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[JoshuaJSlone]

And as far as LTD sales go, I think the DS has either beat, or will soon beat total GBA sales. The GBA had only a very short time to live though.

This isn't NPD, but the shipment numbers through September bear this out.

I don't see anything ever topping Wii's latest and greatest sale record.

DS's December 2008 seemed just as crazy, but they went and beat it twice this year. Who knows.

 

[caligula13]

i don`t get all this talk here.

Is Silent Hill Wii a hardcore game? Yes. Hardcore gamers buy hardcore games. Casual gamers don`t buy hardcore game. If Silent Hill Wii sells like shit why do you blame Nintendo or the casual gamers? Blame the hardcore gamers, they are not buying games made for them. the casual gamers on the other hand are buying games made for them.

 

[Haunted]

Their DS model has been overly successful till now, so they have no reason not to apply it to the Wii.
Considering third parties are bailing the f**k out everywhere, especially in the West, they need to do something (I mean, anything) unless they're content with the Wii staying a Nintendo games player and shovelware garbage bin (no, Dec. 2009 NPD hardware sales won't make any third party look back and change their mind overnight) for the remainder of the generation, with the concrete risk of the lack of third party support to have consequences in the next (do you really believe third parties would be happy to invest zillions in the Wii 2, even if it's comparable in power with PS4 and Xbox720, after how they shunned Nintendo's audience with the Wii?).
Mind you, I'm not talking exactly about launching new hardware ASAP, because even that wouldn't probably be enough to convince third parties to develop for it.

And that's the million dollar question. Are Nintendo ready to pour as much money and support into third party developers as Microsoft (the current subsidy king) have done this gen?

Because that's what they need to do to change this. Just providing the biggest userbase and promoting select titles (DQ, MH) has not been enough - they need to do more.

 

[NemesisPrime]

I have to wonder if MS is actually pleased with their flat performance for 2 years now - and barely an increase from 2007) granted, they haven't had to climb up from a deep hole like the PS3 but they must be aiming for growth in 2010. I suppose they're expecting Natal to push a lot of that for the end of this year. It better not be a disappointment.

I think they probably are rather pleased. 40M 360s on the planet.... so probably by the end of this cycle they will be around 70M or so. Quite a dramatic increase from XBox1. Much better than anybody had predicted. You don't always need growing sales... just steady healthy numbers.

They also have a very healthy relation with devs and publishers and are in a good spot to expand next gen. They really didn't have a lot of bumps in the road except for the RROD fiasco (hopefully they will learn from that next gen).

/waits for the "mad" graph

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Bzzt, wrong again.



And that's the million dollar question. Are Nintendo ready to pour as much money and support into third party developers as Microsoft (the current subsidy king) have done this gen?

Because that's what they need to do to change this. Just providing the biggest userbase and promoting select titles (DQ, MH) has not been enough - they need to do more.

Why would they do that? They're doing a fuckton of money, people still buy 2 years old Nintendo software, and the system is healthier that ever, at this rate they'll have enough brand recognition to fuck off every third party. A shame Nintendo is so conservative, they should take this chance to build more studios, and monopolize their own market, while letting DD services, as wiiware, to indie developers to exploit or something like that...

 

[Castor Krieg]

And that's the million dollar question. Are Nintendo ready to pour as much money and support into third party developers as Microsoft (the current subsidy king) have done this gen?

Why should they? Nintendo already made an incredibly successful console. Now they should subsidize poor developers who are lost, but if they manage to get it right you can be sure not a single credit will be given to Nintendo? What's next, writing games for them?

From the numbers it clearly looks as if casuals are perfectly happy with Nintendo software alone.

Reason Microsoft did it was to grab all the IPs from Sony, not Nintendo, which didn't turn out so well as apart from Halo they still don't have an iconic IP, not to mention the whole fuck-up with Japanese developers using X360 to fund their jRPG PS3 development. Even if Microsoft looked at Wii IPs they have nothing to "steal" - 99% of them are Nintendo-owned.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

From the numbers it clearly looks as if casuals are perfectly happy with Nintendo software alone.

Well I guess the question is, for how long?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Well I guess the question is, for how long?

Many years, if they don't screw up. A new Wii revision and a price drop is gonna crush Natal in so many ways..., I can't wait. :lol

 

[freddy]

PlayStation 2 333.2K
PlayStation 3 1.36M
PSP 654.7K
Xbox 360 1.31M
Wii 3.81M
Nintendo DS 3.31M

Now let's focus the discussion on the reasons why Nintendo needs to fix up their shit.

