http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=pub&aid=3586
Most of this talk could have been made by a Sony guy or gal.
Most of this talk could have been made by a Sony guy or gal.
MightyHedgehog said:To me, it sounds like this guy is just upset that GC isn't so hot outside of Japan. Consumers decide. If MS is making a real mistake by trying to beat Sony to the punch, then they will be punished by the consumers. After all, Nintendo's Iwata has made it clear that the same will hold true for their next system. Just a bunch of crying and whining is all I'm getting out of his tirade.
nubbe said:Launching new hardware during this period will only achieve a limited appeal since most people will still be focused on the current generation of consoles, when they eventually start to get tired of the current hardware the competition will have more appealing hardware around the corner with both backwards capability and strong franchises to back them up.
cybamerc said:SolidSnakex:
Sega didn't pay off developers to support its hardware. M$ does.
cybamerc said:SolidSnakex:
> It's not like MS is forcing the competition into shortening this generation just as the DC
> didn't force everyone into shortening last generation.
Sega wasn't a threat to anyone due to its fiscal problems. M$ is. Sega didn't pay off developers to support its hardware. M$ does.
Please... Sega fate was sealed due to their own mistakes and it was clear that everyone was waiting for the PS2 anyway.MightyHedgehog said:I disagree. Sega was a threat.
Sony is no angel but has at least earned it position through hard work. M$ is just a wannabe with too much money.Sony has done (and continues to do) this as well.
cybamerc said:Sony is no angel but has at least earned it position through hard work. M$ is just a wannabe with too much money.
cybamerc said:Please... Sega fate was sealed due to their own mistakes and it was clear that everyone was waiting for the PS2 anyway.
Sony is no angel but has at least earned it position through hard work. M$ is just a wannabe with too much money.
SolidSnakex said:And as good as MS is doing right now, Nintendo should be leading them and they would be if they weren't so incredibly stubborn. They're basically letting MS beat them.
cybamerc said:This has been a learning experience for M$. You see M$ is one of the few companies than afford to spend $5-6 billion for schooling. Even if the Xbox is a commercial failure and an economical disaster M$ is getting lots of attention from the media and development community which is bound to pay off next gen.
SFA_AOK said:Meh, I think the people here are being a bit whiny about what was said. Plus, most of the quotes are dropped in mid-sentence - there's room for things to be taken out of context.
But really, what does he say?
- MS launching early is not about profitability
- Launching early is not necessarily that big of an advantage
- The industry is preoccupied with next gen consoles which doesn't necessarily reflect the interests of the gaming public
- He wouldn't want to defend the industry from the charge of gratuitous violence
- Industry is obsessed with gamers who have grown up - what about new gamers?
- Bundles == suckage
How much do you really disagree with those points?
IAWTPefralope said:To draw some paralledl, I think some media seem to be ok taking off points for GBA requirements and/or disagreements with Nintendo's business practices, but when a game like Pandora Tomorrow benefits bigtime from online they have no qualms about not taking off for the extra service needed for full enjoyment...
MightyHedgehog said:Just like Nintendo and Sega basically let Sony beat them with their own stupidity and arrogance. Obviously, nothing's in a vaccuum and a large part of anyone's success is dependent on their peers' actions (or inactions).
Nonsense. Sony said when it would launch a year and half in advance.MightyHedgehog said:Sounds like all you're doing is purely seeing this from hindsight. DC's ever-growing presence was a factor in the PS2 releasing in the sorry state that it did, software-wise, IMO.
Sure. But you don't have to be willing to lose it. Sony was profitable with PS1.You have to spend and be willing to spend large amounts of money in order to wriggle into the market as it is.
cybamerc said:Sure. But you don't have to be willing to lose it. Sony was profitable with PS1.
