerprint recognition (if any sort of fingerprint recognition is built into the controller). These sensors are low cost as well, the ultrasonic fingerprint sensor in the Galaxy S10 plus for instance cost anywhere from 6-9 dollars back in 2019, which means the more advanced 3dSonicMax should cost somewhere from 9-14 dollars and yes these ultrasonic sensors work through materials such as steel, plastic, glass etc. I don't know, just my two cents, assuming sony goes as far as to include biometrics in their controller which sounds doable, but it'll jack up the overall cost of the controller. It's not impossible, but it sounds crazy imho.
splattered
Member
Really...? That would save a small/indie dev quite a bit of money. If Microsoft and Sony do this then that can only be a good thing for gaming.
Don't MS already allow small devs to turn a console into a dev unit?
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
With GT securing the car sim space by a large margin, Sony needs to reconsider an arcady racer like The Crew, NFS, Forza Horizon
DriveClub was insane, everything feels right, it's my best arcady racing game mechanics and gameplay, but The Crew is the overall best with the insane variety and map. Problem with DriveClub it didn't get PS4 Pro patch, so kept at 1080p:
It had a mix of sim and arcade feeling, perfect for most. Lacked tuning and customization, and in general was the game more of a polished Ridge Racer from PS1 era. Imagine those engine sounds with the Tempest.
DriveClub was insane, everything feels right, it's my best arcady racing game mechanics and gameplay, but The Crew is the overall best with the insane variety and map. Problem with DriveClub it didn't get PS4 Pro patch, so kept at 1080p:
It had a mix of sim and arcade feeling, perfect for most. Lacked tuning and customization, and in general was the game more of a polished Ridge Racer from PS1 era. Imagine those engine sounds with the Tempest.
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Neo Blaster
Member
Or a certain dolphin ripoff game.
LED Guy?
Banned
But they have to scale down the baseline graphics pipeline and engine just for Lockhart to run at stated resolutions and FPS, what if there's a game that's being built around GPU physics and RT? And apparently that used 7 or 8 TF of that GPU to do this, then the game wouldn't run on Lockhart properly so they have to scale down the game's baseline just for it to work properly, because we all know Lockhart ain't gonna do shit with Ray tracing, and we know it will sell way faster than XSX because it is going to be much cheaper than XSX, so developers will focus on Lockhart 1st and foremost, THEN scale everything up with just resolution, that shit aggravates me.
Fuck Microsoft, sometimes they ruin a whole generation because of that stuff. I'm being real here, I hope Lockhart dies LOL!!
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Indeed that what I meant, shorter developing times + one console + if the gap remains or extends in comparison with current gen then more devs will rather release on PS5 or develop around PS5 then port it elsewhere, or we'll see more timed exclusives as well. Things like Smart Delivery and Gamepass are Gamers > Devs, you generally would like a healthy Gamers = Devs.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
The cooling system leaked so far (stackability) and solo console release all drive me to think about PS5 Pro in 2023-2024, a ~20TF beast at around PS5 launch price. Some think it's an overkill, but remember, Sony sell 8K TV's, and by 2024 you'll see less and less 4K TV's, and most flagships in 2020 are 8K now. But by that time I hope that HDMI 3.0 is there with 8K@120Hz. It'll be mostly like PS4 Pro and X1X, barely touching native 8K but I'll happily upgrade. At that time microLED might hit the market, the most anticipated TV tech.
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LED Guy?
Banned
We even have "Book of the Dead" tech demo that used the REAL CAPABILITIES OF PS4 PRO 4.2 TF GPU!!!!!
This stuff can't be done on PlayStation 4 base, PS4 Pro just took whatever base PS4 shits out and then upres those same games and then developers call it a day.
Look at this, it took full advantage of PS4 Pro's Polaris GCN 4.2 TFLOPS GPU!!!!!
This stuff can't be done on PlayStation 4 base, PS4 Pro just took whatever base PS4 shits out and then upres those same games and then developers call it a day.
Look at this, it took full advantage of PS4 Pro's Polaris GCN 4.2 TFLOPS GPU!!!!!
