The_Darkest_Red
Member
Probably has more juice in the tank than Wayne at this point.
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NFL Offseason Thread 2015 |OT2| Home of Baseball, Anime, Cricket, and Magic Johnson
- Thread starter Fox318
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bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Oh jeez here we go.
As a whole unit? That's easily the most stacked they've had it since Moss. It's not fireworks but it's solid across the board. Add in Gronk opening everything up and hopefully ridley back on a prove it they can be more solid.
The problem early in the year was a combination of things- poor line play, only Edelman able to get seperation given Gronks lack of explosiveness at the start. Lafell was absolutely non-existant and DA was horrendous. If DA somehow stays it seems he's finally healthy, and even if he's not I imagine hartline should slot in fine, especially since Gronk will be 100%, Edelman will be doing work, Lafell playing matchups, and Hartline as a 3rd/4th option (again toss in amendola and you can mix and match). Reggie wayne would have a smaller role, but he's still got his hands and he's multiple years removed from the surgery.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
For the Pats that's like having 5 Jerry Rice's on the team.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
Fun fact: Reggie Wayne was drafted before Grand Theft Auto III released.
The Pats turned Randy Moss into a serviceable receiver, why not these guys?
Lot of white receivers not named Jordy or Welker
Can't tell if being sarcastic, but check their WR groups in the past 5 or 6 years outside of Welker. Brandon Tate, Sam Aiken, Isaiah Stanbeck, washed up Deion Branch, Chad Ocho, Brandon Lloyd, Kenbrell Thompkins, Taylor Price, Joey Galloway, etc. etc.
edit- forgot Austin Collie lol
You obviously didn't actually watch Reggie Wayne play last year. He's not good. It's over. The Patriots receivers overachieved this season, especially in the post-season. The only one good enough to consistently win one on one matchups is Edelman. I loved LaFell, he's really solid, a good blocker, and good with YAC, but he's not a dynamic receiver in any sense. So much of the Patriots' offense relied on deception and play action in order to get receivers open. As a unit, it's poor. You add in Brian Hartline, it's a little better because he's a competent receiver, but it's not a "hell of a group" in any sense.
If you add someone like Torrey Smith, then I'm interested. If it's Andre Johnson, I think the unit gets better, but it's a short-term fix. Their best bet is making sure Aaron Dobson is healthy and committed.
I did watch him play and I said he's dropped off, but again I'm talking more about his veteran presence and he's seriously better depth than they've had in years. You constantly come out with "you obviously didn't watch" cut that garbage out man seriously. Try to understand what I'm saying. None of them are world beaters, but the beginning of this season we literally had edelman at Receiver and that was it. As far as Tom was concerned nobody else was worth lookin at.
If you guys watched a single Pats game last year you'd know that it takes more than a few days of nothing in free agency to bring down Tom Brady. Last year he reinvented the deep ball so hard it turned into a 5 yard dink and dunk pass and it went all the way to the Owl and conquered the planet
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Reggie Wayne is finished. Him being injured doesn't mean shit when he was clearly done before injury.
Why would Reggie Wayne's veteran presence matter one iota? He's slow, can't stretch the field, and knows literally nothing about the Patriots offense. I'd rather have the "upside" of Josh Boyce taking snaps than Reggie Wayne. The idea of a "veteran presence" is idiotic. We could bring in Deion Sanders as a "veteran presence" for our secondary, but guess what, he can't play anymore. It happens. The obsession with once great players has to stop at a certain point.
Himynameischris
Member
It's such a beautiful day today I feel sorry for anyone suffering in the snow
The_Darkest_Red
Member
Pats should look at adding Polamalu for some quality depth.
I hate this idea of a "veteran presence" like it means anything. If Reggie Wayne is performing like he did last year, he is of no use to this team.
The Pats aren't a young team that needs some sort of guidance by a washed up receiver.
Edit: great minds, cola!
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Alright so we agree to disagree on what somebody like wayne does for a locker room. I'll take a bunch of guys like that, if they're cheap. That's one thing about Vince that'll be missed for sure. It's not a game changer, but neither is his price tag. I believe mentors and guys who have a proven work ethic are valuable to a team. Pats have plenty of these guys, and luckily enough to rally the troops when things were lookin down last season, but it doesn't hurt to have more.
Josh Boyce has upside?
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I saw Jason Taylor play for the Jets... I saw Zach Thomas play for the Cowboys...
I've seen some shit.
Dobson had a better rookie season than Alshon Jeffrey
Any player that can run a 4.34 40 with a broken toe has upside, though it doesn't mean they'll ever reach said upside. But I'd much rather have someone who knows the system and has speed than an old receiver who can't play and doesn't know the offense. The Reggie Wayne that the Patriots wanted to sign in 2011 is long gone. He doesn't exist and he's not coming back.
Veteran players give their teammates +2 AWR brah.
Skiptastic
Member
As a Colts fan, I hate to admit it, but it's true. The injury two seasons ago put a big damper on his speed and the triceps injury just killed his ability to reliably catch.
I hope he comes back as WR coach. Colts could use his leadership on the sideline, they are so young. TY Hilton is the elder statesman of the WR corp now.
