Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Just made this tweet and folks, listen to the video, it seems like John Linneman from Digital Foundry is saying TFLOPS on paper aren't that important and that it may not be as suggested on paper, this podcast just ended hours ago......👀👀👀👀 I know this thread and the tweet that I made are gonna get a whole lot of COW SHIT STORM!! 😂😂😂😂

But it is the truth.


And the same thing he says for the teraflops, he says for the SSD. Since there are slight tools and hardware design differences between the two, it's not obvious to say who performs better in all cases.
 
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And the same thing he says for the teraflops, he says for the SSD. Since there are slight tools and hardware design differences between the two, it's not obvious to say who performs better in all cases.
Yeah we'll have to wait and see which one is faster or more powerful, but the numbers do give an indication.
 
People are still trying to say PS5 will be difficult to develop for? it's so laughable. The whole philosophy of both the PS4 and PS5 was that they would be easy to develop for. It's why Cerny prioritised a high speed SSD since it was the most requested feature by devs and the narrow and fast approach of the GPU along with the unified RAM will make it significantly easier to fully leverage and utilise the consoles power and capabilities.

We've already heard from so many reliable sources that the PS5 is very easy to develop for and that the SSD has taken a lot of headache off the developers because they no longer need to worry about the I/O throughput when designing levels/maps.

To say otherwise is just baseless and non-sensical speculation.
 
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People are still trying to say PS5 will be difficult to develop for? it's so laughable. The whole philosophy of both the PS4 and PS5 was that they would be easy to develop for. It's why Cerny prioritised a high speed SSD since it was the most requested feature by devs and the narrow and fast approach of the GPU along with the unified RAM will make it significantly easier to fully leverage and utilise the consoles power and capabilities.

We've already heard from so many reliable sources that the PS5 is very easy to develop for and that the SSD has taken a lot of headache off the developers because they no longer need to worry about the I/O throughput when designing levels/maps.

To say otherwise is just baseless and non-sensical speculation.
Well I think both consoles will be easy to develop for.
If anything Sony's low level API will be a bit harder to develop for but also more performant, relatively speaking...
 
Well I think both consoles will be easy to develop for.
If anything Sony's low level API will be a bit harder to develop for but also more performant, relatively speaking...
Ps4 low level api was easy to develop for and Cerny said this console was even easier to get engines up and running. Cut it down from 6-8 weeks to 4 weeks. How is that more difficult
 
Well I think both consoles will be easy to develop for.
If anything Sony's low level API will be a bit harder to develop for but also more performant, relatively speaking...
Those days are long gone. Starting with the PS4, Sony have been putting effort into making the SDK more familiar for developers who usually work on PC and Xbox.
 
Please explain how MS will reutilize XSX chips. How do they that?
The same way it has been done for decades already by AMD and Intel - if chip does not pass for XSX (not enough working CUs or can't reach the target clock at target voltage), then it will be tested for XSS specs compliance, if those are met then it will be used in XSS. In case there will be insufficient number of scrapped chips to meet XSS demand, they will use the full working XSX chips when building XSS. This is a standard process for any modern GPUs and CPUs. For example, all current 8, 6 and 4 core Ryzens use the same chiplet.

even Panello shot that rumor down. It's a fanboy fantasy

it doesn't make any logistical sense, because the scrapped chips wouldn't be high enough volume, and it changes the physical design on the motherboard if you had a combination of big defective chips and small chips.

First of all - it is only a theory, but it is based on logic and analysis of available data. Calling it a "fanboy fantasy"? Have you been like watching the industry for the past 20 years at least? Nobody is reusing scrapped chips from top products in cheaper ones? Is this a fantasy in our world? Am I imagining things? No. This is an industry standard for decades. And it is you who needs to get back to reality and stop posting fanboy nonsense.