Metroiddarks
Member
Are you ever try to make to make a game ? because I think you are saying yes or actually want all the the studios creates its own assets for some strange reasonAdding assets from unreal to make your own game, c'mon that's low effort.
Store PlayStation 5- og Xbox Series X-nyheter kommer i mai
Ting har og vil fortsette å endre seg raskt under denne pandemien. Spillmesser har blitt kansellert og PR-planer blitt endret for både PlayStation 5 og Xbox Series X, men...www.gamereactor.no
Daniel Ahmad, one of the gaming industry's best-known analysts, is one of those who can take on a lot of the blame for these with his Twitter messages. I can confirm this, and to be kind I can also tell you that we will hear some very exciting things related to PS5 and Xbox Series X already next week.
Do you know how time consuming is that? Is ridiculous how many time requires to create an asset and requires dozens or even hundreds of them.
Sorry not all the studios has an army or artists, want to use years only doing that or even has enough money. With access to a repository of assets like for example
things like quixel is the heaven for the studios in general doesn´t matter the size and yes those assets are gorgeous.
Is like the people thinks the programmer needs to rewrite each time all code for an already know solution. They already use zbrush for example for create is own
characters so also is not like the download everything.
Regarding the dev kits looks like they are not using one only a similar pc as PS5 but now with all this publicity not should so hard to contact Sony in order to get (I don´t think free)
a PS5 dev kit but I don't know.
But Its studio is far to be just amateurs they already release another game for PS4 and Steam:
https://twitter.com/TeamKillMedia
These systems are not releasing in a vacuum. The highest selling console will be the PS5 no doubts about it. So you don't have to worry about games being built with Lockhart in mind first and then scaled up. All games will be built with PS5/XSX in mind first and then scaled down. If any system gets quick and dirty ports it will be Lockhart. No need to worry.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Of course, even big studios like EA use Quixel Megascans with over 10,000 unique photorealistic assets, that's why BF games look so insanely good but less hardware demanding as well, as photorealism is achieved with high end PC already. Quixel has been bought by Epic Games and now it's for free in UE4! I would HIGHLY recommend watching this short video:
I could swear Death Stranding and the Hellblade 2 cinematic used that.
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DrKeo
Member
Cerny said they are looking into other solutions so they will probably have an external solution of their own
I agree. Everything they say is extremity ambiguous and unclear.
Soon the first drives based on the Phison E18 controller will start coming out and I'll bet they are the drives Cerny was referring to in his lecture. We will have to wait and see how much they will cost.
No this developer disagrees with you, stop it man LOL!! They build from bottom to up, depending on where the most sales are going.
Games are built for the popular leading platform. Before X and Pro came out all games lead on PS4, not on X1.
As long as Lockheart has a similar SSD, CPU and enough memory (proportional),it will probably be fine.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Now you mention it I vaguely remember this. Not sure if they still do it, though.
Physiognomonics
Member
They probably have a deal with Sony. Sony need games for its launch, small teams need financing.Really...? That would save a small/indie dev quite a bit of money. If Microsoft and Sony do this then that can only be a good thing for gaming.
splattered
Member
That's what I keep saying..
I would be pleasantly surprised if this happened, I would get one for both of my kids as their next gen Xboxes.
Odds are though we won't be seeing a mobile variant but i'd love to be wrong.
Metroiddarks
Member
That is exactly my point if lockhart will be have the same graphics only with less resolution so that means for PS5 is the same (with even better textures) soHmm....so Tom Warren from The Verge (Microsoft guy) is saying Lockhart won't hold games back and that TFLOPS don't matter.....at the same time....TFLOPS matter when PS5 is mentioned.
To get to the my main point, Xbox Lockhart DOES hold back games, what if a game uses GPU physics calculations and RT to design around it? A 4 TF ain't doing any of that even at 1080p, as XSX is gonna run at maybe 1800p or 1620p, and when Lockhart sells way higher than Series X (due to it being much cheaper), you'll see developers build their games on the lesser console and then just scale up that given game with higher resolutions and some better effects here and there, instead of building their games to take full advantage of 12 TF console.
