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Nintendo's arrogance shines through...
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jarrod said:
And if you compare those EA, Ubisoft, and Activision numbers who comes out on top? When it comes to sports and action clearly Xbox wins on the third party side. When it comes to E for everyone games clearly Gamecube wins. Many Gamecube titles however have sold just because the system lacks good 3rd party support. People are looking for something to buy besides what they already have purchased (mario,zelda metroid, sonic) What were the #1, 2, and 3 selling Gamecube games for July 04'?
TheGreenGiant
Banned
HalfPastNoon said:
and you wonder why? If anyone said that to me in that manner, I'd tell them to FO too. That's incredibly rude to begin with. I'd love to find out who they were and who knows they might eat humble pie when Revolution is embraced by one and all. They were just looking for freebies / money bags / deals.
Depends on the game really. And ususally it's by a slim margin unless there's other factors at play (exclusivity windows, extra features, etc).JayFro said:
You mean like Soul Calibur 2, BurnOut 2, Agent Under Fire, TimeSplitters 2, Godzilla DAMM, etc?JayFro said:
The truth is, when you look at things overall, XBox has a notable advatage in sports over GameCube and that's it. Generally outside a few isolated cases, multiplatform games sell comparably on both platforms... the only console with a clear advantage in everything seems to be PS2.
Er, how's this make any sense? A second ago weren't you saying 3rd party games don't sell on GameCube?JayFro said:
Besides, I'd say full support from Namco, Capcom, Bandai, EA, Sega, Activision, UbiSoft & THQ isn't exactly lacking...
Tales of Symphonia, a niche RPG release that broke 100 in 2 weeks. It spanked Sudeki hard btw.JayFro said:
jarrod said:
Wrong, the #1 game on Gamecube for the month was Spider Man. Tales of Symphonia was second. Anyway, who cares if it spanked Sudeki? Was Sudeki even advertised in the slightest way? Plus Sudeki is crap.
NCAA 2005 Xbox 260k
NCAA 2005 GCN 32k
Thats comparable?
My point being that games like Timesplitters which sold like crap on every other console sold well on the Cube because you just don't have many FPS to choose from. A lack of titles will let other titles that don't sell as well on other consoles sell well on the Cube. Why would I buy Timesplitters when I have 100 other FPS on Xbox to choose from? Not that hard to figure out.
The tie ratios between Xbox and Gamecube also seem to be getting a bit larger in North America. Xbox moved much more software compared to the Cube in July, most of it third party.
PS2: 8.52 208,169,160 software sold
Xbox: 7.01 65,662,670 software sold
GCN: 6.68 51,248,960 software sold
GBA: 3.67
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
that Developer sounds like a real ass.
My mistake... and Symphonia had a glaring lack of advertisement as well.JayFro said:
Are you even paying attention? Do I really have to respond to this and restate what I've been repeatedly saying all along?JayFro said:
Well, it sold comparably on XBox & GC actually, around 240k each iirc. Nice excuse though.JayFro said:
Actually the GC/Xbox tie ratio gap is shrinking, it used to be higher. And these are US tie ratios only I might add... worldwide both platforms have moved about the same amount of software (GC slightly ahead actually, but by a negligible amount).JayFro said:
jarrod said:
And what you said was that if you added up Ubi, Activision, and EA there wouldn't be much of a difference in software numbers. Thats just plain wrong, add the numbers up and it isn't even close. Xbox is up by 14 million units of software in the states, yeah.......thats a small number. PS2 is just killing everyone however for obvious reasons.
DopeyFish said:AFAIK, Microsoft is the best at pleasing developers, Sony is somewhat arrogant but not really helpful... and Nintendo...
well... they're Nintendo
Well you think Nintendo might want to suck it up and go into ass kissing mode or something. The only revolution they might see is PSP getting more devs to support it and all of the sudden they start losing control of the handheld market. That would be a disaster.
Evidently I've not made things clear enough... here let me repeat it for you, read slowly...JayFro said:
jarrod said:
...grasp that?
And despite what most Americans think, we aren't the only place that matters.JayFro said:
Worldwide GameCube's moved 115,240,000 units of software as of June 2004... anyone have XBox numbers for comparison?
Yep, MS has done a spectacular job of pleasing Namco, Bandai, Capcom, Konami and especially Square Enix so far.DopeyFish said:AFAIK, Microsoft is the best at pleasing developers, Sony is somewhat arrogant but not really helpful... and Nintendo...
well... they're Nintendo
MS and Nintendo both have work to do...
