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Next Generation article on the unreleased 'Saturn 2'

I hope these images work....

From Next Generation November 1995:

4fBFl.jpg


Z6hbZ.jpg


vQK0g.jpg


'Saturn 2' could've been a new console instead of Saturn or a quick replacement (not in place of Dreamcast, it's not of that class) or as a Saturn upgrade cart for Model 2 ports and downscaled Model 3 conversions.
 
The Mega CD / Sega CD should've been the ONLY upgrade for the Genesis, the 32X should've never existed. Sega could've moved on from the Genesis Sega CD to a much more powerful Saturn. It would've outclassed 3DFX on PC and the 3DO M2.

You're right, way too many mistakes by Sega.
 
More on the Real3D/100 (not to be confused with the low-end i740 or the highend Real3D/Pro-1000s used in Model 3.


CfcM0.jpg


TYRpc.jpg




The Real3D/100 chipset could've been reduced into a single chip, much like PS1's CPU+GTE or better yet, the 3DO M2's Bulldog ASIC. If Lockheed Martin had desired to enter the consumer market in a big way (nevermind the i740), They would've been a force to be respected.


The poster 'Nobody's Perfect" aka Deadmeat would've gone apeshit over this. He actually did on usenet.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
It never went into actual development AFAIK. Sega and Lockheed Martin were in talks about a home console, at several points in time, as far back as 1994 before the Saturn launched in Japan.

Yeah, I imagine the project eventually metamorphosed into the Dreamcast.
 
You all should read this:


The Dreamcast Story

''A do-or-die machine which will decide whether Sega stays in the
hardware biz''

Dreamcast is a system born out of Sega's darkest hour, a do-or-die
machine which will decide whether the company stays in the hardware
business. Its precursor, the 32bit Sega Saturn, had been widely
expected to conquer the world with Nintendo's own second next
generation system heavily delayed -- due to the collapse of an
alliance with Sony -- and neither Atari nor 3DO seriously threatening
mass market success.
All that changed with the November '93 announcement of the Sony
PlayStation, a system which would heavily defeat Sega's system and
become a considerable influence on how Sega designed Dreamcast.
Although there had been rumours of Sony producing a console, what came
as a heavy shock to Sega was the technical superiority of the
PlayStation. While the Saturn had been designed as perhaps the
ultimate 2D arcade machine, albeit with a substantial 3D capability,
PlayStation was totally committed to polygons.

Sega boss Hayao Nakayama angrily berated Sega's engineers for their
failings, but it was too late to totally redesign the system if the
1994 launch was too proceed. Instead, Sega added yet another processor
to an already over-complicated design. In terms of raw power, the new
Saturn was much more of a match for PlayStation, but it would never be
an easy machine to program for. The twin CPU design in particular
demanded highly specialised machine code rather than the C most
Japanese developers prefered: barely a year after Saturn's launch a
key Sega manager admitted only one in a hundred programmers would have
the skill to use the machine's full potential.

Ironically, the Saturn's Japanese launch would be Sega's best ever
performance in its home territory. Even a flawed version of Virtua
Fighting was enough to transform the company's traditional weakness in
its home territory. Overseas, however, it was to be a different
matter. Scepticism about the prospects of a CD-ROM machine succeeding
in the cost-sensitive US market meant Saturn was originally partnered
with a low-cost, cart-based system codenamed Jupiter -- principally
due to American scepticism that a CD-ROM machine could be
competitively priced. When Saturn was upgraded, Jupiter got axed in
favour of Mars, an upgrade for Sega's 16bit Mega Drive which was
supposed to protect the company's hugely lucrative US market. In fact,
32X was an unmitigated disaster, drawing vital developer support away
from Saturn and destroying the company's reputation among gamers who
found themselves with an add-on with barely a handful of games.

The Saturn debacle would cost the jobs of Sega's American and Japanese
bosses, beside reducing its US empire to a ruin running up losses of
$167 million in 1997. For any replacement machine the lessons were
clear: a single format, complete user-friendliness for developers and
a new brand -- so low had sunk the once mighty Sega name.


As soon as any console is launched, work is usually underway on a
replacement but the Saturn's troubles gave this process an unusual
urgency for Sega. By 1995, rumours surfaced that US defence
contractors Lockheed Martin Corp. were already deep into the
development of a replacement, possibly even with a view to releasing
it as a Saturn upgrade. There were even claims that during Saturn's
pre-launch panic a group of managers argued the machine should simply
be scrapped in favour of an all-new LMC design.


