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[ThatObviousUser]

Poor Bayonetta

Also GaF's impressions kinda' steered me away from NMH2.

What impressions?

 

[Kusagari]

The brawler genre hasn't really been popular since the 16-bit days. That publishers can't set expectations and budget around that shows poor management.

I think neither Bayonetta sales nor Mad World sales are good. However, Mad World is at least in a genre that shows a consistent trend (i.e. selling poorly at least since the late PS1/N64 days). Bayonetta is in a genre that has consistent 250k+ sellers.

And Bayonetta will easily sell 250k+ lifetime in the U.S. Bayonetta was never going to be some amazing hit. Not even DMC is as popular here as people seem to think.

 

[soldat7]

On No More Heroes 2 "proving" core games don't sell on Wii:

Is there any evidence to the contrary? Maybe the Wii is just a miserable little pile of secrets.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Is there any evidence to the contrary? Maybe the Wii is just a miserable little pile of secrets.

Here we go.

 

[justchris]

Yeah that was a good one..did anyone see it air anywhere? Not doubting it, I just personally never saw it.

I totally saw the TvC commercial, its how I remembered to buy it (I haven't been playing much besides Star Trek Online lately). At first I thought it was a Robot Chicken commercial (it was done in the same style) :lol

 

[Curufinwe]

Not even DMC is as popular here as people seem to think.

True. Capcom did very well to get both versions of DMC 4 in the top 4 of NPD sales when it was released in February 2008.

 

[soldat7]

Here we go.

Many of the 'core' third-party releases turn out the same way. Perhaps it's the fault of marketing, perhaps it's the audience, or maybe these 'core' games are not very good and the customer knows this...again, to third-party developers it's a miserable little pile of secrets.

 

[AniHawk]

Is there any evidence to the contrary?

Lots of games sell really poorly when they would obviously do much better on other systems, but this is one case where it really was UbiSoft's fault. There's no reason they should have handled the game's release quite like they did. Just look at TVC- it's an unknown to the audience, released on the same day, but marketed much better and might've sold twice as much.

 

[Doorman]

I remember wondering about a week before NMH2 and TvC came out which one would end up being the better seller. I ended up with sort of a stalemate at the time because I figured that the base the first No More Heroes established would help to even out the fact that it didn't receive much marketing. Now that I look back on it though, it seems so obvious which publisher put more faith into their product and the sales are reflecting that.

50k in a month doesn't seem stellar for TatsuCap, but considering it was only out for a week or so I feel encouraged about it. With at least serviceable online play and growing fan support, I could see it carrying a decent February and beyond, at least with moreso of a long haul than some of the other "core" Wii games that haven't been doing as well. After playing it I certainly think it deserves any success it gets.

On the other side, I'm really surprised that Bayonetta and Dark Void both came in lower than expected, considering the amount of advertising I've seen for both. What else could SEGA or Capcom really have done to get these things off the shelves?

 

[Owzers]

Lots of games sell really poorly when they would obviously do much better on other systems, but this is one case where it really was UbiSoft's fault. There's no reason they should have handled the game's release quite like they did. Just look at TVC- it's an unknown to the audience, released on the same day, but marketed much better and might've sold twice as much.

Maybe the people who bought No More Heroes just aren't eager for a second helping. I bought the first one after much hype and found it to be a "sometimes great, mostly mediocre" title. I'm not exactly throwing my money down on day one for a second chance.

 

[markatisu]

Many of the 'core' third-party releases turn out the same way. Perhaps it's the fault of marketing, perhaps it's the audience, or maybe these 'core' games are not very good and the customer knows this...again, to third-party developers it's a miserable little pile of secrets.

From EEDAR

No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle has scored top reviews averaging a 90 (out of 100) since its release. However, sales came less than 30,000 units for its first week (January 26, 2010 release). Given that the game is more targeted to the traditional core gamers (who tend to be more attached to the Xbox 360 and PS3) this is yet another sign that the Wii is a difficult device for third party publishers to succeed on with M Rated titles. Other titles that have failed to perform despite strong review scores on the Wii include Dead Space: Extraction (ERTS) and MadWorld (Sega). Of course, all three titles did have low marketing budgets, which is likely the wrong strategy to use when attempting to target the Wii consumer, even if you are targeting the “core” market.

