North Korea begs for food.

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Giving them aid only exaccerbates the problem.
Either go in and kill Kim Jong Il, or ignore them completely.

CrankyJay said:
People feel safe saying dickish things behind the relative safety of computer anonymity. I don't think of myself as a violent person but if someone suggested starving people to my face they might get punched.
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People feel safe saying dickish things behind the relative safety of computer anonymity. I don't think of myself as a violent person but if someone suggested punching faces to my face they might get punched.
 
nyong said:
We have no assurances that any of the food will make it to those in need. What we do know is that NK has used this food in the past to feed its military.
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It also seems to get sold in markets based on some evidence, obviously same overall problem, and just more evidence it won't go anywhere it should.

The irony is that any that does arrive to civilians is claimed to be the US paying war reparations (I shit you not).
 
It's not that anyone wants NK to starve, other than NK's leaders. Not giving them food is unfortunately a better option than giving food that will only feed the NK army.
 
Ether_Snake said:
If they reformed and stopped investing in their military like idiots, there would be no food problem.

Anyway, if we don't give them food, there will be a revolution, and the regime will be eliminated and the Koreas reunited. So there's your answer.

For shortages always = revolution. Always.
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Mao Zedong and his escapades in China say no.


DomMigs85 said:
They have embassies!?
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How are they supposed to threaten you if no one can hear what they are saying.
 
Branduil said:
It's not that anyone wants NK to starve, other than NK's leaders. Not giving them food is unfortunately a better option than giving food that will only feed the NK army.
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Whatever food was available would have been requisitioned by the army already, assuming that there is some at least. A pretty safe assumption in my opinion in which case its just the people starving.
 
Hylian7 said:
tumblr_lcqvjrIHNU1qewv1lo1_500.jpg


I don't buy it.
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What the fuck is going on in this picture?
 
Kim Jong Il's regime is an unfit parent starving its children.

I generally hate the idea of countries meddling in the affairs of others, but sometimes I question the morality of allowing the North Korean government to continue its crimes against humanity.
 
projekt84 said:
It really is a unique situation in North Korea. It's not your typical case of where everyone hates the boss and just need to realize it at the same time, they genuinely think their leader is great or they're too scared to act.

I don't see anything good in North Korea's future.
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I believe that there are lots of people in Pyongyang that really do buy into the cult of Kim but the millions living out in the middle of nowhere and starving and being forced to work probably don't give a shit.

Also, about that German guy that gave NK the big rabbits, he was promised a visit to help set up a breeding area but he says NK cancelled that trip and he believes that the leadership just ate the rabbits instead of trying to breed them to help feed the country. Typical NK evil.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,475218,00.html
 
nyong said:
We have no assurances that any of the food will make it to those in need. What we do know is that NK has used this food in the past to feed its military. Moreover, we know from history that dictators are only able to remain in power by awarding a select few--who carry out their orders and enforce their rule--privileges (i.e. food/shelter) above the general population. As long as his soldiers are fat and happy, there is little to no chance of a successful revolution ever taking place in NK.
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Yeah, I know there aren't any assurances. But it just feels wrong saying "We're going to let you starve because we don't know that the food would get to you anyway." I feel like even if there's a small chance we could save some innocents from starving, we should try it. It's not like sending them food will cost us a hell of a lot.
The whole situation with North Korea is super depressing and complex though, and I don't see any way for it to get better unless some successor to the throne miraculously decides to actually be a decent leader.
 
Pristine_Condition said:
How 'bout spending less money on...oh, I don't know...FUCKING EXPENSIVE NUCLEAR CENTRIFUGES and MISSILE SYSTEMS...and more money on buying grain?

Until then, Dear Leader...FUCK YOU, MY MAN.
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psh clearly you are looking at this too short term. the international clout gained by a nuclear weapons program will trickle down to maseratis for the common man.
 
leroidys said:
psh clearly you are looking at this too short term. the international clout gained by a nuclear weapons program will trickle down to maseratis for the common man.
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Trickle down economics.

A single tear just rolled down Reagan's rotting cheek.
 
colinisation said:
Whatever food was available would have been requisitioned by the army already, assuming that there is some at least. A pretty safe assumption in my opinion in which case its just the people starving.
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1000:1 odds says Kim Jong Il would stockpile food in order to feed his army for a week instead of feeding his people for a day.

