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Nintendo lawsuit states emulation "illegal" and even linking to emulators is "trafficking"....and even worse stuff

ReBurn

Gold Member
Well. The end of the matter is that software emulation is officially legal. There's nothing else to debate.
I don't know that I would be as confident as you are. Court rulings change the application of law all the time. It's not impossible that a judge with a bias toward business or a misunderstanding of emulation could make a decision that changes the current application of law and make emulation officially illegal. Nintendo knows this is possible which is why they continue to push. They may find an area of law that hasn't been covered by another ruling that gives them what they want. I hope it never happens, but it could.
 

playbignbox

Member
You don't need an emulator for that. You can hack a real console and it will boot them.
But one thing does not exclude the other, Nintendo even sued the person responsible for unlocking the Switch and the hacker was sentenced for the rest of his life.

The truth is that as long as there continues to be an overwhelming correlation between piracy and emulation, Nintendo will rightly continue to try to combat it. It would be nice if advocates of emulation and game preservation proposed solutions to this, instead of "yeah, I'm part of the 0.0001% that uses emulation legally, so Nintendo can go screw itself and take the loss", because it's hard to defend a group that is clearly the exception and, surprisingly, not even the creator of Yuzu fit into this group because he downloaded ROMS illegally lol
 

Minsc

Gold Member
I don't know that I would be as confident as you are. Court rulings change the application of law all the time. It's not impossible that a judge with a bias toward business or a misunderstanding of emulation could make a decision that changes the current application of law and make emulation officially illegal. Nintendo knows this is possible which is why they continue to push. They may find an area of law that hasn't been covered by another ruling that gives them what they want. I hope it never happens, but it could.

And by that regard, just because a court ruling changed and made it illegal, it wouldn't mean it couldn't happen again and reverse once more. Furthermore, not every country operates the same. Something illegal for one country may not be the same for another. Certainly there are rules that work differently in the EU and other places, so you can't act like if it were changed in the US that would be true across the entire world. Because US law doesn't apply universally outside the US.
 

Cyberpunkd

Gold Member
The truth is that as long as there continues to be an overwhelming correlation between piracy and emulation
But there is not. We went through this a few years ago when companies were pushing to have all the Pirate Bays banned, etc. There is not a single comprehensive study showing that X pirated downloads equals Y lost sales. The common assumption everyone is making is "if people download that means they could buy, but didn't" which is an assumption without any basis in fact.
 

Astray

Member
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rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
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Euler007

Member
Nintendo has always been assholes. From how they treated 3rd parties buying the ROM chips, how they treated Sony in the 64DD debacle, how they treat their customer by releasing sub-par titles (like most recent Pokemons), while the cult members proselytize on social media.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
And by that regard, just because a court ruling changed and made it illegal, it wouldn't mean it couldn't happen again and reverse once more. Furthermore, not every country operates the same. Something illegal for one country may not be the same for another. Certainly there are rules that work differently in the EU and other places, so you can't act like if it were changed in the US that would be true across the entire world. Because US law doesn't apply universally outside the US.
You're right, it could switch back. Even with some protections codified in the DMCA this just shows how brittle the law in the US really can be. Judges have the power to declare laws, or parts of laws, unenforceable if they determine that there's ambiguity in how they're written.

The reason I'm talking about the US is because Nintendo is suing a streamer in US district court for streaming unreleased Switch titles via emulation, which Nintendo claims were pirated. The rest of the world isn't really relevant to this situation because a US judge isn't going to care about the rest of the world. Besides, illegal or not, some countries aren't going to enforce trademark or copyright claims. You can buy hard drives from China with gigabytes to terabytes of pirated roms on them and there's probably nothing Nintendo will ever be able to do about it. But that's not going to stop them from trying to fight in the countries where they can and limit their perceived damages. What Nintendo needs to do is get better at security if they want this to stop because the cat's out of the bag with Switch. People have been emulating their current consoles since N64 and they still haven't figured out how to secure their IP.

At the end of the day it's not really going to make that much difference if Nintendo keeps filing lawsuits against small teams and individuals. A lot of the people they sue will still end up acquiescing because they can't afford the legal costs of defending themselves, which makes other people fear picking up the mantle. I don't like what Nintendo is doing but in the case of this streamer I can understand why they're doing it.
 
