Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I take you didn't see last week's episode.
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*NO BOOK SPOILERS* Game of Thrones - Season 2 - Sundays on HBO (read rules in OP)
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I take you didn't see last week's episode.
What episode is that? I want to rewatch it..I had him pegged since this scene
Douche chills.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
S1's You Win or You Die .
Maybe its just been lost in the transition to television but I didnt really buy into Theon's sudden switch in allegiance. Retrospectively its easy to see now that Theon was always slightly unsure about his place with the Starks but considering how loyal he appeared to Rob Stark in Season 1 and in parts at the beginning of Season 2 it appears that the betrayal has been all too easy for him. I still sense that there will be redemption for him in some form. He deserves to die in any case.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
speaking about what has aired only I think he comes off relatively the same in the books. I thought he was an OK guy at the start, then he pulls a dickhead move and turns out to be a mildly conflicted prick who desperately wants to be 'the man' and fails at every turn. (as seen in any scene with his sister or the boat guy telling him everyone has to pay 'the iron price')
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Such a good scene. Agreed.
Jamie: "What was the name of that bastard boy...?"
Cat: "Brienne....."
Jamie: "No...that wasn't it..."
lmao
BobTheFork
Member
I'll disagree. I think the scenes he had with his Father and Sister sold it very well. He went home for the first time since he was taken and they didn't give a shit at all he was there. They had basically moved on, they had their own plans, and they didn't care about Rob's offer. He had gone on about his family a few times and it clearly bothered him that they didn't feel he was part of it any longer (maybe he didn't feel he was either) that small scene where he burned his later to Rob was a nice touch. They have certainly sold the conflict he felt, but maybe his sudden brutal change in attitude wasn't come accross as well.
walbertsmith
Member
It makes sense.... and it wasn't a sudden switch. Since the television medium doesn't really allow us to "hear" a character's thoughts (like how books allow), I thought that scene with him burning up the letter to Robb a few episodes back was really powerful.
It's obvious that the theme of "family loyalty" is hammered home time and time again throughout these various houses and their different dynamics. Like Tyrion, who pretty much detests his sister and father (and has a push-and-pull relationship with his brother), but his loyalty to his family remains so strong despite the vitriol he faces from the two most vocal members of it.
The Greyjoys are no different. Like you said, he's always been unsettled with the Starks but he's loyal to Robb. He also asked for leave from Robb with the full and honest intention of rallying the Greyjoys to the Stark's war effort. But he realized things were done differently at Pyke... the "iron price"... his father favoring his sister's accomplishments over order of birth... gaining the respect of his men (earned, not entitled)... and the pivotal moment where his first mate urged him to take the life of Rodrik to prove ruthlessness to his men.
Theon's turn was not "sudden" in the slightest. It took several key events before he could fully realize that there was only one way to gain acceptance in the only house where he truly belonged... and it resulted in the tragically charred bodies of innocent children.
I'll just put up a reminder then:
This thread is not supposed to have any talking about the books. Zero. You can indeed talk about book 1, but book 2 almost "doesn't exist." It sucks that people are being insufferable in the real thread. And people have been mostly fine so far here. Just please take note of these rules.
SPOILER RULES:
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- Once something airs in the US on the East Coast, it's fair game. Feel free to discuss anything that has aired without using spoiler tags.
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The bottom line is that this thread was created for people that haven't read the books to enjoy and discuss the television show. Keep their interests in mind and let them enjoy the show on their own terms without constantly pestering them. In general, there isn't a good reason for book readers to post in this thread. Thanks for your help.
I rewatched the last episode... this has to be my favourite episode so far in all honestly. The dialogue is excellent and the acting is superb on all sides. It's amazing how almost each scene gives me chills. I think this episode was more about humanizing the perceived villains of the show, because that's what they did, and it was excellent (except Jeoffry of course...)
And again, like everyone else has already stated, Jamie is a bloody awesome actor. Definitely my favourite scene the entire episode, or rather the entire season.
And again, like everyone else has already stated, Jamie is a bloody awesome actor. Definitely my favourite scene the entire episode, or rather the entire season.
I liked how he was preoccupied with Brienne. "Where did you find this beast?" and "Is that a woman?"
Nizz
Member
Yeah, pretty rude of the dude. lol
She has a commanding presence though.Caught up with the last two episodes.
Pretty amazing stuff, a few random considerations:
-Did they eat/rip a guy apart in episode 6? Holy shit that took my by surprise.