 

[orion434]

Wow the Wii topped all expectations, and glad to see L4D2 up there, it's a great game and tons of fun.

 

[Haunted]

PlayStation 2 333.2K
PlayStation 3 1.36M
PSP 654.7K
Xbox 360 1.31M
Wii 3.81M
Nintendo DS 3.31M

Now let's focus the discussion on the reasons why Nintendo needs to fix up their shit.

:lol alright, I concede.

 

[Rad-]

Wait, L4D2 360 has already sold 1.5 million in US alone? I think that's huge, considering how people talk about Valve and consoles.

 

[gofreak]

i don`t get all this talk here.

Is Silent Hill Wii a hardcore game? Yes. Hardcore gamers buy hardcore games. Casual gamers don`t buy hardcore game. If Silent Hill Wii sells like shit why do you blame Nintendo or the casual gamers? Blame the hardcore gamers, they are not buying games made for them. the casual gamers on the other hand are buying games made for them.

There's no one to blame.

If hardcore players don't want these games it's their perogative as much as it's 'casuals' perogative not to buy them either.

If the market's small or not there to a large extent then it's not really anyone's fault.

People who berate third parties are missing the point - if their 'core' stuff doesn't sell on the system, there's little incentive for them to keep putting that stuff on it. It's like giving out people aren't trying to sell hardcore rock albums at a Britney Spears market. You might sell a few...but that's not where the market is, really.

People who berate Nintendo are missing the point too - Nintendo doesn't give a toss about these games. Why would they? Their market doesn't care about them, the presence of them nor the absence of them, quite clearly.

People who berate 'hardcore' gamers are also missing the point - why should they feel obliged to buy these games if they don't really want them? Outside of the 'core' Nintendo fan, the broader 'core' is too distracted elsewhere to take a trip down memory lane (technology-wise) for the sake of motion control.

There's no one to blame. It's how the market is. If you're a wii owner frustrated by the lack of core games then join a market that sustains them. No one else really cares, not third parties, not Nintendo...no one.

 

[NemesisPrime]

Wait, L4D2 360 has already sold 1.5 million in US alone? I think that's huge, considering how people talk about Valve and consoles.

True L4D has been a total success story. A real gamers game and fully online being a massive hit. There still is justice in the world. I expect Valve to make an aliens SF version the next few years

 

[BowieZ]

i don`t get all this talk here.

Is Silent Hill Wii a hardcore game? Yes. Hardcore gamers buy hardcore games. Casual gamers don`t buy hardcore game. If Silent Hill Wii sells like shit why do you blame Nintendo or the casual gamers? Blame the hardcore gamers, they are not buying games made for them. the casual gamers on the other hand are buying games made for them.

Nobody's BLAMING "hardcore" gamers. (Well, silly people might.)

The customer is always right. (And I'm pretty sure hardcore gamers are smart enough to tend to buy GOOD QUALITY hardcore games.)

The question is not about blame but about whether it's as HOPELESS for third party publishers as they say it is. Some GAFfers think the ship has sailed but others think the market is ripe for one last good solid attempt at selling some fresh, new, decent and well-advertised games.

But if they're not gonna bother with quality or with major advertising, I think we all agree there's really no point.

If you're a wii owner frustrated by the lack of core games then join a market that sustains them. No one else really cares, not third parties, not Nintendo...no one.

Indeed, but that's not even the problem being discussed. The problem isn't so much a lack of Wii games as it is a lack of third party profits, or at least, a question of whether there is profit to be had on customers who can't be bothered or who aren't rich enough to buy a whole new console.

 

[LCfiner]

I think they probably are rather pleased. 40M 360s on the planet.... so probably by the end of this cycle they will be around 70M or so. Quite a dramatic increase from XBox1. Much better than anybody had predicted. You don't always need growing sales... just steady healthy numbers.

They also have a very healthy relation with devs and publishers and are in a good spot to expand next gen. They really didn't have a lot of bumps in the road except for the RROD fiasco (hopefully they will learn from that next gen).

