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[Chittagong]

The media format of Nintendo DS has been visited once in a while, yet I don't have a very clear understanding of it. In the other thread there somebody mentioned that the media is now so cheap that they can do demos - like with Metroid apparently. And Nintendo brags in the latest press release how good the format is.

So

1. What's the max. size of a NDS game card? (in MB, not Megabits)
2. What's the size of a demo then?
3. What's the closest media format to it? SD card?
4. How much more expensive it's to manufacture when compared to UMD?
5. Can NDS also store on the media or is it read-only?

 

[Deg]

ROM 128 MB according to the conference.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

128 MB is the smallest size. It's going to get big fast.

I imagine within a year or two we'll see almost (at least 512MB) CD-sized cards available and on the cheap.

 

[Chittagong]

ROM 128 MB according to the conference.

Thanks. I got confused in Nintendo's way of expressing it, rememberedt that they said a gig. So I guess this wraps up the rumor of downloadable demos then, if the media is read-only.

 

[Speevy]

So can a late N64 game (biggest) be ported to the system?

 

[WarPig]

Yeah, it is a gig -- a gigabit. Bit's one-eighth of a byte, so a gigabit is 128 megabytes.

DFS.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Er, the smallest DS card size (128MB) is twice the size of both the largest N64 game (RE2) and AGB (Pokemon), which were 64MB.

We aren't going to have a space problem with the DS. Sizes are going to jump. Quickly.

 

[Gorgie]

A 60 fps Goldeneye with the bottom screen used as a mouse pad, and the top screen displaying your view would be killer.

 

[Chittagong]

How the hell did they use 64MB for an AGB Pokemon game?? Did they put in an episode of the cartoon? With that graphic style and 8bit sound, can't figure it out.

So, it's proprietary, but what's the closest? MMC? SD?

 

[Dragona Akehi]

It has 384 pokemon plus the game data, plus animations for over 200 moves.


I'm guessing SD is closest. It looks like it.

 

[Miburou]

Wow, that's impressive. How did they get it so cheap?

 

[cvxfreak]

I thought RE264 was on a 512MB cartridge. Ah well, I probably heard it wrong.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Matrix 3D chips. New technology that Nintendo invested some time ago.

RE2 was 512 MegaBits and 64 MegaBytes.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

It has 384 pokemon plus the game data, plus animations for over 200 moves.

That still seems like a crazy high amount, considering how much stuff there was in SNES games of 3-6 MB.

 

[StrikerObi]

The media format of Nintendo DS has been visited once in a while, yet I don't have a very clear understanding of it. In the other thread there somebody mentioned that the media is now so cheap that they can do demos - like with Metroid apparently. And Nintendo brags in the latest press release how good the format is.

So

1. What's the max. size of a NDS game card? (in MB, not Megabits)

Nintnedo has said they will eventually reach "over one Gigabit" which is however many MB that is, I'm not sure. I guess 128 because that's what everyone else has said.

2. What's the size of a demo then?

I'd guess it's on the smallest size possible, 256Mb I believe.

3. What's the closest media format to it? SD card?

Standard Game Carts would be closest. It's the same thing, except the semiconductors are manufactured with a new three dimensional layering technique. This allows them to get a ton more space per wafer, drastically increasing space and at the same time lowering cost.

4. How much more expensive it's to manufacture when compared to UMD?

I don't know, but I'd wager it's really fucking cheap to manufacture, so probably comprable to UMD costs.

5. Can NDS also store on the media or is it read-only?

It's semiconductor media, and Nintendo hasn't mentioned anything about memory cards, so I'm assuming you can write to it as well.

 

[aoi tsuki]

Wow, that's impressive. How did they get it so cheap?

It gets technical, but Matrix Semiconductor (who produces the chips) lays it out on their site:

http://www.matrixsemi.com/technology/index.html
http://www.matrixsemi.com/technology/technology-faq.html

 

[snapty00]

I know that Nintendo (i.e., Reggie) said "128 MB and beyond" at its conference in May, but I certainly don't believe that he meant that was the minimum size.

Originally, the Japanese spec sheet said that 128 MB was the maximum size. But it is possible to go "beyond" that with bank switching, just like was done with the NES, Super NES, and practically every other ROM-based system in existence. In reality, you can pack as much ROM space into a cartridge as you can afford, and you'll divide it into smaller chunks that the system can recognize and use.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Striker: I was under the impression that the starting size was 128MB/1 gigabit. Have they changed that during the press conference?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I thought RE264 was on a 512MB cartridge. Ah well, I probably heard it wrong.

512 megabits = 64 megabytes

 

[Crazymoogle]

The media format of Nintendo DS has been visited once in a while, yet I don't have a very clear understanding of it.

Because most of the real info you're looking for is covered by NDAs.

1. Max Size depends on the memory controller, but a good guess would probably be 2GB. The technology is new enough that I imagine it will have a long rampup, so everything will probably be 128MB for now.

