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NHL March 2016 |OT| It's not tanking, it's losing with style

Foggy

Member
I would disagree things have changed very little in Obama's tenure. We are a fundamentally different country than when he took office. I think people forget how disastrous Bush was and how much equity he pissed away in 8 years. Obama's term has largely rebounded from the deficit that Bush left us. To me building on his foundation is what is reassuring rather than a candidate who I don't think can properly engage the GOP on all fronts for the election. The Senate is in play, and a potential electorate shift with Trump as as the GOP nominee. For me winning this election means more than a idealist who isn't putting up numbers similar to Obama.

As far as foreign policy goes we are in an age with Russia and China are exhibiting expansionist tendencies and Syria being a failed state for at least a decade threatening not only regional stability in the ME, but also Europe. The EU has proven itself to be largely useless dealing with crisis. Turning the US to an isolationist state is not in our best interests with the world economy still linked to ours. We need a better and proactive foreign policy. We need to be smarter than half assed interventions where support is pulled after the shooting conflict ends. The Iranian deal is a good start, we need to be more involved not less.

I'm probably mostly just bitter that I feel it hasn't changed enough when it could have. His presidency hasn't been a disaster but it has been hamstrung by any number of influences. I can only hold so much admiration for a guy who's shedding a tear for gun deaths and has done so so little. His reluctance was frustratingly political.

I'll certainly be fine with Hillary but I'm not exactly joyous over it. Anything is better than the alternative.
 

Curufinwe

Member
I'm probably mostly just bitter that I feel it hasn't changed enough when it could have. His presidency hasn't been a disaster but it has been hamstrung by any number of influences. I can only hold so much admiration for a guy who's shedding a tear for gun deaths and has done so so little. His reluctance was frustratingly political.

I'll certainly be fine with Hillary but I'm not exactly joyous over it. Anything is better than the alternative.

You can't fix the gun problem in America with a Republican controlled Congress and a conservative majority on the Supreme Court.
 

calder

Member
Custance:

GMs open to limiting No. 1 overall picks


On the night the Edmonton Oilers won the 2015 draft lottery, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and small group of club representatives, league personnel, accountants and a pool reporter were gathered in a sealed off, sequestered room in the Sportsnet offices in Toronto. To prove it wasn’t rigged in any way, Bettman held up a fresh copy of the Globe and Mail newspaper, reading the date as a way to timestamp the moment. As it would turn out, it was completely unnecessary, because nobody would accuse the league of rigging what ultimately happened.

It was the first year of a two-year draft lottery transition that lowered the odds for the worst teams to win the lottery.

“We are here to determine the order of the first 14 selections of the 2015 NHL draft, using a weighted lottery system to eliminate any perception that clubs had any incentive to play less than their best during the regular season,” Bettman announced.

The Sabres were the favorites, but had just a 20 percent chance of landing the No. 1 pick and Connor McDavid. Edmonton had just an 11.5 percent chance. Four lottery balls were sucked out of the lottery machine and there was a brief pause as those in the room checked to see which team owned those four numbers and would be picking first.

“Which team has that combination?” Bettman asked.

“Edmonton,” came the answer.

“The Edmonton Oilers have that combination and have won the draft lottery,” Bettman announced.

No smile. No congratulations. And perhaps that’s how the NHL’s commissioner has to respond. Can’t show favoritism.

But any fun of having this moment recorded was gone.

The envelopes for the public presentation started being packed. There was a reminder that everyone had to stay in the room. The video, later released, ends a bit awkwardly.

“And you can now stop recording,” Bettman says to the camera.

Last year’s draft marked the fourth time in six years that Edmonton won the No. 1 overall pick. And while we got to see a few reactions to the lottery win as it was unveiled, it’s probably a good thing the rest of the league’s general managers weren’t being taped as the announcement became public.

This is the second year of the draft lottery changes, and they’re even more spread out than last year.

This year, the lottery will be used to assign the top three spots, not just No. 1 overall. There will be three draws instead of just one, with the possibility that the league’s worst team could end up drafting fourth overall.

General managers will be watching the results closely, because there’s still some dissatisfaction right now with the current process and the motivation to tear down rosters to improve draft chances.