Nintendo be like this sometimes…

cOcR0wA.jpeg
 
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marquimvfs

Member
Hacking a console also means you have to own it.
And, sometimes (I'm not so sure that's the case with switch), consoles are sold at a loss that is compensated with software sales. A person that uses an emulator to play pirate games could be hurting Nintendo less than a person that bought a switch just to jailbreak it and play pirate games. It's also important to say that a switch is cheaper than a gaming pc capable of running switch emulators.
One is vastly easier than the other and readily available with options, and it's not like finding files is difficult. Some consoles require opening them up to hack them or run the risk of bricking, others (like the 3ds) are easy as cake.
Maybe easier to you. People also struggle with software configuration, also, not every pc is capable of running Yuzu or etc. So, even with tutorials, isn't as easy as you are implying. But with Consoles you can, everytime, just send it to a shop that do mods, it cannot be easier than that.
lol, I don't know how you get that conclusion.

I'm just saying people turn to Emulators and ROMs because it's a lot easier to do in most cases.
Again, consoles are cheaper than a gaming pc. People could buy a second hand switch and pay to have it jailbroken, if we are talking about the cheaper and simpler way of pirating.
But I'm not going to pretend that the vast majority of people (especially ones pirating a modern console that's still being sold) aren't using emulators to play games they got for free.
That's just an extrapolation in the levels of "all pc gamers are cheaters". Numbers from your ass.
TOTK leaked a week early and people were playing it before it even released and posting videos and screenshots.
Yes, and that has nothing to do with emulators.
I can understand why a company would be pissed.
Companies can be pissed about a myriad of things, doesn't make them right. Microsoft, for instance, though that was a good idea to block the sell of used games. They got pissed abour people reselling something that was their property. Imagine the entitlement.

Summarizing, emulators aren't the problem like the conpanies like to paint. They are great tools that even the manufacturer uses as a commercial product, they just don't like when it is done by other people. (Fuck them, always entitled over their consumers)

They also don't like piracy, and this is a valid concern, but they like to mix up the two situations to create empathy along the legit buyers, but, in fact, piracy is a cultural problem that is perpetuated due to their own incompetence. Emulators aren't the problem, they are a solution (to others problems, not piracy over current gen), and a solution that is even used by Nintendo themselves.
 
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marquimvfs

Member
Nintendo is the most anti consumer company in gaming.

Change my mind.
Sony sued emulators devs twice (lost both lawsuits), Microsoft tried to ban the sell of used games, Ubisoft removed a legally bought game from user's catalog without prior notice and so on.
I think that most companies have their fair share of anti-consumer moves, I don't think that what Nintendo does, even if it is real bad, is the worst example of asshood.
 

Hero_Select

Member
And, sometimes (I'm not so sure that's the case with switch), consoles are sold at a loss that is compensated with software sales. A person that uses an emulator to play pirate games could be hurting Nintendo less than a person that bought a switch just to jailbreak it and play pirate games. It's also important to say that a switch is cheaper than a gaming pc capable of running switch emulators.

Maybe easier to you. People also struggle with software configuration, also, not every pc is capable of running Yuzu or etc. So, even with tutorials, isn't as easy as you are implying. But with Consoles you can, everytime, just send it to a shop that do mods, it cannot be easier than that.

Again, consoles are cheaper than a gaming pc. People could buy a second hand switch and pay to have it jailbroken, if we are talking about the cheaper and simpler way of pirating.

That's just an extrapolation in the levels of "all pc gamers are cheaters". Numbers from your ass.

Yes, and that has nothing to do with emulators.

Companies can be pissed about a myriad of things, doesn't make them right. Microsoft, for instance, though that was a good idea to block the sell of used games. They got pissed abour people reselling something that was their property. Imagine the entitlement.

Summarizing, emulators aren't the problem like the conpanies like to paint. They are great tools that even the manufacturer uses as a commercial product, they just don't like when it is done by other people. (Fuck them, always entitled over their consumers)

They also don't like piracy, and this is a valid concern, but they like to mix up the two situations to create empathy along the legit buyers, but, in fact, piracy is a cultural problem that is perpetuated due to their own incompetence. Emulators aren't the problem, they are a solution (to others problems, not piracy over current gen), and a solution that is even used by Nintendo themselves.
My friend you can download and run emulators on phones. You can emulate up to a ps3/360 on fairly inexpensive computers.