Sega originally entered into partnership with LMC to solve problems
with its Model 2 coin-op board, however by 1995 the relationship had
soured somewhat with the Model 3 board suffering massive delays.
Around the same time, 3DO began shopping around its 64bit M2 system.
According to informed sources, Sega's Japanese bankers had brokered an
unwritten deal whereby Matsushita would manufacture M2 units, while
Sega would concentrate on the software. M2 devkits were supplied to
Sega in early 1996, with initial work reputedly concentrating on a
Virtua Fighter 3 conversion for M2's launch.

Sega's M2 project soon fell apart however. 3DO's Trip Hawkins blamed
corporate ‘egos' for the collapse, while Sega insisted its engineers
were unconvinced M2 was the breakthrough technology they needed.
Instead, the company was increasingly preoccupied by the PC market --
unlike Nintendo, it was fully prepared to convert its games onto the
format and in mid-1995 it had entered into a partnership with PC
graphics card manufacturer nVidia. Under the terms of the deal, Sega
would supply ports of key Saturn titles exclusively for the nVidia PC
graphics card. At the time, pundits wondered if Sega might be
switching from Saturn to nVidia as its principal platform.

By 1996, this speculation was ebbing away as two clear frontrunners
emerged in the PC graphics market: VideoLogic's PowerVR and 3Dfx's
Voodoo chipsets. Sega approached both companies to be partners in two
parallel Saturn 2 projects, each of which having minimal if any
knowledge of the other. The 3Dfx-Sega of America project was codenamed
Black Belt, while the VideoLogic-Sega of Japan system was known as
Dural. Although console development is usually shrouded in total
secrecy, Saturn 2's development coincided with the rise of the
Internet and Black Belt soon became a popular topic of gossip. For a
time, many presumed Black Belt was the only new Sega system.

All this changed on July 22nd, 1997, when 3Dfx was informed them Black
Belt was cancelled. It was a shattering blow -- "Our contract with
Sega was considered to be gospel right up until we received the call,"
admitted marketing manager Chris Kramer. Two months later, 3Dfx issued
a lawsuit against Sega while blaming VideoLogic's Japanese backers,
NEC, for bringing influence to bear on a decision which would
otherwise have gone to 3Dfx. An initial burst of publicity soon gave
way to highly confidential discussions which settled the lawsuit away
from the public eye in August 1998.

For outsiders, 3Dfx had always been the favoured partner due to their
leadership in the PC market, moreover Sega let it be known the
decision to cancel wasn't due to either performance or cost reasons.
What may have been a factor is 3Dfx's very strength made it a
difficult partner for Sega, VideoLogic's second-place status obviously
made it the hungrier partner. Moreover, whereas 3Dfx see themselves as
creating a new gaming platform around their Voodoo hardware and Glide
software, VideoLogic were much more eager to use Microsoft's Direct3D
API.

Whatever the reasoning behind the decision, the PowerVR decision
further dampened excitement about a machine soon to be redubbed
Katana. In January '98, UK trade newspaper CTW ran a savage onslaught
upon the new format: "When one looks at a format owner that actually
struggles to garner interest in its latest hardware announcements, you
know it''s in trouble. From Black Belt to Dural and Katana,
journalists have leapt into headline mode, but the level of
disinterest elsewhere is palpable." Commenting upon the latest
redundancies in America and Britain, Dinsey wondered whether the
company was "giving up and trying to re-invent itself as a PC
publisher."

In May, Sega gave its response with the official announcement of its
new system, its specifications and that controversial name: Dreamcast.
The marketing campaign began with the announcement of the marketing
campaign and its $100 million budget for each territory: America,
Europe and Japan. Sega boss Shoichiro Irimajiri put the cost of
hardware development at $50-80 million, software development at
$150-200 million, which with marketing added up to half a billion
dollars.

The PR statements were suitably bullish: "Dreamcast is Sega's bridge
to world-wide market leadership for the 21st century" commented Sega
US VP Bernie Stolar. "I am confident that Dreamcast will become a de
facto standard for digital entertainment" claimed Sega chairman Isso
Okawa. However, it was at E3 itself that the tide really began to turn
for Sega with bravura software demos finally earning the machine
journalists' respect. Post E3 reports were full of adoration , as
impressed by the restoration of Sega's old self-confidence as the raw
processing power on show. Dreamcast's launch date was set as November
20th and this time all Sony can threaten is the announcement of new
hardware -- 1998 is Dreamcast's alone.