-The shaman dude in Qarth is amazing stuff, i like how they handle magic stuff in the series, kinda like in Conan, it has more impact this way, rather than having mages casting shit left and right.
-No Varys is sad, he's my favorite character.
-Arya being too reckless with the Lannister there, it's gonna end badly.
-I don't get the hate for Sansa, she's naive, but it's not really her fault, infact, she's in a pretty shitty situation right now and she's taking it better than i would.
-I hate Jon Snow.. i don't know if i hate the actor or the character, but his face is just annoying to me.
-SMH at Theon, what a dumb ass.
Pretty amazing stuff, a few random considerations:
-Did they eat/rip a guy apart in episode 6? Holy shit that took my by surprise.
-The shaman dude in Qarth is amazing stuff, i like how they handle magic stuff in the series, kinda like in Conan, it has more impact this way, rather than having mages casting shit left and right.
-No Varys is sad, he's my favorite character.
-Arya being too reckless with the Lannister there, it's gonna end badly.
-I don't get the hate for Sansa, she's naive, but it's not really her fault, infact, she's in a pretty shitty situation right now and she's taking it better than i would.
-I hate Jon Snow.. i don't know if i hate the actor or the character, but his face is just annoying to me.
-SMH at Theon, what a dumb ass.
Jay Shadow
Member
I'm pretty sure that would narrow it down to the actor.
I'm the same on Sansa. I don't like her, but she's been given to an enemy family and is in constant danger. And she's a child. She's powering through it well.
I was starting to sour on Jon this season until the most recent episode when we were reminded that he's still decently young. it was then I realized what I disliked about him was his false sense of assuredness masking naivete, which is really a part of his character. he's a young man in another terrible situation trying to act like he's sure of what he's doing when he has no idea what to do at all. It's not necessarily endearing in the ways Tyrion playing people like kazoos or Arya bantering with one of her biggest enemies are, but it's relatable.
Yeah, i should cut Jon some slack too, when i say "his face" i mean his general 'about to cry' expression, not necessarily his face shape itself, so the way speaks and such.
It looks like he patronizing on everyone, while bitching about it.
It's more of a feeling than a dislike for the character's actions.
"Ugh, why doesn't everybody aknowledge that i know better".
But yeah, he's young and naive too, in his own way.
It looks like he patronizing on everyone, while bitching about it.
It's more of a feeling than a dislike for the character's actions.
"Ugh, why doesn't everybody aknowledge that i know better".
But yeah, he's young and naive too, in his own way.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
I've watched episode 7 like four times already. So, so good.
I don't think Theon's turn in allegiance is that jarring but his sudden bloodthirstiness comes off as a bit strange. You have him burning the letter to Robb Stark one day - which was a good scene and communicated his hesitation very well - and suddenly he is violently hacking off heads from people he grew up with and burning small children alive. That seems to have come about largely because he was being mocked by his crew and wanted to appear rough in front of them, but it's a bit much (or rather a bit too quick) especially given that he was on the verge of warning Robb.
I don't think they delineated that extreme transformation as effectively as they could have but I'll chalk that up to the show's limited time to convey these things.
He comes off as very insecure and as someone who has always been longing for acceptance.
I feel like he embraced the Greyjoy's way because he never fully felt accepted with the Starks and after his return to the iron islands he decided that was the only place he could win true acceptance and he sought out to win his fathers approval and also to match and exceed his sister who had so far become his fathers favorite.
He knew to ultimately do that he had to have his men accept him and to accomplish a great feat. He accomplished that feat by taking winterfell but now he needed to win the respect of the iron islands as the next step in the process......I feel like a mix of peer pressure, a perversion of his upbringing from the Starks and that desire for acceptance which has led to an overcompensation in his actions and responses is what led to the rodrick scene.....
The children is where those manifestations went to another level. He jumped on that slippery slope with rodrick and couldn't stop himself at that point, rodrick was where he took the step off that cliff and got way over his head and now there was no going back. I don't think the transformation was too quick or jarring, I honestly think it was handeled extraordinarily well so far.
Personally I don't think Theon had a "transformation." He made a decision to side with his family, and after that point he couldn't turn back at all. It just shows you that in this world that's the sort of hard line honor sort of stance you have to take. If you waver at all, you'll be dead. It's especially true for him, since the Greyjoys seem to be even more hardline and no-nonsense about anything. Their thing seems to be ruthlessness. In casting his lot with them he had no choice but to continue. And I think Theon's decision really highlights family in this world. Even though he went to his father and was pretty well shit on by his father and sister, he still chose them, because they're family. That's where his honor is. That's how important being a Lord is, not just to Theon himself, but in the world.