/waits for the "mad" graph

I actually agree with all that you've said. it's nice improvement to the business from the xbox 1 days. insofar as it's actually a business now and its not just hemorrhaging money

I was just attempting to look at this from the POV of the shareholder who demands YoY increases all the time. For example, those Bloomberg articles that only see as far as a single month's sales and how that would impact stock price and investment. MS has to answer to investors and the flat sales chart isn't inspiring

If the natal 360 bundle were launching early this year, I would anticipate a big jump in MS hardware sales but, since it's coming near the end, I think 2010 sales will only have a slight increase from 2009. (Unless MS significantly cuts the hardware price again in the spring/ summer.)

And, for what it's worth, I don't think any of the 360 exclusive SW will help move units this year. that goes for PS3, too. very few HD title releases have had a noticeable impact on hardware sales.

 

[le.phat]

There's no one to blame.

If hardcore players don't want these games it's their perogative as much as it's 'casuals' perogative not to buy them either.

If the market's small or not there to a large extent then it's not really anyone's fault.

People who berate third parties are missing the point - if their 'core' stuff doesn't sell on the system, there's little incentive for them to keep putting that stuff on it.

People who berate Nintendo are missing the point too - Nintendo doesn't give a toss about these games. Why would they? Their market doesn't care about them, the presence of them nor the absence of them.

People who berate 'hardcore' gamers are also missing the point - why should they feel obliged to buy these games if they don't really want them? Outside of the 'core' Nintendo fan, the broader 'core' is too distracted elsewhere to take a trip down memory lane (technology-wise) for the sake of motion control.

There's no one to blame. It's how the market is. If you're a wii owner frustrated by the lack of core games then join a market that sustains them. No one else really cares, not third parties, not Nintendo...no one.

that's right on the money really. Wii only gamers seem to act frustrated because they
feel they are missing out and are entitled to these games simply because Nintendo is on pole position, but that's not really nintendo's problem. They are definately getting payed :lol

 

[EDarkness]

They know exactly how to make proper games and not shovelware crap. Don't believe execs pretending to be confused and dazzled about the unexplicable Wii market: they just didn't want to develop for it in the beginning (for a large variety of reasons), they never really gave it a chance besides third rate "tests", and they're most certainly going to use the data they've gathered to assume the Wii 2 demographic will largely stay the same as the current Wii come next generation.

I agree. Last generation it was that the console with the highest installed base was going to get the games. Well, it's been proven that isn't the case. They don't care about installed base. So what will it be next time? I would be extremely surprised if they don't have the same 3rd party problems they have with their next system. Seems to be that the only way they're going to get the big named games is if they totally kill the competition. All we'll get are more excuses as to why they can't make games on Nintendo systems.

 

[caligula13]

There's no one to blame.

If hardcore players don't want these games it's their perogative as much as it's 'casuals' perogative not to buy them either.

If the market's small or not there to a large extent then it's not really anyone's fault.

People who berate third parties are missing the point - if their 'core' stuff doesn't sell on the system, there's little incentive for them to keep putting that stuff on it. It's like giving out people aren't trying to sell hardcore rock albums at a Britney Spears market. You might sell a few...but that's not where the market is, really.

People who berate Nintendo are missing the point too - Nintendo doesn't give a toss about these games. Why would they? Their market doesn't care about them, the presence of them nor the absence of them, quite clearly.

People who berate 'hardcore' gamers are also missing the point - why should they feel obliged to buy these games if they don't really want them? Outside of the 'core' Nintendo fan, the broader 'core' is too distracted elsewhere to take a trip down memory lane (technology-wise) for the sake of motion control.

There's no one to blame. It's how the market is. If you're a wii owner frustrated by the lack of core games then join a market that sustains them. No one else really cares, not third parties, not Nintendo...no one.

yeah, that`s why I hate to hear Reggie talking about wanting to have the Halo players play The Conduit. No, you don`t care, Reggie, say the truth.

 

[NemesisPrime]

I was just attempting to look at this from the POV of the shareholder who demands YoY increases all the time. For example, those Bloomberg articles that only see as far as a single month's sales and how that would impact stock price and investment. MS has to answer to investors and the flat sales chart isn't inspiring.

Since most of the real money comes from software a "flat" but good growth of hardware will ensure bigger and bigger sales of software (they obviously grow because the pool of owners expands) . I guess that is where the value is.

 

[selig]

There's no one to blame. It's how the market is. If you're a wii owner frustrated by the lack of core games then join a market that sustains them. No one else really cares, not third parties, not Nintendo...no one.

you´re missing the point: third parties SHOULD care, because in the end, they´re the only ones losing money here.