The one thing that can save us from this shit hole, is the PlayStation 5, because it has almost the same specs as XSX with much faster SSD (so arguably, you can make even more elaborate & ambitious next-gen experience than even XSX), and can save the next-gen baseline from that shitty Lockhart console, because we all know PS5 will DESTROY Xbox in sales whether it's Lockhart or Series X!!
I hope my message gets through safely as I know I'm gonna get so much flak for staying the truth.
will be 1920p vs 2160p (a 20% of delta in pixels which in theory should be the best scenario at least without a heavy use of RT) ... look good luck trying to
difference that in naked eye.
And this is maybe why Xbox just don't market as the most powerful because even when the XSX has a better GPU maybe is not better enough to make a difference without
hurt the budget console or make all its optimizations in low level which make very hard to publish in PC and also we still need to see if the SSD bandwidth can be took
advantage of something more than loading times can be better LOD and textures.
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TBiddy
Member
It's a tech demo. It's not a game. You even said it yourself.
A game will never look like that on the PS4 Pro.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Seeing their Tweets from 3 weeks ago posted above I'm not so sure now. I don't blame such a small team trying to get exposure for their game but it doesn't seem like they even have a PS5 dev kit yet.
Metroiddarks
Member
That is not a general true for console market maybe yes for Xbox studios which release games with more problems in the base console Xbox one. But SIE still working in PS4 as
its main console that is why its games are target to be 1080p in a normal PS4.
For third party this will depend from which console are selling better or if they have some kind of contract of some console marker.
FeiRR
Banned
I highly doubt a multiplatform engine like Unity can take full advantage of PS4 hardware. If anything, we're soon going to witness a standoff between Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch. One of those games will be the opus magnum of 8th generation graphics. I'm rooting for ND but so far what I've seen in trailers, SP wins.
Metroiddarks
Member
The thing is Kazunori Yamauchi is fan of the simulator so and think for Sony is very hard to try to convince to make
an arcade game.
I think they will release a game in medium term yes is realistic but closer to old Gran Turismo saga I am sure for Sony
games like Forza Horizon are headache not for sales (the racing games doesn't sell much this days) if not because
is in my opinion is the Xbox Studio with better quality of all its studios first party and you don't a game which target specifically that market.
Metroiddarks
Member
Also
FF VII remake, the last Tomb Raider, Battlefield V, Destiny, Metro Exodus, Plague Tale, The Division 2, Shadow of the Colossus remake
I don´t know about the Oman, but truth to be told in 2023-2024 we won´t have 8K in Germany. Even while you don´t get any 1080p TVs only 4K TVs are sold, but the majority of people don´t even watch 1080p content. DVDs outsell Burays by more than 2:1. Netflix and Amazon Prime is being watched by the majority in 1080p, because they don´t want to pay more money for 4K. Our public national television is broadcasted in two streams by 720p and 540p (yes, SD). They may use 1080p in 2-3 years time. They wanted to cut the 540p Stream in 2020, but postponed it to 2021, because only ~70% of all TVs are able to us "HD" = 720p content.
Our privat television you can get in 1080p, but you have to pay 60€/y and device. So they have round about ~2 mil subscriptions in Germany, but we have way, way more than 60-70mil TVs... The privat tv broadcasts wanted to cut their SD signal (540p) in 2022, but now they postponed it to 2024 and maybe even longer, because no one wants to pay for their crappy HD content....
Only a minority wants the best visuals possible. It is like music, the people want to consume the crappy 320kbit/s MP3...
Also fun fact. The hours TV is being watched in Germany is going down year by year, because more and more people just consume their movies and shows on tablets, notebooks and smartphones... I know some folks who don´t own a TV anymore, because Netlfix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Spotify and even german public TV broadcast is available on other devices... and these new folks are the perfect target for a game streaming service regardless from whom...
Vaztu
Member
It seems people in Era are now trying to focusing on expensive external SSD price as the new narrative. And it is starting to leak in here too.
My take is, even if it is true, I will use my $100 4 TB HDD as cold storage for PS5 games, and transfer games to the internal SSD whenever I want to play certain titles. Internal SSD will surely hold 7-8 games, and I don't think we will see these many must-have titles by launch. By 2021, external SSD prices should drop to reasonable levels.
