Support NeoGAF

[vas_a_morir]

I've read about what goes on over there. It wouldn't change my position that the US should not give them food.

yeah, for some reason, everybody's first response to someone they disagree with is "You don't know North Korea like I do!"

When I see the stuff they say about the American people, the soldiers, and the racist caricatures they use in their propaganda, I find it hard to imagine giving them food.

 

[Atilac]

Whatever food we give him he'll probably just feed his military, which he has done in the past. The people who are going to starve to death, will continue to starve to death, we need not feed his armies.

 

[J2d]

So let millions of innocent men, women, and children die because you don't like the leader? What makes you any better person then Kim Jon il when you say that?

It's not so much about the leader as it is living in one of the closest things to hell on earth. Id rather spare people from it by not being born at all at the moment.

 

[Ashes]

And when we give them food, he'll go on TV and say how "The USA has given the dear leader food because the dear leader is just that awesome."


It is such a lose-lose proposition. Let people starve or give support for Lil' Kim.


It really does suck. There is no military option. There is no revolution that can happen from within. Just sucks.

Okay I'll state what I believe. I believe that short term thinking is not what is needed here.

I'm sure prime ministers and presidents shake hands with the devil all the time whilst in office.

N. Korea have brought themselves to the negotiation table. We have to look for solutions that allow for a longer term solution based on the policy that more food is given based on good behaviour etc. Not doing anything is a waste of the opportunity.

I'm not sure that this is best way to do this; but I do not believe in military intervention as a part of a foreign policy.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Yeah I'm sorry for a regime as fucking horrible as NK I can't agree with supporting them in any way.

Something needs to happen in that region and handing out free food is NOT IT. This is a dictator who has set up de facto concentration camps throughout his country.

People are still going to starve even if we do send anything.

 

[AndyD]

I've read about what goes on over there. It wouldn't change my position that the US should not give them food.

Same here.

I am actually watching that documentary on Netflix, thanks whoever posted it.

Unless they allow red cross or un unfettered access to distribute food to poor, no food should be handed to the government.

 

[mavs]

Make China do it. Or else they can come to the border to get it.

 

[Guardian Bob]

Feed them. Those people deserve better than the hell they are born into.

 

[Majine]

I dont believe in military conquering ( unless absolutely neccesary), denying them food will hopefully eventually force them to open up to the outside.

Also, people will die no matter what. It's past that. Now lets make the decision that is most longterm.

 

[JayDubya]

Okay I'll state what I believe. I believe that short term thinking is not what is needed here.

I'm sure prime ministers and presidents shake hands with the devil all the time whilst in office.

N. Korea have brought themselves to the negotiation table. We have to look for solutions that allow for a longer term solution based on the policy that more food is given based on good behaviour etc. Not doing anything is a waste of the opportunity.

I'm not sure that this is best way to do this; but I do not believe in military intervention as a part of a foreign policy.

I think you're right about short-term thinking.

The problem is I don't think there is an opportunity, here, at all.

I mean that in multiple ways. In one sense, there is never a real opportunity with this regime; they will threaten or beg or do whatever else necessary for aid to keep their government afloat. There is no building good will with North Korea.

And of course, the other way there is no opportunity - there is nothing we could gain from North Korea. They have nothing we want.

 

[KJTB]

This should be up to China.

 

[Hylian7]

I don't buy it.

 

[CrazyDude]

I wonder if there has been any uprising in North Korea that we know nothing about...? Are people really that crushed that they won't or are unable to fight?

 

[Koodo]

Isn't this a good time to ask for something in return for the food? Such as a sliver of transparency from the government, for example.

The world should definitely send food aid their way if the situation is really severe though. "I don't want to support the regime" yada yada yada, it's easy to say that while comfortably sitting behind a computer. While Kim Jon Whatever and his regime deserve to be overthrown and sent to a lonely Antarctic island, this should not come at the price of millions of lives (on top of that, these people won't be enjoying a swift death, to say the least).

