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[donny2112]

I suppose it doesn't, but that's a bit of an oddity if 360's third parties are enjoying sales that are head and shoulders with MS' own efforts and, in Sony's case, often eclipsing them entirely.

It has a lot to do with how and when these companies came into the market. Nintendo is from the time where you created a console to put your games on it, and third-parties were sort of a "Yeah, sure, you can join in if you want." Genesis started moving toward courting third-parties more, but they were still pretty heavily first-party focused. Sony went all out to get the third-parties and didn't need much of a first-party focus. Xbox came in trying to follow the Sony model.

 

[PuppetMaster]

thanks so much for this chart. many ppl mix up the user base adapting % and the real # of games sold.

let's just compare, 10% of 10million >>> 50% of 1million. ppl pls just stop whining, dev looks at the game [selling figure and the $ they make]. not the [num selling / num consoles sold].

If you are only selling your product to 10% of the user base of a platform, that tells you that you are only reaching a very niche group of people who own that hardware. You should begin to worry that your product goals are not well aligned with the goals of the platform owner. To them you become a small insect eating the crumbs that fall off their table.

But if you are selling your product to 50% of the install base, that tells you that your product nicely matches with the target demographic of the platform. Your product is much better aligned with the goals of the platform owner. And you can work together to maintain sustainability as well as growth.

 

[WretchedTruman]

It has a lot to do with how and when these companies came into the market. Nintendo is from the time where you created a console to put your games on it, and third-parties were sort of a "Yeah, sure, you can join in if you want." Genesis started moving toward courting third-parties more, but they were still pretty heavily first-party focused. Sony went all out to get the third-parties and didn't need much of a first-party focus. Xbox came in trying to follow the Sony model.

Indeed, that's very true and something that's rarely addressed.

 

[Tobor]

It's Intelligent Design guys! Not creationism.

And gravity is actually Intelligent Falling.

And the PS3 is actually Intelligent Failing.

 

[Masklinn]

For a change? I make one post that suggests the PS3 tried to do something innovative this gen and now I'm a blathering Sony zealot?

Where did I say that?

The PS3 tried to introduce two interesting hardware innovations into a mass market consumer electronics device for the first time. 1) Cell architecture and 2) Blu Ray.

More power (or storage, for the BR case) != innovation. I'm pretty sure I already wrote that.

Yes this generation had a bigger power leap over the previous one than what historically happened, but it was:
1. Not that huge
2. Necessitated by the (marketting) desire for HD resolutions
3. Not innovation

You say that the Wii's motion sensing peripheral is the only example of innovation this gen.

I would have been wrong though, as I don't remember who pointed out, MS innovated quite a lot in the online/connectivity space with Live.

 

[Bulla564]

How many? And why would they choose the PS3 over the X360? What are the game that will push the decision? Why will those games push the decision?

How many less people? I don't know... compare it to a $300 console... that could be how much. And you tell me... WHY would Gears push people that direction? why would Wii Sports pull people that direction? Why would people choose X360 over PS3?? *cough*PRICE*cough*.

Your point is that the X360 is running circles around the Ps3 in software sales? How long in advance did we know about Gears 2 before it came out?

My point is MS counting on Gears and Halo to push the system.

Details. Do you understand the word?

More snarky comments? I would love to give you details about the future, but humans have not evolved that ability yet.

Well ok, more precisely it's seen as the same thing with less game and a much bigger price tag.

Once again kids, it's not 2006.

 

[donny2112]

If you are only selling your product to 10% of the user base of a platform, that tells you that you are only reaching a very niche group of people who own that hardware. You should begin to worry that your product goals are not well aligned with the goals of the platform owner. To them you become a small insect eating the crumbs that fall off their table.

Poor, poor GTA. I guess it wasn't very popular on the PS2 after all. Maybe it should've gone GameCube exclusive, so it could've sold to a higher percentage of the userbase.

But if you are selling your product to 50% of the install base, that tells you that your product nicely matches with the target demographic of the platform. Your product is much better aligned with the goals of the platform owner. And you can work together to maintain sustainability as well as growth.

Or that the platform you've chosen isn't selling too great, but at least you can sell your product to them unlike on that pathetic PS2! Heck, even the blockbuster games were lucky to sell to 10% of its userbase. Poor, poor PS2 games.