Most "core" games go unadvertised to the same extent that games like Just Dance, Carnival Games, Guitar Hero do. Its not a complete excuse but I wish people would stop acting like No More Heroes was handled by Ubisoft the same way something like Assassins Creed II, Mass Effect II, or even Bayonetta was.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Many of the 'core' third-party releases turn out the same way. Perhaps it's the fault of marketing, perhaps it's the audience, or maybe these 'core' games are not very good and the customer knows this...again, to third-party developers it's a miserable little pile of secrets.

This will devolve into a Wii 3rd party sales discussion yet again. The usual recycled neverending arguments.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Whoa, 50k+?! Nice! It outsold CGoH!

 

[Massa]

And about triple the time.

Do you expect Mass Effect 2 to double its sales in the next 3 months?

 

[EDarkness]

I remember wondering about a week before NMH2 and TvC came out which one would end up being the better seller. I ended up with sort of a stalemate at the time because I figured that the base the first No More Heroes established would help to even out the fact that it didn't receive much marketing. Now that I look back on it though, it seems so obvious which publisher put more faith into their product and the sales are reflecting that.

50k in a month doesn't seem stellar for TatsuCap, but considering it was only out for a week or so I feel encouraged about it. With at least serviceable online play and growing fan support, I could see it carrying a decent February and beyond, at least with moreso of a long haul than some of the other "core" Wii games that haven't been doing as well. After playing it I certainly think it deserves any success it gets.

On the other side, I'm really surprised that Bayonetta and Dark Void both came in lower than expected, considering the amount of advertising I've seen for both. What else could SEGA or Capcom really have done to get these things off the shelves?

Marvelous going with Ubisoft for No More Heroes 2 was a bad idea. I don't think MMV got the kind of service they were expecting from a huge publisher and if I were them, I'd be seriously pissed off. Either way, I own both games, but that wouldn't be represented on NPD charts.

 

[sdornan]

On the other side, I'm really surprised that Bayonetta and Dark Void both came in lower than expected, considering the amount of advertising I've seen for both. What else could SEGA or Capcom really have done to get these things off the shelves?

In Bayonetta's case, it was doomed to begin with since it's a very Japanese game in a now somewhat niche genre.

In Dark Void's case, made a better game. The game's style and overall theme seem fine and designed to appeal to the majority of gamers, but the reviews caused a lot of people to pass on it.

 

[soldat7]

This will devolve into a Wii 3rd party sales discussion yet again. The usual recycled neverending arguments.

True. Not going there again.

 

[AniHawk]

Maybe the people who bought No More Heroes just aren't eager for a second helping. I bought the first one after much hype and found it to be a "sometimes great, mostly mediocre" title. I'm not exactly throwing my money down on day one for a second chance.

I agree that could be part of it, but it really doesn't explain such a sharp drop. My copy was one of a few left at the store (day one- got it with ME2). I thought it was because it was decently popular. Now hearing that people can't find it in stores, I have to wonder if there just weren't many shipped to begin with.

 

[EDarkness]

I agree that could be part of it, but it really doesn't explain such a sharp drop. My copy was one of a few left at the store (day one- got it with ME2). I thought it was because it was decently popular. Now hearing that people can't find it in stores, I have to wonder if there just weren't many shipped to begin with.

From what I've heard that's the case. Just weren't that many shipped to begin with and no real push for the game. Perhaps it would have sold more if there were more copies floating around.

 

[markatisu]

I agree that could be part of it, but it really doesn't explain such a sharp drop. My copy was one of a few left at the store (day one- got it with ME2). I thought it was because it was decently popular. Now hearing that people can't find it in stores, I have to wonder if there just weren't many shipped to begin with.

Yeah I think it was a low shipment. I know at my Gamestop they only had enough to fill preorders and none in stock for regular customers.

