Support NeoGAF

[Tripolygon]

Your post will likely not age well.

9 days......

I don't understand your point. What's going to happen in 9 day? Will Xbox Series X be revealed not to be RDNA 2?

 

[SportsFan581]

I don't understand your point. What's going to happen in 9 day? Will Xbox Series X be revealed not to be RDNA 2?

We will see the desktop RDNA2 cards on the 28th, and it will be confirmed that XSX does not have iF cache as is already known.

If desktop parts are running the RT primarily through the cache vs. memory, that should be a big uplift in RT performance. Will be interesting to see if Sony jumps out and confirms they are doing the same and states the amount of cache they have, or if we have to wait for the die x-rays to show us exactly what is what on the PS5 die.

 

[geordiemp]

I don't understand your point. What's going to happen in 9 day? Will Xbox Series X be revealed not to be RDNA 2?

#No XSX is RDNA2, I did not say that.

In 9 days we will understand PC parts...

• RDNA2 and all the features
• the pC part Navi 22 with 40 CU, Infinity cache and 2.4 Ghz and how that all works/
• the pC part Navi 21 Lite thats 56 CU, it seems no infinity cache and 1.9 GHz clock.

They will explain how some parts are 1.9 Ghz and some can do 2.4 Ghz and it will be clear. NO it is not RDNA2 vs RDNA1, RDAN2 is a logic, both consoles are RDNA2.

But there is a massive GHz disparity which is often waved away by silly posts as we wanted the worlds quietest console or sustained clock rubbish. Time for some FACTS.

If you cant see how that relates to understanding console architecture and the similarities, then I cant help you.

 

[Tripolygon]

#No XSX is RDNA2, I did not say that.

In 9 days we will understand PC parts...

• RDNA2 and all the features
• the pC part Navi 22 with 40 CU, Infinity cache and 2.4 Ghz and how that all works/
• the pC part Navi 21 Lite thats 56 CU, it seems no infginity cache and 1.9 GHz clock.

They will explain how some parts are 1.9 Ghz and some can do 2.4 Ghz and it will be clear.

If you cant see how that relates to understanding console architecture and the similarities, then I cant help you.

Stop speaking in code. What will be clear and why will my post not age well. What exactly in my post that is not going to age well. Here let me quote it for you. Feel free to underline or quote the part in bold that will not age well.

Say it louder so the people in the back can hear you. This is getting ridiculous. Making slight changes from a base architecture does not make it a different architecture. PS4 Pro does not stop being Polaris based even though it had feature from Vega and even bespoke feature not found in any AMD GPUs.

We are literally a few weeks away from release and this stupid unproductive argument is going on about which GPU is the true RDNA 2 GPU. They are both custom GPUs based on RDNA 2 with slight tweaks. The fact that Microsoft chooses to run their CPU and GPU at a lower clock is because they have gone with how consoles are usually made. Lock GPU and CPU clock speed. Sony can clock high because they are not locking the clock speed, it is variable likewise AMD can clock high because in PCs, race to idle and variable frequency is used.

 

[EliteClarity]

 

[geordiemp]

Stop speaking in code. What will be clear and why will my post not age well. What exactly in my post that is not going to age well. Here let me quote it for you. Feel free to underline or quote the part in bold that will not age well.

The fact that Microsoft chooses to run their CPU and GPU at a lower clock is because they have gone with how consoles are usually made. Lock GPU and CPU clock speed. Sony can clock high because they are not locking the clock speed, it is variable likewise AMD can clock high because in PCs, race to idle and variable frequency is used.

Sorry of you dont understand technical writing, if you dont why say what you did if you dont understand what your saying ?

All of the above, PC parts at 1.9 Ghz there will be a real reason Navi21 is at 1.9 Ghz, a proper engineering reason not becasue we felt like it as that is just rubbish IMO. Soon we will know exactly why.

Also your sony comment will be put into perspective with NAVI 22, 2.23 Ghz is not clocking higher, its clocking same or lower than the equivalent PC part.

9 days and we will know the truth..

 

[Zathalus]

According to, it may have less than 10GB at full 560GB.