2. A demo varies in size but is usually 25%-50% of the cart size.

3. The 3D-ROM technology is fairly unique in that nobody else is really doing cell stacking, but given that Matrix Semi just got 3DR registered as electrically MMC compatible, there's your answer.

4. That would require knowing many NDAs. All that can really be said is 3DR is much cheaper than standard ROM.

5. Read Only.

 

[Chittagong]

Did some searching, it seems that 128MB is the max size:

The Nintendo DS will sport dual processors and up to one gigabit of semiconductor memory.

http://www.gaming-age.com/news/2004/1/20-53

hmm, SD RAM is damn expensive, I wonder how ROM is..

 

[StrikerObi]

Striker: I was under the impression that the starting size was 128MB/1 gigabit. Have they changed that during the press conference?

I'm almost positive they've always said it'll reach 1Gb in the future. The smallest games are going to be as big as the largest GBA games, which is 256Mb (or maybe 512Mb if you cound Kingdom Hearts: CoM which is that large).

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Pokemon was 64MegaBytes I understood. I'm probably wrong looking back now, but I'm sure that someone mentioned it was the same size as RE2 64, as it was now using the largest GBA cart size.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Since it's not like I'm insider on this or anything:

I'd guess it's on the smallest size possible, 256Mb I believe.

Has Nintendo revealed the actual size types? I was kind of skeptical about 128MB being the starter size.

It's semiconductor media, and Nintendo hasn't mentioned anything about memory cards, so I'm assuming you can write to it as well.

I wouldn't be too sure about that yet; fitting SRAM on one of those babies shouldn't be very difficult, and all of the cart info I've seen leans towards read only...

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Well I am probably wrong. I just remember reading it, or perhaps I misheard it. It's been a long night.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Pokemon was 64MegaBytes I understood. I'm probably wrong looking back now, but I'm sure that someone mentioned it was the same size as RE2 64, as it was now using the largest GBA cart size.

Which Pokemon is that? R/S and Lg/Fr are 16MB carts.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Alright I'm officially crazy. Someone shoot me now.

 

[StrikerObi]

Since it's not like I'm insider on this or anything:



Has Nintendo revealed the actual size types? I was kind of skeptical about 128MB being the starter size.

They said something about it relative to the size of large GBA games.

I wouldn't be too sure about that yet; fitting SRAM on one of those babies shouldn't be very difficult, and all of the cart info I've seen leans towards read only...

I just find it odd that they would tell you about all this stuff and then NOT mention that it needs memory cards. There's no visible memory card slot on the system. That automatically makes me assume the game cards will be wirteable. The only possible other option is if Nintendo uses something the size of a GBA cart of memory, which is also highly unlikely because that would mean you wouldn't be able to use a memory card and other DS accessory at the same time.

 

[Chittagong]

I just find it odd that they would tell you about all this stuff and then NOT mention that it needs memory cards. There's no visible memory card slot on the system. That automatically makes me assume the game cards will be wirteable. The only possible other option is if Nintendo uses something the size of a GBA cart of memory, which is also highly unlikely because that would mean you wouldn't be able to use a memory card and other DS accessory at the same time.

It might also save games within the device, like Xbox and Ngage do. Although both of those allow you to back them up on a memory card from the device for practical reasons.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Ignoring all my crazy posts in this thread so far (I'm blaming lack of sleep, and lots of it), it might be possible to have some EEPROM situated on the card.

I just can't see Nintendo pushing a AGB size mem cards when the card is what, half that?

 

[StrikerObi]

It might also save games within the device, like Xbox and Ngage do. Although both of those allow you to back them up on a memory card from the device for practical reasons.

Nintendo's keeping hardware costs down, and there is no mention of a writeable memory format inside the system.

Of course you can write the the memory. That's used for the "one game four players" thing that GBA does also. But that's not savable. Once the power goes off your memory is kaput.

 

[StrikerObi]

Ignoring all my crazy posts in this thread so far (I'm blaming lack of sleep, and lots of it), it might be possible to have some EEPROM situated on the card.

I just can't see Nintendo pushing a AGB size mem cards when the card is what, half that?

At this point space is becoming an issue. The cards are literally the size of postage stamps. They're that small because of the 3DR memory on them. There'd be now way to fit an EEPROM on there too.

The only conclusion is that the 3DR is writeable.

 

[Chittagong]

Uh oh, so if no writable memory within device or game card, and GBA size mem cards are unlikely, we are back to NES / SNES era - "3 credits left", "Password", heh.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Well the ONE thing I do remember, is that the Matrix tech was write once. Of course the way my luck is going, that'll probably be wrong too.

 

[snapty00]

Isn't a section of the DS cartridge writeable? I was under the impression that, unlike the GBA and previous cartridge systems, the saving interface isn't separate from the read-only section of the ROM and that only the read-only sectors are permanently closed in production, making a small section of the ROM rewriteable.

GBA had EEPROM or battery-powered SRAM for saving, totally separate from the ROM itself.

