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[RobotHaus]

So I have not been following this thread due to constantly forgetting about the community tab in the forum listing, but does anyone else think the NJ/Florida match up is the sleeper series we should be watching out for? I'm hearing almost no one talking about it save for the recaps of the matches. I suspect a surprise or two to come out of it or whoever wins it to make a bit of a splash next round.

That said, let's go Blues!

 

[snack]

We need to have a spot in downtown for Canucks-GAF to meet up tonight where we can get wasted once our season ends.

BAH-REEVE

 

[MetatronM]

Hook, line, and sinker

Come on, you know it was a joke. Everybody's suspension has been too minimal.

That said, somebody on TSN brought this up:

If Neal had 2 hearings (one for each blatant headhunt) and only got one game suspension, doesn't that mean one of the two headhunts was considered legal?

Basically, yes. If you watch Shanahan's explanation, they basically accept Neal's excuse for the Couturier hit and only do a breakdown of why Neal is being suspended for the hit on Giroux.

 

[Marvie_3]

Which is fine. I still don't think he's a great example. It took way too much. If we had to give the Matt Cooke treatment to every player who was going to get suspended it would genuinely hurt the game. We want the best players on the ice. Giving ridiculously long suspensions to NHL players is just gonna dilute the quality of players on the ice. Dirty hits are ALWAYS going to be in the game. They're the product of emotion, not some sinister intent to hurt the other team. You're never going to eliminate that. I get the rational behind the "longer suspensions" argument. I think I've made that pretty clear in the past. I dispute the accuracy of it.

This is nonsense.

What's going to dilute the game more, guys like Torres being out a month or guys like Crosby being out a month? People pay to see the Crosbys in the league. Nobody gives a fuck about garbage players like Torres. Keeping the top talent on the ice is better for the game. If much longer suspensions for the likes of Torres is what keeps them there then I'm all for it. If they don't respect the other players on the ice or the rules of the game then they don't deserve to be in the league.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

So I have not been following this thread due to constantly forgetting about the community tab in the forum listing, but does anyone else think the NJ/Florida match up is the sleeper series we should be watching out for? I'm hearing almost no one talking about it save for the recaps of the matches. I suspect a surprise or two to come out of it or whoever wins it to make a bit of a splash next round.

That said, let's go Blues!

Winner will lose in the next round.

Spoiler

Book it.

This is nonsense.

What's going to dilute the game more, guys like Torres being out a month or guys like Crosby being out a month? People pay to see the Crosbys in the league. Nobody gives a fuck about garbage players like Torres. Keeping the top talent on the ice is better for the game. If much longer suspensions for the likes of Torres is what keeps them there then I'm all for it. If they don't respect the other players on the ice or the rules of the game then they don't deserve to be in the league.

Bigger suspensions won't prevent the hits. The players are still gonna get injured. Star players are still gonna be out for extended periods with injuries. This doesn't address what I'm talking about.

 

[Marvie_3]

Bigger suspensions won't prevent the hits. The players are still gonna get injured. Star players are still gonna be out for extended periods with injuries. This doesn't address what I'm talking about.

Tell that to Marc Savard. He'd still be playing if Cooke had learned from his big suspension earlier.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Tell that to Marc Savard. He'd still be playing if Cooke had learned from his big suspension earlier.

I will. That's my point. Cooke didn't learn from suspensions. No one is going to. The best you can do is have refs do a better job of managing the game so emotions don't run so high. Especially during the regular season. Funnily enough I actually think this is where fighting can really help. After a fight players are more likely to accept that the matter is "settled" so you won't get the emotional plays where a guy runs at another because he's just generally pissed.

Just look at a guy like Mike Works, most of these people calling for suspensions are doing it for a sense of "revenge" against the other team. That's pointless. What matters is prevention.

 

[Fixed1979]

I will. That's my point. Cooke didn't learn from suspensions. No one is going to. The best you can do is have refs do a better job of managing the game so emotions don't run so high. Especially during the regular season. Funnily enough I actually think this is where fighting can really help. After a fight players are more likely to accept that the matter is "settled" so you won't get the emotional plays where a guy runs at another because he's just generally pissed.

