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NFL WEEK 15 |OT| Everybody Stinks
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Don't forget our bet! 3 games left to decide it!
Futurevoid
Member
Amazing to see the decline he's gone through. He really should have just sat down after the first knee injury and not rushed his way back. Amazing route runner prior to all of the injuries. Sure handed as well. Couldn't get YAC to save his life though.squicken said:
Reese was amazingly lucky getting Cruz in that regard. He got the same route running ability with the added big play explosiveness that Smith lacked.
He also is tied for the league in dropped INTs, and their schedule is a joke. And he actually is still underrated.
The entirety of that offense goes through him. The only guys who run their offenses like that are Stafford, Brees, Brady, Peyton, and Rodgers. He's doing what Ben did in his 2nd SB season, only with a surrounding cast that are either rookies or went 2-14 last year
If Amendola could have stayed healthy they would have cut him. He's a 6th WRs who doesn't contribute on ST, but they have to have him just in case someone else gets hurt
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I don't care what anyone says, after that Dolphins game I was a believer. The dude can play.
We all know football is played on paper. Stats mean everything.
Futurevoid
Member
Of course he can. The standards of expectations for rookie QB's have simply been blown way out of proportion. If you're not putting up Cam/RGIII rookie stats then your overrated shit...The_Darkest_Red said:
The_Darkest_Red
Member
It's true. I'm honestly pretty happy with Tannehill's performance so far this year (although he has gotten worse in the second half of the season it seems) but when you stack him up against some of these other guys he looks like complete trash. I'll wait until he has some WRs around him before I jump to any major conclusions.
Exactly. And as the past 6 games have shown us, Tom Brady is infinitely more likely to score on a rushing TD than RGIII.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Haven't people been arguing that Luck's rookie season is better than RGIII's though?
Numbers don't really tell the story there. Five of those interceptions were a result of either a tipped ball (3 in the Arizona game) or Matt getting hit right as he let go.Bored at work so put together a little QB comparison table (stats over past 6 games):
Some observations:
1. Brady is just a beast...holy balls.
2. #WhoaCam
3. Luck's and Brees' stats are remarkably similar save for comp. %
4. Matt Ryan's played like shit for a while now...plies up yards and completions but is getting careless with the ball
What's really happened since the Bye week, really, is that the interior of the line has played noticeably worse. I'm seeing less 7 step drops (granted I missed the Carolina game) than we were getting earlier in the season.
Offensive line struggling is affecting everybody across the board.
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
You can make that argument I think since the team around Luck is way shittier, and that the offense fully goes through him. I don't think he's having a better year than RG3 or that he's better but I think he's been more impressive for the fact that he is doing it all.
yankeehater
Member
I have no idea who is having a better year, but Luck's team does have a better record with way less talents then the Redskins. RGIII has been great though, and is definitely the more explosive player. I would think if you asked most GMs who they would rather have Luck would win, but RGIII would get some votes to.
storybook77
Member
We can't run the ball for shit so they are just pinning their ears back.
Futurevoid
Member
Some, yes. RGIII is certainly having the better season but I mentioned in a previous debate with Tom Penny (I believe) that comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges in so far as the offenses they run. High risk deep passing offense vs Read/option play action. That DOES matter.DeaconKnowledge said:
I would say this should be a boon for our defensive line this Sunday except for the fact that we've shown no propensity for being able to stop the run outside of the Green Bay (they don't have a run game) and the Niners games (..and they were put into the position where they had to pass later in the game).storybook77 said:
New Orleans ran all over us until the game got out of hand and they were forced to pass.
A few weeks ago the argument could have been made, but Luck has had a few stinkers recently. People in Indy are worried he's taken too many hits this year and it's wearing on him. Whatever the reason his play has fallen off a bit.
Arians is a fool. Will not sacrifice his deep passing game and 5 out on every play to protect the rookie with some quick throws
yankeehater
Member
This is called the Mike Vick effect. He was so good in 2010, but once the hits started to pile up he was a totally different player. Some guys can take the pounding every week, like Big Ben, but most are going to wear down before the season is even over.
TheDrizzlerJ11
Member
Well, if anything, we have a propensity to play up or down to our opponents. I'll feel a lot better if William Moore is starting.
