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NPD Sales Results for June 2014 [Up3: All Hardware (June/LTD), Top 10 Software SKUs]

They will make Wii U a console you buy as the main Nintendo box, with their full library since the gameboy days, with as much indie games as possible. At one point their userbase will be big enough to get back some publishers on board, line Ubisoft or EA, on few titles that don't rely on graphics or cinematic experiences. I don't believe Nintendo will make their future choices on big 3rd party AAA games. I don.t believe that like, AT ALL.

Will there even be a market for them by then? Deep into the gen I really doubt Ubisoft and EA bother to jump on board. Even if Nintendo is depending on indies as stop gaps (which is a decent strategy) their online system is so backwards they are going to have trouble coaxing people to bite. They will not last 7 years on the WiiU, it's not possible. Honestly, if they want to see anything resembling a WiiU recovery, I think they need to drop the price of the system come september. They won't but I think they should.
 

Tookay

Member
They will make Wii U a console you buy as the main Nintendo box, with their full library since the gameboy days, with as much indie games as possible. At one point their userbase will be big enough to get back some publishers on board, line Ubisoft or EA, on few titles that don't rely on graphics or cinematic experiences. I don't believe Nintendo will make their future choices on big 3rd party AAA games. I don.t believe that like, AT ALL.

That isn't happening. Ever.

Even if the Wii U experiences growth in sales, it would still take 2-3 years for a third-party developer to take advantage of it.

By that time any opportunity will be gone (again), and rather than risk that, publishers are just going to sit the Wii U out permanently.
 
Depends on who ends up on top. Sony saw virtually no competition in Gen5 and Gen6, and yet I'd argue those were easily the best 10 years in console history in terms of software, particularly in terms of variety — the very same "niche/moneyhatted" games you describe. Despite completely dominating the market, Sony took the initiative in publishing those niche games that otherwise may have never seen the light of day due to the startup costs, even though the core design philosophy of the PS1 itself was lowering the cost barriers for developers through optical discs. Sony took the money they were raking in and used it to fund small developers that went otherwise ignored by the likes of EA. You could say the corporate philosophy was, "Share the wealth, and we all get richer."

Of course, you also have companies with different philosophies, like MS. Once they were comfortable with their position in the marketplace with the XB360, they all but abandoned core game development, apart from the money-printers, Halo, Forza, and Gears. They attracted people to the brand by paying lip service to small developers, but once MS had the userbase, they didn't need to waste time with the small-potatoes devs, and could instead invest that money in to DRM research and biometric advertising survey cameras. Their corporate philosophy might be described as, "Hoard the wealth, and we get richer."

Different companies, different philosophies, different behavior. While it may be safe to assume that a given company will act as you describe once they've achieved market dominance, you can't then assume that all companies will act in the same fashion. Sony and MS are actually perfect of examples of how two different companies will leverage their dominance in different ways, given the opportunity. Institutions like these don't really change their basic behavior and strategies. There's a reason the very word institution has come to mean something which doesn't change. "Corporate DNA" would be the buzzwordy way of describing it, I suppose.

You mention Arrogant Sony, but their biggest mistake was in designing an $800 console, which was certainly the most badass console around, but it was still a hefty investment. So they sold me my 20GB on launch day for $500, effectively giving me their uber gaming box, and still leaving me $300 to spend on software. So I got $800 worth of hardware, and five free games of my choosing. Maybe as many as a dozen free games, if I spent my pennies wisely. So yeah, fuck you very much, Arrogant Sony. /facepalm

Hardware pricing does bring up another advantage of market dominance that I forgot to mention though; less money wasted on hardware, meaning more money spent on software instead. Let's look at a "competitive" scenario, where you have two equally viable platforms — not a bad choice to be made either way. You have a situation where it's a coin toss which platform a given user ends up on, and the more appealing both systems are, the more consumers who will feel compelled to buy both systems.

Let's look at our pool of 100M gamers again. We'll say 5M are Team Green, and will never buy anything but MS, and we have another 5M on Team Blue. With equally viable platforms, you might have 70M more who flip their coin, so you have 40M of each console sold. Then the remaining 20M gamers get both platforms, so they don't miss anything important. So we have 120M pieces of hardware sold, in to a market of only 100M customers. Sounds like a pretty healthy market, right?

Well, let's compare it to dominance. Team Green dutifully buy their 5M XBoxen, and Team Blue their 5M PlayStations. Now we have another 85M who decide PlayStation is the obvious choice, given the price and capabilities of the hardware, and Sony's excellent track record getting games made, especially when they're dominant. The remaining 5M buy both platforms, so they don't miss anything important. So now we have 105M units sold to our 100M gamers, a 13% contraction in the hardware market. Panic ensues.

Except that's a good thing. The extra 15M units weren't really doing anyone any good. We still have 100M gamers buying games either way. Even the platform holder doesn't benefit, as those units are being sold at cost, or worse. The primary effect of those 15M units is to pull an additional $4.5B (yes, billion) out of the pockets of gamers. That's $4,500,000,000 that could've been spent on games, but instead it was pissed away on hardware because competition. Tell Bobby Kotick you know how to get people to spend an additional half-billion a year on games and see if he perks up at all.

Really insightful post. I've used the phrase "arrogant Sony" to describe the PS3 era before, and I do think it's appropriate, but Sony's arrogance certainly doesn't tend to directly fuck over consumers. Their corporate DNA is very strongly oriented towards sustaining and nurturing the console market, and even during "arrogant Sony" they were clearly trying to do this. Their arrogance was more in blithely releasing an overengineered console that priced out customers and alienated devs - it was incompetent, but it wasn't anti-consumer in the same way that Microsoft's consistent desire to do the minimum possible and cut as many corners as they can is anti-consumer.
 

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
It's like I said of myself marc^o^, I'm not tossing you under any bus I'm not willing myself to admit to. My analysis of DS success relative to PSP, for example, was incorrect, and it was incorrect very directly because my preference for PSP over DS clouded my ability to correctly judge where the market was at back then, and to hold onto that idea that the PSP would wow people eventually and win the day far longer than I otherwise would have held onto it. That was because I genuinely thought one was a better console for making games on it, but that doesn't change that my bias was clouding my ability to analyze the situation.

The precise same thing is true of the Wii U for you.
But it's fine Amir0x to be wrong, I don't care if I'm wrong, it's just my guess. I'd just want to be able to express my views without being called a fanatic.