 

[BowieZ]

that's right on the money really. Wii only gamers seem to act frustrated because they feel they are missing out and are entitled to these games simply because Nintendo is on pole position, but that's not really nintendo's problem. They are definately getting payed :lol

No, I don't think that is right on the money at all. This isn't about Wii customers, this isn't about Nintendo... it's about jobs and profits and people's lives, those who work for game developing companies. Last year sucked for them.

It's about the gains that could be made if the Wii's audience was tapped into fully.

Yes, it's quite possible that third party developers have done all that's possible to try and profit from the Wii. But it seems more likely that they haven't. And they seem to be giving up while the Wii is posting record profits.

It's not frustrating on a personal entertainment level; it's frustrating in terms of seeming to be a whole lot of cognitive dissonance and misunderstandings.

you´re missing the point: third parties SHOULD care, because in the end, they´re the only ones losing money here.

Exactly.

And people in this thread are right. There've been so many threads about this. And yes, admittedly the argument goes around in circles, because really it's a pretty massive and complicated gamer economy we're trying to dissect.

But progress would be made if the "core" question at hand was framed properly. People mostly seem to be arguing about things that aren't related to the issue.

Which is software developer profit and jobs being lost despite massive hardware developer sales.

 

[gofreak]

Indeed, but that's not even the problem being discussed. The problem isn't so much a lack of Wii games as it is a lack of third party profits, or at least, a question of whether there is profit to be had on customers who can't be bothered or who aren't rich enough to buy a whole new console.

On the one hand I think they can sure try and profit off of this audience and try to appeal to it.

But it wouldn't be with 'core' games like Silent Hill.

On the other hand also, you just have to wonder if the competence is there. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Not to harp on the music analogy, but do people stay up at night wondering how some hard rock label is going to capitalise the tween audience? You know...maybe the execs at such companies do, maybe they can diversify successfully into that 'new' group. But they're not obliged to.

Some markets and companies aren't meant to be. Some apparent opportunites aren't really opportunities for some companies due to their focus and strengths. If we're wondering how they're going to tap Wii, we should wonder just as much how they're going to tap Facebook and browser gaming and mobile gaming and so on. These are all 'apparently huge opportunities', but not everyone's going to fit there. And they certainly won't fit with the type of product they've done to date, that some are saying they should be doing on these platforms (because they themselves just want that type of game).

It's just a sign of an industry and market that's getting large and disparate. We're used to the idea of 'one' videogames market that covers all kinds of games with one platform that speaks to all of this market, but I think this gen it's really fractured more than ever into large self-enclosing/seperate sub-markets that are being defined by different platforms. We're not used to it from previous generations but we probably should start getting used to it if the industry is going to continue to (hopefully) grow. It's probably a very good sign that you can have different platforms catering to different large and growing audiences vs the 'monolithic' approach of previous generations.

 

[jay]

A game is "AAA" based on marketing, not on quality.

So it's marketing that separates Twilight Princess and No More Heroes? It seems like the extra millions in budget and thousands of hours of labor created a polished game that could then be marketed as AAA.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Since most of the real money comes from software a "flat" but good growth of hardware will ensure bigger and bigger sales of software (they obviously grow because the pool of owners expands) . I guess that is where the value is.

Don't forget live, more consoles = more Live gold/silver users = more Arcade games sales + more Zune sales + more stupid Avatar accesories + more money recived from ads = a signifcant amount of more money.

yeah, that`s why I hate to hear Reggie talking about wanting to have the Halo players play The Conduit. No, you don`t care, Reggie, say the truth.

They care, just they don't care enough. Nintendo still have a nice old school, loyal fanbase, obviously they want to keep those within them, and they are easily pleasable....

 

[Aspiring]

AMAZING at Wii numbers. But it has already won the battle. The real fun is with the PS3/360. Amazing that the PS3 outsold it. But as i said in last months NPD, it will just see saw with them. One month 360, next PS3. They will be fairly even from here on out. However will the PS3 sell it WW?

Anyway, is the Wii numbers are freaking amazing, but well done Sony.

 

[Castor Krieg]

I actually agree with all that you've said. it's nice improvement to the business from the xbox 1 days. insofar as it's actually a business now and its not just hemorrhaging money

It is hemorrhaging money alright, 6.5bln in the red currently. I expect their next console to be much smaller increase, bringing it much closer to profitability.

 

[EDarkness]

But it wouldn't be with 'core' games like Silent Hill.

