NFL 2016 Offseason Thread |OT3| - With the 29th pick of the 2016 NFL draft...

FMT is a dad! How best to celebrate?

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Ninja Scooter said:
what societal impact did Jordan have though? He was obviously insanely popular...maybe his impact is with the commercialization and branding of sports and an individual athlete.
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Commercialization alone, yeah.

But there's also something that I haven't seen quantified:

As a kid, the occasional racist shit I heard out of old white folks didn't really mesh with the fact I spent about 1000 hours in the driveway every summer trying to get that 15 foot fadeway to go in.

Fox318 said:
Is he?

Shit I also feel like Dale or Petty could be on the list.
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Dale probably had the biggest impact of any US race car driver since Mario Andretti -- due to his brand and image. But I don't think NASCAR itself has much of an impact, apart from in a few regions (where it was always popular anyway).
 
Ninja Scooter said:
OJ Simpson? Supposedly that new documentary on OJ touches on exactly this and is getting incredible hype.
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OJ might be it but I think you could make an argument that he was as much a product of the racial tensions on the west coast as anything else. Maybe his case was the cultural birthplace of the 24 hour news cycle but athletes have had their rise and fall before him.

Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose might also be up there.

Maybe its Ray Rice. Since that tape domestic violence went from a ha ha on family guy to a death wish to anyone's career (sports or otherwise) and has probably helped inform the uneducated as to the hidden domestic violence problem the country had/has.
 
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Lance Armstrong might go on that list, for better or worse.

The cancer thing, the fitness/health thing, the winning thing, the cheating thing...


e: It is interesting to me how hard it is to come up with anybody from the NFL, despite the popularity of the league. Maybe because it's such a team sport?

I guess me might be saying Junior Seau in a few decades, maybe.

e2: I'm sorry that I can only come up with depressing ones...
 
Elfforkusu said:
Lance Armstrong might go on that list, for better or worse.

The cancer thing, the fitness/health thing, the winning thing, the cheating thing...


e: It is interesting to me how hard it is to come up with anybody from the NFL, despite the popularity of the league. Maybe because it's such a team sport?

I guess me might be saying Junior Seau in a few decades, maybe.
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Jim Brown?
 
Elfforkusu said:
Lance Armstrong might go on that list, for better or worse.

The cancer thing, the fitness/health thing, the winning thing, the cheating thing...
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I just thought of him as well.

Renee Richards (Richard Raskind) probably should be on the list considering it was 1975.
 
Arthur Ashe goes on the list.

For football, I'd say Alan Page, who was one of the Purple People Eaters and NFL MVP became a Supreme Court justice in Minnesota and Steve Largent, who became a US Representative are probably the most influential.
 
Muhammad Ali
Babe Ruth
Babe Zaharias
Billy Jean King
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Ted Williams
Mickey Mantle
Michael Jordan
Julius Erving
Dale Earnhardt
Jim Brown
Williams Sisters
Pele
Tiger Woods
Wayne Gretzky
Bobby Orr

Infamous, but massively influential on culture
Lance Armstrong
OJ Simpson (not for good reasons. Like Hitler as Time's Man of the Year).
Pete Rose
 
2 guys who most impacted society during their time as athletes would be Tiger and Magic. You youngs can't understand what it was like with AIDS before Magic came along.

Tiger really made the game of golf a sport for all men. It wasn't just race. Golf became the sport that all guys could watch and play, old or young, rich or middle class, black or white. And of course it was a big deal for him to dominate Augusta like he did as a man with black ancestry, even if he never embraced the role as a trailblazer

Post career then obviously OJ, but he shouldn't receive any accolades or acknowledgment for what he has done
 
WanderingWind said:
Muhammad Ali
Babe Ruth
Babe Zaharias
Billy Jean King
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Ted Williams
Mickey Mantle
Michael Jordan
Julius Erving
Dale Earnhardt
Jim Brown
Williams Sisters
Pele
Tiger Woods
Wayne Gretzky
Bobby Orr

Infamous, but massively influential on culture
Lance Armstrong
OJ Simpson (not for good reasons. Like Hitler as Time's Man of the Year).
Pete Rose
Click to expand...

I don't see how Jordan is on the list. He's an icon and all but I'm not seeing societal impact. He honestly comes off as more of a douche than anything.