 

[TJ Spyke]

If you are only selling your product to 10% of the user base of a platform, that tells you that you are only reaching a very niche group of people who own that hardware. You should begin to worry that your product goals are not well aligned with the goals of the platform owner. To them you become a small insect eating the crumbs that fall off their table.

But if you are selling your product to 50% of the install base, that tells you that your product nicely matches with the target demographic of the platform. Your product is much better aligned with the goals of the platform owner. And you can work together to maintain sustainability as well as growth.

Not really. The larger a systems base gets the lower the attach ratio for a game is likely to be. Under your theory, most PS2 games had a problem as even the best selling PS2 game reached less than 10% of the install base. Companies care more about total sales than what percentage of a system's install base buys it (except maybe at launch when there won't be many systems sold yet).

 

[Gotchaye]

I'm confused about something:

Why are people who generally dislike the Wii pushing this idea that the Wii doesn't sell third party games very well? Why are people that seem to like the Wii fighting back so hard with the graphs and such showing that it sells much more than the PS3 does?

If third party software on the Wii was selling in the same proportion to first party software as third party software on the PS3 was selling to first party software, wouldn't the obvious conclusion be that third parties are doing exactly what the Wii's market wants? If third parties are having tremendous difficulty competing with Nintendo on the Wii, isn't the obvious conclusion that the third party offerings on the systems aren't what the Wii's market is looking for? Isn't there general agreement that Nintendo's first party titles are much more appealing to core gamers than the typical (or even above-average) third party title on the Wii?

I just don't understand why the same people who complain that the Wii has nothing but shovelware apart from a few titles like Mario Galaxy and such will then turn around and say "ha, Wii owners aren't buying crappy games!" What is it that some of you are trying to say when you say that Wii owners don't buy third party games? It's clear that it's meant to somehow disparage the system or its userbase, but in what sense does it do that? How is it more than an attack on third parties for miserably failing to give the Wii's userbase what it wants?

 

[Tobor]

Once again kids, it's not 2006.

It doesn't matter if in reality PS3 has 5 times the games the 360 has(It clearly doesn't), the perception among the majority is that the 360 has more games. That and a lower price that will always be lower for the life of this gen ensures that Sony will never catch up.

Now if they drop the price in Spring, I might get one.

 

[Regulus Tera]

It's Intelligent Design guys! Not creationism.

And gravity is actually Intelligent Falling.

And the PS3 is actually Intelligent Failing.

:lol:lol:lol:lol

 

[Stumpokapow]

More snarky comments? I would love to give you details about the future, but humans have not evolved that ability yet.

that's not how evolution works anyway

 

[RSTEIN]

Where did I say that?

You said "why don't you explain Sony innovation for a change", implying that I have a history of writing posts glorifying Sony innovation without providing any explanation.

More power (or storage, for the BR case) != innovation. I'm pretty sure I already wrote that.

I'm pretty sure I already wrote that too.

I would have been wrong though, as I don't remember who pointed out, MS innovated quite a lot in the online/connectivity space with Live.

Ok, so, you were wrong. But I'm not sure about where you draw the line between innovation vs. evolution, and I'm more confused now. You say that Live is an example of innovation but introducing a new optical storage device/cell architecture isn't? Xbox Live is the evolution of an idea that the Dreamcast tried to introduce. Xbox continued to evolve that idea, and here we are with the awesome Xbox Live.

 

[manueldelalas]

If you are only selling your product to 10% of the user base of a platform, that tells you that you are only reaching a very niche group of people who own that hardware. You should begin to worry that your product goals are not well aligned with the goals of the platform owner. To them you become a small insect eating the crumbs that fall off their table.

But if you are selling your product to 50% of the install base, that tells you that your product nicely matches with the target demographic of the platform. Your product is much better aligned with the goals of the platform owner. And you can work together to maintain sustainability as well as growth.

Hey, I made a console, and I made a launch game with it. Also my brother made a game for it, and I bought the console with the two games; that's 100% of the user base, my games really matches my console's demographic!

3rd parties make games for my console already!

 

[LCfiner]

It's Intelligent Design guys! Not creationism.