I don't think people should use a game like Silent Hill. There WAS an HD version of that game released before this one and it didn't do so well, either. I could understand if they hadn't tried to make an HD game, but they have and the outcome was basically the same. It says to me that Silent Hill in general is just a dead franchise.

They care, just they don't care enough. Nintendo still have a nice old school, loyal fanbase, obviously they want to keep those within them, and they are easily pleasable....

I think they care, and I think they care a lot, but they can't force companies to make games for their systems. You think they don't wish they could boast a new big budget 3rd party game? I'm sure they'd kill for that, but unless they pay for it, I doubt they'll get what they want, and that's the sad part.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

you´re missing the point: third parties SHOULD care, because in the end, they´re the only ones losing money here.

People in this thread thinks that you only need throw money in marketing and you magically sell, not only enough to recover your massive investment on ads but enough to make money...and that it work 100% of times....and all will be flowers and rinbows on third paries and they will be saved from the evil HD twins....

 

[1-D_FTW]

So it's marketing that separates Twilight Princess and No More Heroes? It seems like the extra millions in budget and thousands of hours of labor created a polished game that could then be marketed as AAA.

I think a better example is to look at the 3rd party games on the top ten lists. Those games are always heavily advertised.

You look at a game like Borderlands. Had that been on the Wii (right), that's the type of game the suits would have written off and stealth released. I don't think it's a coincidence that the game was constantly being advertised on television and the fact it was a hit. Quality is great, but it's not what gets an unknown game to break through. You need both.

 

[Jocchan]

i don`t get all this talk here.

Is Silent Hill Wii a hardcore game? Yes. Hardcore gamers buy hardcore games. Casual gamers don`t buy hardcore game. If Silent Hill Wii sells like shit why do you blame Nintendo or the casual gamers? Blame the hardcore gamers, they are not buying games made for them. the casual gamers on the other hand are buying games made for them.

This is a very superficial way of approaching the question.
Not every "hardcore" gamer is interested in every single "hardcore" game out there, people simply buy the games they're interested into and the bullshit hardcore/casual dualism PR and media have been feeding us for the past three years is not only extremely superficial, but in the long run damaging to our industry because of how seriously this dualism is taken by inept decision-makers.

And that's the million dollar question. Are Nintendo ready to pour as much money and support into third party developers as Microsoft (the current subsidy king) have done this gen?

Because that's what they need to do to change this. Just providing the biggest userbase and promoting select titles (DQ, MH) has not been enough - they need to do more.

Yes, exactly. Launching a Wii+, even if they commit to a more "hardcore" tone in their marketing, would never win third parties alone. They'd need to work hard and spend lot of marketing money to get them to release quality products (actually, they'd have lots of options, but they've never been that interested into using them before... so, unless they change their policy nothing else will change).

Well I guess the question is, for how long?

Exactly.
The Wii has proven how the expanded audience doesn't feel committed to buy every single yearly iteration of the games they previously bought.
Many sequels on the Wii tend to sell less than their previous iterations, often leading to spectacular bombs. This has often much to do with the previous game ending up being disappointing and not living up to its premise (Rock Band is a notable example: people bought the gimped first game in droves, exceeding Xbox360 LTD in less time, but RB2 sold notably less and probably the resonance of the RB franchise on the Wii - compared to Guitar Hero - is now ruined forever). But this also has to do with them not really needing a sequel that's more of the same and without any novelty (see the sales of minigame collections collapsing, or the general decline of music games everywhere).

There's no one to blame.

If hardcore players don't want these games it's their perogative as much as it's 'casuals' perogative not to buy them either.

If the market's small or not there to a large extent then it's not really anyone's fault.

People who berate third parties are missing the point - if their 'core' stuff doesn't sell on the system, there's little incentive for them to keep putting that stuff on it. It's like giving out people aren't trying to sell hardcore rock albums at a Britney Spears market. You might sell a few...but that's not where the market is, really.

People who berate Nintendo are missing the point too - Nintendo doesn't give a toss about these games. Why would they? Their market doesn't care about them, the presence of them nor the absence of them, quite clearly.

People who berate 'hardcore' gamers are also missing the point - why should they feel obliged to buy these games if they don't really want them? Outside of the 'core' Nintendo fan, the broader 'core' is too distracted elsewhere to take a trip down memory lane (technology-wise) for the sake of motion control.

There's no one to blame. It's how the market is. If you're a wii owner frustrated by the lack of core games then join a market that sustains them. No one else really cares, not third parties, not Nintendo...no one.