Secondly, here is the list of things hinting at the reuse of XSX chips in XSS:
- Very low target price for XSS at $250. It would be much easier to achieve this target if chip costs would be shifted on to XSX buyers.
- Virtually ZERO leaks about any second chip being developed by AMD for MS. Although we have numerous leaks of 2 consoles, not once there was mentioned a second chip.
- Current XSX dev-kits having both XSX mode and XSS mode. So one single chip is used to develop for both consoles.

I am not saying that this is how it is going to happen, I don't know if XSS will ever be released and if it will reuse the XSX chip. But currently available information points that this is the most likely scenario how things will unfold. And , of course, we can never exclude other scenarios, but their probability is much lower.
 
XSX chips will not have lower binned versions become XSS. XSS will have a far smaller die size with less CUs in order to cost less. Additionally, MS has already discussed another use case for XSX chips, project X cloud, where 1 XSX APU can power 4 simultaneous virtual XOS. I'd imagine any kept Dies that can't run with more than the normal 4 deactivated CUs will be used for Xcloud, possibly only running 3 XOS instead of 4.
 
The same way it has been done for decades already by AMD and Intel - if chip does not pass for XSX (not enough working CUs or can't reach the target clock at target voltage), then it will be tested for XSS specs compliance, if those are met then it will be used in XSS. In case there will be insufficient number of scrapped chips to meet XSS demand, they will use the full working XSX chips when building XSS. This is a standard process for any modern GPUs and CPUs. For example, all current 8, 6 and 4 core Ryzens use the same chiplet.



First of all - it is only a theory, but it is based on logic and analysis of available data. Calling it a "fanboy fantasy"? Have you been like watching the industry for the past 20 years at least? Nobody is reusing scrapped chips from top products in cheaper ones? Is this a fantasy in our world? Am I imagining things? No. This is an industry standard for decades. And it is you who needs to get back to reality and stop posting fanboy nonsense.

Secondly, here is the list of things hinting at the reuse of XSX chips in XSS:
- Very low target price for XSS at $250. It would be much easier to achieve this target if chip costs would be shifted on to XSX buyers.
- Virtually ZERO leaks about any second chip being developed by AMD for MS. Although we have numerous leaks of 2 consoles, not once there was mentioned a second chip.
- Current XSX dev-kits having both XSX mode and XSS mode. So one single chip is used to develop for both.


Can you give me an example of a high end card that is repurposed and sold as a 1/3 as powerful card for half the price?

Can you explain why it doesn't impact the motherboard and form size of the console?
 
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And the same thing he says for the teraflops, he says for the SSD. Since there are slight tools and hardware design differences between the two, it's not obvious to say who performs better in all cases.
The SSD is downplayed I think. You can explain away that 18% can somehow be made up. But 2x the SSD speed? Nope
 
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Just made this tweet and folks, listen to the video, it seems like John Linneman from Digital Foundry is saying TFLOPS on paper aren't that important and that it may not be as suggested on paper, this podcast just ended hours ago......👀👀👀👀 I know this thread and the tweet that I made are gonna get a whole lot of COW SHIT STORM!! 😂😂😂😂

But it is the truth.



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Yeah tht ssd difference is just too much of a difference it's not comparable to making up ground on the TF difference especially since devs are talking about the ssd capabilities in terms of game design. Now we wait and see if devs will take tht into consideration with their designs. We know first parties will.
 
The SSD is downplayed I think. You can explain away that 18% can somehow be made up. But 2x the SSD speed? Nope
The SSD is going to make a smaller perceivable difference between the two consoles, then something like Ray traced effects, or free visual upgrades when using older titles. Both SSD's are fast. People up until now had no idea about drive speed being a bottleneck, and literally didn't notice any differences in load times of both current consoles or the gen before that. Load times is a comparison only done in benchmarking, ( with very few people actually buying the same game when owning two consoles ) and the majority of the public won't see the difference.

People here should be looking at what consumers will see when they watch videos online, or commercials advertising the latest games.