Just look at a guy like Mike Works, most of these people calling for suspensions are doing it for a sense of "revenge" against the other team. That's pointless. What matters is prevention.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting as a solution...no suspensions and only have matters settled on the ice by fights and the refs? Why can't we have both?

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting as a solution...no suspensions and only have matters settled on the ice by fights and the refs? Why can't we have both?

I'm saying keep suspensions. They serve an important purpose of making organizations feel like the other team "got punished." But this nonsense about them needing to be so much longer doesn't make sense to me. However, I also don't think things are really worse than they've ever been. People like to over exaggerate and ignore things like underdiagnosis in the past in terms of concussions. Realistically I don't things will ever get significantly better without going over to a more European style entirely. If people want that, then fine. I don't, and I think a lot of others would agree that isn't desirable.

 

[ShaneB]

Massive suspensions are needed to start the process. Who knows how long Hossa could be done. If the Coyotes win the series, and Torres is only suspended a few games, what message does that send? You can demolish a star player and put him out for the year, but only get a couple games suspended? BS. The same goes for any of the other hits this season and postseason. If the Sens lost tonight and are eliminated because Alfie couldn't play, but Haglin is back in eventually, is that ok? I think it's obvious Torres gets the book thrown at him, but It's just the easiest analogy to make right now.

Prevention is obviously the root cause. Players realizing they need to make smarter choices on the ice, realizing you can kill someone with the pace of the game now. Finally realizing that you can say no to delivering a hit to an unsuspecting player. That the players are grown men and shouldn't act like children, looking for payback, eye for an eye bullshit.

It makes me angry, and sad.

Hockey can be a physical game, body contact is in the game, but players are turning into freight trains and destroying each other.

 

[bonesmccoy]

Actually, if players are being consistently fined and suspended (without pay) for long periods, we most definitely would see a reduction in these incidents. The problem now is that the risk-reward ratio leans heavily on the side of the aggressor.

It's odd that bwg advances this kind of argument, given that the league proved to everyone in the aftermath of the Moore/Bertuzzi incident that lengthy suspensions are effective.

 

[apocalidiot]

If longer suspensions are given out (to those who deserve them), shitheads like Torres will either stop making insanely dangerous hits in fear of getting sat for 10+ games, or continue to make them and be suspended for long periods of time. Its a win win.

If suspensions won't change Torres' behavior, that doesn't mean you don't throw the book at him every time. The longer he's off the ice after making a hit like that, the better

 

[fallout]

The only problem I have with reading any sort of comments on suspensions is that there's such an insane amount team bias that occurs. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with anyone until you figure out where they're coming from.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

Glad to hear the rumblings of at least 8. Add at least two more and I'll be ecstatic.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

The only problem I have with reading any sort of comments on suspensions is that there's such an insane amount team bias that occurs. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with anyone until you figure out where they're coming from.

Agree on this. Some of the stuff spouted on here is crazy.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Actually, if players are being consistently fined and suspended (without pay) for long periods, we most definitely would see a reduction in these incidents. The problem now is that the risk-reward ratio leans heavily on the side of the aggressor.

It's odd that bwg advances this kind of argument, given that the league proved to everyone in the aftermath of the Moore/Bertuzzi incident that lengthy suspensions are effective.

Bertuzzi wasn't a "dirty" player to begin with. That was an incident of trying to defend a teammate. And it's not like Bertuzzi came back as some sort of high skill player who cut borderline hits out of his game completely....

 

[Kave_Man]

I will. That's my point. Cooke didn't learn from suspensions. No one is going to. The best you can do is have refs do a better job of managing the game so emotions don't run so high. Especially during the regular season. Funnily enough I actually think this is where fighting can really help. After a fight players are more likely to accept that the matter is "settled" so you won't get the emotional plays where a guy runs at another because he's just generally pissed.

