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[Joel Was Right]

Kelly Kelly and Maria, two "divas" from the WWE, came on a show recently where viewers could pose their questions. I emailed the studio the following question:

Female athletes never get the same recognition as their male counterparts and as wrestling is largely male orientated especially in its viewer demographic, were you as women conscious of how you MIGHT be perceived in the ring? If we use boxing as an example, where on one end of the spectrum there are ring girls whom are only there as 'eye candy' and on the opposite side of the spectrum you have female boxers, is it accurate to say WWE presents women somewhere in the middle of that range or do you think that unfair?

I really wanted to be fair and not seem provocative so I thought this question would be posed but sadly it wasn't. So maybe we can talk about the status and more importantly the roles of these types of jobs for women.

These NFL cheerleaders, I mean, what category of a job is that? Yes, its entertainment but is so being a circus juggler. I mean it's obvious that they these girls with their clothing and 'dance moves' are there to seek the attention of hormonal males. But is it fair to say they are using only sexuality in this regard? How many of you would be comfortable in knowing your daughters would want to be either a diva or a NFL cheerleader? It's strange because we don't categorise these jobs in the same way as we do as e.g. strip bar and most look down at strippers because they're essentially using their bodies.


But we live in this gender-equality centric society now where some women don't even want to you open the door for them and you have to be careful how you word your sentences, so why is it that these type of jobs get given a free pass? I don't know anyone who watches these NFL cheerleaders in admiration for their dancing or these divas for their athleticism - we just drool at them and its ironic that some of these girls actually believe the attention they get isn't based on their butt or breasts.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

It's quick money for not a lot of work. I'm sure the women who engage in them either:

Don't try to think about how they're regarded in society

Don't care.

 

[bjork]

More comfortable knowing that than seeing them come up in the newest videos on youjizz or something.

 

[jon bones]

there are male equivalents, so your "equality" thing is a load of crap. all people can be judged on their looks, not just women.

these women made a choice to do what they do, who are you to question their career decisions?

also, i'm not sure you know what "irony" means

EDIT: it's my job as a father to instill a sense of self-worth and ambition into this hypothetical daughter. if her greatest asset ends up becoming her looks instead of her brain then that's on me

 

[Tamanon]

Many women are empowered by being able to use their sexuality. A lot of them just see it as one of their good parts to take advantage of.

 

[PantherLotus]

I'm guessing you know about...zero NFL Cheerleaders? Many of them are highly educated professionals with a bright future in executive leadership. I don't blame you for believing in the high-school stereotype, but the position is somewhere between modeling and marketing, and requires more than flexibility.

 

[gumshoe]

Many women are empowered by being able to use their sexuality. A lot of them just see it as one of their good parts to take advantage of.

empowering women and men by encouraging them to use their sexuality is degrading and unhealthy. They are nothing more than sex objects in the eyes of other people.

 

[Ceres]

It's quick money for not a lot of work. I'm sure the women who engage in them either:

Don't try to think about how they're regarded in society

Don't care.

I'd hardly say being a part of WWE, regardless of their status as a diva or actual female wrestler, is something that gets quick money for not a lot of work. It's as stupid as the people who bitch about The Rock doing Disney movies instead of being the biggest star at WWE.

 

[jon bones]

the real question at hand is: why are grown men still watching professional wrestling?

empowering women and men by encouraging them to use their sexuality is degrading and unhealthy. They are nothing more than sex objects in the eyes of other people.

this is sarcasm, right?

 

[andycapps]

I'm guessing you know about...zero NFL Cheerleaders? Many of them are highly educated professionals with a bright future in executive leadership. I don't blame you for believing in the high-school stereotype, but the position is somewhere between modeling and marketing, and requires more than flexibility.

It also requires most of them having eating disorders. If they gain a certain amount of weight, some of them can get dumped.

 

[MisterHero]

I don't know about putting female wrestlers next to ring girls like the thread title; though there's nothing wrong with them having those jobs if they're good at them.

 

[bjork]

the real question at hand is: why are grown men still watching professional wrestling?

The same reason people watch anything?

 

[Tamanon]

It also requires most of them having eating disorders. If they gain a certain amount of weight, some of them can get dumped.

So does boxing and playing football.