Futurevoid
Member
BBV has a nice film breakdown of David Wilson in pass protection. He was put in for maybe 4-5 pass plays but he picked up those assignments well. I have to look at the footage myself but I think Ed may be wrong in David not having to chip on at least one of those plays. Nonetheless, it's good evidence that the young man is progressing in that regard.
http://www.bigblueview.com/2012/12/12/3754214/blue-22-film-review-david-wilson-in-pass-protection
http://www.bigblueview.com/2012/12/12/3754214/blue-22-film-review-david-wilson-in-pass-protection
I don't think that the surrounding talent on either team is better than the other. The Redskins have one of the worst defenses in the entire league. And nobody can tell me that having Reggie Wayne is having "shitty" talent. RGIII was without Garcon for most of the season and Garcon is not Reggie Wayne.
Futurevoid
Member
He's damn near Larry Fitzgerald though.SonnyBoy said:
Sorry, squicken!
It happens to every QB, some faster than others. It's not like he's skittish and falling off his throws to avoid hits (Schaub) or isn't keeping his eyes downfield, but he not making good decisions. He's playing too fast, as Greg Cosell calls it
Futurevoid
Member
Cards update:
I'm curious to see how many times he and RGIII have been hit compared to other QB's. And then I'd like to see how many times they've been hit compared to other QB's in their rookie years. With time and wisdom, I expect them both to get rid of the ball faster and read defenses better which will allow them to take less hits.
However with RGIII, his amazing selling of the play fake at the "mesh point", leads to him getting pushed down a lot in the backfield. With a better defense, hopefully we can get some leads next year and he'll be able to put his hands up more quickly to avoid the hit.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
It does, though it doesn't seem to matter much to those people who are saying Luck is having the better season.
Luck's team does have a better record, however we are not comparing the Colts to the Redskins. We're comparing Luck to RGIII. It just seems that the decision was made that Luck was the best since college and damn the on field performance, he's better.
Don't get all upset, Redskin fan, but Wayne is 34. He's on the tail end of a great career. I'd take Garcon, who's just entering his prime at 26, over him in an instant. Plus, Washington can and will run the ball. I'd also take Washington's defense over Indy's. Maybe not in overall results, but the talent is greater.
yankeehater
Member
Luck has to be getting hit way more each game. The Skins run the ball so well and they pass a lot with playaction which freezes the rush a lot. RGIII is having a fantastic season and I think he will only improve, I am not trying to take anything away from him by saying Luck is having a great season as well when you consider everything.
So media guy definitely are going to push the guy that they favored originally so they can say how smart/right they were. I have no idea how to compare to QBs without comparing their teams. The offenses they run matters, as does the talent around them. RGIII is definitely putting up much better numbers this year though. No sane person can argue that.
He's damn near Larry Fitzgerald though.
[poiler]Sorry, squicken!
Why? I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. And I swear to God, Redskins fans, it's just dumb to shit all over Alfred Morris and a decent OL (and very good LT) to try and build some internet shrine to RG3. I'm not singling out SonnyBoy b/c all Skins fans do it, but your team beat the Giants twice last year with Rex Grossman. Your defense it definitely bad, but it's stabilizing. You can can definitely make the playoffs and even win a game. Flip on a Chiefs or Cards game to see what actual shitty players look like
And the Colts are getting good mileage out of their rookies on offense. They cannot run the ball, but they drafted heavily on skill position players. Luck is not w/o weapons, though Reggie Wayne is no longer a true #1 at this point. Still good, but there is noticable decline there
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Frankly i'd say that both of their teams are a wash. Both feature shit defenses, Luck's receivers are better overall, but Griffin has the btter Running game.
Futurevoid
Member
Yeah well I'm not going to account for the stupidity of others. Let me state clearly before I get into this that I feel RGIII is having the better season of the two.DeaconKnowledge said:
That having been said, if an argument is to be made that Luck is having the overall better season, then the type of offense he's running would be the #1 reason to support that theory. He's a traditional pocket passer being asked to read defenses at the line of scrimmage, make multiple reads and generally run a high flying passing based offense. It's should be to no ones surprise that his decision making is still a work in progress.
RGIII is running a HEAVY run based offense, plenty of read/option to open things up for Alfred Morris and in a many cases single read stuff off of play action (which is fucking effective as hell when LB'er/safeties bite on an extremely effective run game). That's not meant to discredit his achievements at all but if you're making the argument for Luck over RGIII.....
I was just giving you shit about it is all.squicken said:
TheLegendary
Member
Hey guys, remember when the Bears were 7-1?
Ok, I'll bite. Why do you think Luck is more impressive?
For the record, I think they both are impressive.
When did having a discussion become getting upset? You must have missed the part where I said that Garcon was missing a majority of the year. I'd take a 34 year old Reggie Wayne over Santana Moss, Aldrick Robinson, Hankerson and Josh Morgan any day.