Just look at a guy like Mike Works, most of these people calling for suspensions are doing it for a sense of "revenge" against the other team. That's pointless. What matters is prevention.

How did Matt Cooke not learn from his suspension? He's pretty much the poster boy for a long suspension can make a difference:

2008-9 - PIM = 101
2009-10 - PIM = 106
2010-11 - PIM = 129
2011-12 - PIM = 44

His severe lack in PIM this year was directly in relation to his last suspension of 10 plus games and the entire first round of the playoffs. The message didn't seem to hit him before with his 2 or 4 game suspensions previous.

"I realize and understand, more so now than ever, that I need to change," Cooke said Monday night, according to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. "That's what I wanted my message to be."

"I'm fortunate that Ryan McDonagh wasn't hurt," Cooke said, according to the report. "I don't want to hurt anybody. That's not my intention. I know that I can be better.

"I made a mistake, and I'm the one who's accountable for that. And I take full responsibility for it."

 

[ShaneB]

Just have the players adopt kids. That's what changed Matt Cooke apparently, says he changed his games because he didn't want to be a goon player knowing wanted his kids to have someone better to look up to. So when a player delivers a dirty hit, give them another kid to adopt and they have to be a better role model.

 

[Fixed1979]

The only problem I have with reading any sort of comments on suspensions is that there's such an insane amount team bias that occurs. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with anyone until you figure out where they're coming from.

Burke was just saying the same thing.

You can't make people happy, so just do the job, and I think Brendan is doing that. It's impossible for fans to be rationale at this time of year. It's impossible for Detroit fans not to be outraged when Shea Weber wasn't suspended (for slamming Henrik Zetterberg's head into the glass). But I don't think he should have been.

He also says...

This is like people complaining about the rain at Woodstock...

SOURCE

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Burke was just saying the same thing.

I love Brian Burke.

 

[Cactus]

Burke was just saying the same thing.



If course he also says...

That's why all the people who think it'll all be better if Shanahan is fired are wrong. Everyone hated Colin Campbell and everyone will hate the next guy too.

These guys are harassed and influenced from all sides while they're deciding punishments, and they're attacked from all angles no matter what decision they make. Shanahan just has to do his job and ignore the whining and bitching, because it's never going away, no matter how well he does his job.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

That's why all the people who think it'll all be better if Shanahan is fired are wrong. Everyone hated Colin Campbell and everyone will hate the next guy too.

These guys are being harassed and influenced from all sides while they're deciding punishments, and they're attacked from all angles no matter what decision they make. Shanahan just has to do his job and ignore the whining and bitching, because it's never going away, no matter how well he does his job.

I will say I think he's been wildly inconsistent lately. Even moreso than Campbell.

 

[Revenant]

I will say I think he's been wildly inconsistent lately. Even moreso than Campbell.

I think this is really the issue. Recently it really feels like there is a "wheel of justice" sitting in Shanahan's room. But honestly once he started suspending players on our teams or suspending players for injuring players on our teams this was going to result in a lot of hate for Shanahan.

I didn't care for Campbell but he basically said the job is "damned if you do, damned if you don't" and that's fairly true.

 

[Cactus]

I will say I think he's been wildly inconsistent lately. Even moreso than Campbell.

I agree that he's been inconsistent at times, but he probably has to sift through mountains of crap for each individual player he decides to punish. It's probably tough to be consistent when each scenario requires different off-ice hurdles to jump through.


EDIT: I will say that "injury = harsher punishment" isn't necessarily a policy that I agree with, but I'm pretty sure that's been around for years.

didn't the PA bitch about his early suspension lengths as well?

Yeah. General Managers companied as well.

 

[Revenant]

didn't the PA bitch about his early suspension lengths as well?

 

[fallout]

That's why all the people who think it'll all be better if Shanahan is fired are wrong. Everyone hated Colin Campbell and everyone will hate the next guy too.