To be mentioned in the same breath as Ali when talking impact on society? Nah.
 
Spinluck said:
I don't see how Jordan is on the list. He's an icon and all but I'm not seeing societal impact. He honestly comes off as more of a douche then anything.
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We're not making a list of the nicest guys in sports. Him being a douche isn't relevant to anything. Most of the people on the list were douches. Fame is funny that way. But like him or not, Jordan was the biggest player of his era - to the point where stars are still compared to him decades after his retirement.

Impact? If I say "Jordans" bet you know what I'm talking about. The dude was in movies and still in commercials because of how famous he was/is. Impact isn't about how nice a person is, or whether you like the outcome of said impact.
 
WanderingWind said:
We're not making a list of the nicest guys in sports. Him being a douche isn't relevant to anything. Most of the people on the list were douches. Fame is funny that way. But like him or not, Jordan was the biggest player of his era - to the point where stars are still compared to him decades after his retirement.

Impact? If I say "Jordans" bet you know what I'm talking about. The dude was in movies and still in commercials because of how famous he was/is. Impact isn't about how nice a person is, or whether you like the outcome of said impact.
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Wasn't aware this was a popularity contest.

I could give a fuck about some shoes.
 
Spinluck said:
Wasn't aware this was a popularity contest.

I could give a fuck about some shoes.
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Then you don't understand what impact on society means. You don't like Jordan because you think he's a douche. Neat. Nobody cares. Denying his impact is just pants on head stupid, no matter if you "give a fuck about some shoes." You even edited to call him an "icon." How does one become iconic without making an impact, spin?
 
WanderingWind said:
Then you don't understand what impact on society means. You don't like Jordan because you think he's a douche. Neat. Nobody cares. Denying his impact is just pants on head stupid, no matter if you "give a fuck about some shoes." You even edited to call him an "icon." How does one become iconic without making an impact, spin?
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He's an icon for what he did on the court. His achievements are known, and he was the face of 90s basketball. But some of these guys are in history books, wtf did MJ do to be up there?

These list came up because of Ali's death, so I'll use him. Ali is known for his accomplishments within his respective sport. But he also had a major impact outside of that sport. At one point in time being the face of black athletes and blacks in America, and speaking up on fucked up issues that many shied away from. Saying fuck you to the US because he didn't believe in fighting that war, come on.

Ali became a symbol of black empowerment and embraced who and what he was. Jordan says he makes shoes for rich suburban kids and not for poor black ones. He also says it isn't his problem when black kids die fighting for his shoes. As big as MJ was he never really did shit or said shit about issues in communities that I believe he could've made a difference in. I guess we can agree to disagree, but I don't think he ranks up there.
 
You're acting like anybody said Jordan > Ali. Nobody said that. One guy having a bigger and different impact doesn't mean all lessers had none. Ali is at the top of the list. That doesn't mean the list begins and ends with him, or that all types of impact have to have been about race relations.

Jordan is a POP CULTURE icon that transcended the sport and carried him to worldwide international stardom. He made - and continues to make - an enormous impact on the commercialization of athletes during and post career. He's still considered one of, if not the, best players to ever lace up sneakers. The sneakers bearing his name continue to be chased by people across the world. Decades after he played, they're still making video games of him. He's been the subject of movies, documentaries and millions of articles.

These are all examples of his impact on the world. I'm not asking you to like the impact. We can argue over whether it was a net positive for culture or society at large. But that doesn't negate the literal fact that it happened. Not all impacts are positive.

We can't seriously argue that OJ didn't have an impact on American culture. Or Pete Rose didn't have an impact on baseball and its Hall of Fame. Or Lance Armstrong with bike racing. They weren't positive affecting agents on any of the above, but they still happened.
 
Spinluck said:
Wasn't aware this was a popularity contest.

I could give a fuck about some shoes.
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What about commercials? Branding? How about pushing the league to a height that guys like Juwan fucking Howard could get a 100+ million dollar contract? How about his shoes sucess bringing other players into the mix like ADDIAS, FILA, and Shaqs. How about SpaceJam? Allowing for future players to also get movies. How about his sucess with Gatorade? Which lead Sprite get invovle throwing hundreds of millions at other players ex. Kobe.