They're actually regular people who have a side-job for part of the year. I worked in the administrative office with a cheerleader for the Jaguars, nothing different about her at all from other women.

 

[andycapps]

So does boxing and playing football.

They're actually regular people who have a side-job for part of the year. I worked in the administrative office with a cheerleader for the Jaguars, nothing different about her at all from other women.

From some of the expose' articles I've read on the professional cheerleading industry, it seems to want them to be a pretty absurd size, though. I can understand them not wanting plus size cheerleaders out there, but have seen some indications from ex-cheerleaders that are a size 2-4 that they were told they were fat and needed to lose weight (and no, I don't remember any links for articles).

 

[Brobzoid]

It also requires most of them having eating disorders. If they gain a certain amount of weight, some of them can get dumped.

controlling your weight isn't a disorder. It's actually quite orderly

 

[jon bones]

The same reason people watch anything?

i guess the reason people watch anything is "to be mentally stimulated"

so my question still stands

 

[Ceres]

i guess the reason people watch anything is "to be mentally stimulated"

so my question still stands

You don't watch much tv, do you?

 

[bjork]

i guess the reason people watch anything is "to be mentally stimulated"

so my question still stands

The same question could be applied to anything. Different strokes.

 

[lethial]

It's the same as promotion girls - sex sells. You could say most sports are geared towards men, and as a man, I enjoy looking at pretty girls. Sure it doesn't add to the experience or product, but it's nice to know someone out there cares enough to put these girls in skimpy clothes for my...amusement.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Cheerleaders... make shit tons of money, have backgrounds in dance, and do not have to get naked.

Of course they are looked upon more favorably than strippers.

 

[jon bones]

You don't watch much tv, do you?

no, not much.

taken from the "favorite shows" portion of the ol fb:

30 rock, arrested development, bored to death, carnivale, it's always sunny in philadelphia, john adams, LOST, mad men, planet earth, pushing daisies, south park, the wire


i used to watch wrestling too. when i was 6.

 

[MojoRisin]

I'm guessing you know about...zero NFL Cheerleaders? Many of them are highly educated professionals with a bright future in executive leadership. I don't blame you for believing in the high-school stereotype, but the position is somewhere between modeling and marketing, and requires more than flexibility.

Yea I know a cheerleader for the New York Jets and she is just doing it as side money to help pay for her tuition. It also helps that she is beautiful.

 

[bjork]

Oh. You're one of those. No wonder.

 

[jmdajr]

More comfortable knowing that than seeing them come up in the newest videos on youjizz or something.

hahaha...yeah I guess if that's the other option

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I'd hardly say being a part of WWE, regardless of their status as a diva or actual female wrestler, is something that gets quick money for not a lot of work. It's as stupid as the people who bitch about The Rock doing Disney movies instead of being the biggest star at WWE.

Not to make light of the grueling WWE schedule, but the Divas don't go through anywhere near the punishment the male wrestlers do, and while they're not paid as much, it's still damn good for what they're doing.

 

[jecclr2003]

Not to make light of the grueling WWE schedule, but the Divas don't go through anywhere near the punishment the male wrestlers do, and while they're not paid as much, it's still damn good for what they're doing.

They are still on the road constantly, the ones who do wrestle are getting dropped on their backs repeatedly every time they step foot in a ring.

Compared to how much of their life is away and on the road, they really don't get paid all that much.

 

[Rorschach]

Ring girls are the only ones in the OP that don't take talent and are only there because they're purdy.

 

[Joel Was Right]

there are male equivalents, so your "equality" thing is a load of crap. all people can be judged on their looks, not just women.

these women made a choice to do what they do, who are you to question their career decisions?

also, i'm not sure you know what "irony" means

EDIT: it's my job as a father to instill a sense of self-worth and ambition into this hypothetical daughter. if her greatest asset ends up becoming her looks instead of her brain then that's on me

Just out of interest, what are the male equivalents of NFL cheer leading and ring girls?

Ring girls are the only ones in the OP that don't take talent and are only there because they're purdy.

And yet no one cares for their talent - no one recognises them as more than sex symbol

 

[-COOLIO-]

if i could do annnny of those jobs, i gladly would.