What they will see, is overall performance (framerate), if one game looks better on one platform (Resolution, art style, textures, lighting etc...), if one game looks more fun than another (gameplay)
 
The SSD is downplayed I think. You can explain away that 18% can somehow be made up. But 2x the SSD speed? Nope

He was throwing them a bone to not get so much flak for what he said.

2x SSD raw speed AND I/O. That 10 seconds loading times in the xsex loading demo showcase does not inspire confidence. It suggests xsex I/O is out of whack. But let's give it the benefit of the doubt.
 
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He was throwing them a bone to not get so much flak for what he said.

2x SSD raw speed AND I/O. That 10 seconds loading times in the xsex loading demo showcase does not inspire confidence. It suggests xsex I/O is out of whack. But let's give it the benefit of the doubt.


I have a theory that some misinformed people will think the PS5 is more powerful just because it loads things faster and has better streaming.
 
Can you give me an example of a high end card that is repurposed and sold as a 1/3 as powerful card for half the price?

Can you explain why it doesn't impact the motherboard and form size of the console?

AMD Athlon XP T-Bred core, the same chip was used in low end CPU for around $60 and top-end CPU for around $500. And because yields were so good, you could basically buy almost any 60 buck chip and overclock it to the same clocks as $500 chip. Golden times of CPU overclocking. How about that?
Jokes aside, consoles use APUs - and just look at AMD Renoir, using the same APU chip from top to bottom with numerous configurations of CPU and GPU cores/clocks. Nothing new here.

Regarding the impact on motherboard and size of the console - because chip will use less compute units at lower frequency, it will consume significantly less power. Less power = less heat. This means much smaller box, simpler and cheaper cooling and PSU. Also, less memory chips and narrower bandwidth mean cheaper and simpler motherboard design.

The size of the APU chip itself never mattered that much, unless you try to build some kind of an ultra-slim, ultra-light laptop like macbook air, where even the die area could matter and the number/location of memory chips. For regular laptop and consoles - the main points driving the design always have been TDP of the chip and number of lanes, their efficiency needed in motherboard to connect the rest of the components. And both of these will be significantly lower and cheaper in XSS compared to XSX.
 
Just made this tweet and folks, listen to the video, it seems like John Linneman from Digital Foundry is saying TFLOPS on paper aren't that important and that it may not be as suggested on paper, this podcast just ended hours ago......👀👀👀👀 I know this thread and the tweet that I made are gonna get a whole lot of COW SHIT STORM!! 😂😂😂😂

But it is the truth.



Damn, RIP John. They're coming for ya!
 
John has always been the more level headed, passionate for the games guy at DF. Brands aren't really his thing, that's more the other guy thing.

Your right about that. I like to hear from John because he seems pretty neutral when compared to Richard. It's always interesting to hear his side of things unfortunately some people harass him on Gaf of I'm not mistaken.

Just to clear something up. Is that dictator guy Richard Leadbetter?
 
People seem to be caught up on the SSD speed but PS5 has a whole complex with onboard RAM dedicated to I/O this isn't just about getting the data off of the SSD it's directing traffic throughout the system.


The fact that people don't think this will increase performance is crazy to me.
 
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AMD Athlon XP T-Bred core, the same chip was used in low end CPU for around $60 and top-end CPU for around $500. And because yields were so good, you could basically buy almost any 60 buck chip and overclock it to the same clocks as $500 chip. Golden times of CPU overclocking. How about that?
Jokes aside, consoles use APUs - and just look at AMD Renoir, using the same APU chip from top to bottom with numerous configurations of CPU and GPU cores/clocks. Nothing new here.

Regarding the impact on motherboard and size of the console - because chip will use less compute units at lower frequency, it will consume significantly less power. Less power = less heat. This means much smaller box, simpler and cheaper cooling and PSU. Also, less memory chips and narrower bandwidth mean cheaper and simpler motherboard design.

