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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)

F

FlutterPuffs

Member
LukasTaves said:
Most likely outsorcing has nothing to do with it, but rather it's a matter of budget and how much content you have to do.

Even if both games had the same budgets (and they do not) Forza would have less allocated to each car because it has so much more cars to model.
Click to expand...

What you just said does mean that outsourcing has a lot to do with it.

Not to mention the amount of data Polyphony artists can work with, considering how they work closely with car companies.
 
T

theWB27

Member
FlutterPuffs said:
What you just said does mean that outsourcing has a lot to do with it.

Not to mention the amount of data Polyphony artists can work with, considering how they work closely with car companies.
Click to expand...

I can't take how PD seemingly does everything a step above. I don't imagine they get any more data than turn10.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Outsourcing is indeed related with overall quality.

Unless you pay more than it will cost to you in-house... outsourcing will give you lower quality.

theWB27 said:
I can't take how PD seemingly does everything a step above. I don't imagine they get any more data than turn10.
Click to expand...
PD has contract to access some manufacture actual and future projects... the GT vision is based in these deals.

I don’t believe Turn 10 has anything close to that with manufactures.
 
D

derFeef

Member
ethomaz said:
Outsourcing is indeed related with overall quality.

Unless you pay more than it will cost to you in-house... outsourcing will give you lower quality.
Click to expand...

That's a terrible generalization, especially when specialist companies like Rabcat exist.
Outsourcing can also elevate the overall quality of the product.
 
B

Bits N Pieces

Member
KORNdoggy said:
they outsource their modelling, a requirement to maintain their short release schedule. how much can they love cars when they're not even building them themselves? the fact is when you get someone else to do your work you lose your ability to maintain any semblance of consistency. quality control goes out the window. the forza interior model in that example looks like something you'd buy off turbosquid in the mid price category...it's...adequate, i'd maybe use it in a scene where it wasn't the main focus of an image, but it hardly meets the standards i would associate with this current gen. i mean, it's all well and good having native 4k resolutions, but when your cars look faceted as hell with shoddy model work and materials i'm not sure it's a combination that's particularly flattering. you should be attempting to hide that stuff not make it more obvious.

i honestly think forza motorsport needs longer dev cycles so they can improve on stuff like this. i get the impression they don't have the time to craft things as well as they should be.
Click to expand...


There are bad posts in this thread and then you have this. Holy shit, lol.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
derFeef said:
That's a terrible generalization, especially when specialist companies like Rabcat exist.
Outsourcing can also elevate the overall quality of the product.
Click to expand...
Companies outsource because it is cheaper... not for better quality... that is not only about gaming development outsourcing.

To have better quality you need to pay more than in-house... unless you are really rushing to release something (or doesn’t have the actual in-house expertise) and you are ok with paying way more to get better quality... I don’t see that being the Turn 10 case.

But that is a discussion for another thread... what F7 delivered is all attributed to Turn 10... I don’t think outsourcing talk has a place here or it needs to be taken in consideration.
 
D

derFeef

Member
ethomaz said:
Companies outsource because it is cheaper... not for better quality... that is not only about gaming development outsourcing.

To have better quality you need to pay more than in-house... unless you are really rushing to release something (or doesn't have the actual in-house expertise) and you are ok with paying way more to get better quality... I don't see that being the Turn 10 case.
Click to expand...

Also a generalization. I am pretty shocked about the armchair knowledge about game developing (and company management) that is getting thrown around here. Honestly not shocked mostly.
 
F

FlutterPuffs

Member
theWB27 said:
I can't take how PD seemingly does everything a step above. I don't imagine they get any more data than turn10.
Click to expand...

Who is comparing PD with Turn 10? I'm comparing them with outsourcing companies. Yes, Turn 10 can share information with them, but remember that automotive companies can be very secretive with their data.
 
F

FlutterPuffs

Member
On what I just said, even if it's proven that Forza 7's cars have less detail than GT Sports, I much prefer Turn 10's development pipeline (and usage of outsourcing).

I'm liking how GT Sports is turning out, but I'm not sure if 6 freaking months to model 1 car is worth it, no matter how accurate it is.
 
U

uncledonnie

Banned
ethomaz said:
Companies outsource because it is cheaper... not for better quality... that is not only about gaming development outsourcing.

To have better quality you need to pay more than in-house... unless you are really rushing to release something (or doesn't have the actual in-house expertise) and you are ok with paying way more to get better quality... I don't see that being the Turn 10 case.
Click to expand...

This is a pretty ignorant generalization. Companies often outsource because they do not want to employ the full time in house employees year round needed to perform that work. This is especially true for game studios that ramp up for releases. It's probably even more true for Microsoft whose universal benefits are likely well above the norm (that's been established numerous times on GAF as an issue in particular for MS game studios). Employing full time staff means a lot of additional costs around benefits, office space, HR, etc.

