Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
In this case, the "humans rights issue" is that the country is a massive prison camp where people regularly die from famine and have been doing so for decades. That's what we call context.
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North Korea (DPRK) tourism |OT| - surreal, beautiful, friendly
- Thread starter Chittagong
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In this case, the "humans rights issue" is that the country is a massive prison camp where people regularly die from famine and have been doing so for decades. That's what we call context.
They are both human rights issues that countries want to hide. That's the comparison. The severity of each was never the object of the comparison.
And that still would be beyond the point. That "context" is completely irrelevant when you are comparing this that have nothing to do with it. And as already said, the different severity of the situations is on the comparison being made here.
terrisus
Member
This could also be an interesting commentary on the political situation in North Korea.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Ok, so if I was browsing a thread about France's recent intervention in Mali and I said, "the Nazis bombed people too you know" would that also qualify as a good argument?
Great thread, Chittagong.
Ever since watching Departures' 2-part episode on their trip to North Korea, I've been very interested in going there.
Not sure if I should link those episodes here, since they aren't official uploads, but searching "Departures North Korea" brings them up.
A couple of questions:
Did they (still) enforce having both Kim Il-sung's and Kim Jong-un's statues in full view (head to toe, no cutoff) when taking photos?
Did you bring back any souvenirs? Did you get hassled about them when flying back to your home country?
I would love a DPRK propaganda poster to hang up. Purely for the artwork, of course.
Ever since watching Departures' 2-part episode on their trip to North Korea, I've been very interested in going there.
Not sure if I should link those episodes here, since they aren't official uploads, but searching "Departures North Korea" brings them up.
A couple of questions:
Did they (still) enforce having both Kim Il-sung's and Kim Jong-un's statues in full view (head to toe, no cutoff) when taking photos?
Did you bring back any souvenirs? Did you get hassled about them when flying back to your home country?
I would love a DPRK propaganda poster to hang up. Purely for the artwork, of course.
Deaf Spacker
Memb
I'd love to visit North Korea but like what others have said I wouldn't be entirely comfortable doing it. I'd probably consider it more seriously once the regime has ended or softened considerably, I don't know why it interests me, maybe because we don't really know a lot about North Korea and what it's like there, sure we have the news reports etc but you don't see it with your own eyes.
If it hasn't been linked yet (didn't see it on the OP, unless I'm blind), Koryo Tours are the ones that set up the tours, including Mass Games tickets.
It wouldn't be a argument. It would be a mere comparison.
Shanks D Zoro
Banned
I would like to go as I have been living in the South for 4 years and would find it interesting to see how the two are so different.
I loved the OP. A few questions I have
If I was an American who spoke Korean, would I still be allowed in the country? Or would I be allowed and then even more closely monitored?
Are you allowed to give people money or food?
If I wanted to help people with their work, would I be allowed to?
Are North Koreans more like Swedes or more like Indians when it comes to physical contact?
I agree with this, but
Do you need help, son? Because it really sounds like you do.
If I was an American who spoke Korean, would I still be allowed in the country? Or would I be allowed and then even more closely monitored?
Are you allowed to give people money or food?
If I wanted to help people with their work, would I be allowed to?
Are North Koreans more like Swedes or more like Indians when it comes to physical contact?
I agree with this, but
Do you need help, son? Because it really sounds like you do.
Buddha Beam
Banned
Going to NK is on my bucket list. Morbid curiosity lures me. I don't think that nation will survive the next 15 years, so I'd like to see it. We are going to the Philippines this year. Last time we went, we thought about it but chickened out. My wife was flat against it.
Might have to think about it again this year though.
Might have to think about it again this year though.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Given the discussion, I think I should clarify a bit my intention with the comment.
The point is, each government has things which are not accessible to foreigners. You can't infer the quality of the human rights violation (i.e. how horrible it is) or the quantity of it (how much of it happens) just based on the fact that there is restriction of access.
Some restriction of access to military and judiciary sites is probably morally benign (German jails, Finnish army compounds). Some of the limited sites are morally questionable (Guantanamo bay, Russian military training of rookies). Some of the limited sites are morally outright wrong (Saudi Arabian amputation punishments, Singaporean caning, Sudan death sentence for marrying a Christian).
Debating of which of the restricted sites is worse is like debating whose shit smells worse.