Also it IS easier to emulate than hack - especially when you say "just send it to a shop" lmao which is the exact opposite of easy. You had to pull out the joycons and cause a short on the Switch to hack it. Hacking a Vita is more complicated than downloading an emulator and games + the expense of buying the proprietary memory cards. Some consoles require you to have a mod chip installed.

Extrapolation or not, it doesn't change the fact that most people who are downloading emulators are also pirating games they don't own - unless you're saying the opposite is true then.. good for you in believing in people.. I guess? lol

Summarizing, Emulators - while perfectly legal - are used to the vast majority of people who download them to pirate games. Do I want them to go away? No, I use them.
 
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marquimvfs

Member
My friend you can download and run emulators on phones. You can emulate up to a ps3/360 on fairly inexpensive computers.
The question is, are those computers or phones capable of running switch games cheaper than a used switch? Does an iPhone runs Yuzu? With or without jailbreak? There's always a catch that emulators users have to solve in order to use, things aren't as straightforward as you are painting.
Also it IS easier to emulate than hack - especially when you say "just send it to a shop" lmao which is the exact opposite of easy.
I don't understand your concept of easiness, then.
You had to pull out the joycons and cause a short on the Switch to hack it. Hacking a Vita is more complicated than downloading an emulator and games + the expense of buying the proprietary memory cards. Some consoles require you to have a mod chip installed.
Yes, also, some computers require to be upgraded in order to execute a given emulator, some people know how to do it, some people don't.
Extrapolation or not, it doesn't change the fact that most people who are downloading emulators are also pirating games they don't own
Yes, it does, as emulators aren't limited to the switch ones, or even the gaming ones. You could say that most Yuzu users are pirating, that would be closer to reality. But it is a fact that emulators are way (waaay) bigger than their piracy usages. You just bought the Nintendo discourse that emulation=bad, without even fully understanding that emulation is a thing that is in another level than gaming, it is present in almost every cpu powered device that you use, and the concept that emulation is a bad thing hurts every legit use (gaming or not) of the tools.
 
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playbignbox

Member
That's just an extrapolation in the levels of "all pc gamers are cheaters". Numbers from your ass.
Man, let's get back to the real world, most people (almost everyone, actually) who use emulators download ROMS illegally to run on them, do you really want a study to say something so obvious?
 

marquimvfs

Member
Man, let's get back to the real world, most people (almost everyone, actually) who use emulators download ROMS illegally to run on them, do you really want a study to say something so obvious?
Back to real world? Emulators, as you phrased it, are very broad, used in almost every device that haves a CPU, for a million different things, not just gaming. You mean "just" switch emulators, right? In real world, Nintendo hurts every legitimate user of every emulator used to anything but gaming, but also gaming, by leading you undeducated users to believe that "emulators are bad and only used to piracy". Stop. There's millions of emulators, for millions of platforms, Yuzu (and switch emulators) is just a small sample of the emulators use that you should be ashamed of say such bullshit. Even gaming related, mini consoles sold (and still sell) millions of units, retro collections still are present on everything and selling gangbusters and you guys think that Yuzu alone present some kind of weird menance to the market. If Nintendo actually won some bullshit lawsuit and set a precedent against emulators, you apologist will fuck up every legitimate use of emulation (gaming or not gaming) in order to let Nintendo fill their pockets a little more.
 
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Futaleufu

Member
Sony sued emulators devs twice (lost both lawsuits), Microsoft tried to ban the sell of used games, Ubisoft removed a legally bought game from user's catalog without prior notice and so on.
Closing an entire online shop and taking away the choice of redownloading previously bought games is much much worse than removing a game from your library
 
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Sony sued emulators devs twice (lost both lawsuits), Microsoft tried to ban the sell of used games, Ubisoft removed a legally bought game from user's catalog without prior notice and so on.
I think that most companies have their fair share of anti-consumer moves, I don't think that what Nintendo does, even if it is real bad, is the worst example of asshood.
Nintendo has lost lawsuits too. On top of that, they hate eSports. A couple of years ago, they shut down Smash World Tour despite the profits going to non-charity organizations. They've sued many rental companies for copyright infringement of their manuals. Their tendency to shut down fan projects and that whole Nintendo Partner Program which was probably the shittiest move in history. When it comes to bullying others, no one does it better than Nintendo.
 

