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NFL 2015 Week 14 |OT| - A Fraud Probably Injures Himself

W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
squicken said:
Grossi with a pretty thorough takedown of Ray Farmer. I also didn't realize Grossi now writes for the main espn site, and no longer espncleveland. HoF voter. ESPN writer. Your guy has quite the resume, BG

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland//...-contributions-to-the-2015-browns-train-wreck

e: Line you got beef with Eagles' fans?
Click to expand...

I feel like there are two camps. Those who understand football and whom know Farmer is the problem and those who are reactionary fanboys who always fall to blaming the head coach during a losing season.

No coach on the face of the earth could win with the team Farmer put together. Most of the guys he's tried to force have ended up not even playing for the team. You can't win with a team full of actual third stringers and other team's cuts. It's not a thing that happens in the NFL.

You have to have talent and the Browns, right now, are lacking at it at every single position besides tackle. Cromwell wouldn't be on any other team's roster. No other team would have taken a chance on Dansby, and while he's basically the lone decent spot (I can't use bright, here) on the defensive side, he's at about half his production during his time with the Cards. Because he's old as shit. Whitner is also 4 years past his prime.

Here is another article on the kneejerk reactionaries that run the Browns. http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/12/10/cleveland-browns-head-coach-search-jimmy-haslam-mike-pettine

But Cleveland is going to Cleveland and get rid of yet another head coach after 2 years. The team will continue to lack consistency and continuity within its program, hire somebody else and then fire them after 2 more years of not winning. Because you don't fucking win in the NFL after 2 years with a broken organization. Shit does not get fixed overnight.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
chuckddd said:
Problem being, you can't fire your gm and not your coach. Unless you make your coach your gm, of course.
Click to expand...

I mean, you can, it's just not done often. Honestly, there is no real clear path back to success for Cleveland. A new GM making some smart choices during the offseason may help, but at the end of the day, they're stuck with Johnny and a roster full of dead weight. Most of their older veterans are done after this season, and likely only signed with Cleveland to get that last payday. They're going to have to have one of the best offseasons of all time to even make it to 8-8 next year.
 
S

squicken

Member
WanderingWind said:
I feel like there are two camps. Those who understand football and whom know Farmer is the problem and those who are reactionary fanboys who always fall to blaming the head coach during a losing season.
Click to expand...

Pettine is a bad HC. His thing is the defense and they are bad. They have more money than any team tied up on their defense and like 5 first round picks. He also really wanted Gilbert, who is the biggest draft mistake they have made since they came back in '99

Joe Haden's play has gotten worse each year with Pettine, as have guys who performed well elsewhere on defense. And like chuck said, if you hire a new GM, you can't saddle him to a coach, especially one who battled with his previous GM
 
B

BlackGhost

Banned
WanderingWind said:
I feel like there are two camps. Those who understand football and whom know Farmer is the problem and those who are reactionary fanboys who always fall to blaming the head coach during a losing season.

No coach on the face of the earth could win with the team Farmer put together. Most of the guys he's tried to force have ended up not even playing for the team. You can't win with a team full of actual third stringers and other team's cuts. It's not a thing that happens in the NFL.

You have to have talent and the Browns, right now, are lacking at it at every single position besides tackle. Cromwell wouldn't be on any other team's roster. No other team would have taken a chance on Dansby, and while he's basically the lone decent spot (I can't use bright, here) on the defensive side, he's at about half his production during his time with the Cards. Because he's old as shit. Whitner is also 4 years past his prime.

Here is another article on the kneejerk reactionaries that run the Browns. http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/12/10/cleveland-browns-head-coach-search-jimmy-haslam-mike-pettine

But Cleveland is going to Cleveland and get rid of yet another head coach after 2 years. The team will continue to lack consistency and continuity within its program, hire somebody else and then fire them after 2 more years of not winning. Because you don't fucking win in the NFL after 2 years with a broken organization. Shit does not get fixed overnight.
Click to expand...