The size of the APU chip itself never mattered that much, unless you try to build some kind of an ultra-slim, ultra-light laptop like macbook air, where even the die area could matter and the number/location of memory chips. For regular laptop and consoles - the main points driving the design always have been TDP of the chip and number of lanes, their efficiency needed in motherboard to connect the rest of the components. And both of these will be significantly lower and cheaper in XSS compared to XSX.


So basically there's no reason why MS won't do it, and if they don't do it is because?

I mean I've seen that shot down many times before but according to what you wrote there's no reason for MS to no do it, so they have to do it.


Your right about that. I like to hear from John because he seems pretty neutral when compared to Richard. It's always interesting to hear his side of things unfortunately some people harass him on Gaf of I'm not mistaken.

Just to clear something up. Is that dictator guy Richard Leadbetter?

Ditactor is Alex, and to me he's the one who clearly is a douche with a chip on his shoulder regarding PlayStation but whatever.
 
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I have a theory that some misinformed people will think the PS5 is more powerful just because it loads things faster and has better streaming.

"More powerful" is a misplaced term. These machines are not computing machines designed to churn out numbers. These are gaming machines designed to display geometry, textures, and details that are created for the games.

Texture resolution alone in PC shows that increasing the texture detail and resolution do not require compute resources. You only need enough RAM to house all those texture details. With PS5 SSD and I/O, more details and geometry can be streamed even as the player turn his view. Imagine the amount of insane details. Megatextures, microtextures everywhere.

John talked about the tools and nodded to the efficiency shown by PS's tools in the past console.

Who needs a "more powerful" when you can have a "more efficient" console with an efficient architecture designed to stream data without bottlenecks.
 
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Your right about that. I like to hear from John because he seems pretty neutral when compared to Richard. It's always interesting to hear his side of things unfortunately some people harass him on Gaf of I'm not mistaken.

Just to clear something up. Is that dictator guy Richard Leadbetter?

No, Dictator is the Alex dude.
 
People seem to be caught up on the SSD speed but PS5 has a whole complex with onboard RAM dedicated to I/O this isn't just about getting the data of the SSD it's directing traffic throughout the system.


The fact that people don't think this will increase performance is crazy to me.

I/O is super important.

It's the difference between: 1-second of loading to 10 seconds of loading.

9GB of data per second is retrievable in a pool of 825GB vs 4GB of data per ten seconds is retrievable in a pool of 1TB.
 
People seem to be caught up on the SSD speed but PS5 has a whole complex with onboard RAM dedicated to I/O this isn't just about getting the data of the SSD it's directing traffic throughout the system.


The fact that people don't think this will increase performance is crazy to me.

Seriously. People are going to be in for a world of shock.
 
"More powerful" is a misplaced term. These machines are not computing machines designed to churn out numbers. These are gaming machines designed to display geometry, textures, and details that are created for the games.

Texture resolution alone in PC shows that increasing the texture detail and resolution do not not compute resources. You only need enough RAM to house all these texture details. With PS5 SSD and I/O, more details and geometry can be streamed even as the player turn his view. Imagine the amount of insane details. Megatextures, microtextures everywhere.

John talked about the tools and nodded to the efficiently shown by PS's tools in the past console.

Who needs "more powerful" when you can have a "more efficient" console with an efficient architecture designed to stream data without bottlenecks.

Interesting.
No, Dictator is the Alex dude.


Thanks for the clarification. I was getting Richard and Alex confused.
 
But what John says doesn't make sense otherwise we'd be seeing PS4 Pro performing equally or better than the Xbox One X. But it's never happened in multiplatform games (except where X1X has gone for a higher than necessary resolution and therefore suffers in framerate).
 