I don't agree about Nintendo not caring about traditional gamers. It would be an extremely short-sighted policy for such a conservative and risk-averse company, considering they would be relying on a proven unreliable audience that might leave them any day (something enthusiast gamers have proven they never do as long as good games keep coming).
They should care about traditional gamers even more than this expanded audience, because new and compelling ideas can't be scheduled forever.

EDIT:

I don't think people should use a game like Silent Hill. There WAS an HD version of that game released before this one and it didn't do so well, either. I could understand if they hadn't tried to make an HD game, but they have and the outcome was basically the same. It says to me that Silent Hill in general is just a dead franchise.

I really hope Shattered Memories sales have a long tail because of positive word of mouth, but just because it's a really good game apparently (and Silent Hill is one of my favourite franchises ever, if not my single favourite one).
While it still has a chance to match Homecoming's sales, it will still stay a bomb (like Homecoming is) and even if it does match them you can bet everyone will keep using it as a blatant example of the lack of "hardcore" gamers in the Wii crowd (ignoring Homecoming and Origins completely).

 

[wayward archer]

i don`t get all this talk here.

Is Silent Hill Wii a hardcore game? Yes. Hardcore gamers buy hardcore games. Casual gamers don`t buy hardcore game. If Silent Hill Wii sells like shit why do you blame Nintendo or the casual gamers? Blame the hardcore gamers, they are not buying games made for them. the casual gamers on the other hand are buying games made for them.

Why would you blame someone for not buying something they aren't interested in.

It's not really Nintendo's fault either, the fact is most people buy the hardware for nintendo games only, and 3rd parties are sometimes lulled into the false belief they have a massive potential audience for their games, when they really don't.

 

[JudgeN]

People in this thread thinks that you only need throw money in marketing and you magically sell, not only enough to recover your massive investment on ads but enough to make money...and that it work 100% of times....and all will be flowers and rinbows on third paries and they will be saved from the evil HD twins....

So true, they also think "be like Nintendo" is also this easy magic answer that guarantee 100% success and profits. It is not that easy and there are many other factors involved.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

EDIT:

I really hope Shattered Memories sales have a long tail because of positive word of mouth, but just because it's a really good game apparently.
While it still has a chance to match Homecoming's sales, it will still stay a bomb (like Homecoming is) and even if it does match them you can bet everyone will keep using it as a blatant example of the lack of "hardcore" gamers in the Wii crowd (ignoring Homecoming and Origins completely).

Homecoming had a lot of backslash since it was announced from the SH tradiotional fans, had bad word of mouth and filled with mixed reviews. From a niche saga like that that awfully bad signs...and bombed, and hard...ok, but that dosn't change that SM bombed....

And the problem here, is every new example of a 3rd party game doing bad, is dismissed, with the same arguments and the same 2yr old counter examples. I really belive there's a market for "hardcore" games on Wii, but it's obviously getting less and less significant since the Wii launch.

It is hemorrhaging money alright, 6.5bln in the red currently. I expect their next console to be much smaller increase, bringing it much closer to profitability.

Those loses came from the xbox era, the xbox division has been profitable from some years now (high priced accesories, Live! gold users, etc...), whatever they loss from the hardware they recover it from other ways...

 

[gofreak]

I don't agree about Nintendo not caring about traditional gamers. It would be an extremely short-sighted policy for such a conservative and risk-averse company, considering they would be relying on a proven unreliable audience that might leave them any day (something enthusiast gamers have proven they never do as long as good games keep coming).
They should care about traditional gamers even more than this expanded audience, because new and compelling ideas can't be scheduled forever.

But there's not much risk here. They don't have much to lose at all vs where they were in the N64/GCN days.

The newbies can come and go, but they can keep their loyal bitches on a chain forever. I count myself among them They won't 'lose' those folks even if the house comes tumbling down. No matter how neglected 'we' might feel, 'we' will always line up for Nintendo hardware for Mario & Zelda. We may go elsewhere between times, but we'll always be there for their 'traditional' games.

They know that. They know they can take their eye off us and we won't go anywhere. They care about us to the extent that, yes - we are their 'bad-times security', always there to help at least keep them ticking over, but they're by no means worried about losing us. And we're not a growth opportunity for them. And they don't need us, nor 'broader' core gamers to sustain massive growth - quite clearly now.