If I am to speculate too, then I would say SSD manufacturers must be seething in anger hearing Seagate got the exclusivity deal for XSX. So, they may compete to manufacture custom SSDs for PS5, not exclusive everyone competing. Hence, decreasing the price.
Or, they can put out a barebones SSD with no heat sink or other features required for PCs; to drive prices down.
AtomicStarving
Member
I'm excited to see some binaural audio next-gen. I hope PS5's audio tech can delivery that.
ZywyPL
Banned
If TFlops don't matter then why we don't have 8K 240FPS already? Oh wait, because they do. They are exactly the sole reason why XB1 runs games at 900p, PS4 at 1080p, Pro at 1440-1600p and 1X at 1800-2160p, while all the other components are pretty much the same, and Lockhart/PS5/XBX won't be any different.
Metroiddarks
Member
A simple game like a walking simulator can looks like that, the point was Xbox one X and PS4 pro are underutilized
for obvious reasons and this why we don't see games in that quality in the base consoles and this came from a
third party engine not some created specifically for use one of right now top consoles.
https://www.psu.com/news/unity-2018-game-engine-tech-demo/
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Wow, man, I'm really shocked! Most homes around here at least have one 4K TV, although all channels are now either 1080p or 1080i with rare 4K channels (subscription), and our national Oman TV as I'm told is 4K-ready but it's still not cost efficient from a satellite perspective, I guess. And you get hundreds of free 1080p channels, no subscriptions. Very few are still 1080i but the lesser broadcast through an antenna is still around 540p I guess. I watch most of the content in 4K when available on youtube, but can't watch 4K@60fps smoothly because I only have 16Mbps ADSL, but fiber optics are being planted around my neighborhood now and should be ready by next June then I might upgrade to 4K netflix. The Sultan lately ordered all telecom companies to feed even remote and rural villages with internet, mostly ADSL+5G/4G at first then fiber-optics. Previously I thought 1Tbps is the norm in Germany like few years back.
Here 1Gbps is still expensive at 150 OMR ($390/month)! Good for a big family and like 3 floors to share that juicy speed:1080p looks better on 4K as well, and in general it's pretty cheap for casually watching TV. For example, this 55" 4K Android TV is only 120 OMR ($312 USD), saw it in person and it's really good:
Ikon 55 inches 4K Ultra HD Smart LED TV, Black, IKE55EKS Online at Best Price | 44-55 Inches | Lulu Oman
Buy Ikon 55 inches 4K Ultra HD Smart LED TV, Black, IKE55EKS Online at the best price and get it delivered across Oman. Find best deals and offers for Oman on LuLu Hypermarket Oman
www.luluhypermarket.com
Countries like Japan already have 8K channels since late 2018:
8K is now being broadcast in Japan - Newsshooter
8K is now being broadcast in Japan. Japanese broadcaster NHK today started broadcasting 8K on a permanent basis. NHK collectively refers to 4K / 8K as
www.newsshooter.com
8K being normalized would benefit us all, it'll make high-end 4K TV's way cheaper than they are now. And yes, 8K is very noticeably better than 4K.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
Hmm....so Tom Warren from The Verge (Microsoft guy) is saying Lockhart won't hold games back and that TFLOPS don't matter.....at the same time....TFLOPS matter when PS5 is mentioned.
To get to the my main point, Xbox Lockhart DOES hold back games, what if a game uses GPU physics calculations and RT to design around it? A 4 TF ain't doing any of that even at 1080p, as XSX is gonna run at maybe 1800p or 1620p, and when Lockhart sells way higher than Series X (due to it being much cheaper), you'll see developers build their games on the lesser console and then just scale up that given game with higher resolutions and some better effects here and there, instead of building their games to take full advantage of 12 TF console.
The one thing that can save us from this shit hole, is the PlayStation 5, because it has almost the same specs as XSX with much faster SSD (so arguably, you can make even more elaborate & ambitious next-gen experience than even XSX), and can save the next-gen baseline from that shitty Lockhart console, because we all know PS5 will DESTROY Xbox in sales whether it's Lockhart or Series X!!
