Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

Status
Not open for further replies.
Darius87 said:
can someone explain how 100 GB could be instantly accessible? i mean instantly is like less then a 1 second unless xsex has compresion ratio 1 : 80 that would make sense for it's ssd 2.4gb/s.
100gb / 4.8gb/s = 20.8 sec if that's instant then i don't know what else to say. unless ms explains what's is hapening under the hood i call this bs.
Click to expand...
It most likely means you can access any data from the 100GB 'pool' (although it won't necessarily be a pool but simply the installed game) without latency. It doesn't mean that all the data can be actually transferred instantly. If you have to access random data within 100GB of stage, you have basically near zero latency for transfer of that data. The throughput will still be limited to the 2.4GB/s, not taking into account the compression and SFS.

But no one is really sure yet.
 
Darius87 said:
can someone explain how 100 GB could be instantly accessible? i mean instantly is like less then a 1 second unless xsex has compresion ratio 1 : 80 that would make sense for it's ssd 2.4gb/s.
100gb / 4.8gb/s = 20.8 sec if that's instant then i don't know what else to say. unless ms explains what's is hapening under the hood i call this bs.
Click to expand...

I guess by "100Gb instantly accessible" they mean 100Gb can be mapped like memory on the SSD do when you need asset x you know exactly where it is - like a variable stored in ram memory but it still takes time to read. Even system memory isn't "instant", or L1, L2 or L3 cache for that matter.
 
Rusco Da Vino said:
That is the point, it is simply a Direct X feature.

It is not magic hidden hardware or new exclusive rdna feature.

The "same" tech has been used by Sony and MS since (at least) 2013. It is called RDT (Partially Resident Textures)

rWxpswS.jpg


Partially Resident Textures | RenderingPipeline

renderingpipeline.com renderingpipeline.com
Click to expand...
The parent of this solutions born for ID tech 4 for the use of megatexture, lead by John Carmack (I know you heard that name before) \
if you remember in that time of Xbox 360 and PS3 had a big problem with few memory available for the devs.



Here this guys explain in a simple way that feature.
 
Ascend said:
Then why are MS claiming 2x - 3x improvement over Xbox One X?


You mean the arguments that mention the word "you" almost 10 times in three sentences? Yeah... I wouldn't classify those as arguments with 'bases'.
Click to expand...
You explain us why, like if that kind of technology doesn't exist than more of 10 years maybe not so good but exists that is why is important to understand you argumen before
of say it.

I gave source which susten everything I say those are bases.
 
Last edited:
Bonsaibäumchen said:
Seriously for me it like I would try to discuss something that Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking backed.
No need to. Feel free to continue but I won't discuss which hardware is superior or has what advantages anymore.
Click to expand...

That is a cute approach. :)

The rest of us will continue discussing the parts that are better on the XSX and the parts that are better on PS5.
 
Metroiddarks said:
You explain us why, like if that kind of technology doesn't exist than more of 10 years maybe not so good but exists that is why is important to understand you argumen before
of say it.

I gave source which susten everything I say those are bases.
Click to expand...
Why would Microsoft advertise for something that has been done since the X360 PS3 era? Maybe, just maybe, they are doing something different.
 
Whatever this 100gb is it can't be that good as a lot of dev opinions still put the ps5 way ahead in that area...

So my question again without the specific io hardware how does xbox potential use that 100gb and does it cost the cpu performance? Everything io in ps5 is taken care of and the cpu free isnt it?
 
Bonsaibäumchen said:
Yeah but in the end Sweeny showed their Tech for PS5, and Carmack backed up some facts about the design.
For me thats enough to know that I don't have to particpate in further discussions.

Seriously for me it like I would try to discuss something that Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking backed.
No need to. Feel free to continue but I won't discuss which hardware is superior or has what advantages anymore.
Click to expand...
Is good way to learn to discuss about this topic for example when Cerny talk about his SSD I just tough 2 things aside the loading screen:

-The life for the artists and dev will easier
-Some games will have better textures and models

Because I wasn't expecting see REYES be possible in real time that like "ha Cerny has that in mind for use so much money in the dev that SSD and IO"
that expand my curiosity to see how the studios will use that new approach.
 