Actually, I think that's the very reason it does work, as I've heard almost nothing but complaints about single-player SCT. By the developer's own admission and marketing, it's a game that is really meant to be played online. Same with RE:Outbreak and the upcoming Godzilla sequel.SolidSnakex said:"To draw some paralledl, I think some media seem to be ok taking off points for GBA requirements and/or disagreements with Nintendo's business practices,"
That comparison really doesn't work as the 2 GC games that have used GBA requirement have been very multiplayer oriented to the point that alot of people find the offline modes boring (kinda like with PSO). So that's why there are points taken off for those, because the single player mode just isn't as strong as the multiplayer mode since the game was built with that mode in mind.
human5892 said:Actually, I think that's the very reason it does work, as I've heard almost nothing but complaints about single-player SCT. By the developer's own admission and marketing, it's a game that is really meant to be played online. Same with RE:Outbreak and the upcoming Godzilla sequel.
SolidSnakex said:"To draw some paralledl, I think some media seem to be ok taking off points for GBA requirements and/or disagreements with Nintendo's business practices,"
That comparison really doesn't work as the 2 GC games that have used GBA requirement have been very multiplayer oriented to the point that alot of people find the offline modes boring (kinda like with PSO). So that's why there are points taken off for those, because the single player mode just isn't as strong as the multiplayer mode since the game was built with that mode in mind.
He accused the industry of paying too much attention to a narrow demographic of consumers who have grown up with videogames and are now in their thirties, and failing to appeal beyond those boundaries - either to older or female audiences, citing the example of the hugely popular Pogo.com game website, or to the ten year-old gamers whom he described as vital to repopulating the industry.
MightyHedgehog said:Fuck this guy. Really. I believe that Sony, in particular, has done more to open up gaming to the female audience than Nintendo has ever done since the advent of the PS1. It's obvious (to me) that more older gamers actively play the XBOX and PS2 than the GC. This guy is fucking insane. Not only this, but the whole ten year-old comment is ridiculous.
MightyHedgehog said:It's not loss...it's investment. Obviously, MS would like for the XBOX to be profitable, but they had to make very costly changes to compete with Nintendo and Sony. While they might not have had a more clearly definite aim of keeping the costs of the platform's business leaner and more conducive to profit, I'll argue that they had to do what they did. Their expeditures toward building their reputation among gamers and the games makers will prove to be more important than any immediate profit. After all, MS, like pre-PS1 Sony, had no street-cred in this market. You have to build that. Spend money to make money.
ge-man said:As for GTA, the guy didn't even attack it so I don't see the controversy. He is making an interesting point however--it's hard to defend a game like GTA. For every argument about its great gameplay, there are others that can be made that question the neccesity of its violence or its questionable of moral value. If this is the direction that the industry really wants to travel, they'll have to be prepaired for more well reasoned objections to the content of their games. That's why the guy would rather not have to be constantly faced with having to defend something like GTA.
Guileless said:(which is their only cachet among casual gamers)
ge-man said:I knew someone would mention movies. The problem with the comparison is that film as a medium is over a century old and has established its artistic merit long ago. It's easier for a director or film producer to defend a movie in terms of artistry because many people accept film as an art form, which gives it a lot of room in terms of content. But even then, debates still rage on even about what acceptable in a film.
Games are just a few decades old and are still looked at as something largely consumed by a young or juvenille crowd. Just because there is a maturity evolution taking place, that doesn't mean that video games can automatically be defended on artistic value. The way I interpet the guy's comments is that the industry needs to tread lightly before it comes under major fire. Video games are still one of the easiest targets to take a shot at after some sort horribly violent events like Columbine or the DC sniper.
Musashi Wins! said:Does that mean Nintendo will have to supply better software to compete? Most everyone I meet, who I assume falls under the rubrik "casual gamer" buys the system that has the games they want. Outside of Japan it seems that Xbox has done that better than GC in the second phase of the console wars.
I dunno about that, by the time GameCube shipped DVD playback wasn't as big an issue as in 2000 imo. It'd be nice to see figures for the XBox DVD remote...SolidSnakex said:That's pretty much it. They're very arrogant and stubborn still. If they'd simply matched what Sony and MS were doing this gen (DVD playback and online support), they'd have 2nd easily locked up.