After that choice there was no turning back. If he wavered, Robb would still likely kill him for betraying them. And his sister and father would likely have even less mercy on him either if he did that and they found him first. And even with that looming over him, he did still waver a bit. He didn't want to chop that one guy's head off. He had to be convinced of it.
It was probably handled about as well as it could have been given the show's scope in plot and characters, and limited time per season.
Ultimately there didn't appear to be a significant amount of time between Theon burning the letter and then basically going batshit crazy. Remember that he fully wrote and signed the letter first, which showed that he was at one point fully willing to betray one family for another. He goes from someone who conveys that sort of sensible introspection to a guy who makes Joffrey seem empathetic.
The quickness of the plotting makes it come across more that Theon basically decapitated Rodrick because his men were mocking his leadership rather than anything else, and then he descended further into madness afterwards. He ended up giving one of them a beatdown last ep which is a more understandable response to that sort of transgression than his other actions. That beating is also intended to communicate the changed, less-meek Theon, but there's a world of difference between that and the other stuff he's done.
Ultimately there didn't appear to be a significant amount of time between Theon burning the letter and then basically going batshit crazy. Remember that he fully wrote and signed the letter first, which showed that he was at one point fully willing to betray one family for another. He goes from someone who conveys that sort of sensible introspection to a guy who makes Joffrey seem empathetic.
The quickness of the plotting makes it come across more that Theon basically decapitated Rodrick because his men were mocking his leadership rather than anything else, and then he descended further into madness afterwards. He ended up giving one of them a beatdown last ep which is a more understandable response to that sort of transgression than his other actions. That beating is also intended to communicate the changed, less-meek Theon, but there's a world of difference between that and the other stuff he's done.
I think him writing out the whole letter and then going off the deep end just demonstrates how far you have to go for whoever you align yourself with. It shows that in this world there are deep consequences for any decision you make. I personally still see glimmers of disgust, fear, and panic in the actor's face while he's doing this stuff. I can tell that they're trying to portray it as something he has to do. Yes he gets lost in it all, but that is because he is a pretty big asshole to begin with (see his scene with Osha in the first season).
It's the show doing a poor job conveying the amount of time between scenes and the vast distances characters have to travel. That's why I asked earlier in the thread if people bother to look at a map of Westeros instead of relying on just the title sequence.
Note on the spoiler: It's following the rule "Anything that hasn't aired yet should be spoiler tagged including information from HBO previews, loglines, trailers, interviews, and a few other places." since it hasn't aired but it's the map from the OP to compare a couple of things.
http://i.imgur.com/ldK6c.jpg
Path 1->2 - Stannis is somewhere along that path when we find out he's 5 days away from King's Landing. He's sailing through open water the entire way.
Path 3->4 - Theon's journey from Pyke to Winterfell.
Black line = open water
Blue line = up a river
Red line = across land
If it'll take Stannis 5 days to finish his journey (and who knows where along that path he is at the moment) then how much longer would it have taken Theon to get to Winterfell from Pyke? We have no idea because the show is terrible at showing us that.
Path 1->2 - Stannis is somewhere along that path when we find out he's 5 days away from King's Landing. He's sailing through open water the entire way.
Path 3->4 - Theon's journey from Pyke to Winterfell.
Black line = open water
Blue line = up a river
Red line = across land
If it'll take Stannis 5 days to finish his journey (and who knows where along that path he is at the moment) then how much longer would it have taken Theon to get to Winterfell from Pyke? We have no idea because the show is terrible at showing us that.
Yeah looking at that map is helpful. I can't fault the show too much because they're severely constrained, especially by time. There are so many characters and individual arcs and plotlines to go through that they can't afford to spare much time on certain things.
In the other thread you have people saying they should truncate even more things from the books to focus more on certain characters and plots. That's pretty much the only way they could really do it, but then you'd have even more complaints about stuff from the books missing. The writers are in a difficult position.
Though since they're splitting the next book into two seasons, that should become less of an issue. It'll be interesting to see how that works out. 20 episodes should give them ample time to better convey these things.
In the other thread you have people saying they should truncate even more things from the books to focus more on certain characters and plots. That's pretty much the only way they could really do it, but then you'd have even more complaints about stuff from the books missing. The writers are in a difficult position.
Though since they're splitting the next book into two seasons, that should become less of an issue. It'll be interesting to see how that works out. 20 episodes should give them ample time to better convey these things.