Ascend said:
Why would Microsoft advertise for something that has been done since the X360 PS3 era? Maybe, just maybe, they are doing something different.
Click to expand...
Well they are advertising smart delivery as much as possible when it is just crossbuy and existed from ps3 through vita and ps4 including cloud saves and crossbuy dlcs.
Do you know MS PR team are genius at showing something old with a new name and make believe it's an innovation?

And I'd add it's especially easy for these functionnalities to be advertised as new because most people don't understand.

They're not the only one though don't worry every constructor has done it but they're the best at it , every single gen.
 
Sony: Partnership With Microsoft on Cloud Gaming Is Going to Be "Very Strong;" PS5 Lineup Reveal Teased

We hear that Sony is taking a long-term view on this partnership and is discussing the details of the collaboration with Microsoft.

Specifically about games, the discussion focuses on how streaming services from the cloud should be. According to executive vice president Toru Katsumoto, Microsoft's Azure has "splendid" cloud technology and Microsoft has provided Sony with explanations about it.

Mutual understanding between the two companies is "deepening" following discussions over the past year.

One of the points being discussed is the "dark time" since gamers usually play at night, so there may be congestion of the servers during that timeframe, while during the day there are no issues. Due to this, how to use the servers effectively and efficiently is a relevant technical point on the table.

Katsumoto-san concluded by mentioning that on a mid-to-long-term basis this is going to be a "very strong partnership."

twinfinite.net

Sony: Partnership With Microsoft on Cloud Gaming Is Going to Be "Very Strong;" PS5 Lineup Reveal Teased

Sony is hosting its Corporate Strategy Meeting in Tokyo, and its executives provided more information about the PlayStation business.
twinfinite.net twinfinite.net
 
ethomaz said:
It is the same but impoved.
Another name for SFS is PRT+ as described in MS docs.

Sampler Feedback

Engineering specs for DirectX features.
microsoft.github.io

"Use of sampler feedback with streaming is sometimes abbreviated as SFS. It is also sometimes called sparse feedback textures, or SFT, or PRT+, which stands for "partially resident textures". "
If I have to guess the GPUs that supports PRT are all Sampler Feedback TIER_0_9.
Click to expand...
We finally have it (without FUD).

SFS (PRT+) is a evolution of the Partially Resident Textures, a tech used by MS and Sony since 2013 (at least).

So yes, Sony is going to have its own PRT+ since they have revamped their tools and API for the PS5 (as BGs BGs told us)

1. Is the Sony solution going to be as good or even better than this SFS? We will see.

2. Is this SFS (PRT+) from MS going to close the gap btw the SSDs speed? No fucking way, that is BS originated from the ResentEra Dicord FUD.
 
Last edited:
Ascend said:
Why would Microsoft advertise for something that has been done since the X360 PS3 era? Maybe, just maybe, they are doing something different.
Click to expand...
For that same reason I do not want you to be so credulous, they talk about a situation in which there is no similar solution.

Why they did it? I think you know why.

They mention its last technology in the same documentation as they want to improved that is why the got SF in order to get more control of this
but they also mention you cannot use every call you do per texture.
 
Darius87 said:
can someone explain how 100 GB could be instantly accessible? i mean instantly is like less then a 1 second unless xsex has compresion ratio 1 : 80 that would make sense for it's ssd 2.4gb/s.
100gb / 4.8gb/s = 20.8 sec if that's instant then i don't know what else to say. unless ms explains what's is hapening under the hood i call this bs.
Click to expand...