You mention the PSP. Well while I predicted DS would find a big audience at a time everyone was saying it was dead, when PSP was turning heads, I was also wrong years later, calling PSP days numbered. It happened a game released, Monster Hunter, that totally changed its tides and it managed to sell 80 millions. I didn't see that coming. I was wrong and that's fine. This industry is unpredictable. Who could have imagined MS would present the Xbox One as they did? Everywhere, every generation, there were scenarios worth an Holliwood movie.

So no, I won't censor my views because I'm an outlier. But I'd expect more respect, as I do respect other views.
 

GamerJM

Banned
i think there's definitely a fanbase interested in traditional consoles who aren't being catered to by any console manufacturer. the potential is there to actually reach these people again, but it doesn't seem like anyone is trying, nor do they have any interest in trying (aside from nintendo, but the wii u and its games are still too expensive and unappealing). i don't subscribe to the idea of 'they aren't coming back,' but i don't see anything being done to court them again either.

My theory is that Nintendo is trying to court that audience, but just not in the short-term with the Wii U. I think they have bigger plans for the future behind the scenes (and QoL is part of that).

I also think that Sony might be trying this with Morpheus but I doubt that'll be a success on that level.

Also, AniHawk, I think your numbers are pretty spot-on, though I'd be more optimistic and guess slightly higher numbers for PS4 and maybe Xbox One.
 

Amir0x

Banned
But it's fine Amir0x to be wrong, I don't care if I'm wrong, it's just my guess. I'd just want to be able to express my views without being called a fanatic.

You mention the PSP. Well while I predicted DS would find a big audience at a time everyone was saying it was dead, when PSP was turning heads, I was also wrong years later, calling PSP days numbered. It happenee a game released, Monster Hunter, that totally changed its tides and it happened to sell 80 millions. I didn't see that coming. I was wrong and that's fine. This industry is unpredictable. Who could have imagined MS would present the Xbox One as they did? Everywhere, every generation there were scenarios worth an Holliwood movie.

So no, I won't censor my views because I'm an outlier. But I'd expect more respect, as I do respect others.

Did I tell you to censor your views? No. I'm telling you to be self-aware enough to understand why everyone else finds your views so unrealistic, because it's clearly being tainted by a very specific preference/bias. Just like my views were back in the day. You seem incapable of admitting this, even going so far as to seem to be offended at the suggestion. Even though it's beyond painfully obvious!

If you don't want to admit it that's fine, but I don't say it out of disrespect for your position. I am trying to make you cognizant of how these theories sound to someone who is far less invested in the platform because of their inherent preferences for the company behind it.

I mean we can pick any element of your theory and push it down, and so far your strongest response has been 'well let's just wait and see who is right.' I mean, can you even begin to explain how you can rationally argue that Mario Kart 8 is a phenomenon that is somehow holding onto its audience stronger than Wii Sports did, how you calculated this "fact", and how you figured that out in under 2 months of time? Genuinely, can you? And if not, does this begin to help you to see how such a viewpoint would seem to most people?
 

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
That isn't happening. Ever.

Even if the Wii U experiences growth in sales, it would still take 2-3 years for a third-party developer to take advantage of it.

By that time any opportunity will be gone (again), and rather than risk that, publishers are just going to sit the Wii U out permanently.
We know Ubisof tsits on a Wii U family oriented exclusive. EA will support its sports lines on PS3, x360 for years. I'm talking about that kind of support, which could happen as soon as in 2015.
 
i think if everyone was fine and dandy with the extremely frontloaded sales, microsoft wouldn't have felt it necessary to drop kinect so their console was as much as sony's. what i meant by 'current performance' was monthly sales, not lifetime to date sales. lifetime to date sales indicate some sort of phenomenon for two of the best-selling consoles of all-time, but monthly sales show a very different picture.

But which should we give more credence to? This is the first generation we've seen in a long, long time without supply constraints at launch. The question is: if there had been supply constraints would we be seeing higher monthly sales now? I think there's a pretty good chance we would. Certainly it's not so clear that this wouldn't have happened that it's worth dismissing the possibility entirely.
 
well pretty much, yeah. if you disagree, then please show me your ideas.

i just think that following the standard rise and fall of a platform, the wii u is seeing a peak year this year, and that it will start declining in 2015. the only way this doesn't happen is if suddenly the wii u is actually really popular for some yet unforeseen reason, like splatoon becoming the best game of all-time or amiibos being the new toys that sweep the nation.

What do you see Nintendo doing in response to a potential failure like this lifetime for its successor should there not be a surprise comeback?
 
wii = ~100m
360 = ~85m
ps3 = ~85m

anywhere between 260m and 270m for consoles is about right. keep in mind this wasn't a market for a lot of startups. traditional publishers are who made a lot of money in this gen and it's they who also suffered a lot of problems.

just trying to grasp for a good feeling on the upcoming generation is hard. japan is pretty much meaningless, and other markets are becoming accepting of video games, but will they offset what was lost? will video game consoles even be that big of a deal in five years? can we go so long without an update again? eight years was a longass time. do you think 2020 is an appropriate year to be seeing the next xbox, nintendo system, or playstation?

all that stuff works against what might be reasonable for this upcoming generation. i personally don't feel as optimistic about it just off of the contraction we're already seeing, and the dip in variety that's taken place over the last couple of years.

How will the X1 do 16 million in Europe (and 3 outside) when it's practically dead outside the UK?
 

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
Did I tell you to censor your views? No. I'm telling you to be self-aware enough to understand why everyone else finds your views so unrealistic, because it's clearly being tainted by a very specific preference/bias. Just like my views were back in the day. You seem incapable of admitting this, even going so far as to seem to be offended at the suggestion. Even though it's beyond painfully obvious!

If you don't want to admit it that's fine, but I don't say it out of disrespect for your position. I am trying to make you cognizant of how these theories sound to someone who is far less invested in the platform because of their inherent preferences for the company behind it.

I mean we can pick any element of your theory and push it down, and so far your strongest response has been 'well let's just wait and see who is right.' I mean, can you even begin to explain how you can rationally argue that Mario Kart 8 is a phenomenon that is somehow holding onto its audience stronger than Wii Sports did, how you calculated this "fact", and how you figured that out in under 2 months of time? Genuinely, can you? And if not, does this begin to help you to see how such a viewpoint would seem to most people?
Back to everybody is you, megalo Amir0x, condescending tone. About MK8, I can see its effect yes, a discussion I won't have again with you, until we have data on its long appeal effect. Until then it´s just wind, guesses. I stand by my estimations of its effects. I'll leave it at that, for now. As last time, keep this conversation at hand.
 