There are legitimate issues with how the suspensions are being applied, but I agree, it's not like putting in someone else is going to make a difference. As I recall, Shanahan's early heavy suspensions were met with criticism from the GMs and players, resulting in a more lenient approach. That said, I tried finding a source on that, but couldn't, so maybe I'm just misremembering.

I did find this article, where Colin Campbell predicts the inevitable turn of public perception on Shanahan.

 

[ShaneB]

Tim and Sid ripping into the league now for the antics on their radio show.

Raffi Torres suspended indefinitely apparently. Hearing n Friday.

 

[gcubed]

Tim and Sid ripping into the league now for the antics on their radio show.

Raffi Torres suspended indefinitely apparently. Hearing n Friday.

more stretchers for every hit! Soccer style baby!

 

[Fixed1979]

Tim and Sid ripping into the league now for the antics on their radio show.

Raffi Torres suspended indefinitely apparently. Hearing n Friday.

According to NHL, hearing would have been today but Torres and NHL Players' Association requested it be delayed until Friday.

Should be an interesting one...

 

[snack]

Canucks, step yo' game up.

IF YOU LOSE, MY LIVER IS GONNA LOSE TOO.

 

[ShaneB]

Should be an interesting one...

They're expecting chaos tonight, and just want to do it all in one shot tomorrow. That's the reason for the delay.

 

[Fixed1979]

Caps presser, standard fare.

We disagree with the NHL’s decision to suspend Nicklas Backstrom...we do not understand why a suspension was imposed in this case while other incidents...have not been reviewed

 

[fallout]

Raffi Torres suspended indefinitely apparently. Hearing n Friday.

Hey, if the panes of glass get it, Torres should too.

 

[snack]

Hey, if the panes of glass get it, Torres should too.

hahahahaha

 

[rellix]

Hoping Semin does something worthy of a suspension tomorrow so the Caps are 4/4 with the 'young guns' of old this season.

 

[Montresor]

Ferraro shut up. On TSN radio he's talking about how Torres's hit is illegal because "the puck was not there." No... He finished his check just like all the other millions of instances in which a player hits his opponent a second after the puck is passed. The hit is illegal because he left his feet and hit Hossa's head.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Ferraro shut up. On TSN radio he's talking about how Torres's hit is illegal because "the puck was not there." No... He finished his check just like every other million instances in which a player hits his opponent a second after the puck is passed. The hit is illegal because he left his feet and his Hossa's head.

I gotta look at it again, but relation to the play is certainly an important element....

 

[Revenant]

Ferraro shut up. On TSN radio he's talking about how Torres's hit is illegal because "the puck was not there." No... He finished his check just like all the other millions of instances in which a player hits his opponent a second after the puck is passed. The hit is illegal because he left his feet and his Hossa's head.

to be fair it "technically" is late.

Hit by Torres was .83 seconds late, hit by Rome was .87, supposedly over .5 seconds and the league deems it questionable according to McKenzie.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Ferraro shut up. On TSN radio he's talking about how Torres's hit is illegal because "the puck was not there." No... He finished his check just like all the other millions of instances in which a player hits his opponent a second after the puck is passed. The hit is illegal because he left his feet and hit Hossa's head.

I agree with this besides the hostility. Everyone is finishing their checks in the playoffs. Its illegal because he jumped and hit his head. If he would have just ran into him, his shoulder would have hit his opponent's body/shoulder.

I'm expecting 3-5 games unless they really want to make an example. Then again, I've not paid attention around the league during the regular season, so I'm just going with my gut feeling.

 

[Marvie_3]

Actually, if players are being consistently fined and suspended (without pay) for long periods, we most definitely would see a reduction in these incidents. The problem now is that the risk-reward ratio leans heavily on the side of the aggressor.

This is exactly right. If speeding tickets were only a $5 fine, I'd speed everywhere. The fact that the punishment for speeding tickets is way more than I'm willing to pay keeps me from speeding. The same threat of heavy punishment needs to exist in the NHL.