 

[Ceres]

Not to make light of the grueling WWE schedule, but the Divas don't go through anywhere near the punishment the male wrestlers do, and while they're not paid as much, it's still damn good for what they're doing.

The Divas have it the easiest within the company for sure, but I still wouldn't call being on the road that often an easy lifestyle. Especially the ones that actually become "legitimate" wrestlers.

 

[joelseph]

The Chicago Blackhawk Ice Girls. My god.

 

[Tamanon]

Just out of interest, what are the male equivalents of NFL cheer leading and ring girls?



And yet no one cares for their talent - no one recognises them as more than sex symbol

How is that different from being a model?

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Women continue to get jobs based on their looks. Men continue to get jobs based on their physical strength. The difference being the former tends to pay better. I'd say women don't have it so bad...even if they are marginalized in sports.

 

[Rorschach]

Just out of interest, what are the male equivalents of NFL cheer leading and ring girls?

Why are you focusing on the NFL? Not all NFL teams even have them. And the male equivalent of a ring girl is probably a male model/spokesperson?

And yet no one cares for their talent - no one recognises them as more than sex symbol

You don't care about their talent. You don't recognize them as more than a sexy symbol.

 

[Ceres]

Women continue to get jobs based on their looks. Men continue to get jobs based on their physical strength. The difference being the former tends to pay better. I'd say women don't have it so bad...even if they are marginalized in sports.

I assume you meant to say latter? The top male sports stars make far more money than the top supermodels. Even Gisele earns about 3x as much as the second highest paid model.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Why are you focusing on the NFL? Not all NFL teams even have them. And the male equivalent of a ring girl is probably a male model/spokesperson?

....wut

You don't care about their talent. You don't recognize them as more than a sexy symbol.

This is a really silly way of trying to get your point across. The point I am making is that whilst these women can be intelligent, confident and in any sense comparable to women in higher "status" job positions, the very fact that they are in a role that is purely meant to propagate beauty and sexuality to the large male audience essentially negates any kind of characteristic ,other than that sexuality, to those who see them. So when I see e.g. a ring girl like below, I don't see her as anything but this hot girl and the male crowd will play to that. This is in contrast to the perception towards the male wrestlers or fighters.

(NSFW)

http://cdn2.maxim.com/maxim/files/2007/01/30/nfl-cheerleaders-2006-/cheerleaders-gm_l1.jpg

When you see cheerleaders wearing short skirts or tight short pants whilst adoring their breasts to the crowd and then take calender shots in bikinis when not in front of a crowd, I'm sorry but I cant help but think why is such an intelligent and educated woman putting herself in a role where she will only be recognised purely as a sex symbol? And if they're intelligent enough as we assuming, then they realise this.

I'm not judging them as individuals but you cannot argue, in my opinion, that these roles somehow have an underlying point to portray these girls as something other than how they portray themselves to be everytime they are in the public. That's why I asked the question in regards to fathers. I wouldn't want my daughter, or son, to be in some kind of role which I feel negates their persona into one single image such as sex.

How is that different from being a model?

That's the thing, it's not but at least we all acknowledge the role of the model is to portray their beauty. But I don't think you can categorise all models, or forms of modelling, as sexually orientated as some of the stuff we see in the ring or those calenders. Me personally, I wouldn't want any of my kids to be involved in that latter category.

 

[bucklam66]

Cheerleaders... make shit tons of money, have backgrounds in dance, and do not have to get naked.

Of course they are looked upon more favorably than strippers.

Most aren't paid at least the Dallas Cowboy girls aren't. They make money from appearances and calendars and stuff.

 

[jon bones]

Just out of interest, what are the male equivalents of NFL cheer leading and ring girls?



And yet no one cares for their talent - no one recognises them as more than sex symbol

male models? tons of dudes cast in commercials, or hired to sit outside a hollister without a shirt on?


stop separating men from women here - both can be recognized as a sex symbol and there is nothing wrong with it

 

[jon bones]

I don't see her as anything but this hot girl and the male crowd will play to that. This is in contrast to the perception towards the male wrestlers or fighters.

no, that's in contrast to YOUR perception toward male wrestlers.

chicks aren't hyped on those dudes because of their actual ninjitsu skill / dramatized backflip shenanigans

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Between the ages of 18 and 30 I'd be more concerned about making that money than my place in the world.