This is inaccurate. The XSX has 16 channels for the RAM configuration, thus no splitting of RAM bandwidth across odd amounts of channels will occur.

10 Channels will be at 560GB/s and the remaining 6 will be at 336GB/s.

In use, the XSX will have 10GB of 560GB/s memory, and 3.5GB of 336 GB/s memory, as 2.5GB is reserved by the OS:

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

In terms of how the memory is allocated, games get a total of 13.5GB in total, which encompasses all 10GB of GPU optimal memory and 3.5GB of standard memory. This leaves 2.5GB of GDDR6 memory from the slower pool for the operating system and the front-end shell. From Microsoft's perspective, it is still a unified memory system, even if performance can vary. "In conversations with developers, it's typically easy for games to more than fill up their standard memory quota with CPU, audio data, stack data, and executable data, script data, and developers like such a trade-off when it gives them more potential bandwidth," says Goossen.

As for the PS5, we have no idea what its memory reservation might be, PS4 and PS4 pro was 3GB and 3.5GB respectively.

 

[Tripolygon]

We will see the desktop RDNA2 cards on the 28th, and it will be confirmed that XSX does not have iF cache as is already known.

And what is that going to change? We already know Xbox Series X does not have infinity cache.

If desktop parts are running the RT primarily through the cache vs. memory, that should be a big uplift in RT performance. Will be interesting to see if Sony jumps out and confirms they are doing the same and states the amount of cache they have, or if we have to wait for the die x-rays to show us exactly what is what on the PS5 die.

Sony has already stated they are using the same strategy as AMD for raytracing. It is not going to be much different from what Microsoft is going with Xbox Series X. Difference would be in API and software.

 

[SportsFan581]

• the pC part Navi 22 with 40 CU, Infinity cache and 2.4 Ghz and how that all works/
• the pC part Navi 21 Lite thats 56 CU, it seems no infginity cache and 1.9 GHz clock.

I still question the existence of this N21 lite chip in the desktop space as a standalone card.

The raw TF numbers between those parts are so similar 12.2TF and 13.6TF respectively. When you figure in the higher clocks on n22 and the exclusion of what is apparently a major feature on the n21 lite you would get two parts with similar performance, or possibly n21 lite performs worse while being larger and more expensive to produce. How are you pricing/marketing those? Taking two paths to get to the same result can certainly happen with semi-custom parts created for a specific partner, but why would this be introduced into AMD's own line.

 

[Nowcry]

#No XSX is RDNA2, I did not say that.

In 9 days we will understand PC parts...

• RDNA2 and all the features
• the pC part Navi 22 with 40 CU, Infinity cache and 2.4 Ghz and how that all works/
• the pC part Navi 21 Lite thats 56 CU, it seems no infginity cache and 1.9 GHz clock.

They will explain how some parts are 1.9 Ghz and some can do 2.4 Ghz and it will be clear. NO it is not RDNA2 vs RDNA1, RDAN2 is a logic, both consoles are RDNA2.

But there is a massive GHz disparity which is iften waved away by silly posts as we wanted teh worlds quietest console or sustained rubbish. Time for some FACTS.

If you cant see how that relates to understanding console architecture and the similarities, then I cant help you.

I totally agree, on the 28th we will see that they are both complete RDNA2 and then some additional characteristics that do not define RDNA2.

In Navi 21 Lite some of those features will not be there and that will explain the issue of clocks or infinity cache but a higher density of CU per mm ^ 2 and a need for greater bandwidth.

Navi 22 will have other features and that will explain the issue of clocks and infinity cache and therefore the need for less bandwidth. However, it will have less density of CU per mm ^ 2.

Everything will be solved but they will not go out to say in any way that Navi 21 is RDNA1 or anything that resembles that is a lie. The differences will be in the additional features.

Possibly some of them the result of collaboration between companies. The question is which is more efficient, that we can only know when we can compare architectures and hotchips, I hope that the 28th or later.

 

[leizzra]

Could Microsoft be announcing a New Zealand based game studio purchase.... Weta Digital for example... That's LOTR universe locked to Microsoft if so, depending on rights.