PS3 -> CELL were powerful yet really difficult to program, memory architecture were difficult also, GPU were kind of shitty and NVIDIA screwed Sony
Nvidia build RSX for Sony assuming 2005 launch window and back then 7800 GTX was still considered a high end GPU, so how exactly Nv screwed Sony? Keep in mind it was Sony decision to delay PS3 launch to 2006 and of course 8800 series launched soon making RSX look weak in comparison.

So I dont believe Nv screwed sony, however it's a fact ATI / AMD build for MS even better GPU. Xenos (x360 GPU) was the first GPU with unified shaders and it was a revolutionary technology (ATI / AMD was top dog back then). Sony could probably ask Nv to build for them something based on 8800 series for 2006 launch window, but then they would have to pay Nv for a new project and it's extremely expensive.
 
But what John says doesn't make sense otherwise we'd be seeing PS4 Pro performing equally or better than the Xbox One X. But it's never happened in multiplatform games (except where X1X has gone for a higher than necessary resolution and therefore suffers in framerate).

You do realize it's more than just teraflops with the differences between the X and the Pro correct? One of the main things being memory size and bandwidth.
 
250$ does sound too low, but XSS has a lot of areas where MS can save on BOM. My guess is:
PS5 - 499$
XSX - 499$
XSS - 349$


Turning off parts of the GPU in order to make a lower-tier GPU from parts that didn't pass certification is extremely common, but there is a limit to how far you can push it. Turning off 4 CUs is very common and even 8 CUs happen here and there, but Lockheart's GPU will have to be at least half the CU count the XSX has if XSS is 4TF. When you turn off 4 CUs you improve yields considerably, but turning off 28 CUs (and probably a full SE and at least 128-bit worth of memory controllers) is a huge silicon waste. That's why the 5500 is a whole new chip, not a 5700XT with more CU disabled.

Lockheart will have a separate SOC, not the same one as XSX.

Bingo. This! Been waiting for someone to point out how building full XSX APU's and simply wasting all that silicon and space to make a supposed "lockhart" CPU is simply dumb. Huge waste of money because you would STILL be building the XSX chips! Costs don't just magically go away. Separate chipset means separate R&D, testing, production lines.

I still doubt that this "lockhart" strategy can be a winner for MS. My best guess is that's why we heard it was shelved. They may keep it for an emergency where the global economy won't support the XSX, but if that's the case, I still don't think it would help them. If that happened, people would just stick with the current generation that they own...probably wouldn't be buying any or many games either in those circumstances.
 
It's not the same at all. IO setups have changed, and the split pool also splits the bandwidth.

Fair enough but I'm still expecting the PS5 to come out worse in multiplatform games. Be nice if it didn't, however. Would make my life a lot easier with only having to buy one system. 😋
 
So basically there's no reason why MS won't do it, and if they don't do it is because?

I mean I've seen that shot down many times before but according to what you wrote there's no reason for MS to no do it, so they have to do it.

If we imagine a hypothetical scenario, pure speculation, where XSX chip 7nm yields are so good that over 90% of the chips pass for XSX. AND if MS market analysis shows that they will sell way more XSS consoles than XSX, like 80% of the user base would go for XSS and 20% would buy XSX. Then it would make complete sense in the long run to spend money on designing a separate smaller and cheaper chip for XSS.
However, you can't exactly predict 3-4 years in advance how good the yields will be on a completely unknown process. Moreover it would be a very shortsighted approach to expect very good yields for such unknown process in the future, therefore MS should have considered mediocre or bad yields when designing their chip and plan accordingly. And this actually makes another argument in favor of a theory that MS has planned reusing the scrapped XSX chips for XSS from the very beginning

I must add, of course, that current situation, where 7nm yields at TSMC are actually pretty good and market is in recession, so there will definitely be more demand for cheaper console, just begs for a separate chip being used in XSS. However, Microsoft could not have expected this, I don't believe it would be possible to predict how things will turn out today back in 2016-17, when they started designing next-gen consoles. And now both Sony and MS will have to adapt their plans to current situation, we will see how it goes in the coming months.
 
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