nbcjr

Member
There is a reason why Nintendo bought yuzu and chose not to sue. As yuzy de is Brazilian, in case of a loss, Nintendo would have to pay for the devs' lawyer. It is not as easy to bankrupt by suing in Brazil as is in the USA.
 

marquimvfs

Member
There is a reason why Nintendo bought yuzu and chose not to sue. As yuzy de is Brazilian, in case of a loss, Nintendo would have to pay for the devs' lawyer. It is not as easy to bankrupt by suing in Brazil as is in the USA.
Yeah, Nintendo has a history of settling with Brazilian companies regarding their products. Back in the Famicom times, an electronics company called Gradiente was threatened with a lawsuit for making Famiclones. After being told to shove the lawsuit up their asses, japan staff ended here making a deal with Gradiente to exclusively manufacture Nintendo products here in exchange for the immediate stop of the production of the phantom system (the Gradiente mega successful Famiclone) . From that deal a joint venture called Playtronic was formed and Brazil was, at the time, the only country outside japan that manufactured Nintendo consoles and cartridges.
 
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playbignbox

Member
Back to real world? Emulators, as you phrased it, are very broad, used in almost every device that haves a CPU, for a million different things, not just gaming. You mean "just" switch emulators, right? In real world, Nintendo hurts every legitimate user of every emulator used to anything but gaming, but also gaming, by leading you undeducated users to believe that "emulators are bad and only used to piracy". Stop. There's millions of emulators, for millions of platforms, Yuzu (and switch emulators) is just a small sample of the emulators use that you should be ashamed of say such bullshit. Even gaming related, mini consoles sold (and still sell) millions of units, retro collections still are present on everything and selling gangbusters and you guys think that Yuzu alone present some kind of weird menance to the market. If Nintendo actually won some bullshit lawsuit and set a precedent against emulators, you apologist will fuck up every legitimate use of emulation (gaming or not gaming) in order to let Nintendo fill their pockets a little more.
You keep changing the focus of the discussion. Obviously I'm referring to game emulation, since this is a gaming forum. And specifically, emulation of Nintendo games, which is the company in question here in this thread.

Another focus you change is by citing all these examples of mini consoles or collections that use emulation. Well, all of these companies that do this have full licenses or are the rights holders. It wouldn't make sense to discuss whether or not Nintendo has the right to emulate its own console by releasing a NES Mini.

This idea of harming the entire emulation scene is just an excuse, because Nintendo has no interest in that. What Nintendo does have an interest in is what hurts it financially: Citra, Yuzu, Retroarch, SNES9x, and many other emulators that most users download to run ROMs they illegally acquire.
 
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marquimvfs

Member
This idea of harming the entire emulation scene is just an excuse
No, it's my entire point this whole time. Any victory from Nintendo (or any other company) in court is a harm to the entire emulation industry, not just homebrew scene.
I've never changed focus, I'm talking exclusively about it the whole time, even in other posts about the subject, if you're willing to search.
I get that you guys consider it a huge stretch, but any precedent in the matter is a door to any company that is dissatisfied with any project to retaliate, Nintendo "true interests" don't matter, preriod. It is a real harm.
What you guys don't understand is that you cannot disassociate gaming emulation from emulation in general, that everytime Nintendo retaliate projects and it's public talk shit about emulators instead of deterninate projects that did something wrong, the line that separate the types of emulators goes blurry into the public perception, and this will contribute to the capacity of a given company retaliate against every project they think is a threat.
The law is already clear, precedents are given, what Nintendo is trying to do is gain sympathy in order to change the rules in their favour, and you guys are part of the mass they're manipulating.
 
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Paulistano

Member
So, PC bros mad because they can't get Nintendo games for free?
To be fair I really don't care about Nintendo and in this day and age we get everything that matters officially on Steam, I would just like Nintendo to fuck off and leave emulators alone because I will not buy any game console that in 10 years time is just expensive to maintain and is almost e-waste.
 

marquimvfs

Member
Which countries? Not the US
In Brazil, given that the data was acquired legally, you are entitled to have a backup, as long as it's not shared. The complete text is in Portuguese: https://www.tjdft.jus.br/publicacoe...e-cg/2016/portaria-conjunta-105-de-17-11-2016 for clarification, is a rule about how backups can be done and managed by some agents, that set precedent over how any citizen can handle their own data.