“No other business rewards people for being [bad] on purpose,” said one GM.

On Tuesday, we polled 12 NHL GMs to get the sense as to whether or not they wanted more dramatic change to the lottery system than the ones that have been implemented.

And for the most part, the transition to the current system has placated a majority. Seven of the 12 NHL general managers said they didn’t want to see any changes made, preferring to see how the current system plays out this spring before weighing in.

“I think we need to give it a few years to see the effect and how many in the bottom three pick in the top three,” said a Western Conference GM. “We need to give this a chance.”

This is typically how it goes when changes are made, as it should. The changes are put in place and given an opportunity to play out.

According to one NHL source, the chances of any draft lottery changes coming out of next week’s GM meetings are small.

But if there is a change to be made, it would be at the very top.

This new system was put into place before Edmonton won another draft lottery, and the frustration that a team can monopolize the top of the draft so frequently remains high.

There’s an undercurrent of general managers who’d like to see limitations put on how many times a team can pick first overall. If the Oilers land the No. 1 pick again, that undercurrent may become a tidal wave.

“The common theme among the guys I talk to is that what has happened where you get the top pick multiple years in a row is the issue nobody is happy with,” said a Western Conference GM. “I am sure it will be a continued topic of discussion after the first time through with the changes that have already been made.”

Limiting the number of times a team can pick first appealed to GMs who seemed otherwise content letting the current system play itself out.

The bigger debate may ultimately center around how many years would have to go between first overall picks if limitations are put into place. One GM suggested a system where teams that select first overall or in the top three two years in a row would automatically be slotted outside the top five in the next draft.

“Something of that nature, I believe, creates the fairest landscape and does not allow teams to profit continually for on-ice failure,” he said.

Another suggestion was even more extreme. If a team picks first, it can pick no higher than fifth the following year. This GM also suggested that teams should be limited to just one No. 1 overall pick every five years.

“We cannot reward futility,” he said.

There were other suggestions to improve the draft lottery, including a surprising number of respondents who wanted every non-playoff team to have exactly equal odds of picking first.

There’s a group of GMs who want the 14 non-playoff teams thrown into a pool, and the lottery draft order randomly picked from those teams with exactly the same odds.

“Then you can’t tank,” said an Eastern Conference GM.


“I would rather reward teams trying to make the playoffs that miss by one point than teams that are not even trying to win games,” said another GM.

It’s fun in theory, but a long shot.

The way these things typically play out is the current lottery adjustments will be given an opportunity to take root and then be examined closely.

But if the Oilers win the lottery again this spring, get ready for another change.
 

Foggy

Member
I understand the reasons. To me, all it says is that he cares enough about it to speak soberly on a podium. Someone has to try. I'm tired of kowtowing to gridlock.

Edit: this stuff puts me in a rotten mood so I'll leave it be.

That said, no way would I want an even lottery. Just exempt multiple winners in a given timespan.
 

imBask

Banned
there's no real reason to limit 1st picks. Oilers are an anomaly, the people in charge should've been fired a long time ago, that's the real problem
 

Cake Boss

Banned
there's no real reason to limit 1st picks. Oilers are an anomaly, the people in charge should've been fired a long time ago, that's the real problem

Yes there is, teams are now tanking on purpose to get that pick and not even trying to hide it anymore. Last year it was Buffalo and Arizona, this year its Toronto.
 

imBask

Banned
Yes there is, teams are now tanking on purpose to get that pick and not even trying to hide it anymore. Last year it was Buffalo and Arizona, this year its Toronto.

yeah but limiting the picks won't change that, teams who are out of the playoffs early will still tank to get the highest pick...

maybe you're right though, maybe it would be an incentive for teams to rebuild for real instead of waiting for the 1st pick. I just feel like we're trying to find a solution to stop the Oilers because they're frustrating and they're ruining the fun for everyone, but it's not the right solution for that specific case. Some teams take their fans for granted and they should, it's sold out every game so why even bother
 

Quick

Banned
I wouldn't be opposed to a rule that would push a team out of the top 3 or 4 if they've been winning the first overall selection for a few years in a row, and keeping them out for a year or two.

But, as Imbask put it, the Oilers are an anomaly to the process. I don't see this rule being used often, if at all, if implemented.