It's kinda bs'ing it, but at the same time there's a really good fundamental rethink of how VRAM and storage works with the HBCC model. Instead of a VRAM pool and a storage pool that only work so far as loading one with the other, it's rethinking the VRAM as a caching layer to all the assets in storage, and with a high cache hit rate they're saying you could expect about that much to be ready for you when you need it.

Think of CPUs, if they only relied on RAM getting faster they'd have a horrible time, but they have three or sometimes more layers of caching in front of the RAM, and with a high cache hit rate that's how you get todays CPU performance when RAM hasn't come up remotely as fast.
 
MasterCornholio said:
I agree. I don't see them gimping the CPU and GPU in exchange for slightly faster load times. There has to be a reason why Sony did this investment in the I/O.
Click to expand...


I don't see them as gimping the CPU for sure. Its basically the same as xsx and may have less load on it with tempest and ssd io hardware in ps5. The GPU isn't as powerful on paper as xbox s x but the benefits of faster rasterisation and caches etc are so far a bit of an unknown?

Yes CPU and GPU and 'variable' but apparently will hit max clocks 99% of the time. They are not 100% utilized all the time anyway.

Take with pinch of salt and lots more interesting things mentioned but also about the clocks. Brilliantly put together way back in the thread by Neferlotus.

Neferlotus said:
I am not sure if this has already been talked about earlier but since I have not seen it I will post it here. There is a LOT of information so I have put it in pictures.

The following information is taken from "Moore's law is dead" youtube channel and specially from his comment section where he talks more indepth what third party developer have told him and his personal analysis.

The comments come from several diffrent videos. Important to know is that his sources are all third party developers and he has inside information om both consoles.

FC6NV1e.png


rRvhsvP.png


cFgFOSS.png


Leaked images and info:


His Info from comment sections:


Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Rusco Da Vino said:
We finally have it (without FUD).

SFS (PRT+) is a evolution of the Partially Resident Textures, a tech used by MS and Sony since 2013 (at least).

So yes, Sony is going to have its own PRT+ since they have revamped their tools and API for the PS5 (as BGs BGs told us)

1. Is the Sony solution going to be as good even better that the SFS? We will see.

2. Is this SFS (PRT+) from MS going to close the gap btw the SSDs speed? No fucking way, that is BS originated on the ResentEra Dicord FUD.
Click to expand...

Agree

The funny thing is, the UE5 demo was showing us in action exactly that, putting on screen just what we could see ...there was no way the ps5 was loading the full textures of every object. That would be silly.

PRT / SFS, super duper picky bits of things grabber....whatever the fick people want to call it
 
azertydu91 said:
Well they are advertising smart delivery as much as possible when it is just crossbuy and existed from ps3 through vita and ps4 including cloud saves and crossbuy dlcs.
Click to expand...
That doesn't seem like the same thing. I never owned a Vita, but could you buy a game on the Vita, and play that same game on the PS4 with upgraded graphics? What about the PS3 to PS4? Note that it's different from backwards compatibility.

azertydu91 said:
Do you know MS PR team are genius at showing something old with a new name and make believe it's an innovation?

And I'd add it's especially easy for these functionnalities to be advertised as new because most people don't understand.

They're not the only one though don't worry every constructor has done it but they're the best at it , every single gen.
Click to expand...
Time will tell. I still think SFS is being underestimated, particularly because they have a hardware texture filter specifically to accompany the sampler feedback feature.
 
Last edited:
Rusco Da Vino said:
We finally have it (without FUD).

SFS (PRT+) is a evolution of the Partially Resident Textures, a tech used by MS and Sony since 2013 (at least).

So yes, Sony is going to have its own PRT+ since they have revamped their tools and API for the PS5 (as BGs BGs told us)

1. Is the Sony solution going to be as good even better that the SFS? We will see.

2. Is this SFS (PRT+) from MS going to close the gap btw the SSDs speed? No fucking way, that is BS originated on the ResentEra Dicord FUD.
Click to expand...
Lest say for everyone's sake SF improved enough to be mentioned and may be better than the PS5 solution which we do not know what happened.