JayFro said:
Well, as someone might as well point out... Nintendo is making tons of money from their core franchises. I'm not sure what the quote was but someone from Nintendo said something really mean about 3rd parties... I don't remember the quote though.
jarrod said:Yep, MS has done a spectacular job of pleasing Namco, Bandai, Capcom, Konami and especially Square Enix so far.
MS and Nintendo both have work to do...
Microsoft can't magically make a Japanese userbase appear out of thin air. That and those companies would also have to produce more than bargain bin titles to get sales. But beyond that... in terms of 1 on 1 support, problem solving, etc... Microsoft will be there to help.
Nintendo also works with 3rd parties on technical and development issues, hell they sent EAD staff to Capcom in order to get REmake done in time. Any 3rd party can use Mario Club for product evaluation and criticism. Miyamoto was working directly with EA on the GC/GBA versions of The Sims. Nintendo actually gives support for the TriForce board too (Microsoft doesn't for Chihiro btw). They have full time tool support on call. I think the real problem for Nintendo is that their new friendly inclusive developer policies don't really extend outside Japan (except for isolated cases like EA, UbiSoft & Activision). Same goes for Microsoft in Japan though (except for Sega, Tecmo & SNK).DopeyFish said:
The bottom line is both Nintendo and Microsoft have to do whatever it takes to get 3rd parties in foreign regions on their side... neither have done enough this generation imo.
Nintendo has a bad image. And the reps are really suppossed to help that image. AOL (and I would say even MS), despite being hated by alot of naysayers, has a good image, but not just through their massive advertising...it's also through their reps. I'm talking in the retail/rental sector here (since I work at Blockbuster) it's staggerring (even though I quit AOL months ago) that I get like 2 to 3 disc's a month from them, even phone calls and yet even still working at Blockbuster we get a huge box of discs every month for AOL and they fly off the counter as fast as we put them up...we have an AOL rep come in quit often to set up their own displays and make sure that AOL is *represented* properly. It's 'cos the reps know that they can get people this way. Let's refocus back on topic to video games. I have yet to see a MS rep come into our Blockbuster store...but I DO know that there is someone representing X-BOX properly when it comes to game rentals. Critically acclaimed games like iNinja & Beyong Good & Evil we got on X-BOX...we didn't even get the PS2 versions. We usually get our X-BOX games sooner then the other console games and on a more comparable scale to that of PS2 (despite it having a much larger userbase)...it's like MS is working with Blockbuster (and probably other retailers/rental chains) to make X-BOX look as comparable to PS2 as possible. Even niche X-BOX games like Metal Slug 3 & Shenmue we had gotten...a comparably rare title like P.N.03 on GAMECUBE or PS2's Contra are not at Blockbuster though. I just feel that MS has represented themselves MUCH better than Nintendo has and even (in alot of cases) represented themselves better than Sony has.
I have talked to managers, district leaders and even higher ups at Blockbuster and have yet to get a solid answer on how the rental sector works with games. I mean, when we get 20 Smashing Drives on GAMECUBE and *NO* Zelda 4 Swords it makes me wonder if they even do research or pick titles/quantities from a hat. I know, that before Nintendo even launched GAMECUBE retailers & Blockbuster pretty much had it pegged in their minds that only kid games will rent/sell on GAMECUBE, let's ignore the sports and mainstream and the mature titles on the system and go for the bright & colorful cover boxes when choosing which games to carry. And if a Nintendo rep with ANY brains would just step into Blockbuster (hell any gaming related establishment) and look at the GAMECUBE section they would see why they are in third place and they would see why their image is so bad. The one Nintendo rep I talked to (met him at Meijer) did nothing...it was like as if he was getting a free ride from Nintendo and just sitting back and letting the Nintendo name do all the work. And going into other retailers/rental chains I see the same representation...the laid back "let the name sell it" stance...pffft...most people could care less about the name especially if it isn't backed up with something.
Take this to the topic at hand, if the same "reps" that they have (or, should I say DON'T have) going out and making sure GAMECUBE/Nintendo are getting proper representation are the same kind of "reps" they have checking up on third party relations then it should be no surprize that they're in the situation they're in. They seriously need to get ACTIVE reps, reps who will ask the question what can I do to make Nintendo look better...'cos that's their job.