 

[345triangle]

But it's not like Kim cares about his people. I think he WILL keep it for himself and his cronies, so it's cut and dry to me:

If we give food, Kim and his cronies dine while the masses starve.
If we don't give food, Kim and his cronies starve with the masses.

Either way, the masses starve, so we are choosing between feeding Kim and not feeding Kim.

um i can assure you that kim jong-il himself is not going hungry at the whim of foreign food aid. furthermore, it's very much in his interest to have a non-starving population, for a variety of obvious reasons.

you guys really think the north korean elite are personally baying for delicious UN food rations so that they can hold an opulent dinner party? i'm not saying that food aid will be perfectly evenly distributed, but come on now.

 

[XMonkey]

you guys really think the north korean elite are personally baying for delicious UN food rations so that they can hold an opulent dinner party? i'm not saying that food aid will be perfectly evenly distributed, but come on now.

The millions of people in their army probably would.

 

[Majine]

Isn't this a good time to ask for something in return for the food? Such as a sliver of transparency from the government, for example.

The world should definitely send food aid their way if the situation is really severe though. "I don't want to support the regime" yada yada yada, it's easy to say that while comfortably sitting behind a computer. While Kim Jon Whatever and his regime deserve to be overthrown and sent to a lonely Antarctic island, this should not come at the price of millions of lives (on top of that, these people won't be enjoying a swift death, to say the least).

You're not going to save milions of lives with pure food aid. Hell, we don't even know if the food goes to the right people.

 

[scotcheggz]

I wonder if there has been any uprising in North Korea that we know nothing about...? Are people really that crushed that they won't or are unable to fight?

I posted a link earlier, but fuck it I'm going to post it again. Read this blog. It will show you how the citizens are and it reports on all the stuff like that. People defecting from farming duty, or going to some big hill to use mobile phones etc.

From reading that, i would say most people who want to do something can't becuase of fear for their families or becuase they're dieing of starvation. People escape, but to do so they have to have an awful lot of money, a lot of luck and they have to forget about the families they leave behind, becuase they'll likely be arrested and sent to "re-education" camps. There is also the possibility that their family would disown them anyway. There is a lot of pressure to comply. Like, A LOT and not just from the government officials.

The millions of people in their army probably would.

Most of the food would probably be sold on the black markets that don't exist. Shhhh!

 

[titiklabingapat]

This is a very simplistic assertion. Here let me try.

If we monitor the food, from source to stomach, than we solve all problems.

Maybe it is simplistic for a reason: It is North Korea. They will not let us 'monitor' it.

 

[Ashes]

I think you're right about short-term thinking.

The problem is I don't think there is an opportunity, here, at all.

I mean that in multiple ways. In one sense, there is never a real opportunity with this regime; they will threaten or beg or do whatever else necessary for aid to keep their government afloat. There is no building good will with North Korea.

And of course, the other way there is no opportunity - there is nothing we could gain from North Korea. They have nothing we want.

Materially nothing to little perhaps. Apart from the so called 'nuke' threats, and the war with it's neighbour, S. Korea.

Philosphically though: A starving North Korean child is still a starving child.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

It's really incredible that Kim Jung-Ill is still in power after decades of starvation. You'd think at some point people would get tired of seeing their friends and relatives die and say enough is enough but it really speaks to the super effective propaganda that they haven't

 

[CrazyDude]

I posted a link earlier, but fuck it I'm going to post it again. Read this blog. It will show you how the citizens are and it reports on all the stuff like that. People defecting from farming duty, or going to some big hill to use mobile phones etc.

From reading that, i would say most people who want to do something can't becuase of fear for their families or becuase they're dieing of starvation. People escape, but to do so they have to have an awful lot of money, a lot of luck and they have to forget about the families they leave behind, becuase they'll likely be arrested and sent to "re-education" camps. There is also the possibility that their family would disown them anyway. There is a lot of pressure to comply. Like, A LOT and not just from the government officials.



Most of the food would probably be sold on the black markets that don't exist. Shhhh!

I'll go take a look at that, thanks!