Jordan changed how NBA players could obtain wealth outside of basketball by being good at basketball. Obviously guys like Magic and Bird were doing converse and McDonalds commercial before Jordan but he brought it to the next level.

Now I agree he is not up on the level of Ali, but to flat out say he had no impact off the court is just silly.

This the same mother fucker that had giant ass poster on building in fucking Barcelona in 1992. How many other black dudes can you name of that was idolize in fucking Europe in the early 90s?
 
Good morning everyone

Fox318 said:
Ninja got me thinking when he said that Jackie Robinson and Ali were the 2 most important athletes in American history and it got me thinking about who are the most important athletes in American history?

Not just great athletes but athletes that had substantial societal impact on America.

I mean off the top of my head I can't help but feel like that list would have to include:

Muhammad Ali
Babe Ruth
Babe Zaharias
Billy Jean King
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Jim Thorpe
Magic Johnson


Maybe:?
Greg Louganis
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan
Sandy Koufax

Its tough to come up with any other lists with regards to ones who drove a conversation that impacted America.
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Jim Brown definitely needs to be added.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
what societal impact did Jordan have though? He was obviously insanely popular...maybe his impact is with the commercialization and branding of sports and an individual athlete.
Click to expand...

To go along with WW said earlier, Jordan is to Nike as Nike is to Jordan. The two are linked.

WanderingWind said:
Muhammad Ali
Babe Ruth
Babe Zaharias
Billy Jean King
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Ted Williams
Mickey Mantle
Michael Jordan
Julius Erving
Dale Earnhardt
Jim Brown
Williams Sisters
Pele
Tiger Woods
Wayne Gretzky
Bobby Orr

Infamous, but massively influential on culture
Lance Armstrong
OJ Simpson (not for good reasons. Like Hitler as Time's Man of the Year).
Pete Rose
Click to expand...

I'd probably purge Orr; Williams Sisters; and Mickey Mantle from that list. The problem with the Williams sisters is Tiger Woods transcended the sport, the Williams sister don't. Orr's the same. I'd probably take Dale off that list for the same reason.

Dr J is an interesting one, there has to be an athlete that rises with ESPN's in 1980s.

I'd honestly put Joe Montana up there, the 80s is where the NFL really made it's way to the top of the American sport hierarchy, and Montana is the symbol of that era. I'd also put Jack Nicklaus up there. Jim Thorpe's also a given. I"m also tempted to put Mark McGwire as he helped save baseball but at the same time he's the symbol of the steroid era.
 
Draxal said:
I'd probably purge Orr; Williams Sisters; and Mickey Mantle from that list. The problem with the Williams sisters is Tiger Woods transcended the sport, the Williams sister don't. Orr's the same. I'd probably take Dale off that list for the same reason.

Dr J is an interesting one, there has to be an athlete that rises with ESPN's in 1980s.

I'd honestly put Joe Montana up there, the 80s is where the NFL really made it's way to the top of the American sport hierarchy, and Montana is the symbol of that era.
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Orr and the Williams' are definitely the weakest. Orr, probably the weakest. I got no real defense. Just feels. Williams' I feel definitely belong on there. Serena has been so dominate for so long and both of them have made their mark on pop culture as well. Right now, you think tennis, you think of them. Well, Serena mostly.

Dale, I don't know shit about NASCAR, but that guy is like a religion down south. He may not have universal appeal, but for that segment of the population, he's as famous as anybody in any sport. Maybe he doesn't belong.

Mickey Mantle though? I won't even entertain him not being on the list. I shan't!
 
Draxal said:
To go along with WW said earlier, Jordan is to Nike as Nike is to Jordan. The two are linked.



I'd probably purge Orr; Williams Sisters; and Mickey Mantle from that list. The problem with the Williams sisters is Tiger Woods transcended the sport, the Williams sister don't. Orr's the same. I'd probably take Dale off that list for the same reason.

Dr J is an interesting one, there has to be an athlete that rises with ESPN's in 1980s.