That's it. He didn't really want to kill Rodrik but was told he had to for anyone to respect him. Once that was over with, it was past the point of no return. None of the Starks would ever give a shit about him again so might as well go full evil to preserve his respect I guess.
Do you remember this talk between Jaime and Jory in the first season?
Jaime: I saw the youngest of the Greyjoy lads at Winterfell. It was like seeing a shark on a mountain top.
Jory: Theon. Hes a good lad.
Jaime: I doubt it.
Haven't watched the first season in a good while, but yeah, it's quite clear especially at this point that Theon is a pretty despicable person. I just thought the sheer extremity of his turn was notable but they did plant some seeds showing that he was never exactly that great a guy.
I do like the subtle things the actor does to show that he second-guesses his decisions as he's made them, i.e. the lowering of his head after last ep's finale. Though with Rodrick, after the initial hesitation, I was struck at how he just angrily kicked the guy's head off, heh.
Haven't watched the first season in a good while, but yeah, it's quite clear especially at this point that Theon is a pretty despicable person. I just thought the sheer extremity of his turn was notable but they did plant some seeds showing that he was never exactly that great a guy.
I do like the subtle things the actor does to show that he second-guesses his decisions as he's made them, i.e. the lowering of his head after last ep's finale. Though with Rodrick, after the initial hesitation, I was struck at how he just angrily kicked the guy's head off, heh.
I really feel like kicking the head off was more desperation. He failed utterly to decapitate him on the first 2 swings. He didn't want to decapitate him at all, and so for it to take longer was even more agonizing for Theon. He had to act drastically to get himself out of this situation that he didn't want to be in.
Boy, all the different views on Theon really mean they've either made his charcater sufficiently complex or they suck at developing him.
I thought they did a great job of showing his character is, above all, driven by emotion (This explains the shifts in mood. He NEVER thinks rationally). Secondly, he is a Greyjoy and once he linked back up with that horrible group of people, he reverted back to his roots that were already showing.
I thought they did a great job of showing his character is, above all, driven by emotion (This explains the shifts in mood. He NEVER thinks rationally). Secondly, he is a Greyjoy and once he linked back up with that horrible group of people, he reverted back to his roots that were already showing.
I just want to note that I wasn't really complaining about how they were developing Theon, but more trying to say that some of his actions initially took me by surprise (though I also haven't seen Season 1 since it aired, so I forgot about a couple of the bits regarding him).
I know with more time they could have done more especially in conveying the span of time, and I think people have brought up very good points regarding his development.
I know with more time they could have done more especially in conveying the span of time, and I think people have brought up very good points regarding his development.
Thanks for that info as I wouldn't have noticed otherwise.
Man, Quarth (sp?) isn't the magnificent city that we were lead to believe now is it?
Thanks Plywood.
Sword Familiar
178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
Yeah, I immediately reacted on the sword and thought to myself "that sword won't cut it (pardon the pun). It would definitely take more than one chop to decapitate someone with it.". I was pleased to see that they had thought of that.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I love that fat fuck and his little hand mannerisms. RIP, you pompous douchebag.
I agree. I feel the same way about him as I always did, but I now see better reasons why others may view him differently. I think it's to the show writers' credit that they did what they did with him given the constraints. it makes the show more interesting since we don't know if he's gone full dark side or turn against the emperor (OK, that was the last Anakin analogy...today).
Battersea Power Station
Member
I just caught up. I thought it was a poorly paced episode, with some good scenes here and there. The Jon Snow and wildling thing is not compelling to me in the slightest, yet it seems it got the most screen time. Yes, she's teasing him and playing with him; we got it. There was like 10 minutes of that, while seemingly more significant things got rushed through in just a couple of scenes.
Also, it seems so easy to fool/betray/distract anyone on this show and take a town or castle, that you have to wonder how kings and lords can ever last.
Also, it seems so easy to fool/betray/distract anyone on this show and take a town or castle, that you have to wonder how kings and lords can ever last.
The thing is, filming GoT NOW is actually at least somewhat possible. They simply lacked the technology to do a lot of things that we can now do that make it more viable (though, of course they still have some issues with time & money). GRRM has acknowledged as much, that that particular comment is tied to the era he said it in and doesn't completely apply nowadays.
I wish they had split this season into two, or filmed twice as many episodes, same scenes just more dialogue. Something like last nights episode, with maybe a little more action. I've felt a little rushed in some of the episodes earlier in the season.