All speculation of course.

Not sure if Weta Digital are game focused tbh

Two things - Weta Digital isn't making games and they don't have the rights to it. Licensing for LotR is really tricky, because there are few parties involved (like Middle-Earth Enterprises, New Line Cinema). Plus there are many licenses (or maybe sub licenses) - like for strict period of Middle Earth timelines, single player or multiplayer, etc.

 

[Md Ray]

That's interesting. But how can they do that with PS4? Maybe they pre-do it in-engine so it's already being in a fixed status instead of being dynamically done? Thanks for the input.

Software VRS, bro. Just like software RT.

 

[Tripolygon]

Sorry of you dont understand technical writing, if you dont why say what you did if you dont understand what your saying ?

All of the above, PC parts at 1.9 Ghz there will be a real reason Navi21 is at 1.9 Ghz, a proper engineering reason not becasue we felt like it as that is just rubbish IMO. Soon we will know exactly why.

Uh what? You're still not saying anything. You're just saying because proper engineering reason.

Also your sony comment will be put into perspective with NAVI 22, 2.23 Ghz is not clocking higher, its clocking same or lower than the equivalent PC part.

Sony has already put everything in perspective in The Road to PS5.

9 days and we will know the truth..

9 days AMD will announced their GPU and nothing will change. The Xbox Series X will still be 1.825GHz 12TF RDNA 2 GPU with customizations and PS5 will still be a 2.23GHz 10.28TF RDNA 2 GPU with customizations.

 

[Zathalus]

Sorry of you dont understand technical writing, if you dont why say what you did if you dont understand what your saying ?

All of the above, PC parts at 1.9 Ghz there will be a real reason Navi21 is at 1.9 Ghz, a proper engineering reason not becasue we felt like it as that is just rubbish IMO. Soon we will know exactly why.

Also your sony comment will be put into perspective with NAVI 22, 2.23 Ghz is not clocking higher, its clocking same or lower than the equivalent PC part.

9 days and we will know the truth..

The leaks were from MacOS, thus the simplest explanation why a leaked GPU has significantly lower clock speeds then the others is that it might be bound for the next generation of iMac's, for example, the custom Radeon Pro 5700 XT that they use for current iMac's, it is only clocked at 1499MHz compared to the 1905 MHz of its regular counterpart. The lower clock speed is a result of the all-in-one form factor the iMac is bound by.

 

[LiquidRex]

Two things - Weta Digital isn't making games and they don't have the rights to it. Licensing for LotR is really tricky, because there are few parties involved (like Middle-Earth Enterprises, New Line Cinema). Plus there are many licenses (or maybe sub licenses) - like for strict period of Middle Earth timelines, single player or multiplayer, etc.

Yeah I wasn't sure... I think Weta Workshop are involved in game development, but as to what capacity I'm not sure...

But something is going on

 

[jasondefaoite]

This list has very outdated numbers mostly on part that a lot of devs haven't published recent sales figures or at all in some cases.

Sure. Of course, feel free to provide a better source. You can also try vgchartz and sum from there. Either way, GoW > Eldar Scrolls from a sales perspective.

 

[geordiemp]

I still question the existence of this N21 lite chip in the desktop space as a standalone card.

The raw TF numbers between those parts are so similar 12.2TF and 13.6TF respectively. When you figure in the higher clocks on n22 and the exclusion of what is apparently a major feature on the n21 lite you would get two parts with similar performance, or possibly n21 lite performs worse while being larger and more expensive to produce. How are you pricing/marketing those? Taking two paths to get to the same result can certainly happen with semi-custom parts created for a specific partner, but why would this be introduced into AMD's own line.

Why is N21 lite more expensive to produce, how do you know that ? The wafer might have cheaper process steps to achieve 1.9 Ghz vs the 2.4 Ghz counterparts.

SRAM takes allot of die, go look at the 32 MB Zen2 and see how big the cache is, maybe the Navi22 is bigger.

I think L2 cache will be massive for ray tracing as data is so close, but we shall see how its presented, there is more to power than TF.

Maybe the whole apple beta data was a big con, maybe none of these parts even exist.....