This is provided that the Oilers get their shit together finally, and they seem to be putting some effort into it. :lol

Yes there is, teams are now tanking on purpose to get that pick and not even trying to hide it anymore. Last year it was Buffalo and Arizona, this year its Toronto.

I think the major difference between the Oilers and the Sabres, Yotes and Leafs is that their management isn't as incompetent as Edmonton's. I mean, the Leafs had Nonis last year, but at least the team is making an effort by trying to turn things around.

Oilers have just been recycling their front office with a rotation of former players. Who thought it would be a good idea to have MacTavish as GM when he failed as a coach? :lol

At least Chiarelli's legit.
 

Red_Man

I Was There! Official L Receiver 2/12/2016
What a fall of for Tinordi. He was suppose to be the chosen one :(

Ohhhhhhh now it all makes sense


You did the right thing Bergevin
Thinking Bergevin traded him knowing that is stupid, that's beyond slimy and no GM would ever deal with him again.
 

Chris R

Member
Toronto isn't tanking, they are rebuilding. Big difference, because Toronto will be scary in 3-4 years and the Oilers will still be the Oilers.
 

Cake Boss

Banned
One idea that I have heard to stop teams deliberately from tanking was from TSN radio. The idea is to take the bottom teams in the standings in the final couple of games or weeks and determine which team gets the best picks by how well they play and win in those last few weeks of the season. That way some of them actually try and win games instead of trading off players, sending NHL talent to the AHL and sending them to IR and other shady shit that Lou has done so far.
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
One idea that I have heard to stop teams deliberately from tanking was from TSN radio. The idea is to take the bottom teams in the standings in the final couple of games or weeks and determine which team gets the best picks by how well they play and win in those last few weeks of the season. That way some of them actually try and win games instead of trading off players, sending NHL talent to the AHL and sending them to IR and other shady shit that Lou has done so far.

The loser playoffs.
 

fallout

Member
There’s a group of GMs who want the 14 non-playoff teams thrown into a pool, and the lottery draft order randomly picked from those teams with exactly the same odds.
I know it's probably not the popular idea, but I've always been in favour of this implementation. In fact, when they announced the draft lottery, I actually that that it would be this (or some form of it). The idea that the worst a last place team could do was 2nd overall pick didn't really do anything in my mind to prevent tanking.

... I mean uuuhhhhh ... #HonourTank!
 
Coyotes now own the third worst goal differential, but only the 5th worst point total.

Pretty confident that we can get right there next to Toronto for the championship of shit by the end of the season.

BELIEVE.

One idea that I have heard to stop teams deliberately from tanking was from TSN radio. The idea is to take the bottom teams in the standings in the final couple of games or weeks and determine which team gets the best picks by how well they play and win in those last few weeks of the season. That way some of them actually try and win games instead of trading off players, sending NHL talent to the AHL and sending them to IR and other shady shit that Lou has done so far.

So then the better teams, or the ones actually tanking, get the benefit of a high pick while the actual shitty teams, who couldn't win even if they tried, don't.

Yeah, not sure the idiots on the radio thought this one through...

Didn't take long for the meth to get to him out there in the desert

It's everywhere.

HA, no way. Thanks for the trade Cosmic!

For what? Everyone in that trade was shit. What difference does any of it make.
 

Yawnier

Banned
Toronto isn't tanking, they are rebuilding. Big difference, because Toronto will be scary in 3-4 years and the Oilers will still be the Oilers.

The way I've seen this season is that the leafs are rebuilding AND tanking ;)

As important as that top 5 pick will be for the leafs, they have like a dozen picks outside of that top 5 pick this year and they gotta hit on a couple of the later ones for sure.
 

Merguson

Banned
I think the line between tanking and rebuilding is kind of non-existent.

I mean, if you consider rebuilding to be stripping the team of older talent that likely won't help you years down the road, then you're bound to find yourself at the bottom of the league quite fast.

This whole tanking discussion only exists because of the Edmonton Oilers.
 
This whole tanking discussion only exists because of the Edmonton Oilers.

Funny part is there's no real incentive for the Oilers to get better. This year they're at 100% home attendance capacity. Probably makes no difference at all to revenues if they win or lose.
 