I'm sick of this bullshit you keep spouting, pretty much paints the Cleveland fans to be dumb as fuck on here, and pettine being innocent in all of this. I'm glad you had a good year with pettine as coordinator in buffalo. I doubt you have as much info on the guy as HC like the majority of Browns gaf has. Yes the drafting has been bad but you paint it like pettine is blameless. Pettine has had many Mistakes and failures that fall on him, with I and others have listed multiple times in replying to your previous similar posts. yes I get it that you can't keep blowing shit up but this GM/ this coaching staff is taking this team in a very bad place. I doubt you're able to watch every Browns games, watch all pettines press conferences, see what the coaches are doing, and hear every tidbit about the team. Again I'm glad pettine was a good coordinator for you, I actually do like things about him....but pls don't paint him to be blameless and us to be idiots when I assume you actually know little about the actual situation besides what the mainstream media provides.
Edit: wanderings article - Pettine identified another corner as a spot he would need to operate the D, Gilbert was the guy pettine wanted. Farmer pulled the trigger
squicken said:
Grossi with a pretty thorough takedown of Ray Farmer. I also didn't realize Grossi now writes for the main espn site, and no longer espncleveland. HoF voter. ESPN writer. Your guy has quite the resume, BG

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland//...-contributions-to-the-2015-browns-train-wreck

e: Line you got beef with Eagles' fans?
Click to expand...
ESPN has changed the structure of there websites. It's not that he's writing for the main site it's just that the sites are streaming the material now. The ESPN Cleveland branch and other websites structure has changed. Your boy grossi is a regular on ESPN 850 with i tune into often, I'm also aware of all the articles he writes friend.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
squicken said:
Pettine is a bad HC. His thing is the defense and they are bad. They have more money than any team tied up on their defense and like 5 first round picks. He also really wanted Gilbert, who is the biggest draft mistake they have made since they came back in '99

Joe Haden's play has gotten worse each year with Pettine, as have guys who performed well elsewhere on defense. And like chuck said, if you hire a new GM, you can't saddle him to a coach, especially one who battled with his previous GM
Click to expand...

Gilbert was Farmer's call. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/11/browns_gm_ray_farmer_still_bel.html

And you say "each year" as if there is this huge sample size. The fact that we don't is exactly my point. And yeah, players who were once good get old and instead of going to Arizona, they go to Cleveland. And guess who is the manager giving them the contracts? Pettine may very well suck. We can't really say at this point. This isn't Mike Singletary pulling down his pants or Art Shell being brought back from the dead to prop up the Raiders. This is a first time HC with an inherited team. If the Browns have any hope of stabilizing, they can't continue to make the same exact mistakes over and over and over again and hope to magically strike gold and find a coach that can win with every other team's cast offs.

BlackGhost said:
I'm sick of this bullshit you keep spouting, pretty much paints the Cleveland fans to be dumb as fuck on here, and pettine being innocent in all of this. I'm glad you had a good year with pettine as coordinator in buffalo. I doubt you have as much info on the guy as HC like the majority of Browns gaf has. Yes the drafting has been bad but you paint it like pettine is blameless. Pettine has had many Mistakes and failures that fall on him, with I and others have listed multiple times in replying to your previous similar posts. yes I get it that you can't keep blowing shit up but this GM/ this coaching staff is taking this team in a very bad place. I doubt you're able to watch every Browns games, watch all pettines press conferences, see what the coaches are doing, and hear every tidbit about the team. Again I'm glad pettine was a good coordinator for you, I actually do like things about him....but pls don't paint him to be blameless and us to be idiots when I assume you actually know little about the actual situation besides what the mainstream media provides.
Click to expand...

Maybe calm down and stop typing like everybody's mom on Facebook. I never once said Pettine was blameless. My entire point was and continues to be, that firing a new coach every time the team starts to suck is why they continue to suck. The only Browns fans I'm insulting are the idiots that think some coach is going to come in on his white pegasus and lead a team of failures to victory. The NFL isn't the Sandlot. Remember a couple of years ago when everybody wanted to fire Rivera? Or when Coughlin had shit years, but is still rocking two rings? Or how about Marvin Lewis? Remember the calls to get rid of him when the team won only 4 games?

Fans are an impatient lot and they want victory right now. That's not a reality. Teams take time to build up and throwing out coaches and quarterbacks every year isn't going to ever lead to success.
 