My Blockbuster specifically, when they tell us to work on cleaning up the games (tiddying them up, etc) GAMECUBE is always the last to get done and in most cases doesn't get done, so we have a trashed GAMECUBE section with missing, damaged, cover-boxless, etc. games stuffed in the back of the games section like someday . Alot of games we only have one copy of so it makes the GAMECUBE look even more starved, especially if the game is late, comes back messed up or doesn't get returned at all. Then we pull games for sale way too fast on GAMECUBE making the system again look bleak in comparrison. When a new game comes in on all three systems, we get the GAMECUBE version late, in MUCH lower quantities and sometimes we don't even get them at all...and while the PS2 & X-BOX sections keeps growing...Blockbuster forces their GAMECUBE section to have less & less shelf space. And the sad thing is despite all of this there's almost as many active GAMECUBE renters as their are X-BOX renters...and I know that if Blockbuster & Nintendo would just wake up to this FACT then maybe GAMECUBE wouldn't look so bad, maybe third party games would sell better 'cos they can be rented first.
It's late and I had alot on my mind when it came to Nintendo "reps" so sorry I kept going on & on. Point is...I could be a much better Nintendo rep even though I have no sort of training in that feild of work...I just *know* it!
I have talked to managers, district leaders and even higher ups at Blockbuster and have yet to get a solid answer on how the rental sector works with games. I mean, when we get 20 Smashing Drives on GAMECUBE and *NO* Zelda 4 Swords it makes me wonder if they even do research or pick titles/quantities from a hat. I know, that before Nintendo even launched GAMECUBE retailers & Blockbuster pretty much had it pegged in their minds that only kid games will rent/sell on GAMECUBE, let's ignore the sports and mainstream and the mature titles on the system and go for the bright & colorful cover boxes when choosing which games to carry. And if a Nintendo rep with ANY brains would just step into Blockbuster (hell any gaming related establishment) and look at the GAMECUBE section they would see why they are in third place and they would see why their image is so bad. The one Nintendo rep I talked to (met him at Meijer) did nothing...it was like as if he was getting a free ride from Nintendo and just sitting back and letting the Nintendo name do all the work. And going into other retailers/rental chains I see the same representation...the laid back "let the name sell it" stance...pffft...most people could care less about the name especially if it isn't backed up with something.
Take this to the topic at hand, if the same "reps" that they have (or, should I say DON'T have) going out and making sure GAMECUBE/Nintendo are getting proper representation are the same kind of "reps" they have checking up on third party relations then it should be no surprize that they're in the situation they're in. They seriously need to get ACTIVE reps, reps who will ask the question what can I do to make Nintendo look better...'cos that's their job.
My Blockbuster specifically, when they tell us to work on cleaning up the games (tiddying them up, etc) GAMECUBE is always the last to get done and in most cases doesn't get done, so we have a trashed GAMECUBE section with missing, damaged, cover-boxless, etc. games stuffed in the back of the games section like someday . Alot of games we only have one copy of so it makes the GAMECUBE look even more starved, especially if the game is late, comes back messed up or doesn't get returned at all. Then we pull games for sale way too fast on GAMECUBE making the system again look bleak in comparrison. When a new game comes in on all three systems, we get the GAMECUBE version late, in MUCH lower quantities and sometimes we don't even get them at all...and while the PS2 & X-BOX sections keeps growing...Blockbuster forces their GAMECUBE section to have less & less shelf space. And the sad thing is despite all of this there's almost as many active GAMECUBE renters as their are X-BOX renters...and I know that if Blockbuster & Nintendo would just wake up to this FACT then maybe GAMECUBE wouldn't look so bad, maybe third party games would sell better 'cos they can be rented first.
It's late and I had alot on my mind when it came to Nintendo "reps" so sorry I kept going on & on. Point is...I could be a much better Nintendo rep even though I have no sort of training in that feild of work...I just *know* it!
Come on jarrod... I swear I have to track your posts just to make sure you keep things on the up & up.
Do you Nintendo guys pull this on every damn game? ToS had a ton of advertising. Commercials, contests, store displays, and print ads in every gaming mag and tons of non gaming mags. It's been one of the most heavily advertised games this year.
Isn't that the point? MS does a great job of getting these extra features while Nintendo fails to convince developers that the GC version should have extra features. SCII is a prime example of extra features that can benefit developers. MS usually tries to get time exclusives (Splinter Cell) and extra content (Prince of Persia) to gather more attention for their version. They also usually get the benefit of better graphics, 5.1, and 480P.
Why are Nintendo fans so quick to throw out sports games? It's the biggest genre in gaming.
Do you Nintendo guys pull this on every damn game? ToS had a ton of advertising. Commercials, contests, store displays, and print ads in every gaming mag and tons of non gaming mags. It's been one of the most heavily advertised games this year.