I agree with this somewhat, aiming at the youth market probably made GameCube a harder sell for consumers who went for GBA and PS1 instead. Really, marketing and image have been Nintendo's biggest hurdle this generation, but essentially competing with themselves wasn't the smartest move either.MightyHedgehog said:Nintendo's refusal to accept that the market changes with the most popular platform is the key thing, IMO. Post PS1, they seemed to not understand that Sony's success was primarily in tapping an older demographic while servicing the traditionally younger one. This is also MS' aim. Nintendo could do the same without negatively impacting their current fans, but they still seem to be in the dark. MS is obviously modeling their practice after Sony's, as XBOX aims for the same broad range that PS2 does.
I think in going so hard for the "teen/20 something male" demographic though that PS2 (and XBox in turn) has limited it's overall appeal compared to PS1. I rememebr reading this was actually a significant problem in Japan, where PS1 had nearly a 40% female userbase which has been halved on PS2... indeed one of Sony's recent business goals they laid out was to specifically try and get back their female audience.MightyHedgehog said:Fuck this guy. Really. I believe that Sony, in particular, has done more to open up gaming to the female audience than Nintendo has ever done since the advent of the PS1. It's obvious (to me) that more older gamers actively play the XBOX and PS2 than the GC. This guy is fucking insane. Not only this, but the whole ten year-old comment is ridiculous.
I disagree with several of them, actually.How much do you really disagree with those points?
MS launching early is about trying to find a way to get to profitability. Their 1st approach didn't work well in that regard. If they want to become profitable and they think laucnhing new hardware is important for that, then shouldn't they do that? Besides, they're a johnny-come-lately to the console gaming industry and its not as if they've managed gain anywhere close to the majority of the marketshare. If there was ever anyone in a position to say "Do Over" in the console biz, it's MS.SFA_AOK said:- MS launching early is not about profitability
Agreed- Launching early is not necessarily that big of an advantage
And yet, somehow, I am still bathed in absolute glut of previews, movies, pics, reviews, etc. for software and peripherals related to current gen hardware. The industry seems capable of multitasking and so are most of its customers.- The industry is preoccupied with next gen consoles which doesn't necessarily reflect the interests of the gaming public
He seems awfully willing to sacrifice GTA a little quickly as being strictly an exercise in gratuitous violence. "Gratuitous" violence is a quicksand of subjective definitions. I can understand the desire to avoid such a fight, but have a little backbone and stand up for the industry's right to free expression given that there are rating systems that provide disclosure of content prior to actually experiencing it.- He wouldn't want to defend the industry from the charge of gratuitous violence
It's easy to stand from the perspective of a hardcore/enthusiast/hobbyist gamer, or as a businessman who primarily services that type of gamer, and say where's the new blood? But the thing is, segments of the industry are doing just fine catering to people outside of the enthusiast demographic. He points out Pogo.com, but they're not alone. Yahoo and MSN also have sizeable followings for their online game services, user populations that actually dwarf the likes of MMORPG populations, for example.- Industry is obsessed with gamers who have grown up - what about new gamers?
Forced bundles for signifcantly higher cost than standalone hardware = suckage but if there's an option to buy the hardware standalone or if the bundle isn't significantly higher priced than the hardware alone, I'm not sure what the problem is.- Bundles == suckage
ge-man said:I remember reading that too on the old board. Gaining a broader audience interms of gender continues to be significant problem for everyone.
And yet Sony managed to lose female gamers in significant numbers during this generation... again software's only a part of the equation. Image and marketing are far more important... look at GameCube, it has plenty of mature software, yet it's still thought of a kids machine... see the problem?SolidSnakex said:It is, but the PS2 has the majority of games that are really popular with female gamers which are rhythm games. It also has Eyetoy which is another thing that's really popular with female gamers.