Himynameischris
Member
I saw Jason Taylor play for the Jets... I saw Zach Thomas play for the Cowboys...
I've seen some shit.
Those were dark times, I still haven't forgiven him completely but his retirement game made up for it a little
Reggie Wayne rookie season: 27 receptions, 345 yards, 0 TDs
Aaron Dobson rookie season: 37 receptions, 519 yards, 4 TDs
Not saying Aaron Dobson will become the player Reggie Wayne was. I guarantee that will never, ever happen. But the fact that you want to cut 23-year-old Dobson and sign 36-year-old Wayne shows how insane your logic is.
No way. He's done. They wanted him a few years ago when he was still a legit option.
Lol back to this again? I never said I wanted him cut, I said I wouldn't be surprised.
Bethel Johnson
Taylor Price
brandon tate
chad jackson
josh boyce (yes we cut him)
Ringing any bells? I also said I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong, but the guy looks like a bum.
You're logic is far more insane than mine. You post stats from teams that had other players already established. The pats had NOBODY to turn to. Dobson would not have been on the field if he wasn't a last resort.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
Racist.
.
That move is so Jets too.
So Bears are just gonna tank this season right?
Panthers signed OT Michael Oher to a 2-year deal per the team.
Are you not inspired? You may need to watch his movie a few more times!
This is an extremely flawed argument. Wayne played all 16 games from his second season on up until 2013. Dobson can't even stay on the field, and was never ever even close to being on the same page as Brady. Thompkins had more chemistry than Dobson which should tell you everyting you need to know about Dobson. Although, I agree with your point LOL at cutting Dobson to sign Wayne. Just disagree with the way you are going about arguing it.
Nobody ever suggested this, he's just making things up at this point.
I mean...you listed a prospective WR group with Wayne and Hartline and didn't include Dobson.
C'mon, dude. At least own your nonsensical ramblings.
My argument boils down to this: Aaron Dobson has potential. He may never reach it, but it's up to the coaching staff to develop him into a quality receiver. Reggie Wayne has no potential. He's a Hall of Famer, but he's done. I think it would be dumb to cut bait on a receiver with potential, and dumb to sign a receiver without potential. That's it.
Nooo you misunderstood, he doesn't want to sign Wanye to replace Dobson. He wants to cut Dobson but then sign Wayne in a completely unrelated move.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
How's that crow taste, msdstc?
I don't really understand why you've decided to be a dick, but whatever.
I own that I think Dobson is garbage lol, because he is and again I'll eat crow if/when I'm wrong. I never said I wanted to bring Wayne on in place of Dobson, you're absolutely putting words in my mouth. I think your Alshon Jeffrey comparison and Wayne comparison is the most asinine logic I've read.
You also go on to say I use his second season to down him which is skewed. I don't use his second season as my own belief I use your own logic against you here. You continue to bring up "best rookie receiver for Brady", that means NOTHING. His first season was skewed as well given he was forced into it, similar to how T-rich had 10 TDs his first season since there was nobody else(and they had invested a ton into him). Dobson was the only body they had, in fact they were throwing anything that would stick- greg salas, the corpse of austin collie, Hooman playing role of gronk, etc. etc.
Sorry what crow? Again I own that Dobson is garbage.
Where did I say I want to cut him for Wayne? Better yet when did I say I wanted him cut period? I said I'd be shocked if he was on the team, history has proven that's how Bill works, I'll post it again though.
- Chad Jackson
- Bethel Johnson
- Taylor Price
- Kenbrell Thompkins
- Josh Boyce
More that I'm probably forgetting all cut on their rookie deals in their 2nd or 3rd year after "showing flashes"
edit- book these posts because seriously it's a win win for me. If Dobson turns out a significant contributer I'll be psyched. When we signed him I heard comparisons to guys like Sidney Rice(he was talented, but lacked drive and durability) or Fitzy, not in the overall package, but more in jump ball kind of way with sure hands. What we got was a stone handed receiver, he struggled with durability and seperation. It's early, but indications are not good given his foot injuries and reports of him running his mouth.
Panthers signed OT Michael Oher to a 2-year deal per the team.
would have taken him in Tampa at Left or Right Tackle, better then what we have. #whogoneprotectjameis.
I didn't include- Dobson, Tyms, or Boyce, because I believe these guys have something to prove. I listed wayne as a veteran presence, already said we agree to disagree. I'm imagining the guy gets peanuts either way and basically a non-factor to the cap.
Arguing with you is the single most frustrating experience I've had on GAF. This long ass rant will hopefully be my last word on this dumb Dobson debate we've been having. How is it asinine logic to compare a wide receiver to two other wide receivers? My point has been clear and I've never equivocated: I think Aaron Dobson has potential to develop into a quality wide receiver. He had a good rookie season, one that was statistically superior to the rookie seasons from wide receivers such as Reggie Wayne and Alshon Jeffrey. The point in saying that is not to say that he is better than either player, rather that their rookie seasons were not indicative of the players they would become. Wide receiver, like cornerback, can be a difficult position to transition into from college to the NFL. Some receivers take several years before the light switches on for them.