9 days.

 

[kyliethicc]

#No XSX is RDNA2, I did not say that.

In 9 days we will understand PC parts...

• RDNA2 and all the features
• the pC part Navi 22 with 40 CU, Infinity cache and 2.4 Ghz and how that all works/
• the pC part Navi 21 Lite thats 56 CU, it seems no infinity cache and 1.9 GHz clock.

They will explain how some parts are 1.9 Ghz and some can do 2.4 Ghz and it will be clear. NO it is not RDNA2 vs RDNA1, RDAN2 is a logic, both consoles are RDNA2.

But there is a massive GHz disparity which is often waved away by silly posts as we wanted the worlds quietest console or sustained clock rubbish. Time for some FACTS.

If you cant see how that relates to understanding console architecture and the similarities, then I cant help you.

just a heads up - very good chance Navi 22 isn't mentioned/shown by AMD until 2021. This October event may just be the big Navi 21 cards.

 

[geordiemp]

Uh what? You're still not saying anything. You're just saying because proper engineering reason.

Sony has already put everything in perspective in The Road to PS5.

9 days AMD will announced their GPU and nothing will change. The Xbox Series X will still be 1.825GHz 12TF RDNA 2 GPU with customizations and PS5 will still be a 2.23GHz 10.28TF RDNA 2 GPU with customizations.

Ok, you dont understand, thats fine. I tried and you think its funny, I cant be bothered to explain to people who dont want or have capacity to engage..

Ignored.

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

Where did you get that 12 from? The PS5 has the full 16GB at the same bandwidth.

He's comparing what is alocated as VRAM, I guess. It's kinda pointless as it varies from game to game on both consoles.

 

[SportsFan581]

This is inaccurate. The XSX has 16 channels for the RAM configuration, thus no splitting of RAM bandwidth across odd amounts of channels will occur.

10 Channels will be at 560GB/s and the remaining 6 will be at 336GB/s.

In use, the XSX will have 10GB of 560GB/s memory, and 3.5GB of 336 GB/s memory, as 2.5GB is reserved by the OS:

From what I have seen, achieving the 560GB/s number requires all 20 memory channels to be engaged on the 10 1GB chips (the lower 1GB on the 2GB modules if you will). The system could only see 10GBs with this access pattern. The system can also access the upper 1GB on those 2GB chips via 12 memory channels at 336GB/s. The system could only see 6GBs of memory with that pattern. The system could see all the memory at once by splitting the memory channels, but that would half memory bandwidth across both sections for 448GB/s on average. I would imagine that the CPU and GPU will access memory on different cycles for the most part (there are many, many cycles available per frame) and the true average bandwidth will depend on which processor hit memory more (hint, on a gaming machine don't expect it to be 50/50, the GPU should be the bandwidth whore stealing away most of the access time). But the average should be lower than 560GB/s because the CPU will be working on every frame.

On the XSS things are a bit different, because the slower interleave doesn't play into game logic, so the CPU shouldn't hit that nearly as much during game play, with game logic for the CPU running in the higher bandwidth portion of the memory.

But I have no real clue about any of this stuff, so take it with a grain of salt the size of Texas.

 

[TLZ]

Wow, awen't you the expewt. You suwe taught them!

 

[geordiemp]

just a heads up - very good chance Navi 22 isn't mentioned/shown by AMD until 2021. This October event may just be the big Navi 21 cards.

Could be, there may only show 40 and 80 CU cards with ps5 type arrangement. What does that tell you ?

If an arrangement performs well, there will be a PC part.

All information will tell us more than we know now.

 

[Tripolygon]

On the XSS things are a bit different, because the slower interleave doesn't play into game logic, so the CPU shouldn't hit that nearly as much during game play, with game logic for the CPU running in the higher bandwidth portion of the memory.

But I have no real clue about any of this stuff, so take it with a grain of salt the size of Texas.

Pretty excellent explanation.

 

[M1chl]

Yes they have 15% VAT, that's the final price. We're getting VAT for the first time even next April, and it'll be 5%. Currently, there is no VAT and it's priced at $559.