Reminds me of the launch of the first game where Targets did not stock it at all till it had reached the $19.99 price point.

 

[AniHawk]

Do you expect Mass Effect 2 to double its sales in the next 3 months?

I was referring to UC2's first month. It had about triple the time to reach 560k. ME2 did more in less time.

 

[Owzers]

Dark Void seems to have gotten Bionic Commando'ed. When it was initially announced people were interested but then it got bad impressions, a weird demo that some liked and others hated, and bad reviews. Of course Dark Void also got a nice huge delay into the release period of games with consistently good impressions and " forward motion" hype schedule.

 

[Milabrega]

Just making up possible excuses for the NMH > NMH2 decline.

The first game may have been off putting for some who may not want to return to the sequel in a greater number than those who skipped the first but may jump into the second would be. Competition is much steeper this time around than in '08, two major competing release date titles, and tougher competition surrounding it. Both new releases and stronger holiday holdovers from 09-'10 than '07-'08. You also have to consider economic factors, the first NMH dropped in price very quickly, so there can be a slim few waiting on the inevitable drop. Ubisoft games on their own have a quick turn around from release to first price drop, so its no surprise a title Ubisoft doesn't have as much vested interest in as internally developed title would see that drop just as, if not more rapidly.

 

[Dragmire]

Is there any evidence to the contrary? Maybe the Wii is just a miserable little pile of secrets.

There have been no games to provide evidence. What hardcore games have come out on Wii that follow the same business model as successful hardcore games on 360, PS3 and PC? Aka, not niches, inferior ports, or mediocre games, but games with good graphics, online, deep gameplay, co-op...

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Whoa, 50k+?! Nice! It outsold CGoH!

Is that number confirmed? By whom?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

How long did it take for the original NMH to pass the 100k that we were celebrating 2 years ago?

 

[Owzers]

There have been no games to provide evidence. What hardcore games have come out on Wii that follow the same business model as successful hardcore games on 360, PS3 and PC? Aka, not niches, inferior ports, or mediocre games, but games with good graphics, online, deep gameplay, co-op...

There isn't a lot of evidence that a core game can't sell on wii, however there are a lot of dead bodies stacked up in the shape of a fort in the Wii's basement.


The problem, imo, is that Wii fans tend to use Wii's ginormous install base as a mandate for third parties to release core games on the system. Even a niche core game in theory should do better on Wii than ps3/360, not equal to or slightly less.

Ubisoft cut sales expectations for Red Steel 2 iirc so i wonder if they will put out the money for tv ads, but IF it gets good reviews i'll be curious to see how well it sells given that a crappy Red Steel at launch snuck into peoples homes without them noticing, if they turn the light on and see Red Steel 2 eating their pizza, will they call the cops or put on some coffee? Apparently after midnight i type run-on sentences. Assassin's Creed survived a mediocre first game, i think Red Steel can as well.

 

[AniHawk]

How long did it take for the original NMH to pass the 100k that we were celebrating 2 years ago?

About a month.

 

[speculawyer]

Lots of games sell really poorly when they would obviously do much better on other systems, but this is one case where it really was UbiSoft's fault. There's no reason they should have handled the game's release quite like they did. Just look at TVC- it's an unknown to the audience, released on the same day, but marketed much better and might've sold twice as much.

What is the point of making these excuses? The facts are in.

Do you really think the publishers are going to pour more money into failure? Perhaps the reason they did not give it much of a marketing budget is that they already realized it was a hopeless cause. They just finished up the game and shipped it so they could recoup some of their investment. But don't plan on seeing NMH3.

 

[WickedLaharl]

i know the writing has been on the wall for a long long time but man the psp is fucked.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

What is the point of making these excuses? The facts are in.

Do you really think the publishers are going to pour more money into failure? Perhaps the reason they don't get much of a marketing budget is that they already realized it was a hopeless cause. They just finished up the game and shipped it so they could recoup some of their investment. But don't plan on seeing NMH3.