And gravity is actually Intelligent Falling.

And the PS3 is actually Intelligent Failing.

shit, this needs to be quoted again. :lol

 

[donny2112]

If third party software on the Wii was selling in the same proportion to first party software as third party software on the PS3 was selling to first party software, wouldn't the obvious conclusion be that third parties are doing exactly what the Wii's market wants? If third parties are having tremendous difficulty competing with Nintendo on the Wii, isn't the obvious conclusion that the third party offerings on the systems aren't what the Wii's market is looking for?

Because how your game sells compared to the first-party games on the system is a more significant metric than how many units your games sells. Exactly.

 

[Weisheit]

That said, until we start seeing a bit of variety in the NPD software charts, I'm gonna go on a dangerous limb (or it may just be common sense) and say that many third parties find a 360/PS3 title more attractive than taking a stab into the Wii front.

You can't forget that top 10/20 charts are only a fraction of overall sw sales. 3rd parties had 21 titles hit a million or more WW as of September.

stuff

As Jaruru said the only thing that matters:

10% of 10million >>> 50% of 1million.

 

[Haunted]

Wow, Bulla is giving this thread life again.

life and entertainment. Frankly, I'm thankful.

 

[WretchedTruman]

It doesn't matter if in reality PS3 has 5 times the games the 360 has(It clearly doesn't), the perception among the majority is that the 360 has more games. That and a lower price that will always be lower for the life of this gen ensures that Sony will never catch up.

Now if they drop the price in Spring, I might get one.

so it's transitioned from "PS3 has no games" to "PS3 has less games"? Hell, that's an improvement, all thing's considered. :lol

 

[Tobor]

so it's transitioned from "PS3 has no games" to "PS3 has less games"? Hell, that's an improvement, all thing's considered. :lol

I guess so, but the end result is the same.

 

[Shanks]

We never did get any extra numbers did we? I skimmed through the topic and didn't see any. I'm curious how Persona 4 did...

 

[Pureauthor]

How many less people? I don't know... compare it to a $300 console... that could be how much. And you tell me... WHY would Gears push people that direction? why would Wii Sports pull people that direction? Why would people choose X360 over PS3?? *cough*PRICE*cough*.

I asked you what was coming out that would change the system's fortunes i.e. what would come out that was significantly different from before. The Wii hit it right out of the gate, and the X360 also established its identity early.

The PS3? What does it have to change its identity as a X360 clone?

My point is MS counting on Gears and Halo to push the system.

What is Sony counting on, then?

More snarky comments? I would love to give you details about the future, but humans have not evolved that ability yet.

Then on what basis do you believe in a turnaround for the PS3's fortunes?

 

[Dunlop]

Xbox Live is the evolution of an idea that the Dreamcast tried to introduce. Xbox continued to evolve that idea, and here we are with the awesome Xbox Live.

I agree with your post and love my departed Dreamcast but LIVE is not simply an evolution of what the DC started, which was to get the console online. I would put the original state of PSN to be more of the evolution of that model.

MS had it's own idea's about where LIVE was going when they started (unified gamer tags,broadband prerequisit, ect..). The beefed it up later with achievements, marketplace, XBLA, Netflix, ect.... It is now a great source of revenue for them and has the potiental to grow exponentially over the next generation.

I doubt this is how Sega envisoned things back then.

That will be the last almost negative post about the Dreamcast I will ever post

 

[Bulla564]

It doesn't matter if in reality PS3 has 5 times the games the 360 has(It clearly doesn't), the perception among the majority is that the 360 has more games. .

Where do you run your surveys? teamxbox forums? 1UP journa.......ohh...

 

[soldat7]

You can't forget that top 10/20 charts are only a fraction of overall sw sales. 3rd parties had 21 titles hit a million or more WW as of September.

What were these titles?

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Honestly Bulla you're going to have to do much better than this.

 

[Stumpokapow]

What were these titles?

Not the September list, but current Wii million sellers, including both first and third parties...