Did I tell you to censor your views? No. I'm telling you to be self-aware enough to understand why everyone else finds your views so unrealistic, because it's clearly being tainted by a very specific preference/bias. Just like my views were back in the day. You seem incapable of admitting this, even going so far as to seem to be offended at the suggestion. Even though it's beyond painfully obvious!

If you don't want to admit it that's fine, but I don't say it out of disrespect for your position. I am trying to make you cognizant of how these theories sound to someone who is far less invested in the platform because of their inherent preferences for the company behind it.

I mean we can pick any element of your theory and push it down, and so far your strongest response has been 'well let's just wait and see who is right.' I mean, can you even begin to explain how you can rationally argue that Mario Kart 8 is a phenomenon that is somehow holding onto its audience stronger than Wii Sports did, how you calculated this "fact", and how you figured that out in under 2 months of time? Genuinely, can you? And if not, does this begin to help you to see how such a viewpoint would seem to most people?

It's no use dude, the guy is clearly delusional and will probably be declaring an eminent comeback even as the Wii U's successor is launched.
 

Tookay

Member
We know Ubisoftsits on a Wii U family orientes exclusive. EA will support its sports lines on PS3, x360 for years. I'm talking about that kind of support, which could happen asoon as in 2015.

Most of these guys avoided capitalizing on the Wii - a clearly successful system.

They wrote it off early that generation when they bet on the HD twins and never reversed course.

From that past experience alone, I highly doubt they'll change their minds mid-generation about Wii U - even if it somewhat "recovers."
 

Amir0x

Banned
Back to everybody is you, megalo Amir0x, condescending tone. About MK8, I can see its effect yes, a discussion I won't have again with you, until we have data on its long appeal effect. Until then it´s just wind, guesses. I stand by my estimations of its effects. I'll leave it at that, for now. As last time, keep this conversation at hand.

I don't know how else to put it because the theory genuinely is outrageous. There is no gentle way to put it. That's why I am asking you to elaborate on just one of the more unsettling elements of your theory, but as you show here, you're not only unable to do it, but you're admitting it's just a wild guess.

I mean, you're stating these things authoritatively without any facts to support it, other people are producing TONS of facts with actual links to support why these theories of yours are unrealistic, and you're either ignoring them wholesale or just coming up with ever more fanciful fairytales about how Nintendo is somehow still going to save the day.

I am really sorry that I am sounding condescending to you, genuinely. I try not to be that way anymore, it's something I'm consciously tried to work on as a behavior. But I don't know any other way to put this man, because I've asked you to elaborate on how you've reached your conclusions and you keep just saying things like it's a wild guess.
 
It's no use dude, the guy is clearly delusional and will probably be declaring an eminent comeback even as the Wii U's successor is launched.
I'm not sure why there's denial and indignation about a painfully obvious judgement clouding slant now when I'm quite certain I recall statements to the effect of specifically posting positively and making threads to bring balance to the force or some such nonsense. Not to mention the bizarre dead Jobs plagiarism thread.
 
I'm not sure why there's denial and indignation about a painfully obvious judgement clouding slant now when I'm quite certain I recall statements to the effect of specifically posting positively and making threads to bring balance to the force or some such nonsense. Not to mention the bizarre dead Jobs plagiarism thread.

what?
I think I need an explanation for both of these
 

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
I don't know how else to put it because the theory genuinely is outrageous. There is no gentle way to put it. That's why I am asking you to elaborate on just one of the more unsettling elements of your theory, but as you show here, you're not only unable to do it, but you're admitting it's just a wild guess.

I mean, you're stating these things authoritatively without any facts to support it, other people are producing TONS of facts with actual links to support why these theories of yours are unrealistic, and you're either ignoring them wholesale or just coming up with ever more fanciful fairytales about how Nintendo is somehow still going to save the day.

I am really sorry that I am sounding condescending to you, genuinely. I try not to be that way anymore, it's something I'm consciously tried to work on as a behavior. But I don't know any other way to put this man, because I've asked you to elaborate on how you've reached your conclusions and you keep just saying things like it's a wild guess.
Facts like everything is set in stone? Everything is written in this industry? Is that what you believe? Leave room for doubt Amir0x. MK8's effect already surpassed your highest "comical" expectations in June. You mentionned the DS earlier. You should know better.

I'm just another voice, believing people still like may want what Nintendo can put on the table with Wii U. There's a fine line between the system can not recover, and "yes it can".
 
Facts like everything is set in stone? Everything is written in this industry? Is that what you believe? Leave room for doubt Amir0x. MK8's effect already surpassed your highest "comical" expectations in June. You mentionned the DS earlier. You should know better.

I'm just another voice, believing people still like may want what Nintendo can put on the table with Wii U. There's a fine line between the system can not recover, and "yes it can".

Nintendo has successfully pulled a console back from the brink once: the 3DS. They did that with a price cut.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Ohhhh guys.... when I said "How much sold Wii + PS3 + 360 vs Wii U + PS4 + XB1?" I meant in the same NPD Month.

To see how much consoles was sold this June compared with old gen same period June :D
 
Back to everybody is you, megalo Amir0x, condescending tone. About MK8, I can see its effect yes, a discussion I won't have again with you, until we have data on its long appeal effect. Until then it´s just wind, guesses. I stand by my estimations of its effects. I'll leave it at that, for now. As last time, keep this conversation at hand.

I guess the big issue here isn't so much that I think it's wrong to be an outlier more than if you're going to be one, you have to position yourself with facts and correlations much better. I don't honestly think it's possible to see a trend with Mario Kart after 2 months. I think it's impossible actually. I am fine if you're guessing MK will have an effect that lasts longer due to the series increased popularity thanks to the DS and Wii but 1 month of sales on the WiiU can't define a trend. You can't see a trend from that. It's too short a time period. Is a WiiU comeback possible? Anything is possible. Is it likely? I don't think so based on past data but anything can happen. But generally speaking, if you wanna go against the grain, you need some data and strong reasoning otherwise people will consider you blindly ignorant. (I just think you're way too optimistic)
 

Amir0x

Banned
Facts like everything is set in stone? Everything is written in this industry? Is that what you believe? Leave room for doubt Amir0x. MK8's effect already surpassed your highest "comical" expectations in June. You mentionned the DS earlier. You should know better.