Isn't that the point? MS does a great job of getting these extra features while Nintendo fails to convince developers that the GC version should have extra features. SCII is a prime example of extra features that can benefit developers. MS usually tries to get time exclusives (Splinter Cell) and extra content (Prince of Persia) to gather more attention for their version. They also usually get the benefit of better graphics, 5.1, and 480P.
Why are Nintendo fans so quick to throw out sports games? It's the biggest genre in gaming.
Nintendo is better at getting exclusives and support from Japanese developers and Microsoft is better at getting that sort of support from western developers. Not a huge surprise. It's a matter of what you would rather have. I prefer Namco, Sega and Capcom to UBI Soft, Midway and Eidos.
Sudeki had all that besides any sort of contest (at least that I'm aware of)... both games were primairily advertised in gaming outlets however (print media, websites, retail) rather than any sort of mainstream outlets (TVads, non game print media, etc). Symphonia's advertsing was pretty limited though, hardly one of the most pushed games this year. Hell, it's ad campaign was closer to Breakdown than Ninja Gaiden.jedimike said:
Nintendo also grabs time exclusives (Rayman 3, Sonic Heroes, Tales of Symphonia, etc) and looks for extra content (usually that winds up being GBA connectivity based unfortunately)... still though, the majority of the time, most things being equal, GC & XBox games usually are in the same range, less than half of what a game can expect on PS2.jedimike said:
Who's throwing out sports, I've repeatedly acknowledged XBox's advatage in the genre. And by extension, PS2 has a proportinately larger advantage over XBox in sports too... the problem here is scale. Somehow Microsoft PR's managed to convince the media and casuals they're essentially on equal footing with Sony and a strong second when the reailty of hardware and software sales in the US tends to be PS2 >>>>>> XBox > GC. Worldwide they're in dead heat with Nintendo.jedimike said:
Btw, happen to have total XBox software sales from Microsoft's June 2004 report? I'm curious?
Forget about advertising and all that... The key difference is that Tales was an installment in established franchise from a proven RPG developer and didn't suck. The sales of both reflected that.jarrod said:
Nintendo's timed exclusives don't sell as well, that's the problem. Add all three of those Cube examples up and they wouldn't match Splinter Cell's Xbox sales. Also, I doubt that most of the time the third party sales are the same... There's got to be a reason that developers are leaving Nintendo platforms. Development costs & port complexity are another factor. GameCube poses a more difficult hurdle than Xbox in those areas.
Unless you're comparing third-party software sales on both platforms, I don't see how this is relevent.
SantaCruZer said:
There's a big difference between what a corporate PR mouthpiece like Moore says in interviews with the press and what a company representative says off the record to talent that he's supposed to be courting, if he has an iota of common sense. Particularly when 'Because we're Nintendo' can also be read as, 'Because we're a company that's trailing a good distance behind the current leader in this market, and we intend to head into the next hardware generation by attempting to sell consumers on unproven 'innovations' while conventional styles of hardware and software are still doing brisk business in the West.' Nintendo's reps need to convince developers that they're worth passing over other companies for, that their more experimental approach to the market is going to yield greater profits than they would earn by supporting any other company. 'Because we're Nintendo' isn't the kind of answer that's going to convince developers who aren't currently big on Nintendo to have a change of heart, and a change of heart amongst third party developers is what Nintendo really needs to strive for.
A rep who'd say something like that really needs to be let go--he may feel passionately about his company, but he's not serving his company's best interests by making statements like that.
Even though the developer's comments were a tad out of line.
Seriously, why would he want to develope for Nintendo ?
You tell me where the incentive is ?
And that's what he's waiting for, a good response from Nintendo.
Anyone with any common sense will develope for Sony, if they want to make money.
In both territories. i.e. Asia and the West.
Pc developers will swing in favour of Microsoft.
Nintendo will end up developing for themselves in the end.
The chances that Revolution will make a come back are slim to none.
They have been on a downslide since N64 and continue to slip into thier own nieche.
The only advantage Nintendo has going for it is their 1st party software, and
the fact that Xbox didn't take over their market in Japan, so they will just continue
to plod along just like in this generation. I'm not counting the fact that they have the handheld market sewn up in this instance.
. . . but you never know
Zenny said:
The arrogance is with the developer here not Nintendo. I dont think Nintendo rep could have done anything in this case. Some poeple make up their minds beforehand without any solid foundations. Most of the companies with these atitudes tend to suffer in the long run.