I also think that most of EU does allow backups of legally acquired data, specially Germany.

USA is pretty shitty and retrograde regarding consumer protection rights, any eula written by some 16 yo in a garage has more power over the consumer than the law itself, it's ridiculous.
 
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nkarafo

Member
Summarizing, Emulators - while perfectly legal...
Everything after the three dots doesn't matter.

Emulators are legal.

If Nintendo wants to fight piracy they can turn their attention to the illegal part of the whole operation: The ROMS.

Just take down the ROM/ISO sites. Go after the uploaders. These are the problematic parts, not the emulators.


You keep changing the focus of the discussion. Obviously I'm referring to game emulation, since this is a gaming forum. And specifically, emulation of Nintendo games, which is the company in question here in this thread.

Another focus you change is by citing all these examples of mini consoles or collections that use emulation. Well, all of these companies that do this have full licenses or are the rights holders. It wouldn't make sense to discuss whether or not Nintendo has the right to emulate its own console by releasing a NES Mini.
The premise of the thread is that Nintendo is attacking emulation as a whole. They claim emulation is illegal, not just Yuzu or Ruyjinx.

They are inexcusable.


Citra, Yuzu, Retroarch, SNES9x, and many other emulators that most users download to run ROMs they illegally acquire
See the bold, big letters? There's your problem, that's the illegal part. You even posted it yourself so you are perfectly aware.

Emulators are legal. Completely unrelated to ROM sharing and illegal ROM hosting sites. I don't know how else to explain this.
 
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and before anyone thinks the thread title is fear baiting...I read the entire document over the weekend and my background outside of filmmaking is entertainment business law and spent years in copyright

While the newest "Nintendo sues streamer" lawsuit is KINDA justified as the streamer may be one of the largest idiots on the block (taunting Nintendo with pirated software and basically forcing their hand) it's no surprise that AGAIN Nintendo has cherry picked a lawsuit that is a slam dunk win / settlement on at least MOST of the merits of the case as they will have one more civil suit to point to that foundationally backs up the reality they want...a reality where emulators are not legal

In one passage Nintendo describes no legal use case for Switch emulation and states back ups are not permitted, where our current precedent allows for both for "interoperability of software" and "archival purposes". Nintendo just basically SAYS "NO...not allowed" and sues

My favorite being a passage where they state the mere act of linking to a Nintendo Switch emulator is a "trafficking offense"....like you are the Tony Montana of emulation if you give someone a link to an emulator. It rises to the level of absurd but it's in the lawsuit verbatim

Just a straight up grab from Nintendo on a case they know they cant lose on the portion the streamer was an idiot on; streaming pre-release bootleg software and telling others how to get the same bootleg software themselves.

But it presents a nice wide open door for Nintendo to Kool Aid Man through


You are absolutely fear baiting. You make it seem like nintendo is saying any and all emulation is illegal and linking to any and all emulators is trafficking which after reading the complaint that is not what nintendo is saying.

Nintendo is saying two emulators: yuzu and ryujinx contain nintendo's prod keys which circumvent their technological measures which thereby violates several laws and they also list case law which to support their claim.

I only know what I've casually read online and here on gaf, but it nintendo seems to have a very good legal team so I am going to assume that whatever their lawyers have cited is in fact true.
 

SHA

Member
If the next xbox an Playstation gonna hit the $700 mark, then buying a switch with either of these 2 consoles is necessary for everyone, that's why it's going to surpass the original switch, luck are always on their side.
 
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SHA

Member
We're still buying the Switch 2 though, right?

Nintendo can sue anyone they want <3
I think the suing is gonna fall apart cause you don't really own your games, and you're ganna lose them anyway given their track record with digital purchases.
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
If the next xbox an Playstation gonna hit the $700 mark, then buying a switch with either of these 2 consoles is necessary for everyone, that's why it's going to surpass the original switch, luck are always on their side.
It's not luck, it's just smart business and it also highlights the importance of exclusivity.
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
Man you really mad some people aren't paying and you are lol, so you know even if emulators didn't exist some people aren't paying either with a hacked Switch.
Why would I care about Nintendo? Lol

I just think it's pathetic that people are worried about not being able to get free stuff.
 
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