 

[StrikerObi]

Isn't a section of the DS cartridge writeable? I was under the impression that, unlike the GBA and previous cartridge systems, the saving interface isn't separate from the read-only section of the ROM and that only the read-only sectors are permanently closed in production, making a small section of the ROM rewriteable.

GBA had EEPROM or battery-powered SRAM for saving, totally separate from the ROM itself.

This makes far too much sense. I'm going with it.

 

[Crazymoogle]

They said something about it relative to the size of large GBA games.

Well if that's the case, I'd expect:

1. 128mb / 16MB (cheap or short lived)
2. 256mb / 32MB (year one standard)
3. 512mb / 64MB (expensive-ish)
4. 1024mb / 128MB (coming soon)

Probably maxing out at 1024mb with bank switching for higher, unless they didn't cheap out on the memory controller.

I just find it odd that they would tell you about all this stuff and then NOT mention that it needs memory cards. There's no visible memory card slot on the system. That automatically makes me assume the game cards will be wirteable. The only possible other option is if Nintendo uses something the size of a GBA cart of memory, which is also highly unlikely because that would mean you wouldn't be able to use a memory card and other DS accessory at the same time.

Who said anything about memory card slots? Small or not, EEPROM/SRAM chips can get damned small. Unless the NDS cart is a full exposed PCE style, it's still entirely possible to use an extra onboard memory type. Take a good look at a production GBA cart and you'll get an idea of just how much free space there is to go around.

Now, if the cart itself is writeable, that's great, but it sounds like something Nintendo would have tried to market. I think the three options are as follows:

1. Two 3DR banks - one read only, one writeable (best case)
2. Onboard SRAM/EEPROM
3. System itself has onboard memory storage

 

[tenchir]

nv, math was wrong.

 

[Crazymoogle]

128mb / 32MB
256mb / 64MB
512mb / 128MB
1024mb / 256MB <--- Not possible.

That's alright Tenchir, I'll wait for you to correct your own math.

Greater than 128MB is possible, but as said in this very thread, you just need a bank switcher to do it.

 

[snapty00]

tenchir
Has trouble reading

Oh, well, I'm an asshole.

 

[aparisi2274]

The media format of Nintendo DS has been visited once in a while, yet I don't have a very clear understanding of it. In the other thread there somebody mentioned that the media is now so cheap that they can do demos - like with Metroid apparently. And Nintendo brags in the latest press release how good the format is.

So

1. What's the max. size of a NDS game card? (in MB, not Megabits)
2. What's the size of a demo then?
3. What's the closest media format to it? SD card?
4. How much more expensive it's to manufacture when compared to UMD?
5. Can NDS also store on the media or is it read-only?

Cant you just wait until Oct. 7th? I am sure everything will be revealed to you.

 

[Chittagong]

Well if that's the case, I'd expect:
1. 128mb / 16MB (cheap or short lived)
2. 256mb / 32MB (year one standard)
3. 512mb / 64MB (expensive-ish)
4. 1024mb / 128MB (coming soon)

This spells out a scenario with not too media heavy games - FMV is certainly out of the window, then - as is a lot of voice acting etc. It's essentially then N64 on steroids in that way, too.

 

[neptunes]

They'll come in sleek dvd style cases too.

pretty small

 

[3phemeral]

Well the ONE thing I do remember, is that the Matrix tech was write once. Of course the way my luck is going, that'll probably be wrong too.

NEWS
Matrix Semiconductor plans to bring us memory that's as cheap and convenient as 35mm camera film, CD-Rs, and audiotape. Using the Santa Clara, California, three-year-old company's patented three-dimensional semiconductor design and TSMC's mass production capabilities (the Taiwanese manufacturer co-developed the manufacturing process), Matrix hopes to have 3-D Memory chips, which will be write-once and can hold data "for more than 100 years," out next year. The company claims 3-D Memory is 10 times cheaper to produce than other memory types, and a 64 MB card could sell for US$3-10. Matrix also hopes to have 3-D Memory available "in multi-packs at local retail outlets" for myriad uses: prerecorded content (e.g., music, maps, reference guides), MP3 players, cellphones, PDAs, digital cameras, and more. 3-D Memory's low cost could also lower device costs, since an MP3 player bundled with the new memory could be $50 less than flash memory-using models. Matrix also promises that its memory will appear in devices from "some of the best-known and respected consumer brands."

The rest is at: Geek.com

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Yay?

 

[3phemeral]

Yay.

=)

 

[DrGAKMAN]

So they have read-only Matrix 3D chips in these NDS cards *as well as* a small cheap re-writable memory chip for game saves...no biggy.

 

[The Faceless Master]

i'm like 100% sure that the largest size memory area a gba can physically access is 256mbit (32MB), anything higher would require some sort of bankswitching... so no GBA games would be over 256mbit... leaving RE2 N64 as the size king for a nintendo system

 

[xsarien]

Man, those DS carts are going to get lost so easily...

 

[FoneBone]

leaving RE2 N64 as the size king for a nintendo system

I don't think RE2 was the only 512-megabit N64 game -- weren't Majora's Mask and Conker that big, too?