Aaron Dobson's second season was a disaster, but it was a disaster because of his injuries and ineffectiveness in practice, not because he was a terrible player on the field. Is it possible that he would have been terrible if he was on the field? Sure, entirely possible. Again, I'm not saying that Dobson is a great player, I'm saying that he has potential. My only point is that you don't cut bait on highly athletic 23-year-old players with potential because they have one bad season.
The difference between Dobson and, say, Chad Ochocinco, is that Ochocino was on the field and couldn't produce. Dobson wasn't on the field in 2014. He played in four games, one of which he left after his first snap because he pulled his hamstring. By all indications, his lack of playing time was because he had trouble separating in practice because of the lingering effects of his foot surgery, and if you can't practice well, you can't play under Belichick.
For some reason you don't understand the concept of player development. When a player isn't on the field, it can be for several different reasons. It can be because he can't play or it can be because he hasn't developed fully. Look at Jamie Collins in 2013. He wasn't on the field until the playoffs because he wasn't ready. By your logic, he should've been cut mid-season because he wasn't producing. But that's not how the NFL actually works.
The Patriots typically carry 5-6 receivers on their roster. If you think that Reggie Wayne deserves a spot on the Patriots roster because of his "veteran presence" then that will come at the expense of Aaron Dobson or Josh Boyce. You are in favor of cutting Dobson because he is "garbage" and want Wayne on the roster. If you think I'm conflating these two ideas, you need to understand that NFL rosters can only have 53 players on them and if you add one player, it means you have to deduct another.
I didn't call any fellow Lion fans idiots I just disagreed with the philosophy of just letting Suh walk. Now that it seems like a possibility I'm starting to look at other options and through free agency and the draft we'll be back in the playoffs again this year.
No matter what happens with Suh at the end of the day we have a 27 year old franchise QB. 25 teams in the NFL don't have that luxury. I still want to surrond him with as many weapons as possible but if Suh leaves instead of drafting Melvin Gordon at #23 we may have to look at a DT or OL.
Suh is the most physically gifted defensive lineman I've ever seen and I said that when he was at Nebraska. That's why ESPN has an article titled "Suh biggest defensive free agent since Reggie White" and it's absolutely true. He will instantly turn your defense into a Top 15 whether at Jacksonville, Oakland or Miami.
With or without Suh we still have Matthew Stafford, Calvin Johnson, DeAndre Levy, Ziggy Ansah, Darius Slay, Golden Tate, Glover Quin, Larry Warford and plenty of solid young and veteran pieces. I want Suh to remain a Lion but if he doesn't we move on and use that money on Free Agency and add even more depth and talent through the draft.
BTW Mike Florio was just on 97.1 The Ticket and he said its down to Miami and Detroit the other teams are just "leverage". It's going to come down to $60 Million guaranteed and who can pay him more.
Restore the Roar.
I'll also gladly own the one hell of a group comment. Edelman, Lafell, Hartline, Amendola, Wayne is far more complete than they've had at the WR for years. Show me when it's been better for them? Last I can think is 07- Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Gafney. Stallworth started hot slowed down, but gafney was a reliable 4th. I'm not looking for an earth shattering group, I'm looking for guys who can catch the ball and learn the system. The pats offense had ups and downs this year, but once Lafell got going it took a big step, and it took it's largest step once DA got going.
Well to be fair to this I would likely take wayne over boyce given we could stash boyce on the Practice squad as we've done before. I also am not convinced DA would be back so I figured Hartline slot in for him and Wayne comes on over somebody like Tyms/Boyce.
You wanna talk infuriating though? When did I specifically say I wanted him cut? You keep coming back to this. Yes the guy has sucked, I don't think he has anything, but I'd gladly keep him if it's between him and say Ebner... That being said my initial post was not me saying get rid of him he's weighing us down! I simply said I don't see him lasting.
I've already posted a list of reasons why he has a good chance of being let go, I'm just going from past experience. I haven't seen anything in particular from him that I didn't see from some of those other receivers. on top of all of this I continue to mention the fact that the guy got called out as a diva and running his mouth. Bill denied these claims as he is one to do, but in these situations, generally where there is smoke there is fire. If he's a headache, what does he bring to the table?
edit- it's also asinine, because you compared Alshon and Reggie Wayne to Aaron Dobson. Reggie Wayne wasn't forced to play given their future hall of famer- Marvin Harrison (I don't know given the murder thing I'm talking about talent), Alshon also was in an established system that had Brandon Marshall who also is going to finish as a borderline HOF receiver. The patriots had nobody, therefore his stats are from a season in which he was forced to play. Want a more telling stat?
Alshon jeffrey drop rate- 2.1%
Aaron Dobson- 9.7%
Reggie Waynes drop rate was bad as well at 8.1%, but better than Dobsons, and he had even less snaps to get into a rhythm. Dobson improved a bit as the season went on despite still being exceedingly mediocre, because he had more time to learn the system. Was that enough of an improvement? Not really, so chalk it up to a bad rookie season. Throw out any of that skewed crap though, that rookie season was LOUSY.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
Stafford is 27?? Holy fuck. Surely he has at least 1 playoff win
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