Outsourcing does not in and of itself mean that they are getting the modelling work done for any cheaper and in fact looking at only the hourly cost of the modeling work, it's entirely possible it costs more than it would in house -- it's just the cost of maintaining a full time staff to do it outweighs that. To maintain the Forza 2 year dev cycle without outsourcing Turn 10 would have to maintain a far larger staff year round and that becomes pretty damn expensive. So yes it is likely cheaper overall but you have no idea what the quality of work may be compared to in-house without knowing what level of in house staff would be employed, what companies are outsourced to, etc. It's entirely possible they are getting higher quality work especially on their shorter dev cycle.

Of course, Polyphony gets around all this by having a much longer dev cycle and far fewer cars. It's not rocket science.
 
T

theWB27

Member
FlutterPuffs said:
Who is comparing PD with Turn 10? I'm comparing them with outsourcing companies. Yes, Turn 10 can share information with them, but remember that automotive companies can be very secretive with their data.
Click to expand...

The picture that brought up the outsourcing debate, as if y'all can tell what assets are and aren't outsourced, compared Forza and GT. PD has proven that getting a higher car count in their cars results either less cars as is happening now or getting last gen assets as what happened on PS3.

ethomaz said:
Outsourcing is indeed related with overall quality.

Unless you pay more than it will cost to you in-house... outsourcing will give you lower quality.


PD has contract to access some manufacture actual and future projects... the GT vision is based in these deals.

I don't believe Turn 10 has anything close to that with manufactures.
Click to expand...

Why? How can a developer be the first to debut something like a brand new Porsche that's never been seen anywhere else not have close relationships with these manufacturers? A decade of making these cars and one thinks Turn10's access is less? Why? Because of the way the games are marketed?
 
L

LukasTaves

Member
FlutterPuffs said:
What you just said does mean that outsourcing has a lot to do with it.

Not to mention the amount of data Polyphony artists can work with, considering how they work closely with car companies.
Click to expand...
No, I mean ultimately the quality of the assets are determined by the budget, whether they are outsourced or not.

I would argue that at the same budget Turn10 would never be able to achieve the model quality and sheer number of cars they already have, had they didn't outsourced.
 
P

Psycho_Mantis

Banned
PritheeBeCareful said:
Yup, look what it did to Horizon Zero Dawn. Game is rough as fuck thanks to asset outsourcing...
Click to expand...

Notice the word can....

LukasTaves said:
Most likely outsorcing has nothing to do with it, but rather it's a matter of budget and how much content you have to do.

Even if both games had the same budgets (and they do not) Forza would have less allocated to each car because it has so much more cars to model.
Click to expand...

So outsourcing has nothing to do with it, but outsourcing has everything to do with it lol
Why do you think models are outsourced: for quick and cheap CAD models.

Your second paragraph also makes little sense. The industry standard to around 6 months to model one car per person. Forza has many cars as they've been modelling ever since 2011, and outsourcing their modelling to have total employee count of 400.

More time, and more people via outsourcing means more models. The reason its cheaper is because the employee wage is usually cheaper when outsourced. The quality however has suffered as a result and its evident.

Synth said:
Over the course of this thread, I've replied with substance to posts that warrant it (and to be fair, some that don't). Your post, and the one it was quoting didn't warrant any more than it received.
Click to expand...

So a total non-response......why even bother replying.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
uncledonnie said:
This is a pretty ignorant generalization. Companies often outsource because they do not want to employ the full time in house employees year round needed to perform that work. This is especially true for game studios that ramp up for releases. It's probably even more true for Microsoft whose universal benefits are likely well above the norm (that's been established numerous times on GAF as an issue in particular for MS game studios). Employing full time staff means a lot of additional costs around benefits, office space, HR, etc.

Outsourcing does not in and of itself mean that they are getting the modelling work done for any cheaper and in fact looking at only the hourly cost of the modeling work, it's entirely possible it costs more than it would in house -- it's just the cost of maintaining a full time staff to do it outweighs that. To maintain the Forza 2 year dev cycle without outsourcing Turn 10 would have to maintain a far larger staff year round and that becomes pretty damn expensive. So yes it is likely cheaper overall but you have no idea what the quality of work may be compared to in-house without knowing what level of in house staff would be employed, what companies are outsourced to, etc. It's entirely possible they are getting higher quality work especially on their shorter dev cycle.

Of course, Polyphony gets around all this by having a much longer dev cycle and far fewer cars. It's not rocket science.
Click to expand...
The bolded at the end it is because it is cheaper.

Why companies started the homeoffice movement? It is cheaper.
Why companies started the outsourcing? It is cheaper.

The cost to maintain a employee full-time in house is big... so big that companies had to find better options (cheaper) and that is why homeoffice and outsourcing to become a thing wide used by companies.

Money move companies.

Why it is cheaper to Turn 10 outsource?

- They don't need physical employees.
- They don't need physical space and machines for these employees.
- They don't need to pay all the beneficies to employee these companies usually does.
- They don't need to hold the employee doing nothing after the work is done.
- They don't need to pay the rights to employee when fired him.
- They contract cheaper countries 3rd outsourcing that is way way cheaper.

What they do?

- Pay for the model to be made to a 3rd company.

It is cheaper... that is the goal of outsourcing.

Of course this is another talk for another thread.