Again as I and every other poster who actually viewed the post you keep mentioning points out, while it's true that I didn't think it would sustain that 400% increase of sales for the entire month (I thought it'd top out at like 115,000 if I was making a prediction back then), my entire point hinged on giving you the ground that that precise scenario would indeed play out that way and saying it'd top out at 135,000, only 5,000 off from where we actually got to. And the whole reason for doing that was to demonstrate that when someone says Wii U is performing X% better than it was before, the qualification to that is huge, because as we can see from this month, even doing 400% better than the Wii U was doing before is still dogshit numbers. That was literally my entire point, and that demonstration and core point is only strengthened by what occurred in June. Everyone who has read the post understands the point I was making and has said so to you in this topic, so you're not making any revelations here.

I'm just another voice, believing people still like may want what Nintendo can put on the table with Wii U. There's a fine line between the system can not recover, and "yes it can".

We're all just a bunch of people expressing opinions, and I certainly want anybody to share their viewpoints, no matter how 'outside the majority' view they are. As you should know, I am no stranger to holding unpopular viewpoints, so I am not mocking you for being outside of the curve or something. I am simply trying to demonstrate why in this case your ability to analyze the situation is clearly skewed, and is making discussion with you about the Wii U increasingly difficult, because whereas other people are at least trying to support their positions with the hard evidence we have, you have so far found no problem ignoring the evidence completely, fabricating wild theories from thin air and then stating them with authority, and then being unable to admit any ground whatsoever about the grim reality of how Wii U is performing, instead preferring to try to paint some picture of the rescuing Gandalf the White Nintendo always showing up at the last second over the ridge to miraculously save the platform from being one of the biggest failures for a major console release ever.

I mean, that's the type of failure we're talking about here. You can say it will perform better than the Jaguar, SEGA CD, 32x, the Virtual Boy and the Pippin and maybe Vita by the end. That's really the best praise you can say for Wii U's trajectory right now with how bad things are doing.

Maybe if I put it another way: Short of Nintendo coming out and saying "this system is finally profitable", how many units would the Wii U need to sell at this point for you personally to call it a "success"? Remember, this is from a business point of view, not from a 'quality-of-its-games' perspective. Maybe if I understood your personal metric for what is a success and what is not I will better understand why you think things are going to change so dramatically for Wii U.
 

Tookay

Member
Imru’ al-Qays;121809058 said:
Nintendo has successfully pulled a console back from the brink once: the 3DS. They did that with a price cut.

If you looked at the 3DS' sales post-price cut, I'm not entirely sure you can attribute the recovery to that.

It went on to do "okay" in the months that followed but it was the holidays where it finally scored big.

The release to two marquee titles back to back (MK7 and Mario 3D Land) seemed to do the real trick.
 
Wow at some of the Wii U talk. It has one month above the Gamecube in like forever and suddenly it has the potential to bring big publishers like EA and Ubisoft back into the fold, not to mention getting supported over 7 years....

Oh and Anihawk your final WW LTD predictions for the consoles seem reasonable although I probably agree with prodigy that 16M XB1 in EU seems a bit much. XB1 seems to be doing significantly worse than Wii U in both France and Germany. 360 sold maybe 8.5M units in UK and this time round they'll be lucky to get half that in the UK. I really don't see XB1 selling 11M - 12M units in the EU sans UK
 
It's weird going back a year ago to the tapering-off points of NPD threads, and then comparing them to the same specific point in contemporary NPD threads.

I'm afraid at this point perpetual disappointment (and/or bans) has scared off most of the people who maintained a semblance of normality in the ongoing narrative. Now it's basically just one or two ferociously insistent but very unconvincing diehards trumpeting the "We can't say anything until we see what happens next month!" horn into a valley of wind and ghosts.
 

ZSaberLink

Media Create Maven
Anyways, basically all predictions here assume every sells the same amount and nothing changes =P. New IPs, unless backed by millions and millions of dollars (like Destiny or Watch Dogs), will fail miserably and every title released for the Wii U is already known.

@Amirox
If the Wii U were to sell the exact same in the next 6 months as it did Jul to December of 2013, it'd sell another 907.5K units, putting it at around 3.455m in the US if I'm not mistaken. Barring some collapse beyond its "ghastly" numbers (using Y2Kev's words), this is probably a minimum as the Wii U will have Smash and MK8 supporting sales. 2015 looks to have far more titles than 2013 and could have an actual slate of releases, but let's assume it sells exactly like 2013, thus selling another 1.21m units, putting it at 4665.5K units. Basically I think 5m is kind of lowballing the US estimate because I'm pretty sure the remainder of 2014 + 2015 will at least be 300K above 2013's sales (one good holiday could easily handle that)... Although I actually remember the GC only selling like 7.Xm in the US? Is that actually right Aqua?

I'm kind of tired of the "is it or isn't the Wii U still doomed talk" from this thread as if one month of any amount of sales would really change that (unless it sold like some insane # this month). Switching gears... @Aqua/Harker/someone else - anyone know the current LTDs for 3D World, Bravely Default or some other titles we're not aware of yet? Any thoughts on the June software performance of Watch Dogs, Tomodachi Life, Mario Kart 8, etc?

If you looked at the 3DS' sales post-price cut, I'm not entirely sure you can attribute the recovery to that.

It went on to do "okay" in the months that followed but it was the holidays where it finally scored big.

The release to two marquee titles back to back (MK7 and Mario 3D Land) seemed to do the real trick.

Not really...

August 2011 - 235K
September 2011 - 260K
October 2011 - >250K

Lol, 2011's "okay" > 2014's typical NPD.
 
Anyways, basically all predictions here assume every sells the same amount and nothing changes =P. New IPs, unless backed by millions and millions of dollars (like Destiny or Watch Dogs), will fail miserably and every title released for the Wii U is already known.