Not cropping it is the basic rule. It's only really enforced on the big bronze statue that has big military presence. In other places, it doesn't really matter. I cropped the pic in OP after I left the country. Thailand is probably closest in how they view their king's pictures. One point not widely known is that DPRK does not install pictures or statues of the leader alive, only of the previous leaders (who are related to the current leader). The current leader is featured prominently on daily media - TV, newspapers.
We bought a couple of things. The souvenir industry is very well developed, given that one of the few sources of foreign currency income (even if with the current 2000 annual western tourists, it's minuscule). I brought back propaganda post cards, a book about propaganda art, a bag saying 'See you again in Pyongyang' and a jar of Korean hot sauce. No problems of importing goods at all. Rest of the world don't want you to bring things into North Korea, it's fine to bring things back.
Only South Koreans or journalists are routinely denied. I wouldn't think any particular nationality is more or less monitored. Everything is equally controlled.
This was not encouraged. The reason being that they feel their system provides for the people. Same happened to us in China. In London we are pretty used to giving poor people food or money, but in these countries it's viewed as the state's responsibility, and discussing whether the state is fulfilling that responsibility effectively is not likely to be fruitful.
Not as a tourist. They would probably think that it's really weird. Us carrying our own bags and opening doors to locals was bizarre enough for them.
I earlier used the comparison to China rather unsuccessfully, so maybe I'll try to redeem myself here. The principles of respecting personal space are closer to Japan than China. In Tokyo you can walk through rammed Shibuya station without ever touching anyone, whereas in China people physically will push you to create space for themselves. My experience from our tube visit during rush hour was closer to Tokyo. Then again, foreigners are so incredibly rare that could give us more space. But generally people seemed not to be physical.
Porcile
Member
Not sure if serious, but FYI North Korea has a MASSIVE Crystal Meth problem.
Warm Machine
Member
Great OP. Love reading travel stories about North Korea. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
Chittagong
Gold Member
I would be very surprised if people would dare to take the enormous risk for such a small indulgence, we certainly didn't encounter any drugs.
On a couple of occasions we saw working men totally shattered from alcohol, quickly rushed back home by their friends.
I kinda got this vibe reading your post OP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhohteHuyPM&noredirect=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhohteHuyPM&noredirect=1
I'd rather not wage into the ongoing debate here as everything relevant seems to have been established. I, like many others in this thread, have a bit of a fascination with North Korea, having seen many documentaries and read many books (I HIGHLY recommend Nothing to Envy). I've always been interested in a visit because - like you said - it's like nothing else but, personally, I'm not sure I could make peace with the ethical issues of giving money to the current regime.
I think lots of folks are misunderstanding this thread. The OP is not being an apologist for the North Korean regime, just highlighting the experience of travelling there without getting bogged down in the obvious facts of North Korea's unbelievably terrible human rights, pariah status, et cetera.
Which makes me curious...are there any North Korean apologists on GAF? I used to wonder if anyone was fucking tone deaf enough to go to bat for North Korea and then GAF linked me to r/Pyongyang...
Good GOD.
I think lots of folks are misunderstanding this thread. The OP is not being an apologist for the North Korean regime, just highlighting the experience of travelling there without getting bogged down in the obvious facts of North Korea's unbelievably terrible human rights, pariah status, et cetera.
Which makes me curious...are there any North Korean apologists on GAF? I used to wonder if anyone was fucking tone deaf enough to go to bat for North Korea and then GAF linked me to r/Pyongyang...
Good GOD.
Jack Scofield
Member
I'm only through the first page but it's pretty mental how the OP thinks that all the "regular-folk" he sees on his heavily-guided tour are in any way indicative of general life in North Korea, and how he doesn't realize that it's literally their job to appear natural and happy.
block tower
Member
great thread OP! very fascinating to hear about North Korea from a tourists perspective. i would actually be interested in traveling to do what you did. i have already traveled to Japan on vacation and the culture shock was immense, so i can only imagine what it's like to be in North Korea where the culture is basically the exact opposite. i found your description of there being no ads or brands anywhere really interesting if not for the fact that you can't experience that in any other western country.