What

Ubisoft didn't make NMH. They published it in the US, which almost solely centers around marketing and distribution. Marvelous handled the rest of the cost.

 

[speculawyer]

What

Ubisoft didn't make NMH. They published it in the US, which almost solely centers around marketing and distribution. Marvelous handled the rest of the cost.

Uh . . OK . . . but that really doesn't change things.

 

[Doorman]

So if it took about or over a month for the first NMH to reach 100k, then the real test will see how it pulls through February. If it pulled about 30k in the week or so it had in January, then it may in fact be on pace to match the sales of the first game. A bit more love put into pushing the game could have caused it to actually surpass it's predecessor, that's the real shame.

What is the point of making these excuses? The facts are in.

Do you really think the publishers are going to pour more money into failure? Perhaps the reason they don't get much of a marketing budget is that they already realized it was a hopeless cause. They just finished up the game and shipped it so they could recoup some of their investment. But don't plan on seeing NMH3.

Doesn't that just create a self-defeating prophecy then? "There's no point in marketing the game, since it's just going to fail anyway. Oh look, it failed, I guess our next game will do the same thing, so we might as well not market it, either." Advertising doesn't guarantee success, but when the shelves are stocked with tons of Wii games of dubious quality and intended audience, a lack of push can certainly guarantee failure.

 

[markatisu]

What is the point of making these excuses? The facts are in.

Do you really think the publishers are going to pour more money into failure? Perhaps the reason they did not give it much of a marketing budget is that they already realized it was a hopeless cause. They just finished up the game and shipped it so they could recoup some of their investment. But don't plan on seeing NMH3.

You do realize who the developer was right :lol

You are speaking as if Ubisoft poured some massive amount of money into game development or something. Its a Suda51 game which automatically means it has to be done on a shoestring budget like all the rest of the Grasshopper games are.

I will save this post for when NMH3 (or whatever the next one) gets announced, since the 1st one is now being ported to the HD systems and Suda has expressed interest on continuing the franchise.

But then again I think you are trolling just to get a response, that is what you do most of the time anyway

 

[jamesinclair]

Is there a minimum number you have to hit or you get delisted from the NPDs (looking at you, PS2)?

NPD never stops tracking consoles. The full report includes NES, as long as a single unit is sold.


Now, a public release.....Id say sub 15,000, if my memory of the final xbox month is right.


I wouldnt be surprised if we get one more year of PS2. February and March sales will be crap, but I can see it doing 100k next December, especially if theres a price drop.

 

[Wellscha]

It's not the marketing. It's the freakin audience. American manboys, I being one, want to aim guns at each other and talk trash over the internet. MW2 is a mediocre game at best, but enjoys massive sales.

EDIT: What worries me is if the trend continues a lot of Japanese dev/pubs are going to say "the hell" with western audiences and we won't anything from the east. The funny thing about that is is that Mario is about as American as you can get.

Alas, this is becoming true.. I weep for the future.

 

[EDarkness]

What is the point of making these excuses? The facts are in.

Do you really think the publishers are going to pour more money into failure? Perhaps the reason they did not give it much of a marketing budget is that they already realized it was a hopeless cause. They just finished up the game and shipped it so they could recoup some of their investment. But don't plan on seeing NMH3.

It they were going into it with that attitude, then why even bother publishing it? It wouldn't be in MMV's best interest to have a publisher who doesn't want to get behind a game they're publishing. It's silly. MMV would have been better served by a publisher who had faith in their product to begin with.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Many of the 'core' third-party releases turn out the same way. Perhaps it's the fault of marketing, perhaps it's the audience, or maybe these 'core' games are not very good and the customer knows this...again, to third-party developers it's a miserable little pile of secrets.

Thing is the "core" gamer wants crazy graphics, its not going to happen on the wii. So unless big N makes some new Mario, Zelda, (edit +2d metroid ) ... hardcore gamers just pass. Anyway thats how I feel about the wii... prime time big N titles or pass!

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Is that number confirmed? By whom?

Would also like some confirmation for the TvC number.

 

[ivysaur12]

If TvC hit 50k, then I'd call that a success... sadly.