@Amirox
If the Wii U were to sell the exact same in the next 6 months as it did Jul to December of 2013, it'd sell another 907.5K units, putting it at around 3.455m in the US if I'm not mistaken. Barring some collapse beyond its "ghastly" numbers (using Y2Kev's words), this is probably a minimum as the Wii U will have Smash and MK8 supporting sales. 2015 looks to have far more titles than 2013 and could have an actual slate of releases, but let's assume it sells exactly like 2013, thus selling another 1.21m units, putting it at 4665.5K units. Basically I think 5m is kind of lowballing the US estimate because I'm pretty sure the remainder of 2014 + 2015 will at least be 300K above 2013's sales (one good holiday could easily handle that)... Although I actually remember the GC only selling like 7.Xm in the US? Is that actually right Aqua?

I'm kind of tired of the "is it or isn't the Wii U still doomed talk" as if one month of any amount of sales would really change that (unless it sold like some insane # this month). @Aqua/Harker/someone else - anyone know the current LTDs for 3D World, Bravely Default or some other titles we're not aware of yet? Any thoughts on the June software performance of Watch Dogs, Tomodachi Life, Mario Kart 8, etc?



Not really...

August 2011 - 235K
September 2011 - 260K
October 2011 - >250K

Lol, 2011's okay > 2014's typical NPD.

no, Gamecube sold 11.7m in the US

(also to seal the crazy France comparisons, Gamecube did 1.07m as of the beginning of 2005, though this comparison needs to go in the PAL threads instead)
 
Ohhhh guys.... when I said "How much sold Wii + PS3 + 360 vs Wii U + PS4 + XB1?" I meant in the same NPD Month.

To see how much consoles was sold this June compared with old gen same period June :D

The equivalent period last gen would be June 2007.

June 2007:

PS2 - 271K
360 - 198K
PS3 - 98K
Wii - 382K

Total: 949K


June 2014:

Wii - 19K
Wii U - 140K
PS3 - 42K
PS4 - 269K
360 - 62K
XBO - 197K

Total: 729K
 

ethomaz

Banned
The equivalent period last gen would be June 2007.

June 2007:

PS2 - 271K
360 - 198K
PS3 - 98K
Wii - 382K

Total: 949K


June 2014:

Wii - 19K
Wii U - 140K
PS3 - 42K
PS4 - 269K
360 - 62K
XBO - 197K

Total: 729K
Thanks @Aqua.

Two things I can see looking at these numbers...

1) PS2 was a best.

2) Wii U + PS4 + XB1 > Wii + PS3 + 360

I don't think the industry is dying... the difference in sales is just because the "old" (Wii, PS3, 360) consoles can't perform like PS2... it is a old gen issue and not a current gen issue... current gen is doing fine for now.
 

Bgamer90

Banned
Thanks @Aqua.

Two things I can see looking at these numbers...

1) PS2 was a best.

2) Wii U + PS4 + XB1 > Wii + PS3 + 360

I don't think the industry is dying... the difference in sales is just because the "old" (Wii, PS3, 360) consoles can't perform like PS2.

Probably due to last gen being twice as long as the PS2/Xbox/GC gen.
 

ZSaberLink

Media Create Maven
Really? PS2 in 2007 was in the same period of time than PS3/Wii this year... 7 year old... and from what I see the PS2 age was longer then PS360Wii age.

The PS3 & Wii are almost 8 years old now. The 360 is almost 9.

And at the time people were saying that wasn't really a huge improvement, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

The lol was more about how console sales have changed since then. To think 3DS sales around 250K for 3 months straight was just ok, but now the PS4 at that level is "well". I wasn't around to read through those posts back then (and I don't really care to now).
 

ethomaz

Banned
The PS3 & Wii are almost 8 years old now. The 360 is almost 9.
PS2 in 2007 too... it have 7 years and 3 months... PS3/Wii have 7 years and 7 months... just 360 was launched early.

The 6th gen was longer (10+ year) then 7th gen (I don't think any of consoles will live 10 years).
 

ZSaberLink

Media Create Maven
And by then the 360 had been out for 18 months and the PS2 was still outselling it and the PS3

Well wasn't the PS2 $99 at that point? As opposed the 360/PS3 which still sell at ridiculous prices ($199 and $299 full price right?). The Wii, while easily $99, became irrelevant way too quickly for it to be a factor at this point.
 

ethomaz

Banned
And by then the 360 had been out for 18 months and the PS2 was still outselling it and the PS3
That my point.

The 7th is selling less in it 8 year than 6th gen sold... if PS3/360/Wii were selling compared number what PS2 sold in 2007/2008 I'm sure the industry could be selling more today than 2007.

Fact is that this gen is sold more than last gen in NPD June of respective comparable year.

I can't call the industry dying yet... at least not in US.

Well wasn't the PS2 $99 at that point? As opposed the 360/PS3 which still sell at ridiculous prices ($199 and $299 full price right?). The Wii, while easily $99, became irrelevant way too quickly for it to be a factor at this point.
This price cut happened in 2009... PS2 price in 2007 was $149.
 
Imru’ al-Qays;121806004 said:
But which should we give more credence to? This is the first generation we've seen in a long, long time without supply constraints at launch. The question is: if there had been supply constraints would we be seeing higher monthly sales now? I think there's a pretty good chance we would. Certainly it's not so clear that this wouldn't have happened that it's worth dismissing the possibility entirely.

What does this post even mean?

If there had been supply constraints we might be seeing higher monthly sales? Do you mean if sales were higher (and hitting the upper limit of supplies) then sales would be higher?

Or is this a throwback to those "Wii only sold so much because it was artificially out of stock for so long" wacko theories? Game consoles (no product comes to mind, in fact) sells a significant amount more simply because it is supply contrained.
 
It's interesting how invested most people are is in in their predictions regardless of what they are, and how condescension and mockery seems to be the main vehicle for addressing disagreements. But hey, that's often Gaf in a nutshell. At least people are more articulate with their disdain than other forums I've frequented. :p I've been routinely been treated like a fanboy Pariah by posters incredulous that I would dare to predict the Wii U would meet or exceed Gamecube LTD sales. This was especially true during its prolonged post-launch doldrums. I think it's becoming a slightly less attacked position as the system gains a little traction after a solid E3 showing, but I still get people who think I'm a dyed in the wool Nintendo fanboy just because I think they have top tier software and believe the Wii U won't be their worst selling console ever.