i do have some questions though, what was the atmosphere like of the country, you describe it like a real life Truman show, so did it feel like it was almost like a parody of what they thought a country should be like to tourists? what i mean was did your guided trip of NK come off as touring a country that was authentic or was it like touring what NKoreans thought tourists should expect from NK?
also how did the regular people react to seeing you, assuming you were of non-Korean descent, were they curious or did they seem to be used to seeing a person of your ethnicity?
i do have some questions though, what was the atmosphere like of the country, you describe it like a real life Truman show, so did it feel like it was almost like a parody of what they thought a country should be like to tourists? what i mean was did your guided trip of NK come off as touring a country that was authentic or was it like touring what NKoreans thought tourists should expect from NK?
also how did the regular people react to seeing you, assuming you were of non-Korean descent, were they curious or did they seem to be used to seeing a person of your ethnicity?
legacyzero
Banned
Watched docs on North Korea for half a day because of this thread. Thanks OP lol
Fully agreed.
Our great media wrote a lot about China having this bad great firewall and monitoring their own people. Well, our superb "governments" are doing something similar to us. And quite a few people are applauding our "great" "leaders", that are directly responsible for it. To me that's brainwashed as well. But I guess that's completely different, because NSA does it because... terrorists... and stuff. And they just want to protect us. Yes, exactly. They are the good guys. Our "leaders" are the good guys for sure. Killing a few children every day via drones is bad of course, but everytime the US president gives an order and this happens, well every single time that's an accident. It's something completely different. Noone is murdering children. It's simple accidents. Because everyone knows that the western world are the good guys, right? Right?
That's really interesting. I bookmarked that link and will read it.
DPRK is indeed a bizarre place. From what I hear, nowadays it's a nicer looking and more relaxed place for visitors than when I was there in 2003. Not that I would ever go back. Once is more than enough.
The endless monotony of visiting monument after monument day after day was doing my head in. I told our guides politely that we would prefer to see some other things, so they arranged to take us to an animation studio, childrens schools, textiles factory, artists studios and so on. Infinitely more interesting.
Highlight of the visit was a trip to Mt. Baekdu. Simply breathtaking.
Despite all the problems, hardships and all we know of the regime, the people are incredibly friendly, though paranoid to the nth degree. They were in perpetual fear of attack by America. Every person we met said that all they hope for is peace, re-unification, and to be left alone by the Americans.
The endless monotony of visiting monument after monument day after day was doing my head in. I told our guides politely that we would prefer to see some other things, so they arranged to take us to an animation studio, childrens schools, textiles factory, artists studios and so on. Infinitely more interesting.
Highlight of the visit was a trip to Mt. Baekdu. Simply breathtaking.
Despite all the problems, hardships and all we know of the regime, the people are incredibly friendly, though paranoid to the nth degree. They were in perpetual fear of attack by America. Every person we met said that all they hope for is peace, re-unification, and to be left alone by the Americans.
While I'm not a fan of the tone of the OP(sure your experience might have been positive but we know the country's situation and the way people are treated) It's an interesting thread, especially for people who do want to visit.
I personally will never want to visit or support NK.
I personally will never want to visit or support NK.
How are Americans treated down there anyhow? I dont think they'd like you guys either lol.
Some people are trying to make the OP feel as if it were written by the great leader itself, it's just a small writing on his GUIDED tour of North Korea, do you think the armed forces would let you wander and see the real DPRK?
Plus he has stated many times that he is aware of the many things that need to be fixed in the country and that it would be redundant to go over them on this thread yet he continues to be insulted making it seem like he is brainwashed and doesn't want to see the true realities of the country. I doubt many people traveling to North Korea don't already know all of this.
There are some moral issues to be examined on the decision to visit and support the totalitarian regime but that is not the point of this thread, nobody is inciting you to travel to North Korea and support it.
Plus he has stated many times that he is aware of the many things that need to be fixed in the country and that it would be redundant to go over them on this thread yet he continues to be insulted making it seem like he is brainwashed and doesn't want to see the true realities of the country. I doubt many people traveling to North Korea don't already know all of this.
There are some moral issues to be examined on the decision to visit and support the totalitarian regime but that is not the point of this thread, nobody is inciting you to travel to North Korea and support it.
Same.
Where are all the comments on being shown a North Korea from "western government" standpoint coming from? This isn't a case of America trying to make North Korea look bad, this is a case of calling out the most repressive regime today and one of the worst all-time in human history.