I agree that our running game is good but without RGIII, it wouldn't be as effective. And... Indy's defense must be atrocious if you'd take it over ours.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Bite? He's running a more complicated offense and asked to make a lot more decisions. He's also the entire offense.
I love them both too. Just more impressed by what Luck is doing.
I was just giving you shit about it is all.
Cards' fans swear he is open and is just being missed, but the thing is, will they be able to do anything next year? Who is going to come in at QB next year and work things out?
And I'm not really trolling Fitz. I really like Garcon. He's so fast, and has great YAC. Peyton didn't love his route running, but that's not a giant drawback with what WAS is doing right now. There's so much empty space in opposing secondaries he just has to run to that area and let Griffin get it in there
I'm not taking anything away from Alfred because after him, there's a severe drop off. The offense wouldn't be as effective with Helu or Royster back there. However, the running game works because of RGIII. His accuracy and the threat of his running ability really puts the defense in a bad predicament. Plus his handoff's are really what sells it. They definitely compliment and work off of each other.
Out of curiosity, what makes him more impressive to you?
Fair enough. I do have to wonder how much Morris(who I think is the Redskins only other threat on offense besides RGIII benefits the threat of RGIII running the ball)
yankeehater
Member
Vick. People keep saying the Bills are the team most likely to sign him but I dont believe it. I think if Whiz is back, bringing in Vick is the clear coach desperate to save his job move.
That's totally fine. But from listening to Greg Cossell's podcast, the Redskins offense isn't as simplistic as many assume (not referring to you) and RGIII is being asked to do a lot, but it's just different than what Luck is being asked to do (traditional).
The question is, if the Colts had drafted RGIII, do you think that he could be successful at the "more difficult" offense?
I don't think Arians would have been as equipped to work with Friffins talents, no.
Also I think next year Griffin will have all the same responsibilities and will progress fantastically. They can win with him being tied down a bit, so why force him to do more.
Also I think next year Griffin will have all the same responsibilities and will progress fantastically. They can win with him being tied down a bit, so why force him to do more.
Vick behind that OL is asking for another date with the injury list.
yankeehater
Member
I really wonder if RGIII could take the pounding every game that Luck takes. The Colts OL is not good and they ask him to hold the ball for all these slow developing deep routes. As much as Mcnabb ran his mouth about the coaches in Washington not being able to coach a QB, they are doing a great job coming up with an offense that lets RGIII put up huge numbers without getting him killed.
Squall ASF
Member
You are now officially a joke poster.
As for the Luck and RGIII conversation, why is it so hard to see why some find Luck more impressive than RGIII? RGIII is a great athlete that's putting up good numbers, but that's it. Luck is literally generating wins for his team who has a better record and is coming off of the worst record in the league. When you watch him play, you appreciate the decision making, the command, and his presence. He just makes things happen, including in the clutch ala the Lions game. RGIII has been supplemented by a solid run game and decent OL, what does Luck really have to work with? Bottom feeders and raw youth. Wade is the only mentionable name. So while RGIII deserves plenty of praise and Redskin fans should be very happy they have him, there's no question to me that Luck is the better QB and I would choose him over RGIII in a heartbeat. God what I'd give to have a young QB that you just know will be a perennial winner and top talent sooner than later /cards problems
Edit: I don't mean to come off as RGIII isn't helping his team win games, they are certainly much better with him behind center. I just look at Luck succeeding under more perilous circumstances and just watching him play you can see what's there. RGIII I'm concerned with having a long career with his play style. I can very easily see him being injury prone through out it. I hope that's not the case.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
The Colts O-Line is bad now? Wasn't that always a strength of the Colts?
That's definitely true. Griffin makes the run game better. His ability to run makes it easier for him to throw, and that's not a drawback. That's part of the RG3 package and makes him special. The only problem I had with Griffin was his size. He's just not built to take the hits he does. He's already had a knee injury in college, and often was slow to get up vs Big 12 defenses.
Didn't you also say this when you were 4-0 and I told you your team would miss the playoffs?
Futurevoid
Member
You're severely underrating the work your offensive line does with that zone blocking scheme. The film from both Giants games in particular would and should jump out at you in that regard. The RGIII threat (and fakes) certainly opens things up and you can't discount that factor but a good number of those Morris runs were just downright dominant blocking from your line.SonnyBoy said:
Alfred Morris and your offensive line is the reason you beat the Giants in that second game. They downright dominated the Giants front 7.
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