The funny thing is that I don't think anyone would deny the Wii U is positioned to perform the worst of the 3 current gen consoles. However, I've observed enough hardware cycles at this point to be wary of anyone who thinks they can extrapolate the trajectory of an entire generation from a system's first year or two of sales, or the current dichotomy between systems. It's the laziest, most boring, and least nuanced way to form an opinion. The idea that as things are is how they'll remain in antithetical to the nature of this fast moving industry, but it seems to be this sacred comfort zone when it comes to sales discussions. This is how people pidgeonholed systems like the DS, Wii, PSP, and PS3 at various points, and the conventional wisdom at the time turned out fairly useless in the final analysis.

Truthfully, systems have long enough lifespans to alter course, but the nature of software development means changing trajectory is like steering a ship, not turning on a dime. Miracle turnarounds are rare, and no company will change the entire direction of their system overnight, but it is possible over time as libraries build, key software releases, and prices shift. There's no silver bullet way to quantify these changes, only informed speculation. Too often the response to anything other than a literal minded projection of the current balance is indignant knee jerk reactions. It's always frustrating when ego becomes a bigger facet of these discussions than the specifics of why someone believes what they do.

That said, I think the generally accepted PS4 > Xbox One > Wii U prediction is a highly likely outcome this generation. Proportion is another can of worms, and I think in this regard people have put too much stock in short term results as a way to understand long term potential. Since my primary interest right now is in the Wii U I tend to approach it from that lens. Unlike Gamecube, which has become a sort of measuring stick for people, I think Wii U is likely to improve in sales. Gamecube had a respectable start, but declined heavily after a few years. I see the Wii U as more of a slow burn, and I think the overall potential market following last gen is much larger, which is why I don't see Gamecube+ level sales as an insane prediction in spite of the system stumbling out of the gate.

I also think that people are more comfortable with multiconsole ownership than ever before, but also willing to hold out for longer as the price of entry has risen and generations have become more drawn out. This means that while looking at past trends can be useful in some regards, extrapolating too literally becomes inadequate. It's a dynamic picture, and the industry has a history of unexpected surprises and momentum shifts, In regards to the Wii U I expect more secondary console ownership over the next 2-3 years. People may not be willing to shell out a premium price for a handful of games, but if the pricing and accumulated software becomes more enticing I think there's plenty of rooms for a higher overall baseline than what the system has enjoyed thus far.

And although I personally have doubts that 3rd parties will ever engage in meaningful support, I think there is growing evidence of Nintendo thinking laterally to address the sorts of lulls that plagued the Gamecube and Wii- in particular increased manpower, reliance on digital sales, and partnerships with outside companies. Not that it will ever probably light the charts on fire, but the constant drum beat of Nintendo is doomed is as ridiculous and short sighted as it's ever been.

Similarly, I think people have gotten a little too comfortable with the Xbox One narrative which supposes Sony will enjoy continuous momentum while MS scrambles. We're in the midst of seeing the results of overconfidence, lack of consideration for consumer needs, and bad messaging with the Xbox One. I think MS has realized that they don't exist in a vacuum, and that Sony will gladly eat their piece of the pie if they're complacent, which is forcing their hand in a good way. Just like Nintendo had to eat some crow with their initial 3DS strategy, I think MS is being forced to react to the realities of the market, and those efforts will bear fruit even if they never manage to catch up with Sony entirely. I also don't underestimate the amount of money MS is willing and able to throw at a problem, and inevitably I think they will have exclusives that will draw a larger swath of the western market.

Sony's biggest concern should be guarding against complacency. They really don't need a repeat of flying high following the PS1 and PS2's successes, which made them overly confident in the PS brand and opened the door for Microsoft to soak up disaffected gamers who balked at a $599 system which didn't initially show a distinct software advantage in spite of the hefty price tag. All in all their messaging seems pretty on point at the moment, but it can be a fine line between swag and sheer arrogance. Here's hoping they don't get too comfortable with success, because lord knows its happened before.

Ultimately I think all three companies will manage to carve out a profitable niche this generation. Like the previous generation I think we can expect a relatively long lifespan. It's getting impractical to invest in bleeding edge software every 4 years when the level of fidelity already affords developers to make extremely vivid detailed worlds, and although there will always be a thirst for more grandiose games with higher visual fidelity I think the medium is gradually reaching a point where even graphic whores can recognize the trade off between constantly shifting hardware for increasingly nitpicky gains or seeing what developers are capable of pulling from their hats as they get better at leveraging existing hardware. I also think this is why last gen sales are remaining fairly high, and publishers are only gradually shifting their full attention to the newer systems. The current gen hasn't even gotten into full swing yet,

This slowed cycle doesn't preclude the need for advancement, but I feel there's a marked shift in the necessity for longer generations, especially after several generations of loss leading hardware that eats into profits for years on end. It's also impractical for developers and publishers to continue pouring exponentially more resources into software without any guarantee of higher returns. It's not a tenable solution forever, and given the level of graphical fidelity of even the weakest systems these days it doesn't especially make sense to cater to a small group of elitist videophiles who can always build their own rigs. Thankfully the industry seems mostly over the hump with the increased burden of HD development, and things seem to be leveling out a bit, or a least costs aren't skyrocketing at such an alarming rate.
 
What does this post even mean?

If there had been supply constraints we might be seeing higher monthly sales? Do you mean if sales were higher (and hitting the upper limit of supplies) then sales would be higher?

Or is this a throwback to those "Wii only sold so much because it was artificially out of stock for so long" wacko theories? Game consoles (no product comes to mind, in fact) sells a significant amount more simply because it is supply contrained.

I believe he is saying current monthly sales would be higher had the xb1 and ps4 been supply constrained at launch and beyond, because demand would not yet have been met. Total sales would likely be lower like with ps2 and wii.
 

androvsky

Member
What does this post even mean?

If there had been supply constraints we might be seeing higher monthly sales? Do you mean if sales were higher (and hitting the upper limit of supplies) then sales would be higher?

Or is this a throwback to those "Wii only sold so much because it was artificially out of stock for so long" wacko theories? Game consoles (no product comes to mind, in fact) sells a significant amount more simply because it is supply contrained.

I think what he's saying is that in earlier gens, the factories couldn't make systems as fast. Let's say several million people in the U.S. were ready to buy a PS2 in the first month it was out. Obviously that many units weren't available, so those buyers had to wait until later in the year, making sales higher later in the year than they normally would be given the available library. But in the case of the PS4, there's so many more units available at launch, more people were satisfied at a given price point/game library early on. In the latter case, sales in later months will suffer in comparison to the same months until something changes to increase demand (awesome game getting announced/released, word of mouth hits fever pitch, or price drop).
 