Edit - 2 seconds on google the first result: http://jobs.lovetoknow.com/Pros_and_Cons_of_Outsourcing (everything I said is there lol)
 
M

MimiMe

Member
World wide outsourcing:
- no need to employ specialists
- get specialists for a specific time period - aka project - and get rid of them
- smack the specialists if they don't meet quality expectations

Neogaf outsourcing:
- you don't love your assets
- you'll get crap as specialised companies can't be as good as your own employees

I'd love to go btt and post some iRacing VR screens - as I have finaly build a new PC - but of course it just looks like crap compared to desktop screens o_O
 
S

Synth

Member
Psycho_Mantis said:
So a total non-response......why even bother replying.
Click to expand...

The same reason you've made the last couple of responses in the fashion you did. It states my opinion, however brief. Not everything needs a long-ass thelastword-esque post when a simple "that's stupid" is what it boils down to.
 
MilkyJoe

MilkyJoe

Member
MimiMe said:
World wide outsourcing:
- no need to employ specialists
- get specialists for a specific time period - aka project - and get rid of them
- smack the specialists if they don't meet quality expectations

Neogaf outsourcing:
- you don't love your assets
- you'll get crap as specialised companies can't be as good as your own employees

I'd love to go btt and post some iRacing VR screens - as I have finaly build a new PC - but of course it just looks like crap compared to desktop screens o_O
Click to expand...


tenor.gif
 
S

Space_nut

Member
I think I notice there is only one cubemap for all cars in gts, player's car, all AI cars show the same cubemap as the player's car, when you go under signs or a tunnel, cars outside show the same reflections :/

I want to see the dynamic reflections Xbox One X is adding to FM7
 
F

FlutterPuffs

Member
LukasTaves said:
No, I mean ultimately the quality of the assets are determined by the budget, whether they are outsourced or not.

I would argue that at the same budget Turn10 would never be able to achieve the model quality and sheer number of cars they already have, had they didn't outsourced.
Click to expand...

No... it's not that simple.

1.JPG


and even so Polyphony has been consistent in putting out some of the best car models for years. We can assume that Turn 10 can, as you put it, but Polyphony has proven itself as the best.
 
G

Gestault

Member
TheAdmiester said:
Also I can totally see polygonal edges on the tires anyway
Click to expand...

Still, those are nice lookin' tyres, lol.

I've just been doing the tutorial challenge events so far. Do the tyre walls react to impacts? Actually, in either Project Cars 2 or GTS? I can check later in the latter, but I hadn't thought to ask.
 
T

theWB27

Member
Raced one more race in GT in a rally car and I still don't care for PD's sense of speed. The speed I see in the replays doesn't convey itself the same way while driving. The game feels static too. I should add I race mainly in cockpit.
 
S

Space_nut

Member
Gestault said:
Still, those are nice lookin' tyres, lol.

I've just been doing the tutorial challenge events so far. Do the tyre walls react to impacts? Actually, in either Project Cars 2 or GTS? I can check later in the latter, but I hadn't thought to ask.
Click to expand...

Tires do react to impacts for FM7 :) I've ran into it and some tires fell out into the track
 
I

Inf3cted_b3ast

Member
theWB27 said:
Raced one more race in GT in a rally car and I still don't care for PD's sense of speed. The speed I see in the replays doesn't convey itself the same way while driving. The game feels static too. I should add I race mainly in cockpit.
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree with this. The car just doesn't feel like it's moving as fast as the gauges say.
 
C

c0de

Member
thelastword said:
Ha, perfectly round tires in the tire wall, such a rare thing these days ;)
Click to expand...

For some definitions of "perfectly round".

ethomaz said:
Looks better on Pro pics posted... I didn’t see it myself.
Click to expand...

The majority will play on amateur which is also the main version. And that doesn't look too hot at times, like also your picture has shown us.

psn said:
We have more than enough gameplay screens.

Or are we desperately searching for screens that show it in a bad light?
Click to expand...

Wait, "desperately searching for screens that show [insert game name here] in a bad light" is a thing in this thread? Now I've heard it all.
Also, actual gameplay shots are rare in comparison to scape and replay.

Psycho_Mantis said:
I'm afraid so.
Click to expand...

Hahaha, as if.
 
cyen

cyen

Member
Just finished playing the beta at a friends house:

- Menu presentation is top notch, very imersive and "sport like"
- Played it on a Pro at 1080P quality mode and i was a little disapointed after seeing all those amazing gifs, blocky shadows breaks the imersions on dashboard cam and there is visible aliasing on cars. The tracks are very good but nothing mindblowing.
Reflections are low res.
- Replays are another story, amazing, it seems almost that im seeing a real race on tv with all the focus on cars instead of random camera track.
- Performance is very good, it seemed locked 60fps on 1080P quality mode
- Very good FB on TR300 and very good handling model
- Lack of sense of speed is a bit disapointing

Content at launch seems a little barren, of those 180 cars it seems they are duplicates since a road car has a race model so its basically the same car, so we get circa 90 unique car models (not 100% on this, correct me if im wrong).
 
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