How much improve? we don't' know
PS5 will have exactly the same thing? they follow a similar objective in a similar way but no equals
This will improve the memory 3 times? not but now the dev have more control of the feature

Are we agree Ascend Ascend ?
 
Ascend said:
That doesn't seem like the same thing. I never owned a Vita, but could you buy a game on the Vita, and play that same game on the PS4 with upgraded graphics? What about the PS3 to PS4? Note that it's different from backwards compatibility.


Time will tell. I still think SFS is being underestimated, particularly because they have a hardware texture filter specifically to accompany the sampler feedback feature.
Click to expand...
If the game supported cross buy you got virtually the exact same game minus graphics on the platforms it was for. The PS4 games always had improved graphics over the vita version even if it was the vita version you bought.
 
Last edited:
Metroiddarks said:
Lest say for everyone's sake SF improved enough to be mentioned and may be better than the PS5 solution which we do not know what happened.
Click to expand...
Wait wait wait. I never said it will be better than the PS5 solution. Sony's raw throughput is simply more than twice the speed of the XSX. I did say that SFS is being underestimated.

Metroiddarks said:
How much improve? we don't' know
Click to expand...
If we believe their 2x - 3x statement means nothing, sure.

Metroiddarks said:
PS5 will have exactly the same thing? they follow a similar objective in a similar way but no equals
This will improve the memory 3 times? not but now the dev have more control of the feature

Are we agree Ascend Ascend Ascend Ascend ?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if the PS5 will have the exact same thing, because I don't know if the PS5 has a hardware texture filter specifically designed to take advantage of sampler feedback. It's that hardware component that supposedly allows seamless streaming on the XSX without pop-in, by using sampler feedback.

If the PS5 can support it in the same way, then we are back to square one, where the ratio between the SSD speeds remains the same. The PS5 maintains the same lead advantage in SSD speeds.
If the PS5 cannot support the same feature, the SSD advantage of the PS5 diminishes. By how much, we don't know.
 
Last edited:
geordiemp said:
Agree

The funny thing is, the UE5 demo was showing us in action exactly that, putting on screen just what we could see ...there was no way the ps5 was loading the full textures of every object. That would be silly.

PRT / SFS, super duper picky bits of things grabber....whatever the fick people want to call it
Click to expand...
It does not matter what you show to some "users".

They are going to keep coming here to spread their BS without consequences.

Just imagine if me or other users start to say that the PS5 has more TFs than the Series X because it has AMD SmartShip tech and dont get banned 🤷‍♂️
 
Last edited:
RookX22 said:
Its funny you mentioned red dead since RDR2 is one of the first games that do what you asked in the first paragraph. Check out the gamers nexus video of how it stuttera on 4 core 4 thread pcs.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing the example of RDR2 and also for pointing out the Gamers Nexus benchmark.
  • PlayStation 4, Xbox One - October 26, 2018
  • Microsoft Windows - November 5, 2019
Approximately a year more for PC Port for PS4/XB1 game.

So I guess we should expect similar or longer development cycle and not lesser, for the PC port of the next Rockstar game developed with engines catered for to maximize performance from PS5/XBoxSX.

150ms of stuttering for i5-7600k 4C/4T CPU :messenger_hushed:.
 
SRS is a heuristic version of what a proper, in engine Virtual Texture / Megatexture tech did already. I.D. the assets to be loaded and load them. id Tech 5 already indexed all assets in a scene so didn't need it. UE5 does the same. Other engines might not and rely on large pages. SRS will help there. It doesn't act as a multiplier, it just frees some space on the highway.

Nanite isn't too far away from Virtual Textures, it partially loads geometry.