What does this post even mean?

If there had been supply constraints we might be seeing higher monthly sales? Do you mean if sales were higher (and hitting the upper limit of supplies) then sales would be higher?

Or is this a throwback to those "Wii only sold so much because it was artificially out of stock for so long" wacko theories? Game consoles (no product comes to mind, in fact) sells a significant amount more simply because it is supply contrained.

Supply constraints smooth out demand for consoles over the entire year. The normal state of the market is for sales to be extremely concentrated around 1) September-December and 2) release dates, both of which almost always coincide for consoles. If you have no supply constraints your console will sell a ton in holiday season and then drop off significantly until the next holiday season (or until a massive game releases). If you have supply constraints your console will sell somewhat more evenly throughout the year because of all the people who would've bought it during the holidays but who weren't able to and so buy it a few months down the road.

We don't know if the steep decline in PS4/Xbone sales is a result of a contracting market or the result of the normal concentration of sales around console release dates. At the moment the PS4 and the Xbone are selling really, really well, it's just that an unusual proportion of those sales were in November and December 2013. It's possible that November and December were fluke months caused by "pent-up demand from an overlong console cycle" and that the home console market really is doomed, but honestly that seems silly to me. The simplest explanation is that the PS4 and the Xbone are selling well because the home console market is healthy, and that their sales have dropped off in 2014 because everyone who wanted one in 2013 was able to buy one in 2013.
 

Bgamer90

Banned
Really? PS2 in 2007 was in the same period of time than PS3/Wii this year... 7 year old... and from what I see the PS2 age was longer than PS360Wii age.

I was referring to how long the system lasted before its successor came out. PS2 = 5 years; Xbox 360 = 8 years.
 

mo60

Member
It's interesting how invested most people are is in in their predictions regardless of what they are, and how condescension and mockery seems to be the main vehicle for addressing disagreements. But hey, that's often Gaf in a nutshell. At least people are more articulate with their disdain than other forums I've frequented. :p I've been routinely been treated like a fanboy Pariah by posters incredulous that I would dare to predict the Wii U would meet or exceed Gamecube LTD sales. This was especially true during its prolonged post-launch doldrums. I think it's becoming a slightly less attacked position as the system gains a little traction after a solid E3 showing, but I still get people who think I'm a dyed in the wool Nintendo fanboy just because I think they have top tier software and believe the Wii U won't be their worst selling console ever.

The funny thing is that I don't think anyone would deny the Wii U is positioned to perform the worst of the 3 current gen consoles. However, I've observed enough hardware cycles at this point to be wary of anyone who thinks they can extrapolate the trajectory of an entire generation from a system's first year or two of sales, or the current dichotomy between systems. It's the laziest, most boring, and least nuanced way to form an opinion. The idea that as things are is how they'll remain in antithetical to the nature of this fast moving industry, but it seems to be this sacred comfort zone when it comes to sales discussions. This is how people pidgeonholed systems like the DS, Wii, PSP, and PS3 at various points, and the conventional wisdom at the time turned out fairly useless in the final analysis.

Truthfully, systems have long enough lifespans to alter course, but the nature of software development means changing trajectory is like steering a ship, not turning on a dime. Miracle turnarounds are rare, and no company will change the entire direction of their system overnight, but it is possible over time as libraries build, key software releases, and prices shift. There's no silver bullet way to quantify these changes, only informed speculation. Too often the response to anything other than a literal minded projection of the current balance is indignant knee jerk reactions. It's always frustrating when ego becomes a bigger facet of these discussions than the specifics of why someone believes what they do.

That said, I think the generally accepted PS4 > Xbox One > Wii U prediction is a highly likely outcome this generation. Proportion is another can of worms, and I think in this regard people have put too much stock in short term results as a way to understand long term potential. Since my primary interest right now is in the Wii U I tend to approach it from that lens. Unlike Gamecube, which has become a sort of measuring stick for people, I think Wii U is likely to improve in sales. Gamecube had a respectable start, but declined heavily after a few years. I see the Wii U as more of a slow burn, and I think the overall potential market following last gen is much larger, which is why I don't see Gamecube+ level sales as an insane prediction in spite of the system stumbling out of the gate.

I also think that people are more comfortable with multiconsole ownership than ever before, but also willing to hold out for longer as the price of entry has risen and generations have become more drawn out. This means that while looking at past trends can be useful in some regards, extrapolating too literally becomes inadequate. It's a dynamic picture, and the industry has a history of unexpected surprises and momentum shifts, In regards to the Wii U I expect more secondary console ownership over the next 2-3 years. People may not be willing to shell out a premium price for a handful of games, but if the pricing and accumulated software becomes more enticing I think there's plenty of rooms for a higher overall baseline than what the system has enjoyed thus far.

And although I personally have doubts that 3rd parties will ever engage in meaningful support, I think there is growing evidence of Nintendo thinking laterally to address the sorts of lulls that plagued the Gamecube and Wii- in particular increased manpower, reliance on digital sales, and partnerships with outside companies. Not that it will ever probably light the charts on fire, but the constant drum beat of Nintendo is doomed is as ridiculous and short sighted as it's ever been.

Similarly, I think people have gotten a little too comfortable with the Xbox One narrative which supposes Sony will enjoy continuous momentum while MS scrambles. We're in the midst of seeing the results of overconfidence, lack of consideration for consumer needs, and bad messaging with the Xbox One. I think MS has realized that they don't exist in a vacuum, and that Sony will gladly eat their piece of the pie if they're complacent, which is forcing their hand in a good way. Just like Nintendo had to eat some crow with their initial 3DS strategy, I think MS is being forced to react to the realities of the market, and those efforts will bear fruit even if they never manage to catch up with Sony entirely. I also don't underestimate the amount of money MS is willing and able to throw at a problem, and inevitably I think they will have exclusives that will draw a larger swath of the western market.

Sony's biggest concern should be guarding against complacency. They really don't need a repeat of flying high following the PS1 and PS2's successes, which made them overly confident in the PS brand and opened the door for Microsoft to soak up disaffected gamers who balked at a $599 system which didn't initially show a distinct software advantage in spite of the hefty price tag. All in all their messaging seems pretty on point at the moment, but it can be a fine line between swag and sheer arrogance. Here's hoping they don't get too comfortable with success, because lord knows its happened before.