Kave_Man

come in my shame circle
There's only one thing I think we can all agree on.

The only honourable tank out there is by the Winnipeg Jets.

That's the blueprint.
 

imBask

Banned
There's only one thing I think we can all agree on.

The only honourable tank out there is by the Winnipeg Jets.

That's the blueprint.

nah dawg, I can honestly say Leafs are killing it right now

i'd be willing to bet it won't lead to anything good, but still, I love me a good Leafs drama
 

Solo

Member
Leafs will finish dead last and be awarded 4th overall pick. Mass suicides will ensue when the Oilers get the #1 pick.

Habs will go off the board and draft 5'4" centre Denis LeFrench at 9th overall.
 

Red_Man

I Was There! Official L Receiver 2/12/2016
AGally only 1 goal behind Toews and Tavares among NHL centers

PEMx7Ia.png


Worst part is I'm still not convinced Therrien will keep him there once Davey the wonder boy returns.
 

calder

Member
I know it's probably not the popular idea, but I've always been in favour of this implementation. In fact, when they announced the draft lottery, I actually that that it would be this (or some form of it). The idea that the worst a last place team could do was 2nd overall pick didn't really do anything in my mind to prevent tanking.

... I mean uuuhhhhh ... #HonourTank!

It has a lot of logic to it, but I certainly see how emotionally it would be a tough sell. God knows last year imagining the Kings had won the lottery and gotten McDavid... that would have been almost as outrageous as the Oilers winning.

Really, I'm kind of coming around to the Travis Yost idea of abolishing the draft entirely. The draft in pro sports exists, 95%, in order to limit the earning power of young players.

There's only one thing I think we can all agree on.

The only honourable tank out there is by the Winnipeg Jets.

That's the blueprint.

Well yeah, did you see on the weekend when Scheifele hit the crossbar with seconds remaining and the Jets went down in the most noble of regulation defeats? So much honour there, left a tear in my eye as I saluted the TV with one hand while frantically refreshing the NHL Lottery Simulator on my iPad with the other.
 

Kave_Man

come in my shame circle
Funny part is there's no real incentive for the Oilers to get better. This year they're at 100% home attendance capacity. Probably makes no difference at all to revenues if they win or lose.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine when people say that. I can't think of many businesses that see where they can get even more guaranteed revenue and think "naah we're good with this".

I'd figure in any sport the bare minimum any team would want is just to be good enough to make the playoffs to get that revenue flowing.

Now if you want to say the front offices of these bottom feeder teams are all just idiots that's a different story.

nah dawg, I can honestly say Leafs are killing it right now

i'd be willing to bet it won't lead to anything good, but still, I love me a good Leafs drama

Your's is the hate that sustains me. <3
 
Leafs will finish dead last and be awarded 4th overall pick. Mass suicides will ensue when the Oilers get the #1 pick.

Habs will go off the board and draft 5'4" centre Denis LeFrench at 9th overall.

I just did one of those 'laughing into crying' transitions.
 

imBask

Banned
AGally only 1 goal behind Toews and Tavares among NHL centers

PEMx7Ia.png


Worst part is I'm still not convinced Therrien will keep him there once Davey the wonder boy returns.

Davey boy will be our #1 center in october, with Therrien in charge, you know that right?
 

Kave_Man

come in my shame circle
Just did the draft lottery 10 times cause y'all got me hype:

1st pick went to the honourable Jets four times.

Follow by the Coyotes twice and with two 3rd pick selections as well.

Next was the Flames with two first picks and two 3rd picks

And our beloved Leafs, only got the top pick 1 time, second pick twice and third pick three times.

I don't know if I'm ready for this.
 
Just did the draft lottery 10 times cause y'all got me hype:

1st pick went to the honourable Jets four times.

Follow by the Coyotes twice and with two 3rd pick selections as well.

Next was the Flames with two first picks and two 3rd picks

And our beloved Leafs, only got the top pick 1 time, second pick twice and third pick three times.

I don't know if I'm ready for this.

We're picking 4th. Expect it, embrace it, let it run away with you.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
I say just use a descending cap.

Win first overall, can't draft 1st/2nd/3rd next year, 1st and 2nd the year after and 1st the year after that.