North Korea as it was under Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il would be Hitler's wet dream. Total domination and control over every facet of life. Televisions and radios that only broadcast propaganda from the state that you are forced to hear, children taught since birth to revere their leader as a god, punishments that go on for generations. Imagine being born into a life of hard labor and beatings because your grandpa criticized the government when he was starving 50 years ago.
Just read or hear some of the stories from defectors who escape. Having to watch their mothers be killed because they were too broken to continue working in the concentration camps and gulags. One man said that because he was raised to believe the state and the Il-Sung regime was divine, when he heard his brother and mother criticize them in prison, he told on them and watched them be executed and didn't even flinch because they spoke against the regime.
Everything in the OP is an illusion. Numerous defectors and journalists have said that the limited tourism industry is a front for the cash strapped government to get funds. Those American dollars you spend go back to the central government to do whatever it wants with it.
Of course it's morbid curiosity to see such things, it's why so many like to visit Holocaust memorials and sites, and to see something so different, but unlike other nations, North Korea is in a league of it's own. As we speak, there are millions literally starving to death, more than a million people doing forced labor, countless thousands of children suffering due to malnourishment and health problems, but hey, look at their sweet military with their synchronized goose steps.
I don't blame the OP, I just wanted to share my own feelings on the matter. I've long criticized US hypocrisy and Western imperialism at times myself, but this is not it. North Korea is that bad. The worst country and regime in the world. If they keep it up for another few decades they'll have killed more of their own citizens than the Nazi's did. Once the regime collapses it will be the biggest humanitarian disaster ever.
North Korea as it was under Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il would be Hitler's wet dream. Total domination and control over every facet of life. Televisions and radios that only broadcast propaganda from the state that you are forced to hear, children taught since birth to revere their leader as a god, punishments that go on for generations. Imagine being born into a life of hard labor and beatings because your grandpa criticized the government when he was starving 50 years ago.
Just read or hear some of the stories from defectors who escape. Having to watch their mothers be killed because they were too broken to continue working in the concentration camps and gulags. One man said that because he was raised to believe the state and the Il-Sung regime was divine, when he heard his brother and mother criticize them in prison, he told on them and watched them be executed and didn't even flinch because they spoke against the regime.
Everything in the OP is an illusion. Numerous defectors and journalists have said that the limited tourism industry is a front for the cash strapped government to get funds. Those American dollars you spend go back to the central government to do whatever it wants with it.
Of course it's morbid curiosity to see such things, it's why so many like to visit Holocaust memorials and sites, and to see something so different, but unlike other nations, North Korea is in a league of it's own. As we speak, there are millions literally starving to death, more than a million people doing forced labor, countless thousands of children suffering due to malnourishment and health problems, but hey, look at their sweet military with their synchronized goose steps.
I don't blame the OP, I just wanted to share my own feelings on the matter. I've long criticized US hypocrisy and Western imperialism at times myself, but this is not it. North Korea is that bad. The worst country and regime in the world. If they keep it up for another few decades they'll have killed more of their own citizens than the Nazi's did. Once the regime collapses it will be the biggest humanitarian disaster ever.
Nice strawman you've got there. Who, exactly, are you arguing with?
Western governments aren't the "good guys" but to claim that their evils even begin to compare to North Korea's is ludicrous.
Well said.
Crazy_Sunshine
Banned
Nice read OP, Thank you for posting your experiences over in NK.
Here's a question, not really directed at the OP. But are the citizens of NK allowed to travel outside of NK? Just wondering
Wow, that's nuts. Truly fascinating though. The culture of NK is just something out of this world. I wish I understood more about it.
Here's a question, not really directed at the OP. But are the citizens of NK allowed to travel outside of NK? Just wondering
Wow, that's nuts. Truly fascinating though. The culture of NK is just something out of this world. I wish I understood more about it.
Nope, most aren't allowed to travel freely within the country either without proper documentation.
They're treated great.
Cuba is awesome.
I can understand the argument against going to North Korea, but Cuba?
That's nuts.
The dislike for the Cuban government is probably stronger in my family then others.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Great OP. Beautiful country (the scenery, I mean). Definitely on my list. But I don't know how I'll visit 170 countries with 60 years to live xD
RyougaSaotome
Member
Fascinating read OP, thanks a lot for sharing the experience.