KingK said:
Yeah, I know there aren't any assurances. But it just feels wrong saying "We're going to let you starve because we don't know that the food would get to you anyway." I feel like even if there's a small chance we could save some innocents from starving, we should try it. It's not like sending them food will cost us a hell of a lot.
The whole situation with North Korea is super depressing and complex though, and I don't see any way for it to get better unless some successor to the throne miraculously decides to actually be a decent leader.
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There isn't a small chance that the food would save some innocents but there is a guarantee that giving this regime food would only serve to prop them up further.

There isn't any point in delaying the inevitable. Whether it is now or years from now, millions of North Koreans are going to die once this house of cards starts to crumble.
 
leroidys said:
psh clearly you are looking at this too short term. the international clout gained by a nuclear weapons program will trickle down to maseratis for the common man.
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That seems like a dig at me. Is this a dig at me? because I can play silly too.
 
The region is a lost cause. Once the hate and animosity between the two nations transcended into several generations, a peaceful unifaction is pretty much highly improbable. The ONLY way Kim is giving up his regime is if an outside force takes it from him, forcibly.
 
KingK said:
I personally think we should give them food.
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I don't believe so.

KingK said:
I feel like even if only some of it goes to the people, we should help. Some aid is better than nothing, and could mean life or death for some of them.
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In situations like this, aid is used as a tool of manipulation to further control the people. We'd be in effect giving them another weapon to terrorize the people with. To remind them of who is in control and that resistance is futile. sucks.
 
HeadlessRoland said:
Let them die, helping to perpetuate a nuclear armed twat like North Korea is not beneficial for anyone.
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Let the country starve to death because it has corrupt leadership? Even if we assume that the food is going to go to the Military (it will), and only a tiny quantity will make it to the broader civilian population, it is unethical to let those people starve to death.
 
Rentahamster said:
Authoritarian Communist Dictatorship = bad

Liberal Capitalist Democracy = good
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what part of NK is communist? The part where they share the hunger and misery with all people as equals? because apart from that, I don't think there is even a slim part of communism in there at all.
 
It's easier to say from one's armchair, but really, as unfortunate as it is, the people of North Korea themselves need to fight for a better life, as was done in northern Africa this last two months.

Dropping food is ultimately... well, fruitless.
 
NK is like a real life version of 1984...

I do believe the people will eventually rebel though, dictatorships don't last.
 
dude said:
NK is like a real life version of 1984...

I do believe the people will eventually rebel though, dictatorships don't last.
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Watch the video I posted above. The civilian population of NK largely supports the government (in no small part due to massively successful propaganda campaigns), and many NK citizens who escape out the border into China end up bribing their way back into the country at a later date.

It's a dictatorship that has lasted from the early 1950's until today, it's not about to topple without a drastic shift. Our best hope is that when Kim dies, his son decides not to take after his father and opens ties with the rest of the world. Should this not happen, our only two options will be military intervention (very undesirable) and letting the country fester for a few more decades (very undesirable). It's a giant shit sandwhich any way you cut it, but I reiterate - letting people starve is NOT an ethical solution.
 
vas_a_morir said:
When I see the stuff they say about the American people, the soldiers, and the racist caricatures they use in their propaganda, I find it hard to imagine giving them food.
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Oh no, their slaves don't like us. They deserve death?
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Let the country starve to death because it has corrupt leadership?
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I am not sure where you get the idea that the US and allied nations are under any ethical obligation to feed those that threaten us, who preemptively attack our allies and is a constant nuclear threat. But I can guarantee you its not unethical to refuse to feed ones enemies.

If anything it is unethical to support such a nation instead of allowing it to collapse.
 
Dice said:
Okay, just let us enter the country to distribute it ourselves and monitor its consumption to make sure it isn't taken from the needy.
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This is my plan as well.

Say ok but only if OUR troops distribute it.
 
HeadlessRoland said:
I am not sure where you get the idea that the US and allied nations are under any ethical obligation to feed those that threaten us, who preemptively attack our allies and is a constant nuclear threat. But I can guarantee you its not unethical to refuse to feed ones enemies.

If anything it is unethical to support such a nation instead of allowing it to collapse.
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Looks like JayDuba is gonna have a new acolyte.
 
HeadlessRoland said:
I am not sure where you get the idea that the US and allied nations are under any ethical obligation to feed those that threaten us, who preemptively attack our allies and is a constant nuclear threat. But I can guarantee you its not unethical to refuse to feed ones enemies.

If anything it is unethical to support such a nation instead of allowing it to collapse.
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The civilian population of North Korea threatens us, preemptively attacks our allies and is a constant nuclear threat? Or are you just mindlessly repeating the "the food will ONLY go to the army" meme?