 

[dojokun]

um i can assure you that kim jong-il himself is not going hungry at the whim of foreign food aid. furthermore, it's very much in his interest to have a non-starving population, for a variety of obvious reasons.

you guys really think the north korean elite are personally baying for delicious UN food rations so that they can hold an opulent dinner party? i'm not saying that food aid will be perfectly evenly distributed, but come on now.

Like XMonkey said right after your post, Kim has a big army and he will just feed his army only. This keeps his military loyal and the masses weak.

 

[SimpleDesign]

Materially nothing to little perhaps. Apart from the so called 'nuke' threats, and the war with it's neighbour, S. Korea.

Philosphically though: A starving North Korean child is still a starving child.

I'd rather give food to one of many other nations with starving children, preferably one that doesn't have an over sized army and isn't threatening my country with nuclear war.

 

[SimpleDesign]

It's really incredible that Kim Jung-Ill is still in power after decades of starvation.

China doesn't want to lose it's buffer.

 

[theignoramus]

I don't want to blame the average NK citizen for this plight, but there is really no other choice but to withhold food aid.

If they get hungry enough, they will rebel and a revolution will take place, I agree.

Wrong. That kind of destitution makes them more dependent on the regime. Iraq in the sanctions era is a case in point; the opposition was crushed because everyone was dependent on the regime for survival.

 

[Tarazet]

The US better not give them food. I'm sorry, but we all know what is going to happen when the food arrives. Kim is going to hold it for himself and use it as leverage to instill his power to the people.

While letting the NK starve to death might be a terrible thing, they at least won't have to suffer living under the regime over their lifetime. This also greatly weakens the military since there will be less people to join the ranks.

I just don't see how it's better to die than to live life, even if it is under a dictator. Yes, there's the possibility that the food will be misappropriated. That doesn't mean we shouldn't take the chance. If we don't send food, then there is no chance it will get to the people it needs instead of merely a slim one. You buy a lottery ticket, you know you might win a million dollars, but even when you don't, you're still supporting your local schools. If we're happy to spend that dollar then we should be happy to try and help a poor oppressed people.

 

[theignoramus]

Aid should be given but only if specific conditions are met. It MUST be monitored by an agreed upon set of NGOs. If the the North doesnt agree to that, then no, we cant give them food to shore up the elites.

 

[theignoramus]

It's not so much about the leader as it is living in one of the closest things to hell on earth. Id rather spare people from it by not being born at all at the moment.

haha. you're a sick fuck, buddy.
(edit: was your ban related to this comment? I hope so)

 

[Ashes]

I'd rather give food to one of many other nations with starving children, preferably one that doesn't have an over sized army and isn't threatening my country with nuclear war.

I got the impression that you are talking about a budget readjustment.

 

[Kapura]

This situation is kind of a game of chicken. The countries that may be able to donate aid will probably try to use this as a bargaining chip for transparency in the NoKo government, but they need to gauge whether the NoKo gov't cares more about sustaining secrecy than the populace.

 

[disco]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8113817/Inside-North-Korea-exclusive-footage.html

So upsetting. They can't do a thing. They don't have the energy to rebel. Very upsetting.

 

[Ashes]

His assertion was simplistic, but assuming that the North Korean government would give us the opportunity to monitor and oversee exactly where that food goes isn't any better.

So we are agreed then. Why are you now arguing what I was arguing? that the assertion was a futile argument.

 

[Forkball]

How is North Korea so bad when you look down below you and see a striving South Korea?

To be fair, some portion of NK's woes come from it's geography. Most of the fertile land for farming is in the south. When Japan colonized Korea, all the agriculture was in the south and the industry was in the north. After the Korean war, North Korea was actually quite prosperous thanks to Soviet aid and a more advanced industrial infrastructure when compared to SK. People from South Korea actually FLED INTO North Korea. Needless to say, this was rather shortsighted.

 

[TacticalFox88]

This article makes Homefront's story all the more laughable.

 

[TheKaeptain]

If would allow someone other than themselves to over see distribution, I wouldn't have problem with our government helping them. Won't happen though.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Giving aid to North Korea is worse than pointless.

Well at least I now know which side of this difficult issue I should come down on.