I hope my message gets through safely as I know I'm gonna get so much flak for staying the truth.
Your post is probably being discussed in a certain discord
and then mysteriously a force will try to report you and ban you 
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The Mad Draklor
Member
What is proportion of to-be next-gen console buyers who own 8K TV's?
This statement is true if we ignore that the XB1 used really slow DDR3 for memory, had an extremely tiny amount of esRAM, half the ROPs, and had a GPU that had no GPGPU capabilities compared to the PS4.
What is actually being argued is that the teraflops difference is not large enough to be immediately discernible. That is not the same as saying teraflops don't matter.
At lower resolutions, the pixel density difference is more apparent, but at higher resolutions, the pixel density difference is a lot smaller (22.2% > 8.6%).
Also, teraflops is the measurement of the theoretical peak performance. The XSX's GPU only churns out 12 trillion floating point calculations per second if it operates under ideal conditions. This also applies to the PS5's GPU churning out 10.3 trillion floating point calculations per second.
Graphics cards can only do calculations if their caches are fed with data. Factors that affect the system's ability to hit peak performance include:
- # of compute units - The more compute units, the more data you need to send to the GPU cache to keep the CU's busy. If not enough data is sent, then CU's will lay there not being used.
- The PS5 also has cache scrubbers that allows the system to only evict specific portions of the cache and replace those evictions with new data. The XSX, however, needs to invalidate the entire cache before feeding the GPU with new data. The latter situation makes the GPU more vulnerable to stalling, i.e. the GPU has no data in the cache to perform calculations.
- Clockspeed - Affects cache bandwidth (+), speed of command buffer (+), how far away the GPU is from memory (-), and rasterization speed (+).
- Memory interface, capacity, speed, and bandwidth - If the CPU uses 48 GB/s of bandwidth on the PS5, then it takes away 48 GB/s of bandwidth from the GPU. On the XSX's asymmetrical layout, if the CPU uses 48 GB/s of bandwidth, it takes away 80 GB/s of bandwidth from the GPU. Having the OS residing in the 6GB of the "slower" pool will also decrease the bandwidth of the "GPU-optimized" memory pool.
- Storage speed - How fast the SSD can send data to the I/O.
- I/O speed - How fast the I/O can sort out the data from storage before the data is admissible to RAM.
- The teraflops difference is not large enough that it will be visually obvious on screen.
- Teraflops only matter if the GPU is actually put in situations where it can achieve peak performance consistently.
ResilientBanana
Member
The
Xbox X - 4K Native - King Of TFLOPS
PS5 - 4K Native - Queen of TFLOPS
Xbox S - 1080/1440 - Peasant of TFLOPS
Xbox X - 4K Native - King Of TFLOPS
PS5 - 4K Native - Queen of TFLOPS
Xbox S - 1080/1440 - Peasant of TFLOPS
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TBiddy
Member
I stand my ground. No game will ever look that on a PS4 Pro or an X1X. Showing a tech demo will absolutely not convince me otherwise.
I really don't trust him after his angry response to those speculating about the github leak. Also he was wrong.
Are you saying because you have used the dev kit or just speculating?
why would you need to specify where it will go in memory, it's unified?
GPU usage scales with resolution. The CPU not so much. As long as the CPU is good I don't see it being a problem as long as the GPU can do the same number of ops per pixel.
edit: sorry about triple post.
Edit2: with better CPUs this gen the physics can probably be run on the cpu.
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xacto
Member
Yeah, I think at this point Sony should not even release the console. The concern of some people is touching.
xacto
Member
Well, at this point you're not even the devil's advocate, as you mentioned in a previous post, you're just another fanboy.
Yay.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
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Physiognomonics
Member
Maybe. But because of NDAs, they actually couldn't say if they had a PS5 devkit. Last time a dev simply acknowledged having PS5 devkits at the office (the poor codemaster guy), he got erased from the internet.
Bonsaibäumchen
Member
More rumors about HZD Sequals:
www.videogameschronicle.com
Guerrilla is planning a Horizon Zero Dawn trilogy | VGC
Plans for next-gen sequel indicate ‘gigantic’ scope and co-op mode…
www.videogameschronicle.com
- Status