So no...I don't think they really care about third parties catering to us on their platform*. They know their own stuff is enough to keep a certain guaranteed minimum of support from 'core Nintendo fans' going into the future. The 'broader core' aren't so loyal anyway either - why spend more money on this group if you can spend less catering to others and more of them? Their new market is far more satisfying - cheaper to dev for, and seemingly boundless in scope - and only a little less loyal than 'regular core' gamers. 'Regular core' are an inefficient target next to their new audience, and carry no greater guarantees about future support if the newbs abandon them.

edit - * just another note - how well did third parties cater to 'us' on other Nintendo platforms? Not very well. But this didn't shake that 'core traditional' Nintendo fan. So Nintendo is well used to it, they know the risk of losing that traditional fan support is low.

 

[NemesisPrime]

It is hemorrhaging money alright, 6.5bln in the red currently. I expect their next console to be much smaller increase, bringing it much closer to profitability.

Hu?

Pulling stuff out of your ass doesn't cut it.

 

[otake]

I'm surprised the PS3 didn't sell more. It's become much more useful since netflix streaming. Right now I have the blu-ray version of Sin City shipping to my place, while I wait I've been watching tudors on netflix instant queue. It's great. I don't even use it for games anymore.

I've no idea why you'd buy a 360 anymore. Seems like a silly decision, all things considered.

 

[Castor Krieg]

Hu?

Pulling stuff out of your ass doesn't cut it.

http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=18269957&postcount=75

 

[Nirolak]

http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=18269957&postcount=75

You're including the Xbox 1 there. Reread what you originally quoted.

Originally Posted by LCfiner:
I actually agree with all that you've said. it's nice improvement to the business from the xbox 1 days. insofar as it's actually a business now and its not just hemorrhaging money

 

[NemesisPrime]

http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=18269957&postcount=75

Lol... I think you proved my point.

 

[hednik4am]

I really hope Shattered Memories sales have a long tail because of positive word of mouth, but just because it's a really good game apparently (and Silent Hill is one of my favourite franchises ever, if not my single favourite one).
While it still has a chance to match Homecoming's sales, it will still stay a bomb (like Homecoming is) and even if it does match them you can bet everyone will keep using it as a blatant example of the lack of "hardcore" gamers in the Wii crowd (ignoring Homecoming and Origins completely).

Sadly enough I ordered it for the PS2 instead... I still can't justify the purchase of a Wii for a game thats 30 on the PS and Still 50 on the Wi... I see these sales and try to convince myself to buy one as well and then I see my son play a friends Wii and everytime its 5 minutes of fun then he doesn't care anymore...

 

[Castor Krieg]

You're including the Xbox 1 there. Go reread what you originally quoted.

Am I to assume the costs of Xbox 1 magically disappeared the moment X360 launched? This was what I quoted:

I actually agree with all that you've said. it's nice improvement to the business from the xbox 1 days. insofar as it's actually a business now and its not just hemorrhaging money

Now look at 2005-07, which include the cost of introducing X360. Microsoft didn't even make up for that, not to mention costs for inrducing the original Xbox.

 

[BowieZ]

So true, they also think "be like Nintendo" is also this easy magic answer that guarantee 100% success and profits. It is not that easy and there are many other factors involved.

People in this thread thinks that you only need throw money in marketing and you magically sell, not only enough to recover your massive investment on ads but enough to make money...and that it work 100% of times....and all will be flowers and rinbows on third paries and they will be saved from the evil HD twins....

Umm... okay. The problem is people don't really KNOW what would happen... it's unpredictable... because it hasn't been tried yet! :lol

Where are the quality Wii games (Nintendo's or third-parties') with broad appeal that were advertised lots (and to the right people) that have failed?

The hard part isn't the business formula so much as the publisher's decision to say "yes, we will take a risk and spend lots of money on a really really great game that appeals to a broad range of people (i.e. isn't ANOTHER fucking violent horror game or interactive children's cartoon) with different difficulty levels, and advertise it a lot and advertise it well."

And yes, if that is attempted a couple of times, and it fails, then publishers/developers will be vindicated. But you really think that would fail?

 

[hednik4am]

Wii = only first party software

360/ps3 = only third party software

Together the industry is healthy?