 

[commedieu]

Why aren't North Korea's friends helping? Seems they are so willing to spend on weapons, but nothing on keeping their peons at least alive..

Iran, Putin, who else can lend a helping hand?

Realistically any Aid given is #1, going into a Red Cross reserve. #2 go to the government. People won't get a thing.

 

[BertramCooper]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8113817/Inside-North-Korea-exclusive-footage.html

So upsetting. They can't do a thing. They don't have the energy to rebel. Very upsetting.

 

[nyong]

No food. It would only go to the soldiers anyhow. Frankly, the hungrier and more upset his Army gets, the less control he has over them.

 

[XMonkey]

So we are agreed then. Why are you now arguing what I was arguing? that the assertion was a futile argument.

I just found it a bit odd that you considered his argument simplistic and then offered up your own point that wasn't much better in terms of simplicity. I agree that it would be great to be able to monitor how the aid is distributed to the people, but that's not something the North Korean government is so willing to oblige.

 

[Ashes]

No food. It would only go to the soldiers anyhow. Frankly, the hungrier and more upset his Army gets, the less control he has over them.

Perhaps you have a point here. Though I'm not sure to what extent, nor what implications this follows.

 

[nyong]

Perhaps you have a point here. Though I'm not sure to what extent, nor what implications this follows.

It could very well be the case that Kimmie-boy is watching the uprising across the globe, realizes that he is unable to keep his soldiers fat and happy (i.e. loyal), and has nervously considered the possibility of dissent spreading amongst his own people.

 

[Ashes]

I just found it a bit odd that you considered his argument simplistic and then offered up your own point that wasn't much better in terms of simplicity. I agree that it would be great to be able to monitor how the aid is distributed to the people, but that's not something the North Korean government is so willing to oblige.

1. I stated the problem with his argument was his narration of it.
2. I said here: let me try this. id est to show how his his point fails.
3. I offered a futile simplistic argument as an example.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

How 'bout spending less money on...oh, I don't know...FUCKING EXPENSIVE NUCLEAR CENTRIFUGES and MISSILE SYSTEMS...and more money on buying grain?

Until then, Dear Leader...FUCK YOU, MY MAN.

 

[TheKaeptain]

How 'bout spending less money on...oh, I don't know...FUCKING EXPENSIVE NUCLEAR CENTRIFUGES and MISSILE SYSTEMS...and more money on buying grain?

Until then, Dear Leader...FUCK YOU, MY MAN.

Logically thought is not Kim's forte.

 

[KingK]

I personally think we should give them food. I mean, yeah, most of it will probably not actually get to the people that need it, but I feel like even if only some of it goes to the people, we should help. Some aid is better than nothing, and could mean life or death for some of them.

 

[Kodiak690]

To those who are wondering why the people don't rise up against the government, I advise you to watch the documentary with Lisa Ling.

Either the people worship Kim Jong Il as a god or they're too scared to do anything, because they're killed at the slightest show of irreverence towards their "Supreme Leader".

After watching the doc, I'm not sure if most people have actually been brainwashed into believing how "great" he is or if they're too weak and afraid to actually do anything else.

I knew NK was bad, but I had no idea that it was as bad as it is. It's unlike any other country on the planet. It's insane.

 

[nyong]

I personally think we should give them food. I mean, yeah, most of it will probably not actually get to the people that need it, but I feel like even if only some of it goes to the people, we should help. Some aid is better than nothing, and could mean life or death for some of them.

We have no assurances that any of the food will make it to those in need. What we do know is that NK has used this food in the past to feed its military. Moreover, we know from history that dictators are only able to remain in power by awarding a select few--who carry out their orders and enforce their rule--privileges (i.e. food/shelter) above the general population. As long as his soldiers are fat and happy, there is little to no chance of a successful revolution ever taking place in NK.

 

[projekt84]

It really is a unique situation in North Korea. It's not your typical case of where everyone hates the boss and just need to realize it at the same time, they genuinely think their leader is great or they're too scared to act.

I don't see anything good in North Korea's future.