If people can't see why a SSD->Hardware Decompression-> VRAM path improves over a PC with SSD -> CPU + Software Decompression (on one thread per decompression job as that's all you can do really, unless you want to fill your CPU up with compression jobs) -> RAM -> GPU Driver -> VRAM. There's nothing more I can say, you can't throw more drives in RAID, you need different tech in the PC space, and you will get it eventually. This will improve image fidelity by giving more unique data to render. It will not improve the rendering of that data or the framerate in an A/B of loading what's in VRAM to the screen.
 
Last edited:
Ascend said:
That doesn't seem like the same thing. I never owned a Vita, but could you buy a game on the Vita, and play that same game on the PS4 with upgraded graphics? What about the PS3 to PS4? Note that it's different from backwards compatibility.


Time will tell. I still think SFS is being underestimated, particularly because they have a hardware texture filter specifically to accompany the sampler feedback feature.
Click to expand...
Yeah there's no backward compatibility on ps4 so you just have the ps4 version as well as vita's version and ps3's version as well as their dlcs and compatible cloud saves. 0 difference and no bullshit marketing term.

You seem mostly misinformed but that alright first the 2 or 3x figures compares with sfs and without any form of partially resident textures.How much better is it than last gen prt? nobody knows.Has sony upgraded their tools?Yes and considering their partnership with epic it seems obvious they also have either an upgraded prt or theirs works well enough to stream 8K textures which would otherwise fill pretty quickly their 16GB of ram (that's not even counting the ram reserved to the OS)

That will be an interesting gen this time because current gen I have given up on xbox as an editor but now I hope they will deliver.I trust sony simply because they haven't prove me wrong for any generation (yes even ps3 but I am biased because it helped me overcome depression and a year and a half on an hospital bed).
But man I want to see great games everywhere and I hope the upcoming announcement will be great.

But off topic(and not aimed toward you, or maybe, I don"t know your post history) I don't understand why people feel the need to diminish other side?Does it make your console better or your games more fun?

We get shit on by medias, politicians even W.H.O shit on us and we go on forums to shit on eachother because they chose a different product?

It can be legimitate to have a discussion argumentative here because it's a speculation and very technical thread dependant of the background some may understand better or misunderstand.

But ffs let's just keep it civil and understand that some sources are shitty others not at all but can still be wrong.So twitter fighting is stupid.

Sorry the rant part was not planned and probably not aimed at you but let's unite as gamers and show that we can be positive and not toxic.

Maybe we need the next generation of gamers.
 
Darius87 said:
can someone explain how 100 GB could be instantly accessible? i mean instantly is like less then a 1 second unless xsex has compresion ratio 1 : 80 that would make sense for it's ssd 2.4gb/s.
100gb / 4.8gb/s = 20.8 sec if that's instant then i don't know what else to say. unless ms explains what's is hapening under the hood i call this bs.
Click to expand...

"Instant" just means the data can be accessed by the cpu/gpu as if it was in (very slow) ram - theres no filesystem lookup to do first.

I don't imagine most devs will want to leave the data sat on the SSD when it's about 200x slower than vram. So in practice this doesn't seem like it will gain much - it will have to be paged into the vram for manipulation.
 
Last edited:
Sycomunkee said:
Yup I got you, it's also referred to in a Direct X link as Sampler Feedback. It all makes sense now.
Click to expand...
Being referred to does not mean that it is the same thing. Yes, PRT allows you to request textures on demand. What does that mean? It means if event X happens (maybe a certain checkpoint in-game), you can order the code to load texture pages A, C, D and F for example, from disk to RAM. But that does not tell you anything about which textures are actually used afterwards. It only tells you which to load in preparation for the future. This is the old method of programming, where you need to have everything in RAM that you might be using within the next 30 seconds or so.

What the XSX is doing is different. Yes, it is using this principle of tiling. But MS found with the Xbox One X, that using the method above, they are actually using half to a third of the texture pages that are loaded into RAM. So maybe you loaded A,C, D and F, and you only used C and F for example. The lanes are also occupied by all 4 textures while loading from the disk to RAM. All those had to be loaded and ultimately took both bandwidth from I/O and RAM space for no reason. By using sampler feedback in combination with their texture filter, you keep a very low quality texture in RAM, and when the order comes to actually render (rather than an order to only load) the higher quality texture, you immediately stream it from the SSD into RAM for rendering. So only C and F would ever need to be transferred from SSD. So A and D would not take bandwidth from the SSD, nor would they take RAM space before they are actually required on-screen, that would have been taken if you merely used PRT.
 