You did not have VAT? Oh boy then you are for the right, if it suddenly happens.

 

[SportsFan581]

Why is N21 lite more expensive to produce, how do you know that ? The wafer might have cheaper process steps to achieve 1.9 Ghz vs the 2.4 Ghz counterparts.

SRAM takes allot of die, go look at the 32 MB Zen2 and see how big the cache is, maybe the Navi22 is bigger.

I think L2 cache will be massive for ray tracing as data is so close, but we shall see how its presented, there is more to power than TF.

Maybe the whole apple beta data was a big con, maybe none of these parts even exist.....

9 days.

Oh it's possible that n21 lite could be cheaper to produce if it's on an older node. But again, how are you marketing that. So the 40cu part outperforms the 56cu part, but the 56cu part has more bandwidth, and maybe more power draw, possibly hotter than the dies on the newer node. What marketing soup AMD would have.

 

[Codexer]

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sorry of you dont understand technical writing, if you dont why say what you did if you dont understand what your saying ?

All of the above, PC parts at 1.9 Ghz there will be a real reason Navi21 is at 1.9 Ghz, a proper engineering reason not becasue we felt like it as that is just rubbish IMO. Soon we will know exactly why.

Also your sony comment will be put into perspective with NAVI 22, 2.23 Ghz is not clocking higher, its clocking same or lower than the equivalent PC part.

9 days and we will know the truth..

Cerny also clearly called out race to idle (used as a way to save power not to increase performance) to distinguish their solutions from that too IIRC.

 

[geordiemp]

Oh it's possible that n21 lite could be cheaper to produce if it's on an older node. But again, how are you marketing that. So the 40cu part outperforms the 56cu part, but the 56cu part has more bandwidth, and maybe more power draw, possibly hotter than the dies on the newer node. What marketing soup AMD would have.

PC parts have many uses, some might excel at games, some at ray tracing, some at gaming for 1440p, some at 4k, some for server aplications or ML, 9 days we will find out what the specs are and how AMD market them and what they are good at.

 

[Physiognomonics]

This is inaccurate. The XSX has 16 channels for the RAM configuration, thus no splitting of RAM bandwidth across odd amounts of channels will occur.

10 Channels will be at 560GB/s and the remaining 6 will be at 336GB/s.

In use, the XSX will have 10GB of 560GB/s memory, and 3.5GB of 336 GB/s memory, as 2.5GB is reserved by the OS:

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

As for the PS5, we have no idea what its memory reservation might be, PS4 and PS4 pro was 3GB and 3.5GB respectively.

The spin of words won't matter. You won't be able to use those 2 parts (10channels or 6 channels) simultaneously.

 

[Tripolygon]

Cerny also clearly called out race to idle (used as a way to save power not to increase performance) to distinguish their solutions from that too IIRC.

Yes if you read my post I distinctly said race to idle is used in PCs.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

You did not have VAT? Oh boy then you are for the right, if it suddenly happens.

So far they are going for 5%. Let's hope they keep it that way, lol.

 

[KingT731]

Sure. Of course, feel free to provide a better source. You can also try vgchartz and sum from there. Either way, GoW > Eldar Scrolls from a sales perspective.

I'm not doubting that God of War outsold the Skyrim Special edition. I'm just giving you some info. It's the same on the PS3 game sales list on Wikipedia where Skyrim isn't anywhere on the list (on the 360 list it is at 13M) and the lowest game listed is MotorStorm: Pacific Rift at 1M flat.

 

[M1chl]

So far they are going for 5%. Let's hope they keep it that way, lol.

Let's just say we have here jump from 19% to 22% and they were riots here : D

 

[Tripolygon]

The spin of words won't matter. You won't be able to use those 2 parts (10channels or 6 channels) simultaneously.

It is one unified 16 channel. If you stripe across all 10 chips, you get the full bandwidth once you cross 10GB is when the bandwidth drops.

 

[kyliethicc]

Could be, there may only show 40 and 80 CU cards with ps5 type arrangement. What does that tell you ?

If an arrangement performs well, there will be a PC part.

All information will tell us more than we know now.