JayFro said:
The PSP is the biggest example of arrogance this generation.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Can't see what's wrong with the dev's statement. I mean, they have to risk a lot by choosing to support a platform or not and which to support...a decision that isn't taken so lightly. If he/she thinks they've got a better deal on the other platform(s), then by all means, it's their right. They're the ones making decisions using their own money to back up their gamble.
SolidSnakex
Member
Deg said:
Developers base their start up on each system based on the previous system, that's how its always been. The GC and N64 have been nightmares for 3rd parties in terms of sales. So they've got a right to wonder why they should even bother with the Revolution at this point.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Deg said:
Ummm...how in the hell is that arrogance? It's a business decision...if they choose to support MS/Sony instead of Nintendo, it's probably for reasons they find to be important. I don't think it's all politics, like it is on message boards. And in case you did not notice, games can take anywhere from 18 months to 3-4 years to be done and in the can. Next-gen software development and R&D is well underway for many. Games can cost anywhere from $1-10+ million and that's a lot of cash and time invested for a publisher/developer. They're the ones who have to make their decisions carefully and stick to them.
Nintendo's got to prove to games makers that their system is worth gambling on. The only arrogance I'm seeing is in statements that people on the outside -- you -- make when you call them arrogant for not supporting a specific system. It's their money and their time on the line. If Revolution turns out to be something that they feel is worth investing into, then I'm sure they will.
MightyHedgehog said:
I think you'll be surprised at how many decisions are made with emotion in this world rather than smart and thorough thinking.
No one is disputing this. Its getting harder for smaller companies and more 'suitable' for larger comapnies. Ofcourse everyone loves to see costs down.
and you think i am being arrogant. lol. Its their choice but their statement is highly arrogant. The 'why in the hell' statement is proof of that. But of course according to you its a highly professional thing to say.
SolidSnakex
Member
"The PSP is the biggest example of arrogance this generation."
How is the PSP arrogance? Because Sony would like to have a part of the handheld market too?
How is the PSP arrogance? Because Sony would like to have a part of the handheld market too?
SolidSnakex
Member
Deg said:The bit you are missing is how they are going about it
So explain how it's arrogance. What are they donig exactly that makes it arrogant?
MightyHedgehog
Member
Jesus, man! Does everyone have to be so 'professional' when talking? People are fucking people. They don't all have to be reserved and 'respectful.'
Nintendo representative asks someone if they are interested in development/publishing on their system.
The dev/pub asks a good question, regardless of what you may think of it. (Why you over the other guys?)
Rep says nothing to sell his company's system on them.
End of story.
MightyHedgehog said:
You dont have to be respectful to be professional
A good question or a rude rejection?
i find it amusing you are even calling it a question.I dont think reps can say anything like the developer head just did
He probably would have been instructed about what to do in this case however. I dont think he did Deg said:
The purpose of the thread was to point out Nintendo's high-handed, arrogant attitude towards the third-party developers they should be courting right now. What did you expect? Posts like, 'ROFLMAO! That fool! Is he blind? It's obvious to everyone--except this idiot of a dev, apparently--that Nintendo will be an unstoppable juggernaut in the next generation, and he should be grovelling for the chance to have his company's pathetic games appear on Nintendo's exalted system beside such luminaries as Mario and Pikmin! THUS HATH REGGIE SPOKEN, AND THUS SHALL IT BE!' Thankfully, most people aren't quite that deluded.
First, Deg is obviously one of those posters who likes to be rude and uses winky-smilies to attempt and get away with it.
Second, it's nice to see a developer tell Nintendo how it is. Usually, everyone is so enamored with Nintendo in some ridiculous way that all they have to do is trot out Miyamoto carrying a sword and a shield and say the word "Zelda" and star-struck game journalists and developers drop their jaws to the floor and forget all about Nintendo's failure to keep itself a market-leader - a fact that will extinguish home console versions of those beloved franchises faster than any fading nostalgia.
Second, it's nice to see a developer tell Nintendo how it is. Usually, everyone is so enamored with Nintendo in some ridiculous way that all they have to do is trot out Miyamoto carrying a sword and a shield and say the word "Zelda" and star-struck game journalists and developers drop their jaws to the floor and forget all about Nintendo's failure to keep itself a market-leader - a fact that will extinguish home console versions of those beloved franchises faster than any fading nostalgia.
I'm a pretty big Nintendo fan, but the Nintendo rep was 100% wrong in this case. Third parties sure as hell don't need Nintendo. Nintendo needs third parties. I don't even care about third party games, since I'm all about the Nintendo love, but their consoles have to do well enough so they stay in business. If they go under, where the hell will I get my Miyamoto games?