Last edited:
Ascend said:
Being referred to does not mean that it is the same thing. Yes, PRT allows you to request textures on demand. What does that mean? It means if event X happens (maybe a certain checkpoint in-game), you can order the code to load texture pages A, C, D and F for example, from disk to RAM. But that does not tell you anything about which textures are actually used afterwards. It only tells you which to load in preparation for the future. This is the old method of programming, where you need to have everything in RAM that you might be using within the next 30 seconds or so.

What the XSX is doing is different. Yes, it is using this principle of tiling. But MS found with the Xbox One X, that using the method above, they are actually using half to a third of the texture pages that are loaded into RAM. So maybe you loaded A,C, D and F, and you only used C and F for example. The lanes are also occupied by all 4 textures while loading from the disk to RAM. All those had to be loaded and ultimately took both bandwidth from I/O and RAM space for no reason. By using sampler feedback in combination with their texture filter, you keep a very low quality texture in RAM, and when the order comes to actually render (rather than an order to only load) the higher quality texture, you immediately stream it from the SSD into RAM for rendering. So only C and F would ever need to be transferred from SSD. So A and D would not take bandwidth from the SSD, nor would they take RAM space before they are actually required on-screen, that would have been taken if you merely used PRT.
Click to expand...

Dont you think the UE5 demo was doing the same thing, so you think all those 8K movie assets and CGI was in RAM then went on screen ? Really ?

No its not different, its to be expected.
 
Ascend said:
Wait wait wait. I never said it will be better than the PS5 solution. Sony's raw throughput is simply more than twice the speed of the XSX. I did say that SFS is being underestimated.

If we believe their 2x - 3x statement means nothing, sure.


I'm not sure if the PS5 will have the exact same thing, because I don't know if the PS5 has a hardware texture filter specifically designed to take advantage of sampler feedback. It's that hardware component that supposedly allows seamless streaming on the XSX without pop-in, by using sampler feedback.

If the PS5 can support it in the same way, then we are back to square one, where the ratio between the SSD speeds remains the same. The PS5 maintains the same lead advantage in SSD speeds.
If the PS5 cannot support the same feature, the SSD advantage of the PS5 diminishes. By how much, we don't know.
Click to expand...
Hahaha calm down I was talking about abouth the SF agains the 'Partially Resident Textures' which use the PS4.

2x-3x doesn't make sense if already exist similar solutions since a decade ago.

For similar I mean in the objective (reduce the footprint in memory or even have more control of it) the how could very different.
 
Bo_Hazem said:
Me neither, I'm not sure about this pop-in BS. First time to read it today here. Maybe some need to invest in LASIK to see better.
Click to expand...

You gotta give it points for originality, I think it's for the first time it was mentioned. I wonder what's going to be next? I vote for "screen tearing".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Rust to get next gen patch for X S|X and PS5, previous gen version being discontinued
0
27
cormack12 replied
Sony unveils next-gen RGB mini-LED TV Tech | "OLED Killer?"
2 3
118
7K
dave_d replied
What are your top 3 (non-cross gen) PS5/XSX games this gen?
46
2K
ToneyJ replied
Rocksteady’s Next Batman Game Being Developed Using Unreal Engine 5. Targeting Cross-Gen Launch With PS5, Series S|X, and Next-Gen Consoles!
News Rumor Hype  2
89
3K
Feel Like I'm On 42 replied
Xbox Wants Out of the Console War - (IGN Next-Gen Console Watch Podcast)
2 3 4
194
11K
Viruz replied
Top Bottom