If "letting a nation collapse" consists of letting mass starvation of the civilian population occur, then it is absolutely morally abhorrent to do so.
 
mac said:
Looks like JayDuba is gonna have a new acolyte.
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Yeah dudes! Why dont we feed the world and help hostile nations sustain themselves so they may extend their existence for decades!

Any involvement for humanitarian concerns should be to depose the existing government. If you are not willing to do that you are merely allowing a horrible situation continue. To say nothing of the fact you are feeding the enemies of one of your allies, an ally who is in constant danger and threat of force. Who loses citizens to attacks from N. Korea.

Your position is naive and dim all at the same time.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
The civilian population of North Korea threatens us, preemptively attacks our allies and is a constant nuclear threat? Or are you just mindlessly repeating the "the food will ONLY go to the army" meme?
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Irrelevant in fact none of it could go to the military and my position would remain. You are feeding the population of a dangerous nuclear power who constantly threatens the rest of the planet. Feeding them is the last fucking thing we should be doing.

If "letting a nation collapse" consists of letting mass starvation of the civilian population occur, then it is absolutely morally abhorrent to do so.
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You seem to be confused about the current state of the world. I can assure you many nations are collapsing as we speak and dying of starvation in staggering numbers. The USA world police savior of mankind shtick is moronic.
 
Green Goblin said:
I know but it would remind that piece of shit Kim that he's just a dog on our leash.

Why doesn't their pimp China take care of this?
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Yeah, "showing them who's boss" and other macho political posturing is exactly the wrong way to go about diplomacy. Letting the other guy save face when standing down is a necessary part of this.

The situation with China is complicated. The old guard in China still support North Korea, but much of the younger generation of Chinese politicians and military men don't support it. Eventually China will drop support for the nation because NK has done nothing but embarrass China on the world stage for the past 50 years, but the transition will be slow because we basically have to wait for all the old dudes to retire.
 
China will never drop N. Korea as an ally unless they themselves enter N. Korea to secure the border between N. Korea and S. Korea. N. Korea is a buffer US military installations and the border of China. It has nothing to do with anything else.
 
Irrelevant in fact none of it could go to the military and my position would remain. You are feeding the population of a dangerous nuclear power who constantly threatens the rest of the planet. Feeding them is the last fucking thing we should be doing.
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I can't believe I'm reading this. First of all, North Korea doesn't threaten shit except in the sense that they talk big. SK's military alone could steamroll the nation even without USFK's assistance, and the USMC base in Okinawa relatively close by and the US Pacific Fleet, and the JSDF. It's miniscule nuclear arsenal is immobile because the only delivery vehicles they have that can take them anywhere are trucks and oversized Russian bombers designed in the 1950's, neither of which have a chance of being able to hit any foreign nation without getting intercepted.

But somehow, you think that the Civilian population deserves to starve to death because of the actions of it's unelected dictator-for-life on the world stage. I want you to openly state that you think that it's ok to let civilians starve to death because the government is corrupt.


You seem to be confused about the current state of the world. I can assure you many nations are collapsing as we speak and dying of starvation in staggering numbers. The USA world police savior of mankind shtick is moronic.
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So you're saying that it's morally acceptable as long as it's happening somewhere else and we aren't doing something about it? So like, the genocides in Darfur and Rwanda were ok because we didn't try to stop it? Is that right?

Letting people starve to death when we have the means to feed them is amoral. It is amoral. It is amoral. Repeat that a few more times until it sinks in.


China will never drop N. Korea as an ally unless they themselves enter N. Korea to secure the border between N. Korea and S. Korea. N. Korea is a buffer US military installations and the border of China. It has nothing to do with anything else.
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Can you explain to me the functional difference between China occupied NK sharing a border with SK and a unified Korea sharing a border with China? What are they scared of, a war with America (lol)?
 
China and Russia just finds North Korea amusing since they are trolling USA all the time. They just keep them there because they are a pimple on the buttocks for USA.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
I can't believe I'm reading this. First of all, North Korea doesn't threaten shit except in the sense that they talk big.
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Yeah, that ship that was torpedo'd a bit ago was just a threat. Or those S. Koreans who died in the shelling a few months ago. They threaten S. Korea constantly, they kill their citizens on a regular basis. Any confrontation with N. Korea would result in a conventional bombardment of every major city with 50+ km of the border. Chemical weapons would almost certainly be used, it would result in 100's of thousands of casualties in the first 24hrs, no need for nukes what so ever.