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
Dude, its not just about their fate. Its about YOU!
People are held hostage and are accosted against their will all the time in this nation.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Please, if you are going to visit a country, do so where it won't imply having you participating in what is essentially a facade for a totalitarian state. It is the equivalent of saying you are going to visit a child-labor factory "out of curiosity". It's not some sort of animal species, it is a prison, where children are also imprisoned.
And no, it won't make you cool on Facebook.
And no, it won't make you cool on Facebook.
I almost went last october but chickened out at the last minute. A combination of guilt, fear of the shit hitting the fan while I'm there and the awful $Can/Euro exchange rate.
I was also scared shitless of flying on a Tupolev plane.
Did you visit the awesome water bottle factory OP?
I was also scared shitless of flying on a Tupolev plane.
Did you visit the awesome water bottle factory OP?
That's fair.
I will say this though, if you limit yourself your travels to only countries with governments you like, you're going to miss on some amazing places.
OP sounds like the kind of pretentious, willfully ignorant tourist that NK would absolutely love to have over giving them money. I actually thought this was a joke thread at first, but then I slowly realized this clown was being completely serious. Someone run a check on his IP. OP might be a NK soldier for all we know!
Chittagong
Gold Member
Didn't get to see the factory, but we passed by a car factory that they ran in collaboration with Fiat. It has been recently transferred under Chinese ownership, the locals complain that quality has dropped.
I was worried about the Tupolev before actually being in one. It's essentially a KIRF A320. Or A320 is a KIRF Tupolev. Who knows.
Totally agreed. The country has a strong desire to reunify, although I can see why South Korea would not agree to their terms (their leadership, their system). The fear of American Imperialists, as they are called in the country, is deeply rooted over years of childhood and education. South Korean are not vilified, they are seen as unfortunate 'puppets' of Americans.
I very much doubt it, and it probably wouldn't be a good idea for either party involved at the present.
I would say a mix of both. It's interesting to see how the regime wants to portray their country. The thing I believe many people in this thread don't understand is that what we see is the *same way* they portray their country to their citizens. Since all communication is completely state controlled, and no external influence is possible, that's the world 25 million people believe exist.
Based on all they know the locals are immensely proud of their country. They see it's a country at forefront of technological progress, a country having an unique system of society ('Juche') the world wants to destroy and they have to defend, they believe they have a leader who every day does something good like opens an orphanage or visits a mushroom factory.
One morning on the country side we woke up at 5AM to speakers blasting the call for workers to unite and march songs, and it went on with messages of building a great nation until noon at least. We heard it's a normal thing for working areas. I would imagine if I would have woken up to that every morning for 34 years and read news only about the endless success of the country, I would see the world quite differently, and swiftly rationalise the bad stuff I'd inevitably see - staying upbeat and happy in midst of it all.
Enough repetition and consistency will make people believe all kinds of things - whether it's that you are reincarnated into a different animal based on what you do in life, or that adulterers should be stoned to death, or that being gay is wrong, or that steroids are required for you to look good. Different belief systems can be installed by the means of media, and learning to make sense of the media you are surrounded by is a crucial, but very difficult skill.
With a lot of delight, to our surprise. Kids would run after the bus waiving on the rural areas, adults in the cities would waive, soldiers would show the peace sign. A soldier in the tube tried to secretly snap pictures of my wife with his cellphone, problem is that the tube is pretty dark and he had an older phone so he had to do probably ten retakes which kind of gave it away. Everybody would turn to look at you. I guess it's pretty understandable, since only 2000 westerners currently visit the country each year, the chances for them to see a 6 feet 3 tall blonde person with a big nose is like seeing an unicorn. But the reaction was certainly a positive curiosity.
I used to live as a kid in Bangladesh in early 1980s, it was similar with white foreigners then there, but people there were less subtle about it.
that doesn't seem to be entirely true.
there are a few hints at free movement within the country and outside. I think you can't exactly call first hand experiences of a guy who entered the country boarder-line illegal a "guided tour".
there is a part about train travel in north Korea and another part about north Koreans in Russia, travelling home from work - and smuggling stuff. There are also interesting titbits about hints of an market economy (food and beverages sold at some stations, etc).
you should give it a read, there is nothing quite like it.
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