There was some great character development (or cementing) going on last night.
Anyway it really seems like the writers are coming into their own. I mean the writing has always been good, but last night it was excellent. Long may it continue.
There was some great character development (or cementing) going on last night.
Anyway it really seems like the writers are coming into their own. I mean the writing has always been good, but last night it was excellent. Long may it continue.
Books are able to convey the passage of time a lot better than a TV show or movie. Example: In Lord of the Rings, Gandalf tells Frodo what the ring really is in April. Frodo wakes up in Rivendell after the Wraith attack on Weathertop in October. What seems like a couple of days in the movie was actually 6 months of time passed.
So in this show, it seems like Theon is "suddenly" changing. That landmass is huge, and it wasn't like they took their ships, landed, and took over Winterfell that fast. I'm not sure how the books handled it to be honest...I've only read the 1st one. But based on other book-to-TV/movie epic tales, passage of time always gets borked somehow.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
When it comes to Theon , he's a real dick but it seems to me initially he always thought there would be a chance to return him home the Iron Isle's to some form of glory. So when the opportunity came he wanted to be this great guy who brought Winterfell and the Iron Isle's together and get praise from both sides. With that done he is once again in good standing with his homeland and doesnt betray Rob. In the end he realized his people have no interest in that and so he chooses to side with his homeland, but it definitely comes off as him being regretful and having pause, he had to compartmentalize the guilt of double crossing Rob.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
This is great, the more I look at it the more I laugh
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Theon has been a dick since day one. His abusive attitude towards Ros was pretty damning (she did play him well, though) as well as that "you gonna get raped" moment with Osha. The part with the puppies also made clear from day one that he is a complete douche nozzle. The only thing that made his transformation hard to believe was his fervorous display of loyalty towards Robb when he was declared the King in the North.
On a completely unrelated note, I just noticed that Kit Harington was trying so hard not to laugh his ass off during his conversation with Ygritte. Although in all fairness, I can only sympathize with him; Rose Leslie's teasing was hilarious. She's got the asshole ginger part like nobody else could.
I love this girl already.
Edit: This part.
On a completely unrelated note, I just noticed that Kit Harington was trying so hard not to laugh his ass off during his conversation with Ygritte. Although in all fairness, I can only sympathize with him; Rose Leslie's teasing was hilarious. She's got the asshole ginger part like nobody else could.
I love this girl already.
Edit: This part.
walbertsmith
Member
Winterfell was entirely plausible though... no "distraction" was needed. Robb's war with the Lannisters required all his able men, Theon knew Robb's crippled brother was in charge and the attack on Torrhen's Square meant that any remaining garrison at the castle would be gone. This was a very specific situation that leveraged insider information in order to take over the castle.
What town or castle has the show portrayed that was taken over "easy" due to distraction? Because Winterfell definitely isn't one.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Might be talking just about Ned getting axed, Robb's armies tearing everyone a new one, the 13 being randomly murdered, etc. I think it's just time constraints though. They can't just show every single battle in full gory detail/dedicate time to what skinny warlock/rich big dude are plotting behind everyone's back.
Nice catch on his facial expression. I checked out his Wiki page and had a good laugh:
Battersea Power Station
Member
Winterfell got taken in like 5 minutes by 1 ship of undisciplined dudes -- 6 archers from the castle windows probably could've prevented that. They couldn't leave 6 guys behind? It's just rash and really careless, even when fighting a battle in another town. Heck, I know that from playing Age of Empires and I don't have any battle education like Bram and his advisors do.
King Joffry was almost killed by a villager. Why does that kind of access to the King exist?
Robb's man guarding Jaime was played by like a 4th grader's trick. Good jailers?
Jon Snow can't deal with being teased without losing his bearings and attentiveness for 5 minutes. He's had training in swordsmanship but not in discipline, safety, and security?
(maybe?) Bran, Rickon, and the wildling, the latter of which is a trickster and survivor, not having a good plan to hide and escape.
Qarth's ruling party dismisses a magician and warlock as a charlatan and likely admits him to the 13 with no care in the world: "we're the greatest city ever and a model of stability and security, but... ehh, we've got a good feeling about this guy."
Mother of dragons being absolutely careless by leaving her one valued possession, her one reason for survival behind.
It's just a clusterfuck of irresponsibility, incapability, ineptitude, happenstance, and unawareness. They're things that I hate to see driving a plot, as it makes it seem lazy. I want to see a story driven by intent and proper execution.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Can you give breaking bad this treatment?
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