Who "deserves" anything is the perspective of a child. Deserve does not enter the equation, a hostile nation is starving, has betrayed every deal we have arranged to provide them with aid. Whether or not they deserve their fate is irrelevant. Feeding ones enemies so they remain a threat is stupid.

As I said its a bit silly to speak out on "Its unethical if we don't feed the planet!". Its not our job to feed the entire planet, let alone those hostile to us. Resources are finite not everyone gets fed, sorry.

hat are they scared of, a war with America (lol)?
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Scared does not enter the equation, if you do not understand why China does not want US military forces on their border I don't think you can continue the conversation.
 
Yeah, that ship that was torpedo'd a bit ago was just a threat. Or those S. Koreans who died in the shelling a few months ago. They threaten S. Korea constantly, they kill their citizens on a regular basis. Any confrontation with N. Korea would result in a conventional bombardment of every major city with 50+ km of the border. Chemical weapons would almost certainly be used, it would result in 100's of thousands of casualties in the first 24hrs, no need for nukes what so ever.
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Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand my points? NK cannot defeat any nation in the region in a war. All it can do is cause some casualties before getting mercilessly stomped to death. You remember Iraq in 2003? That's the level of military disparity between SK + USFK vs NK. This is the reason why despite 60 years of macho dickwaving they never actually got a war started - they won't last three days.

Acting like North Korea is some kind of existential threat to not just SK, but THE WORLD is what you did in your previous post. Please don't backpedal.


Who "deserves" anything is the perspective of a child. Deserve does not enter the equation, a hostile nation is starving, has betrayed every deal we have arranged to provide them with aid. Whether or not they deserve their fate is irrelevant. Feeding ones enemies so they remain a threat is stupid.
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Are you functionally unable to separate the NK civilians from the NK military + government in your mind? You're flat out stating that it's ok to let a country starve if that makes their government collapse. Hey, you know what's 10x more moral than that? Invading the country. Because that way we don't let huge portions of their civilian population starve to death, and unlike starvation which is going to kill their army last (since they prioritize giving soldiers food...), we can direct our bombs straight at their military bases.

I bet you're the kind of guy who thinks it's ok to indiscriminately bomb cities full of people because RARR they belong to an ENEMY COUNTRY.

The concept of rights and what people deserve is front and center to this discussion even though you seem to want to dismiss it. The civilian population is innocent, which is why it's not ok to let them die. We have a moral obligation to save the lives of people if it's in our power to do so.


As I said its a bit silly to speak out on "Its unethical if we don't feed the planet!". Its not our job to feed the entire planet, let alone those hostile to us. Resources are finite not everyone gets fed, sorry.
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That's crap, we have an ethical obligation to help anyone we can help, not just our own nation. This is why we send famine relief and aide to other nations when they have natural disasters, mass starvation etc.

Are you saying that American lives are more important than the lives of North Korean civilians? Or Africans? It's not even that complicated though, it's not a choice between saving American lives or saving Korean lives, it's a choice between Saving Korean lives, or letting them die.

Scared does not enter the equation, if you do not understand why China does not want US military forces on their border I don't think you can continue the conversation.
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Answer the question: what is the difference between Chinese soldiers occupying North Korea and sharing a military border with South Korea/America, and Chinese Soldiers sharing a military border with United Korea / America?

And why the heck would they station large numbers of soldiers along the Chinese border? The only reason USFK exists is because peace was never negotiated with NK, just a cease fire. No more NK = no more war = no more huge military contingent stationed there to watch NK.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand my points? NK cannot defeat any nation in the region in a war.
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They do not threaten to defeat a nation in war. They threaten to slaughter untold numbers of S. Koreans. Who they can defeat in a war has no bearing on anything. The fact that they can cause massive casualties instantly and in a fashion that cannot be prevented is.

Answer the question: what is the difference between Chinese soldiers occupying North Korea and sharing a military border with South Korea/America, and Chinese Soldiers sharing a military border with United Korea / America?
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The same difference that exists with US troops being on the N. Korea border. And N. Korea sharing a border with the United States...

I am not even going to bother responding to the rest of your nonsense.
 
Mudkips said:
People feel safe saying dickish things behind the relative safety of computer anonymity. I don't think of myself as a violent person but if someone suggested punching faces to my face they might get punched.
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MEET ME SOMEWHERE
 
I have sympathy for my backwards kin to the north. In some way, I kind of admire the "FucK you, we can do anything, because we are Korean!" attitude they have towards the Western world. On the other hand, they're fucking up.

Personally, I think we should wait and see how the transition goes. Or start up Unit 684 Part 2: Electric Bugaloo.
 
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