From E3 onwards, Sega orchestrated a careful drumbeat of
announcements, including the launch of the VMS unit on July 11th to
tie-in with the Godzilla movie and a much hyped August 22nd PR event
for Sega's old mascot in Sonic Adventure. In September, Sega ran an ad
showing MD Eiichi Yukawa being abused by members of the public who
preferred Sony -- and promising all would change with Dreamcast's
arrival. And so it is, everything now rests with the machine and its
software.
 

ajim

Member
As do I.

I often think "what could have been"

Me too. Would love to have seen the progression of the VMU (probably would have been a WiiU like tablet controller much before Nintendo), some first party love from SEGA, and SEGA Net evolving into something much like Xbox Live.
 
Any techies want to give an assessment of the Real3D/100 card, and the possibility that it could've been shrunk into a single chip for consumer/console/PC/gaming use?
 
Me too. Would love to have seen the progression of the VMU (probably would have been a WiiU like tablet controller much before Nintendo), some first party love from SEGA, and SEGA Net evolving into something much like Xbox Live.

The VMU was a truly brilliant idea. Poorly executed in some ways, but the idea still impresses me after all this time.
 

Lothar

Banned
ajim said:
I wish SEGA was still around (in the console business).

I wish more that Next Generation was still around. That was the last decent gaming mag worth reading.

It was so cool that they told the truth about all 3 systems. You see here, they're already telling you that Sega fucked up and Saturn is not the way to go before the system even released.

Before the N64 came out, at the time that no one was saying anything bad about it, I remember them doing this amazing article on "20 reasons why N64 may not be all it's cracked up to be" or something like that. As a N64 owner who for a long time was bored out of his mind with the lack of available games, I can attest to most of those reasons turning out to be very valid.
 

RoyalFool

Banned
Oh man, I love finding/reading old gaming magazines. In a way I regret how the internet has taken away that feeling of discovering a new issue in the newsagents and getting 30 days of news all at once. But these old SEGA stories are always the hardest to read, anybody who had the fortune of owning a Dreamcast during it's short but magnificent lifespan will understand why.

I never knew that SEGA were working on M2 launch titles, I can imagine the M2 collectors getting wet just thinking that they might be a VF prototype somewhere..
 
It never went into actual development AFAIK. Sega and Lockheed Martin were in talks about a home console, at several points in time, as far back as 1994 before the Saturn launched in Japan.

Wasn't Lockheed Martin the option Sega america wanted for the Saturn? I remember reading that Sega Japan went with their design because of pride and the option Sega America was going for was much better.
 
Wasn't Lockheed Martin the option Sega america wanted for the Saturn? I remember reading that Sega Japan went with their design because of pride and the option Sega America was going for was much better.

No, SGI Project Reality chipset was the option SoA wanted, and it was rejected because the framerate was too low.

It would've been far better than the Saturn as it was, but not as good as 3DO M2 or Lockheed Martin Real3D.
 

Satchel

Banned
As a Sega fanboy, that whole Saturn/Dreamcast saga depresses me greatly.

I wish Sega and Microsoft could have done the deal to have the original Xbox playing Dreamcadt games.
 
I firmly believe that Lockheed Martin would've been the best choice for both the Saturn and the Dreamcast.


aJqcE.jpg


With images like this (Real3D/100), Saturn would've been a BEAST in 3D polygonal graphics.

Then the Dreamcast could contain a custom next-generation Real3D GPU with better, more stable performance than the Xbox.
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
I wish SEGA was still around (in the console business).
Eh, not so much here. Consoles are nothing more than machines. SEGA is my favorite publisher - the games count. I do wish they'd come out with smaller projects from time to time (other than remakes like Sonic CD).

The lighting on the small shots in page 17 look pretty incredible.
 
I mean, why would Next Generation print a three page article on Sega and Lockheed, including Saturn 2, if there wasn't *some* truth to it. It's not like was a little rumor from EGM's Quartermann.