Ultimately I think all three companies will manage to carve out a profitable niche this generation. Like the previous generation I think we can expect a relatively long lifespan. It's getting impractical to invest in bleeding edge software every 4 years when the level of fidelity already affords developers to make extremely vivid detailed worlds, and although there will always be a thirst for more grandiose games with higher visual fidelity I think the medium is gradually reaching a point where even graphic whores can recognize the trade off between constantly shifting hardware for increasingly nitpicky gains or seeing what developers are capable of pulling from their hats as they get better at leveraging existing hardware. I also think this is why last gen sales are remaining fairly high, and publishers are only gradually shifting their full attention to the newer systems. The current gen hasn't even gotten into full swing yet,

This slowed cycle doesn't preclude the need for advancement, but I feel there's a marked shift in the necessity for longer generations, especially after several generations of loss leading hardware that eats into profits for years on end. It's also impractical for developers and publishers to continue pouring exponentially more resources into software without any guarantee of higher returns. It's not a tenable solution forever, and given the level of graphical fidelity of even the weakest systems these days it doesn't especially make sense to cater to a small group of elitist videophiles who can always build their own rigs. Thankfully the industry seems mostly over the hump with the increased burden of HD development, and things seem to be leveling out a bit, or a least costs aren't skyrocketing at such an alarming rate.

I think the WiiU may also end up selling better than the gamecube and if it does it may take time(at least 4 to 5 years). I don't see nintendo revealing a new console until at least 2016. Their next console will launch in 2017. They will just use the WiiU to build momentum for their next console.
 
I love how at the beginning you try to sneak in a Wii U>Gamecube prediction, hoping we wouldn't notice.

and the position is just as ridiculous now as it was then
I think you need to learn the definition of sneak, as I state my opinion openly (the only way I've ever stated it) and provide reasoning for it. But thanks for latching onto one thing you don't personally agree with, ignoring all nuance, failing to counter with any meaningful opinion of your own, and playing to the exact stereotypes I mentioned in my post. You really put me in my place.
 
I think you need to learn the definition of sneak, as I state my opinion openly (the only way I've ever stated it) and provide reasoning for it. But thanks for latching onto one thing you don't personally agree with, ignoring all nuance, failing to counter with any meaningful opinion of your own, and playing to the exact stereotypes I mentioned in my post. You really put me in my place.

The first half of your post is about how Wii U is going to pull out above-Gamecube level sales in part due to multi-console ownership somehow going up despite PS+ now being a requirement for online play, and due to it somehow being a "slow burner" unlike the Gamecube (hint: FY 2014 is its biggest year), and the second part is about how if the PS4 is a massive success Sony will go back to being "arrogant" (edit: and that they somehow will do this in the middle of the generation instead of the beginning of the next one, thus allowing Xbox One to gain ground on it) despite getting burned once already for it, before ending with how this generation will be a long one like the last due to loss-leading hardware, despite Sony already making a profit off PS4 hardware and Nintendo wanting to get a fresh start at some point (unless you believe in marc^o's 7-year nonsense).

Just because you put a lot of words behind your thoughts does not make them correct.

edit: that ban for a completely different OT thread was rather coincidentally timed o_O
 

Amir0x

Banned
I love how at the beginning you try to sneak in a Wii U>Gamecube prediction, hoping we wouldn't notice.

and the position is just as ridiculous now as it was then

I mean it'd mean the Wii U would have to start sustaining minimum 150k months consistently, not counting higher than usual holiday bumps as well, to start making a plausible case that it'd even match Gamecube.

So what I want to see is a plausible argument about how such numbers are sustained given the current landscape. One, after Watch Dogs (which is already coming pathetically late) they are going to be missing virtually every hot new product from third party devs, which will be like constant advertisements for the PS4 and Xbox One. Second, they don't actually have many big games sometimes for months. Third party support is now so severely awful that the Wii U can be said to have almost nothing outside of indie games and their own first party products. Look at the upcoming release list for Wii U games for the next four months. It is seriously, LITERALLY without exaggeration able to be counted on a single hand. We're talking N64 levels here now of support, maybe even worse going into 2015.

Do you think it is plausible to suggest that on the back of some Nintendo figurines, Smash Bros. and Mario Kart - alongside all the other lesser products that will inevitably be good but not exactly market shakers like Xenoblade Chronicles X in 2015 - are going to sustain anything like near the even meager 150k average per month it'd be requiring going forward (outside of holiday months), when since the start of this gen we've seen that these types of games have in fact been unable to do anything for Nintendo and the appeal of Wii U?

Being distant third place with a laughable 140k in a month was the best that arguably one of the biggest games Wii U was ever going to get gave the system. I'd say Smash Bros. has the possibility to be bigger, so let's just say it'll have at least three more aberrant months where it sells perhaps a bit higher than the curve (and considering here I'm being generous, the Wii U didn't even hit 150k this month), and then it has to settle "back" to some number that will show us where the actual current appeal of the Wii U remains at with the mass market.

Given the evidence so far, do you think these few games are going to do enough work to change perceptions so much with the mass market that it is going to be able to sustain the vast expanses of nothingness between these big products now, that are also thematically limited due to being from a more limited span of developers? Do you think the effort with indies, while admirable, is going to be enough to convince people they shouldn't still just buy a PS4 instead, because Sony has also done a stellar job with indies, and they also get all the other benefits too? Like a system with actual third party support?

All this is to say a simple thing: Wii U does not exist in a vacuum. Tomorrow, it will continue not to exist in a vacuum. This is all obvious. My argument therefore is that if you are a person that genuinely believes Wii U can out perform the Gamecube (as if this is some amazing accomplishment, but that's how low we're aiming here, which shows just the sort of ground even Nintendo fanboys are forced to concede here), what is your precise strategy that leads to these sorts of sales being sustained month-to-month, given the clearly devastating future impact of having virtually no third party games whatsoever? Do you really think Toad's Adventure game or whatever the fuck and Yoshi's Wooly Whatever is going to be able to carry the baton with respectful numbers after Nintendo's remaining big guns in titles like Smash Bros.? What is the actual gameplan to landing on this plausible perspective that Wii U is going to be able to turn things around to this degree. Explain it to me. That's what I request.
 
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