 

[somedevil]

NMH sold in 12 days 66,000 and NMH2 sold I guess 25,000 in 5 days. So its hard to determine more until next month npd. The whole problem was ubisoft advertised the original much more than desperate struggle.

Also if there is NMH 3 it won't be till the next generation systems.

 

[Truespeed]

I'm not sure why people thought Bayonetta would actually do well. Sega marketed the game using the same amount of expertise and effort they applied when porting it to the PS3. So, it was destined to fail, just like the frame rate, screen tearing and graphics do on the PS3. I can't think of any recent game that has garnered so much negative publicity and anger before its actual release.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Uh . . OK . . . but that really doesn't change things.

It kind of does

You said Ubisoft pushed the game out to recoup costs after knowing (or assuming) it would fail

Do you really think the publishers are going to pour more money into failure? Perhaps the reason they did not give it much of a marketing budget is that they already realized it was a hopeless cause. They just finished up the game and shipped it so they could recoup some of their investment. But don't plan on seeing NMH3.

They made a choice to publish the game, it was their job to market it and they chose not to, and the only costs they incurred were production (of the actual discs) and distribution.

So your logic is that Ubisoft did not bother advertising the game because they didn't think it was worth it after all that zero dollars they spent. They "finished up the game and shipped it" (not true, but okay) to recoup some of the investment they did not make.

Whether NMH2 would have done well with an ad campaign or not is immaterial to this point - they didn't try and it's not like they were footing the bill on development, so there goes your theory.

I think the only people worse than those that reach for excuses are those that reach for excuses AND have no idea what they're talking about. Both are driven by agendas, but your brand lowers the standard of discourse far more.

 

[Codeblue]

Interestingly enough, word of mouth is what got me to buy the first game, and now it's making me wait on the sequel. My friends raved about the original but were really disappointed with a lot of things in NMH2, so I decided to wait for a price drop.

 

[ivysaur12]

I'm not sure why people thought Bayonetta would actually do well. Sega marketed the game using the same amount of expertise and effort they applied when porting it to the PS3. So, it was destined to fail, just like the frame rate, screen tearing and graphics do on the PS3. I can't think of any recent game that has garnered so much negative publicity and anger before its actual release.

I don't think that's a reason to think it failed. If that's the case, then people would have just bought the 360 version in droves.

 

[Owzers]

Alas, this is becoming true.. I weep for the future.

Let's not pretend these eastern games are tearing up the charts in Japan either and it's just the FPS crazed Americans who are turning their nose at them. There's a reason why Capcom started to focus on games that would appeal to the west and hopefully their home country too. Lost Planet and Dead Rising were big successes....they just need to stop farming so many games out.

 

[JoseJX]

Do you really think the publishers are going to pour more money into failure?

Seems to be working well for the PSP, it gets more "core" games than the Wii does despite the awful software sales numbers.

 

[speculawyer]

You do realize who the developer was right :lol

You are speaking as if Ubisoft poured some massive amount of money into game development or something. Its a Suda51 game which automatically means it has to be done on a shoestring budget like all the rest of the Grasshopper games are.

I will save this post for when NMH3 (or whatever the next one) gets announced, since the 1st one is now being ported to the HD systems and Suda has expressed interest on continuing the franchise.

But then again I think you are trolling just to get a response, that is what you do most of the time anyway

Obviously I don't know much about the franchise.

Well, if it is successful in Japan, then they probably will keep making them. But if those North American sales are their bread & butter, I doubt they'll keep making them.

And they'll especially keep making them if they make an HD version and it brings in some money. But the making of an HD version kinda supports my whole point, doesn't it?

 

[ElyrionX]

People who expected Bayonetta to do well seriously need to get a clue. That game had so many factors going against it that it would have been surprising if it had broken the top ten.

 

[speculawyer]

Seems to working well for the PSP, it gets more "core" games than the Wii does despite the awful software sales numbers.

The amount of development for the PSP really seems to have slowed down. Piracy does seem to be killing the platform. :-/