S

squicken

Member
BlackGhost said:
ESPN has changed the structure of there websites. It's not that he's writing for the main site it's just that the sites are streaming the material now. The ESPN Cleveland branch and other websites structure has changed. Your boy grossi is a regular on ESPN 850 with i tune into often, I'm also aware of all the articles he writes friend.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. Thanks for the correction!
 
S

Slo

Member
death-gif-hanging-man-Favim.com-1632349.gif
 
F

Florida_Man_5000

Member
squicken said:
Pettine is a bad HC. His thing is the defense and they are bad. They have more money than any team tied up on their defense and like 5 first round picks. He also really wanted Gilbert, who is the biggest draft mistake they have made since they came back in '99

Joe Haden's play has gotten worse each year with Pettine, as have guys who performed well elsewhere on defense. And like chuck said, if you hire a new GM, you can't saddle him to a coach, especially one who battled with his previous GM
Click to expand...
Every team and draft expert wanted Gilbert, that wasn't a draft mistake. The Browns just don't have the coaching and enough talent to throw a young player into the most important position on defense, and expect them to succeed.

Also, Haden got injured so you can't blame anyone for that either.

I think Browns problems goes all the way to ownership.
 
C

Crisco

Banned
Only once have teammates won the awards in the same season: San Francisco 49ers quarterback Steve Young was the league MVP and cornerback Deion Sanders was the Defensive Player of the Year in 1994.
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0811panrail_305.JPG
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Also, it's worth pointing out that I'm not just shitting on the Browns here. I really do want Cleveland to be good. I think it's great for football to have actual parity in the league (and of course, I have some vested interest in seeing shitty teams become contenders). I shit on Buffalo fans who are ready to chuck out Rex, too. Cleveland is just the first to the race this year.
 
S

squicken

Member
If I was going to point to one thing that kills the Browns, it has been ownership. But the other is simply their division. They are in a division with 3 of the best organizations in the league. It's the same reason that Pittsburgh and BAL haven't won more titles than they have. Denver, NE and Indy have one or two tough games a year in their divisions. For a team like CLE, they have 6 very difficult games
 
F

FloydtheFathead

Member
Good morning..

See what you did Squicken.. Posting Tony Grossi.. It ruins relationships.

Also.. Yes. It sucks to continue to firing coaches.. Yes, between the two.. Farmer deserves the lion's share of the blame. Pettine is getting fired for how much that "defense" has acted out there.. They are all out of position and look confused. (See Tramon Williams) even if talent isn't there.. Show some effort for Christ's sake.

And yes, it starts with ownership. You know.. I really wished that the league would have taken the Browns from that Tom Sawyer bastard when the FBI scandal came to light.

So yeah.. I came to a realization.. Manziel is a perfect pick for us. He really is.. Think about it.. A guy who is living off past successes without ever winning the big one and still has groupies following him.. That can describe the Cleveland Browns in a nutshell.

Slo said:
death-gif-hanging-man-Favim.com-1632349.gif
Click to expand...

There is hope Slo.. It will be okay.. There will be a future.
 
E

eznark

Banned
Slo said:
death-gif-hanging-man-Favim.com-1632349.gif
Click to expand...

Hi friend!

I feel like there are two camps. Those who understand football and whom know Farmer is the problem and those who are reactionary fanboys who always fall to blaming the head coach during a losing season.
Click to expand...
There is talent on that defense. Pettine is garbage at getting anything out of it. So is Farmer. So is essentially every person involved in that organization except Joe Thomas.

squicken said:
They are in a division with 3 of the best organizations in the league.
Click to expand...

mike-brown-bengals.jpg
 
E

eznark

Banned
Beach said:
Is there a football equivilant for Baseball's WAR rating?
Click to expand...

Not that is worth anything, though remember it's taken WAR and similar metrics 30-ish years to develop.

I'm not convinced it'll ever happen for football. A lot easier to isolate relative value in baseball than in any other sport.
 
R

rando14

Member
eznark said:
Not that is worth anything, though remember it's taken WAR and similar metrics 30-ish years to develop.

I'm not convinced it'll ever happen for football. A lot easier to isolate relative value in baseball than in any other sport.
Click to expand...