Oh speaking of which....It was in there:

oz6WR.jpg


I know that's too blurry, so:

In other Sega news, Yu Suzuki sand and the white shirts at AM2 are currently knee deep into the development of VF3 for the Saturn, which will be released in Japan around October. The game (a CD) is designed to run in conjection with a 3-D cartridge upgrade that plugs into the port on top of the Saturn...can you say 64X? The Lockheed Martin Corportation (the company that designed Sega's Model-3 arcade architecture) is currently working on the 64-bit cart, which is based on the Real 3D chipsetm LMC's upcoming 3-D accelerator for the PC. The entire package is targeted to retail for 9800 yen in Japan (about $90 U.S.) with 6000 yen of that for the CD and about 3500-4000 yen toward the cart. Our Q-spies report that VF3 will be but just a small taste of Sega's 64-Bit console technology. Sega has also commissioned LMC to design a killer 64-Bit game system code named Pluto. The new system, due out in early 1998, is said to offer 3-D performance that could rival (if not surpass) the Model-3 arcade board. Look for Sega to make an official announcement of the new console (along with the first look at VF3) at the upcoming Tokyo Toy Show in June.



Finally, I was crushed when I read this on Next Generation Online:

Black Belt from a Lockheed Perspective
Two former Lockheed Martin employees, N-Space's Erick Dyke and Dan O'Leary voice their views on Sega's move to use 3Dfx instead of a Lockheed Martin solution.
April 29, 1997


With experience in developing for Model 2 (Desert Tank) and having helped develop the Model 3 hardware while at Lockheed Martin, Erick Dyke and Dan O'Leary have indicated that it would have been difficult for Sega to make a better decision in terms of a graphics subsystem.

"3Dfx has proven itself. Just look downstairs (at CGDC). Nearly every major demo at every booth is running off of some form of the Voodoo graphics chipset," said O'Leary. While consumers have yet to establish a standard in 3D acceleration, most of the developers projects and demos were using Voodoo as their target platform.

Commenting upon the strengths of the proposed Black Belt Dyke said: "Not only is Sega getting the hottest chipset around, but with Microsoft in its corner it will be getting useful libraries; something the Saturn desperately lacked."

The major question facing the duo was why did Sega neglect its long-term hardware partner Lockheed Martin when designing the hardware? O'Leary stepped up to the plate answering: "Sega has to find the cheapest but most powerful hardware it can. Lockheed Martin is still trying to figure out how it fits into the consumer space seeing as it has traditionally worked in the simulation arena. 3Dfx on the other hand was created from the ground up to be a consumer level product. It isn't at all surprising that Sega has gone this route."

When comparing Lockheed's Model 2 and Model 3 hardware to the proposed Black Belt specification, both O'Leary and Dyke felt that that Black Belt would be far more similar to developing for the Model 2 than Model 3. "The Model 2 is a beautiful board that is simple to get right to the metal, " said Dyke. "The Model 3 was designed around more of a traditional simulator model with a host and GPU arrangement where the database runs the entire game."

While Dyke mentions getting to the metal easily, some developers such as Scott Corley and Dave Perry both voiced some concern over Microsoft's OS getting in the way. "Good developers will cut through the OS to get to the metal as they need it." says Dyke. "As long as Microsoft doesn't force the OS upon the developers it should be fine."

With the ease of development that is expected to go along with the system, and the double-edged sword that this situation can present, Dyke said that Sega's quality assurance program should help to weed out games from developers that are relying too much upon the base libraries or that are quick ports of substandard PC titles.

Both Dyke and O'Leary also pointed to one non-technical element that is different at Sega presently than it was at the launch of the Saturn: executive personnel. Both men cited the fact that Bernie Stollar was a major factor for the third party support that PlayStation enjoys and the fact that Stollar is now responsible for generating that same third party support for Sega. "They've assembled a really good team at Sega now and it's going to be interesting to see what the next generation brings." said Dyke.

http://web.archive.org/web/19970605161903/http://www.next-generation.com/news/042997b.chtml


SEGA could've STILL beeen in the hardware biz, if they'd convinced Lockheed Martin that the consumer market was the most important. Damn it.
 
the dreamcast was a mere stepping stone for xbox, i fucking loved the dreamcast to think if it had more powerful hardware it would of saved sega
 
the dreamcast was a mere stepping stone for xbox, i fucking loved the dreamcast to think if it had more powerful hardware it would of saved sega