 

[BattleMonkey]

And yet no one cares for their talent - no one recognises them as more than sex symbol

What talent do ring girls have again?

 

[Joel Was Right]

male models? tons of dudes cast in commercials, or hired to sit outside a hollister without a shirt on?


stop separating men from women here - both can be recognized as a sex symbol and there is nothing wrong with it

I have not differentiated the two genders, in fact if you've read my posts more clearly you would have noticed that I refer to both in context. As already mentioned, modelling has different categories but there is one that essentially does the same thing as what I suggest in my OP, you're right and they are - in my opinion (which can differ to yours) - just as degrading although the definition of degrading in terms of sexuality is often viewed differently between men and women interestingly. That is another discussion altogether.

The original point here is that these roles (at least the female example) encourage the chauvinistic male stereotypes of women. Case in point my opinion in how female wrestlers are viewed differently than their male counterparts.

What talent do ring girls have again?

I was talking in terms of female wrestlers/cheerleaders. I'm sure ring girls have talents as well, it's absurd to imply that you have no talent if your career is based on your physical appearance. However your personal talents are secondary, in terms of how people view you, when you are in these type of roles.

 

[Dude Abides]

When you see cheerleaders wearing short skirts or tight short pants whilst adoring their breasts to the crowd and then take calender shots in bikinis when not in front of a crowd, I'm sorry but I cant help but think why is such an intelligent and educated woman putting herself in a role where she will only be recognised purely as a sex symbol? And if they're intelligent enough as we assuming, then they realise this.

Because they either don't care or think the money outweighs whatever qualms they have about being viewed as a sex object. Same as any other job that has undesirable aspects.

 

[daw840]

Cheerleaders... make shit tons of money, have backgrounds in dance, and do not have to get naked.

Of course they are looked upon more favorably than strippers.

They absolutely do NOT make shit tons of money. NFL Cheerleaders are lucky to make $100 bucks a game. Unless you are a Laker girl, or a Cowboy Cheerleader, you don't make shit. Even then, they don't make any money from the actual games they make money from putting that on their resumes and being dancers in music videos and such. NOT from actually being a cheerleader.

 

[BattleMonkey]

They absolutely do NOT make shit tons of money. NFL Cheerleaders are lucky to make $100 bucks a game. Unless you are a Laker girl, or a Cowboy Cheerleader, you don't make shit. Even then, they don't make any money from the actual games they make money from putting that on their resumes and being dancers in music videos and such. NOT from actually being a cheerleader.

No not from the cheerleading itself, but they make good money from doing lot of promotional work outside of the actual games.

 

[Tamanon]

I have not differentiated the two genders, in fact if you've read my posts more clearly you would have noticed that I refer to both in context. As already mentioned, modelling has different categories but there is one that essentially does the same thing as what I suggest in my OP, you're right and they are - in my opinion (which can differ to yours) - just as degrading although the definition of degrading in terms of sexuality is often viewed differently between men and women interestingly. That is another discussion altogether.

The original point here is that these roles (at least the female example) encourage the chauvinistic male stereotypes of women. Case in point my opinion in how female wrestlers are viewed differently than their male counterparts.



I was talking in terms of female wrestlers/cheerleaders. I'm sure ring girls have talents as well, it's absurd to imply that you have no talent if your career is based on your physical appearance. However your personal talents are secondary, in terms of how people view you, when you are in these type of roles.

Sexuality isn't taboo to everyone.

 

[Joel Was Right]

no, that's in contrast to YOUR perception toward male wrestlers.

chicks aren't hyped on those dudes because of their actual ninjitsu skill / dramatized backflip shenanigans

I beg to differ. I will go on record and say that is fair and even logical to assert that the majority of the male audience view these "divas" differently to their male counterparts and probably their employers too if we are to take some of the examples of lingerie "pillow-fighting" into account. Their attitudes are mainly sexually motivated in my opinion. You can always assume that the complete opposite, but you'll need to do more than just say "not YOUR different" to build a case because I'm not personally convinced that they are seen as much more than "hot chicks".

And can you please drop the tone? I don't have an agenda here but I get the impression - rightly or wrongly - that you are being unjustly combative here.