I look at this from a parents point of view... Everytime I think hey i bit my kid would love a Wii, instead of the PS3 we got at Christmas, we go over to a friends house and he plays the Wii for 15 minutes and then gets his fill and he doesnt ask again. We sit down and play some mw2 spec ops or some resistance a few nights a week and he we have a good time for an hour or two and its not just a toy he's picked up and then dropped after he's bored with it. Parents buy these for their kids and sadly I think kid view the Wii as a toy and the HD console as an experience... imho

 

[Nirolak]

Am I to assume the costs of Xbox 1 magically disappeared the moment X360 launched? This was what I quoted:



Now look at 2005-07, which include the cost of introducing X360. Microsoft didn't even make up for that, not to mention costs for inrducing the original Xbox.

The concept behind the business though is to make money in the future. They expected to lose a ton of money in the first part, but when they do that it's considered an investment.

Like when you open a Target, you don't make your money back right away, but over many years, then you eventually make a profit.

Even though they switched consoles, they brand as a whole has turned around from a business that's losing money to a business that's making money, and in fact pulling up the other products in the division you're listing earnings from.

When shareholders look at Microsoft's sales, they want to know if the business is currently growing, representing an increase in value to them, not whether or not it is the Xbox 1 made money in 2002, as that's not a great concern to them anymore.

If they think taking a large loss on the next Xbox will help them earn even more in the future, they'll absolutely be willing to do it, because they don't rely on the product to survive, and it ultimately represents a much larger increase in profits to them.

I can't know if they think taking that loss will help them even more in the future, but we can't rule that out either.

 

[BowieZ]

I look at this from a parents point of view... Everytime I think hey i bit my kid would love a Wii, instead of the PS3 we got at Christmas, we go over to a friends house and he plays the Wii for 15 minutes and then gets his fill and he doesnt ask again. We sit down and play some mw2 spec ops or some resistance a few nights a week and he we have a good time for an hour or two and its not just a toy he's picked up and then dropped after he's bored with it. Parents buy these for their kids and sadly I think kid view the Wii as a toy and the HD console as an experience... imho

How old is this MW-loving child of yours? :/

And nice anecdotal contribution btw

 

[pakkit]

If you own a Wii and haven't bought Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, let it be known that I hate you a little bit.

 

[JGS]

I think they care, and I think they care a lot, but they can't force companies to make games for their systems. You think they don't wish they could boast a new big budget 3rd party game? I'm sure they'd kill for that, but unless they pay for it, I doubt they'll get what they want, and that's the sad part.

Agreed. I don't think Nintendo is not the one damaging 3rd parties

-Honestly, every other game on the Nintendo channel is hyping a 3rd party game (an obscure 3rd party game at that).
-They have links and game information on [nearly?] every Wii game ever released
-You can look at the play times of many games to see how interesting people who own it think it is.
-You can look on the Internet Channel for reviews of the game.

Now if Casual Wii owners are not looking on the Wii itself for info, why would they look anywhere else. This is why it takes commercials and they need to be outside of G4 & MTV.

My biggest problem has been addressed many times. Uncertainty of quality. This isn't that big of a deal for me since I'm on here looking for info, but most people are sure of only one thing- Nintendo product may or may not be the best, but it's solid which is what people want for their 50 bucks.

Speaking of price, Nintendo could keep their pricing at 49.99 since they are far and away #1 in software sales. However, most 3rd party software should be $40.00 at most in terms of content alone. Nintendo could cut the licensing fee to accomodate this. This is kind of a reverse model of 1st party games supposedly being cheaper.

For example, RE 4 did not sell well just because it was a great game. It was also $30.00 from the get go. WiiFit+ is only $20.00, so why would anyone pay more than that (except for EA Active which is arguably better) for a WiiFit knock-off?

 

[gkryhewy]

If you own a Wii and haven't bought Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, let it be known that I hate you a little bit.

I'll buy it eventually, but I wait for all games to fall into the $20-30 range before buying them. Usually $20 or below. Sorry.

 

[Cruzader]

So can someone tell me a few reasons why Sony's 1st party titles never do that well?? I mean if you always see NPDs, the best selling software is always 3rd party stuff on PS3. They always break 1 million easier or have an easier time doing do. I know that not all 3rd party software, just the AAA titles.(COD/Madden/GTA). But even then, 1st party titles never sell like they should. Like why does Batman: AA, sell more then Infamous(or ratchet) in its first month? Obviously both came out in different times but still batman sold more.(maybe bad example, sorry) Why? Like I feel these games should be selling over 900K easily in its first month but most of the time do 1/3 of that.

Forgive my ignorance but to me, it seems like these titles never sell that well unless we are talking long term.