Sure, I just meant the rumor is that we won't see the Navi 22 40 CU 6700 XT card until next year. It'd be cool if AMD showed all their new GPUs this month, but it might not happen. Staggered releases more likely.

 

[kyliethicc]

This is inaccurate. The XSX has 16 channels for the RAM configuration, thus no splitting of RAM bandwidth across odd amounts of channels will occur.

10 Channels will be at 560GB/s and the remaining 6 will be at 336GB/s.

In use, the XSX will have 10GB of 560GB/s memory, and 3.5GB of 336 GB/s memory, as 2.5GB is reserved by the OS:

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

As for the PS5, we have no idea what its memory reservation might be, PS4 and PS4 pro was 3GB and 3.5GB respectively.

That shows 20 channels, each is 16 bit. Thats why it says 20 x16. The Xbox SX has a 320 bit memory interface. 16 bit x20 = 320 bit.

There are 10 RAM chips each using 2 of the 20 channels. But 6 of the 10 chips are 2 GB each, while the other 4 chips are 1 GB each. Therefore the memory bandwidth is split due to the chips not being interleaved evenly.

 

[ethomaz]

It will probably has profile data for each game... so as new games are made the new profiles needs to be updated via firmware.

That means the firmware updates will be more constant? Probably... depends how many games will need a different profile instead the default.

 

[VCL]

 

[Dibils2k]

EDIT: oh, i think thats because PS4 Pro targets 1800p and One X targets 4k... move on, nothing to see here

Spoiler

its only fitting its BF again with first comparison

 

[Nowcry]

It is one unified 16 channel. If you stripe across all 10 chips, you get the full bandwidth once you cross 10GB is when the bandwidth drops.

I believe that few AAA games do not use the fast 10 GB for graphics, which will leave the CPU RAM of the system + RAM of the game at 6Gb which will require continuous accesses and therefore a drop in the average bandwidth.

From what I have read of some leaks, normally the accesses to the system + game are usually 56 GB / s on average. However, SX would be penalized twice by the blocking of the channels, actually subtracting 112 GB / s.

Leaving an average of 448 GB / s. That matches the above.

PS5 would get 448 GB / s -56 GB / s with 392 GB / s left. However I would have 36 CU to feed versus 52CU and only 9 CU per ShaderArray instead of 16/14 CU per Shader Array.

The SX architecture is unnecessarily complex, they should have put 20 GB and 6 Shaders array even if it came out at 599 I think it would have been a very well focused console.

Leaving an average of 448 GB / s. That matches the above.

 

[IntentionalPun]

It's a BC game that nobody has seen running on PS5...

 

[anaphase]

Shit's about to get real toxic round these parts.

Spoiler

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

Read the article, they are supposing it will run on the Pro profile. It's not that the hardware can't run it at 4K, the game is capped.

 

[Nowcry]

In a new video shared by JackFrags on YouTube, he confirmed that the game runs at native 4K and 60 FPS on the Xbox Series X. This is despite a patch that will make it enhanced for the Xbox Series X.

This brings us to the PS5 version, which will run through backward compatibility. According to the analysis done by Digital Foundry, the game runs at a dynamic resolution on the PS4 Pro and Xbox Series X. It achieves a peak of 4K on the Xbox One X and 1800p on the PS4 Pro. Based on this analysis, we can put the upper limit of the resolution for PS5 at 1800p.

They are talking about BC and above they have taken the 1800p thinking that it will have the same performance as in PS4 pro. It's a click Bait.

 

[LucasBR]

Click bait at its finest.

 

[dimaveshkin]

What a clickbait...

 

[thurnishaleygw]

Here for the replies of people that are not going to read the article...

 

[xHunter]

Well thats a clickbait:

This brings us to the PS5 version, which will run through backward compatibility. According to the analysis done by Digital Foundry, the game runs at a dynamic resolution on the PS4 Pro and Xbox Series X. It achieves a peak of 4K on the Xbox One X and 1800p on the PS4 Pro. Based on this analysis, we can put the upper limit of the resolution for PS5 at 1800p.

 

[tuco11]

no matter what it runs at cant change the fact that BFV is a fn turd.