I'd honestly put Joe Montana up there, the 80s is where the NFL really made it's way to the top of the American sport hierarchy, and Montana is the symbol of that era. I'd also put Jack Nicklaus up there. Jim Thorpe's also a given. I"m also tempted to put Mark McGwire as he helped save baseball but at the same time he's the symbol of the steroid era.
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I'm speaking more on the Canadian side of North American history but for me Orr is there as he basically changed how defenseman played. He's the blueprint to how defenseman play today in the NHL.

That's about all I have.
 
Fox318 said:
Ninja got me thinking when he said that Jackie Robinson and Ali were the 2 most important athletes in American history and it got me thinking about who are the most important athletes in American history?

Not just great athletes but athletes that had substantial societal impact on America.

I mean off the top of my head I can't help but feel like that list would have to include:

Muhammad Ali
Babe Ruth
Babe Zaharias
Billy Jean King
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Jim Thorpe
Magic Johnson


Maybe:?
Greg Louganis
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan
Sandy Koufax

Its tough to come up with any other lists with regards to ones who drove a conversation that impacted America.
Click to expand...
None of those athletes was honestly as big or as important as Ali. He was bigger than sports. Robison was too in his own way, but he surely didn't get the coverage or attention that Ali did. Ali is a different conversation than any of those athletes.
 
WanderingWind said:
Orr and the Williams' are definitely the weakest. Orr, probably the weakest. I got no real defense. Just feels. Williams' I feel definitely belong on there. Serena has been so dominate for so long and both of them have made their mark on pop culture as well. Right now, you think tennis, you think of them. Well, Serena mostly.

Dale, I don't know shit about NASCAR, but that guy is like a religion down south. He may not have universal appeal, but for that segment of the population, he's as famous as anybody in any sport. Maybe he doesn't belong.

Mickey Mantle though? I won't even entertain him not being on the list. I shan't!
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My list would have it a couple ways.

1. Overall super athletes
Jim Thorpe and Babe Zacharias will be here.

2. Athletes who had significant moments that had huge cultural impacts
Muhammad Ali; Jesse Owens (he should be in 1 as well though) /John Carlos-Tommy Smith/Billie Jean King. On a lesser tier for me in this would be the 1980 MOI team/Brandi Chastain.

3. Great Athletes from the big three (MLB/NBA/NFL --- the NHL fanbase is just too small in the Americas) with cultural impact. Babe Ruth saving baseball. Jackie Robinson integrating baseball. Joe D bringing marrying hollywood to sports. Julius Erving inventing the highlight reel and bringing up ESPN's rise, Jim Brown ... just being Jim Brown; Joe Montana making the NFL the king of sports. Michael Jordan and the rise of Nike into a juggernaut.

4. Great Athletes from other sports who transcended the sport. Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods made golf way more popular than it ever was before they arrived. Ali obviously fits here as well as does Gretzky and Pele.

Kave_Man said:
I'm speaking more on the Canadian side of North American history but for me Orr is there as he basically changed how defenseman played. He's the blueprint to how defenseman play today in the NHL.

That's about all I have.
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I only put it in as an American perspective, because if you brought in Orr, would you have to bring in other NHL oldies into the conversation, the NHL just isn't that popular in the states. Gretzky's here because he made the NHL cool in the states for a bit (and is now an American citizen I guess)
 
BlackGhost said:
*waves at Xia
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Week 1
Cleveland at Philadelphia Eagles (-7.5)
Week 2
Baltimore Ravens (-3) at Cleveland
Week 3
Cleveland at Miami Dolphins (-7)
Week 4
Cleveland at Washington Redskins (-7.5)
Week 5
New England Patriots (-7) at Cleveland
Week 6
Cleveland at Tennessee Titans (-3.5)
Week 7
Cleveland at Cincinnati Bengals (-11.5)
Week 8
New York Jets (-5) at Cleveland
Week 9
Dallas Cowboys (-5) at Cleveland
Week 10
Cleveland at Baltimore Ravens (-8.5)
Week 11
Pittsburgh Steelers (-8.5) at Cleveland
Week 12
New York Giants (-3.5) at Cleveland
Week 13
BYE
Week 14
Cincinnati Bengals (-7.5) at Cleveland
Week 15
Cleveland at Buffalo Bills (-9)
Week 16
San Diego Chargers (-2) at Cleveland
Click to expand...

Cleveland is also favored to win exactly 0 of their games

*waves at BG
 
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