Yeah, poor PowerVR2, as good as it was, was not able to compete with PS2 (I know Lazy8s will disagree with me) and especially GameCube.
If Sega had come out with a Lockheed Martin Real3D based console with a powerful custom PowerPC G3 CPU (similar to Gekko but more powerful) in the year 2000, there would've been no reason for the Xbox. It would've been a 3 horse race between Sony, Sega and Nintendo.
 

tkscz

Member
the dreamcast was a mere stepping stone for xbox, i fucking loved the dreamcast to think if it had more powerful hardware it would of saved sega

Hardware had little to do with it. Not sure which, but either it's GPU or CPU was stronger than the PS2's. No, it was the DVD that saved Sony. The PS2 was the cheapest DVD player you could buy, they held 4 GBs of memory, which really helped 3rd parties. And playstations name had grew beyond Sega's.
 

ajim

Member
We all play games, it’s one of the most natural things in life. It’s how we learn to think on our feet and take our chances. It’s how we get to know our friends and understand our opponents. This is Dreamcast - It’s time to compete together.
<3

Hardware had little to do with it. Not sure which, but either it's GPU or CPU was stronger than the PS2's. No, it was the DVD that saved Sony. The PS2 was the cheapest DVD player you could buy, they held 4 GBs of memory, which really helped 3rd parties. And playstations name had grew beyond Sega's
I agree, the DVD player was the deciding factor in the majority of the world. However, in certain regions like here in Australia, the Dreamcast was a no-named brand, even before the announcement of the PS2.
 

Christine

Member
Damnit herzog. I don't check who the creator is when I click on thread titles, and by no means do I click on all the threads that hit the front page, but I end up viewing every damn thread you post all the same. I don't even really care about unreleased Sega hardware, but somehow I know I'll find something like an ad for a dead tree edition of "Playing MUDs on the Internet".
 
magazine scans?

They're blurry camera shots, from a magazine from 1995.


Nah, if anything, a more expensive Dreamcast would have killed Sega even earlier.


In my scenario, SEGA would never have released the 32X. The Genesis+SegaCD would've lasted until 1996 and then Sega pulls the trigger on a much more 3D-powerful Saturn using Lockheed Martin Real3D/100. The board would've been much cleaner than Saturn: 1 PPC CPU, 1 Real3D GPU, 1 VDP for 2D, and a few chips for audio and CD-ROM controller, and backward compatibility. Then in 2000, SEGA unleashes their Saturn successor, not the PowerVR2 based Dreamcast but a console with a next-gen PPC GPU (G3) and next-gen Lockheed Martin Real3D GPU. Sega would've been successful with the Genesis+SegaCD, outpacing Nintendo. The Saturn would've still struggled against the PlayStation but still come in 2nd place, beating Nintendo 64 and 3DO M2. Sega would've then been in a good position with its partners (Microsoft, Lockheed, IBM, etc) to launch an incredible console that wiped the floor with the PS2, and prevented Sony from taking over the living room. There would be no Xbox. Sega made so many mistakes, it's unbelievable. This is my "what could have been" scenario.


Imagine, almost every Saturn/2 and Dreamcast game at 60fps!
 
So after all my posts in this thread, what do you, SEGA fans, think of what Sega was thinking about in the mid-late 1990s regarding Lockheed Martin. Just don't tell me it would've been Model-3 expensive because a single chip version of the Real3D/100 could've been massed produced for the console market.

I want to hear from you. More :)
 
I will say tho: When Sega released VF2, Virtua Cop & Sega Rally on Saturn, the difference in the graphics from everything else on Saturn were astounding. Too bad it was too late tho.
 
A consolized Model 2 would have made me shit bricks.


Model 2 was outdated by 1996, so Real3D/100 could've been much better.

Model 2: 300,000 textured polys/s
vs
R3D/100: 750,000 textured, fully featured polys/s



R3D/100 would've eaten Model 2 for lunch :)



Do you have a website/blog? I eat all this old stuff up but it gets lost on here sometimes

Nope, I just post on forums, I'm not into blogging, but I'd love to have a website someday.
 

Mitsurux

Member
I was under the impression (from sources i've long forgot) that the Saturn version of VF 3 actually was in a near completed form.... which would mean that the Lockheed cart would have to have been in some type of prototype form as well....


Had the dreamcast just had a DVD drive i think things may have been drastically different... but how much would that have increased the cost per-console.



great topic by the way...
 
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