Bruce is correct when he says dirty hits are always going to be part of the game no matter how long suspensions are, but he's wrong in saying heavier punishments won't have an effect.

There are legitimate issues with how the suspensions are being applied, but I agree, it's not like putting in someone else is going to make a difference. As I recall, Shanahan's early heavy suspensions were met with criticism from the GMs and players, resulting in a more lenient approach. That said, I tried finding a source on that, but couldn't, so maybe I'm just misremembering.

I did find this article, where Colin Campbell predicts the inevitable turn of public perception on Shanahan.

This is why I've said the NHL needs to have an outside body handling discipline. Campbell/Shanahan/whoever else is next can't do their job properly with all their connections to the game and meddling from the league/union.

Canucks, step yo' game up.

IF YOU LOSE, MY LIVER IS GONNA LOSE TOO.

Buy extra livers and keep them in the fridge like I do.

 

[Unhandled Exception]

No fucking way, they're actually going to do something about Torres? I'm shocked.

 

[Marvie_3]

No fucking way, they're actually going to do something about Torres? I'm shocked.

Considering how many times he's been suspended in the past, they don't really have a choice.

 

[Canuck76]

I will say I think he's been wildly inconsistent lately. Even moreso than Campbell.

Could part of this just be that it's one guy? Maybe if they had three guys or a commitee that would come together, make some hard and fast rules about what's illegal and what's not, and then review the gray stuff.

It seems to me like this type of stuff will only get better. It has to if the NHL wants the sport to grow. Parents and families need to see consistency in what type of hits are illegal, and what the punishments are or they won't let their kids play

 

[Curufinwe]

I will. That's my point. Cooke didn't learn from suspensions.

Yes, he fucking did which is why he hasn't been involved in any of the dirty play in this series, or in anything dirty since he got hit with a 17 game hammer. Quit ignoring the facts because they don't support your bizarre opinions.

 

[Marvie_3]

Could part of this just be that it's one guy? Maybe if they had three guys or a commitee that would come together, make some hard and fast rules about what's illegal and what's not, and then review the gray stuff.

It seems to me like this type of stuff will only get better. It has to if the NHL wants the sport to grow. Parents and families need to see consistency in what type of hits are illegal, and what the punishments are or they won't let their kids play

Technically they already have a "disciplinary committee". Shanahan is the head of it. Doesn't really do any good.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Yes, he fucking did which is why he hasn't been involved in any of the dirty play in this series, or in anything dirty since he got hit with a 17 game hammer. Quit ignoring the facts because they don't support your bizarre opinions.

Ok, cuz it was obviously the suspensions. He was suspended multiple times and never changed, but sure it was the suspensions. Plenty of players have received long suspensions and were still dirty players.

Also, regardless of whether it works or not I don't want Duncan Keith getting 15-20 games for his first offense just because we're trying to teach players something they'll already know. It's all well and good when it's a crappy player, but I don't want the stars out for shit like this and they make these hits too.

 

[Canuck76]

Technically they already have a "disciplinary committee". Shanahan is the head of it. Doesn't really do any good.

Hmmmm. But it seems to me like part of the problem is not very clear rules? Or they're not enforcing those rules?

 

[Marvie_3]

Ok, cuz it was obviously the suspensions. He was suspended multiple times and never changed, but sure it was the suspensions. Plenty of players have received long suspensions and were still dirty players.

Such as?

Also, regardless of whether it works or not I don't want Duncan Keith getting 15-20 games for his first offense just because we're trying to teach players something they'll already know. It's all well and good when it's a crappy player, but I don't want the stars out for shit like this and they make these hits too.

Star players miss more time due to dirty hits than they do suspensions.

Hmmmm. But it seems to me like part of the problem is not very clear rules? Or they're not enforcing those rules?

Some of both. The wildly inconsistent and light penalties are the biggest problems though.

 

[KernelPanic]

Way too much hypocrisy in the NHL for things to change anytime soon.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Star players miss more time due to dirty hits than they do suspensions.

What percentage of injuries would you say come from dirty hits?