0. Wii Sports
1. Wii Play
2. Wii Fit
3. Wii Music
4. Mario Kart
5. Brawl
6. Mario Galaxy
7. Mario Party 8
8. Zelda: TP
9. Big Brain Academy
10. Link's Crossbow Training
11. WarioWare
12. Animal Crossing
13. Mario Strikers Charged
14. Metroid Prime 3

Maybe: Pokemon BR
Maybe: Endless Ocean

15. GH3
16. Sonic and Mario
17. REUC
18. RE4
19. Red Steel
20. Carnival Games
21. Rayman Raving Rabbids
22. Deca Sports
23. Game Party
24. Sonic and the Secret Rings

??? Rock Band
Maybe: Rayman 2
Maybe: Lego Indy
Maybe: Lego SW Complete
Maybe: MySims
Maybe: We Ski
Maybe: DBZ BT2

(Some of these are shipped, but that's what the number referred to as well. Almost all worldwide numbers do.)

 

[RSTEIN]

I agree with your post and love my departed Dreamcast but LIVE is not simply an evolution of what the DC started, which was to get the console online. I would put the original state of PSN to be more of the evolution of that model.

MS had it's own idea's about where LIVE was going when they started (unified gamer tags,broadband prerequisit, ect..). The beefed it up later with achievements, marketplace, XBLA, Netflix, ect.... It is now a great source of revenue for them and has the potiental to grow exponentially over the next generation.

Right, but I didn't say 360's Live is an evolution of the Dreamcast's attempt to have consoles connected to the net. I said that 360's Live is an evolution of Xbox 1's Live, which was itself an evolution of PSN. It all started with the Dreamcast.

 

[Tobor]

Where do you run your surveys? teamxbox forums? 1UP journa.......ohh...

I take a sample of reality and extrapolate. I get good results that way.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

Someone who uses the phrase 'thick-headed evolutionists' just saved Christmas. This is the best NPD meltdown ever. I'm gonna go burn down a church and play some Wonderswan.

 

[Dunlop]

Not the September list, but current...

0. Wii Sports
1. Wii Play
2. Wii Fit
3. Wii Music
4. Mario Kart
5. Brawl
6. Mario Galaxy
7. Mario Party 8
8. Zelda: TP
9. Big Brain Academy
10. Link's Crossbow Training
11. WarioWare
12. Animal Crossing
13. Mario Strikers Charged
14. Metroid Prime 3

What kills me about this list is I'm pretty vocal about how the Wii is my least like system and yet I own or have owned 9 or the 14 titles here,

Nintendo are fucking geniouses

Right, but I didn't say 360's Live is an evolution of the Dreamcast's attempt to have consoles connected to the net. I said that 360's Live is an evolution of Xbox 1's Live, which was itself an evolution of PSN. It all started with the Dreamcast

gotcha..I take it back then

 

[Pureauthor]

I take a sample of reality and extrapolate. I get good results that way.

Oh come on. Everyone knows Reality's got an anti-PS3 bias. You're never going to get objective results like that.

 

[Francias Castiglione]

I take a sample of reality and extrapolate. I get good results that way.

Bulla cares not for your facts and science.

 

[Mindlog]

Right, but I didn't say 360's Live is an evolution of the Dreamcast's attempt to have consoles connected to the net. I said that 360's Live is an evolution of Xbox 1's Live, which was itself an evolution of PSN. It all started with the Dreamcast.

Sega Channel!

I had a couple of other questions, but I want to get more info before asking them.

 

[AstroLad]

love seein' 360 superfans Tobor and PureAuthor get fucken pwned. you guys should just change your avatars to bill gates (or rrod :lol)--it's ok, we understand, be yourselves.

 

[Tobor]

Oh come on. Everyone knows Reality's got an anti-PS3 bias. You're never going to get objective results like that.

Unfortunately, objectivity has an anti-PS3 bias as well.

 

[TJ Spyke]

What were these titles?

3rd party games with confirmed sales of over 1 million:

Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
Carnival Games
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
Rayman Raving Rabbids
Sonic and the Secret Rings
We Ski
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Red Steel
Rock Band
Deca Sports
Game Party
Guitar Hero World Tour

There are others, but these one have confirmed sources.

 

[Pureauthor]

love seein' 360 superfans Tobor and PureAuthor get fucken pwned. you guys should just change your avatars to bill gates (or rrod :lol)--it's ok, we understand, be yourselves.