Win second overall, you can't draft 1st and 2nd the next year and you can't draft 1st the year after

Win third and you're just locked out of first the next year

That seems fair to me
 

Socreges

Banned
I understand the reasons. To me, all it says is that he cares enough about it to speak soberly on a podium. Someone has to try. I'm tired of kowtowing to gridlock.

Edit: this stuff puts me in a rotten mood so I'll leave it be.

That said, no way would I want an even lottery. Just exempt multiple winners in a given timespan.
Him speaking at the podium is his effort to win hearts and minds. That has little to do with the actual machinations of government and the obstacles he faces.

The guy has accomplished some pretty transformative things while facing the most obfuscatory, uncooperative Congress in decades. With gun control I wouldn't wager his lack of success is for lack of effort.

I think the line between tanking and rebuilding is kind of non-existent.

I mean, if you consider rebuilding to be stripping the team of older talent that likely won't help you years down the road, then you're bound to find yourself at the bottom of the league quite fast.

This whole tanking discussion only exists because of the Edmonton Oilers.
Nah. You can rebuild without getting rid of anything past nearing its expiration date. The Leafs are rebuilding through the tank.
 
Well playoff revenues would help

Sure. But how much would you have to commit to spending in order to get to the playoffs? Now calculate the probability of getting to the playoffs against that guaranteed increase in spend and the increase of revenue.

Simple risk adjusted return calculation. Sometimes it's better to not invest and take a more guaranteed return.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine when people say that. I can't think of many businesses that see where they can get even more guaranteed revenue and think "naah we're good with this".

Making the playoffs is not guaranteed even though a team might spend more to get there.

yeah i'm no accountant but i'm sur there's some risk/reward percentage to check there, if the stands are full every game, is it worth the extra money to make the playoffs considering they're not guaranteed? etc etc

The Chicago Cubs followed this strategy for decades and decades. Hell, more than half a century.
 

imBask

Banned
Making the playoffs is not guaranteed even though a team might spend more to get there.

yeah i'm no accountant but i'm sur there's some risk/reward percentage to check there, if the stands are full every game, is it worth the extra money to make the playoffs considering they're not guaranteed? etc etc
 

calder

Member
Just did the draft lottery 10 times cause y'all got me hype:

1st pick went to the honourable Jets four times.

Follow by the Coyotes twice and with two 3rd pick selections as well.

Next was the Flames with two first picks and two 3rd picks

And our beloved Leafs, only got the top pick 1 time, second pick twice and third pick three times.

I don't know if I'm ready for this.

With all the Canadian teams being in the lottery and, likely, 4 of them having good odds at the top 3 the night of the lottery is going to be fucking tense for NHL-GAF.

I'd say if the Oilers won the lottery I'd do something outrageous and get banned but since there are no Oilers fans I'm not sure how I would manage that.



Meh I just did the Sim for the first time today and it went Vancouver-Toronto-Calgary, a fairly unappealing result for me. The worst result for any fan of a shitty team of course is 3 teams above you in the standings winning, that would hurt.
 

ShaneB

Member
Fiancee asked me last night a bunch of survey questions she found on facebook, trying to see how cute I'd get. One of the questions was "What would you do if you got $1000 right now?"

Me: "Take you on a trip to Florida for a weekend."
Her: "Oh wow that's so cute."
Me: "And get tickets to Panthers and Lightning games."
Her: "So you only want to go to Florida to watch hockey?"
Me: "Well it's going to be warmer there than it is here, might as well watch hockey while we're down there."

Can't win 'em all fellas.

Watching hockey in Florida? What a bizarre concept, go play some golf!
 
So the Coyotes getting the #1 pick would be, obviously, an incredible thing.

With the Tempe facility deal looking more and more likely, getting a home grown potential superstar who grew up watching the franchise, ready to debut in a new Arena in the East Valley just when Doan is retiring would be an absolute dream scenario. And while it sure wouldn't have the impact of Gretzky landing in Hollywood, it'd be the closest thing to that the desert would ever see.
 

zroid

Banned
Sparks, Reimer, and Bernier have all faced the Oilers this year

Sparks -- shutout
Reimer -- shutout
Bernier -- lit up
 
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