In terms of pure stats, maybe ANY/A would be a decent benchmark?

I definitely dont trust PFF, and still not quite sure what to make of FO's DVOA and DYAR
 
E

eznark

Banned
rando14 said:
In terms of pure stats, maybe ANY/A would be a decent benchmark?

I definitely dont trust PFF, and still not quite sure what to make of FO's DVOA and DYAR
Click to expand...

Everyone at FO will tell you they are a serious work in progress if you ever talk to them one on one. They know they are in the nascent stages of developing something. But unless you publish it it'll never get peer reviewed basically. SABR stuff took so long because there was no clearinghouse, just a handful of people writing pamphlets and talking to each other. DYAR is advancing much more rapidly.

My issue is I think the idea is fundamentally flawed. In baseball you can extrapolate individual influence fairly easily because on the vast majority of pitches there is no one on base or the runners on base are stationary. Everyone reacts after the pitch, and at most the only thing that matters is the action of like 5 people depending on where the ball is hit, but mostly it's like three people and one of them is the first basemen who needs to move 5 feet. Easy to examine those plays and with better and better batted ball data, easy to pull useful information.

In football, on literally every singly play the actions of all 22 players matters a MASSIVE deal. And not only what those 22 players do, but how they interact with each other, who they interact with, and how they line up. As far as I am concerned, it's essentially impossible to create The Stat that will explain any individual players worth relative to another player.
 
B

bionic77

Member
rando14 said:
In terms of pure stats, maybe ANY/A would be a decent benchmark?

I definitely dont trust PFF, and still not quite sure what to make of FO's DVOA and DYAR
Click to expand...
Why are we so obsessed with stats?

I have never needed to consult the stats to confirm whether or not someone was playing great.

Football is such a team game that it is dumb to play so much emphasis on stats anyways.

Keep that shit in baseball where it belongs.
 
H

harSon

Banned
Beerman462 said:
Cardinals Red Zone performance isn't as good as it should be. This game 1 yard short with 4 downs and can't get it in. During the 49ers game they took like 7 shots from within 10 yards helped by 49er penalties so maybe without penalties they score sooner or maybe not at all. There are a few articles about their Red Zone problems especially following their Steelers loss.
Click to expand...

Bill Arians :3
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
eznark said:
Everyone at FO will tell you they are a serious work in progress if you ever talk to them one on one. They know they are in the nascent stages of developing something. But unless you publish it it'll never get peer reviewed basically. SABR stuff took so long because there was no clearinghouse, just a handful of people writing pamphlets and talking to each other. DYAR is advancing much more rapidly.

My issue is I think the idea is fundamentally flawed. In baseball you can extrapolate individual influence fairly easily because on the vast majority of pitches there is no one on base or the runners on base are stationary. Everyone reacts after the pitch, and at most the only thing that matters is the action of like 5 people depending on where the ball is hit, but mostly it's like three people and one of them is the first basemen who needs to move 5 feet. Easy to examine those plays and with better and better batted ball data, easy to pull useful information.

In football, on literally every singly play the actions of all 22 players matters a MASSIVE deal. And not only what those 22 players do, but how they interact with each other, who they interact with, and how they line up. As far as I am concerned, it's essentially impossible to create The Stat that will explain any individual players worth relative to another player.
Click to expand...

Hallelujah!
 
E

eznark

Banned
bionic77 said:
Why are we so obsessed with stats?

I have never needed to consult the stats to confirm whether or not someone was playing great.

Football is such a team game that it is dumb to play so much emphasis on stats anyways.

Keep that shit in baseball where it belongs.
Click to expand...

Actually, Steelers QB's are like the prime example of why stats are useful. Bradshaw and Ben (when they were winning super bowls) were middling to bad. Now I get to tell you that!

The real reason is it is coming from the teams who want to better evaluate talent as they spend hundreds of millions on these clowns.
 
G

Greg

Member
let's be real though

the only stats that really matter are how many INTs a QB has thrown, and how many game-winning drives they have led
 
B

BigAT

Member
Is there a reason Gary Barnidge isn't being put through the concussion protocol? If signing an extension with the Browns isn't a sign of serious head trauma, I don't know what is.
 
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