It's Pureauthor. Lowercase 'a', you cretinous troglodyte who cannot even get a name correct.

 

[Bulla564]

I asked you what was coming out that would change the system's fortunes i.e. what would come out that was significantly different from before. The Wii hit it right out of the gate, and the X360 also established its identity early.

The PS3? What does it have to change its identity as a X360 clone?

A X360 clone in the sense that it plays games, has FPS's, and multi-platform games, etc? I'll disregard such a silly question, and re-affirm that Sony has IMO better exclusives coming out in 2009. That's the differentiation that a console enjoys (and your beloved Blu-ray feature).

What is Sony counting on, then?

Based on the diversity of their new franchises, they don't have their eggs in all two baskets.

Then on what basis do you believe in a turnaround for the PS3's fortunes?

Basic microeconomic principles. And they don't need a turnaround. They need a steady growth of the userbase, which they have achieved.

 

[Redd]

Wow, Bulla is giving this thread life again.

Seriously. It was pretty boring until he started posting.

 

[Tobor]

love seein' 360 superfans Tobor and PureAuthor get fucken pwned. you guys should just change your avatars to bill gates (or rrod :lol)--it's ok, we understand, be yourselves.

Oops, looks like it's time to switch superfan hats. Hmmm. Apple or Nintendo, which one have I not worn in a while?

 

[Masklinn]

be yourselves.

Deliciously melted 75% cacao belgian chocolate?

Unfortunately, objectivity has an anti-PS3 bias as well.

You should try being fairer and more balanced.

 

[The Librarian]

love seein' 360 superfans Tobor and PureAuthor get fucken pwned. you guys should just change your avatars to bill gates (or rrod :lol)--it's ok, we understand, be yourselves.

What if YOU are the 360 superfan who should change his avatar to Bill Gates or rrod?

 

[FrankT]

Astrolad's feelings getting hurt. :lol

It's Intelligent Design guys! Not creationism.

And gravity is actually Intelligent Falling.

And the PS3 is actually Intelligent Failing.

:lol

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

A X360 clone in the sense that it plays games, has FPS's, and multi-platform games, etc? I'll disregard such a silly question, and re-affirm that Sony has IMO better exclusives coming out in 2009. That's the differentiation that a console enjoys (and your beloved Blu-ray feature).

Just like how the PS3 had better exclusives in 2008 right?
Shame the sales charts didn't reflect as such.

 

[Threi]

It's Intelligent Design guys! Not creationism.

And gravity is actually Intelligent Falling.

And the PS3 is actually Intelligent Failing.

:lol

love seein' 360 superfans Tobor and PureAuthor get fucken pwned. you guys should just change your avatars to bill gates (or rrod :lol)--it's ok, we understand, be yourselves.

they had it coming.

 

[Pureauthor]

A X360 clone in the sense that it plays games, has FPS's, and multi-platform games, etc? I'll disregard such a silly question, and re-affirm that Sony has IMO better exclusives coming out in 2009. That's the differentiation that a console enjoys (and your beloved Blu-ray feature).

Your opinion, in such a vague general form, is worthless. As before, I reiterate - details. What is it about these games from the 'better exclusives' that will draw in the crowds? What about them differentiates them from the exclusives that Sony already had, and how will it allow the PS3 to escape it's stigma as a X360 clone.

Based on the diversity of their new franchises, they don't have their eggs in all two baskets.

But it's not helping them get sales.

Basic microeconomic principles. And they don't need a turnaround. They need a steady growth of the userbase, which they have achieved.

If you'd actually paid attention to economics, you'd know that humans are motivated by incentives, and that price is merely an incentive, and oftentimes not the most important one.

 

[Stumpokapow]

What if YOU are the 360 superfan who should change his avatar to Bill Gates or rrod?

dude he's a lawyer he could sue you for slander!

 

[Christine]

What if YOU are the 360 superfan who should change his avatar to Bill Gates or rrod?

AstroLad owns all gaming platforms and is perfectly unbiased in his objective assessment of their relative quality. Well known fact.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

What if YOU are the 360 superfan who should change his avatar to Bill Gates or rrod?

Spoiler

Hail to the King, baby