NY Daily News: "At last, women lash out at hip hop's abuses"
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Ninja Scooter
Member
who cares? Unless rappers are raping women on camera, these girls are there willingly. Most of the chicks in videos and shit are probably strippers/dancers anyway. Nobody is being exploited. And any guys who go out and assault or treat a woman disrespectfully just because of what Jayz or Tupac said on a record are idiots with mental issues, and anything, from TVs to a Movie probably would have set them off anyway.
Well if it's all about "life" imitating "art", how come EVERY black rapper (I'm not including white people, because as we all know, they're soft and from the suburbs no matter what) isn't rapping about killin' niggaz & fuckin' bitches?
I'm certainly not going to sit here and tell people what they can or can't listen to, though.
I'm certainly not going to sit here and tell people what they can or can't listen to, though.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Can I kill a particular myth right here, right now. I know a lot of strippers and in general
1. Strippers don't make a lot of money.
2. Don't go to college.
There is a subset of any industry that gets incredibly wealthy for that industry. But by and large the average stripper is probably pulling in about 20k a year. Depending on the city it could be more or less but, these ladies aren't breaking the bank here. After they pay out to the bartenders, waitresses, the DJ and the club (and club owners can be ghoulish when it comes to their fees) they don't take home much. If they have good money management skills then the job can be highly profitable (same can be said for any job really) but, many don't and they get stuck with overwhelming debt just like most young people and nothing to show for their "hard" work.
1. Strippers don't make a lot of money.
2. Don't go to college.
There is a subset of any industry that gets incredibly wealthy for that industry. But by and large the average stripper is probably pulling in about 20k a year. Depending on the city it could be more or less but, these ladies aren't breaking the bank here. After they pay out to the bartenders, waitresses, the DJ and the club (and club owners can be ghoulish when it comes to their fees) they don't take home much. If they have good money management skills then the job can be highly profitable (same can be said for any job really) but, many don't and they get stuck with overwhelming debt just like most young people and nothing to show for their "hard" work.
Lil' Dice said:
Now you're just being silly. Masta P? No Limit? Suave House? The white man wasn't tellin' them shit. Maybe you're referring to Rawkus.
And also, if it's the morally questionable music that sells... how in the world is any white man going to say "no, that's not what we're going to release"* when he's all about getting paid?
*and then Ice-T had to go fuck my theory up with "Cop Killer" - and that was fucking DEVIL MUSIC
IMO, my bottomline on Hip Hop is:
There used to be two types of commercial(radio/mtv) rap.
1. Fun Rap that was just made for partying and having fun. Nothing really derogatory. You know Kid N' Play(Ain't Gonna Hurt Nobody), RUN DMC(rapper's delight), Kriss Kross(Jump), etc.
2. Serious Rap that was for delivering a message. Grand Master Flash(The Message), TuPac(Brenda's Got A Baby), Public Enemy(911 is a Joke, By the time I get to Arizona), etc.
Sometime between then and now, rap took a HUGE turn and went off some where else. The message is still there, but it's totally different from what it used to be. What I hear and see in videos these days is mostly all about materialisim and it sounds like "If you don't own such-and-such, you are a nobody."
There used to be two types of commercial(radio/mtv) rap.
1. Fun Rap that was just made for partying and having fun. Nothing really derogatory. You know Kid N' Play(Ain't Gonna Hurt Nobody), RUN DMC(rapper's delight), Kriss Kross(Jump), etc.
2. Serious Rap that was for delivering a message. Grand Master Flash(The Message), TuPac(Brenda's Got A Baby), Public Enemy(911 is a Joke, By the time I get to Arizona), etc.
Sometime between then and now, rap took a HUGE turn and went off some where else. The message is still there, but it's totally different from what it used to be. What I hear and see in videos these days is mostly all about materialisim and it sounds like "If you don't own such-and-such, you are a nobody."
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
DarienA said:
Yeah that too. I mean many of them fall prey to darker sides of fast life. Regardless what you may think about a stripper many of them are young and impressionable and are around men who have "oddles" of cash. Most of the ones I know basically have bad money management skills. I don't "know" of any with what I would call serious drug problems but, I only see hung with them every now and again. I hate to do it (it's like setting a pack of wild dogs on a three legged pig) but stipperweb is a great resource if you want to get an inside view of the industry.
Trakball said:
If we have to play the "blame the evil white man" game then yes they are. They many not be telling them "exactly" what to do in a boardroom setting. However, who do you think was eating up all of Master P's records in the late 90's. This is fact you WILL NOT have a million+ sellling album with just black people alone. It is common knowledge that Whites by far buy more rap albums than Blacks. And any good business man is going to continue to sell what sold well last time. This is econ 101.
Vieo said:
Yeah it turned to profit. What you also have to realize is that these groups are in the grand scheme of things completely throwaway. That's what rap was in the 80's and early 90's throwaway. It was easy profit for the studios. In the early 90's after Hammer and Vanilla Ice crashed the corporate rap machine and Luke's constant run in with the law corporate America left rap out to dry (notice that you can't think of many rappers from the early to mid 90's timeframe that are still making music today Naughty by Nature, Domino, Geronimo, Mac Mal anyone?)
Independent groups started making their rise (Bad Boy, Rock-a-Fella, Suave House, Death Row, No Limit, E-40, Too $hort, BME, Hypnotize Minds, So-So Def) reason being was the coporations took all their money out of rap. Too big of a risk. Independents were able to scratch up a little bit of money and make major profit becuse they published regionally instead of nationally. So around the late 90's corporate America came knocking again and they made a deal. Corporations pay for promotion (video play) and the record companies keep churning out cheap and easily reproduceable products. Those "message" rappers were too dependent on the old style corporate handouts and were too smart/honorable to realize that sometime you have to shake hands with the devil).
The Black Gelding
Banned
Vieo said:
Well now, there is three basic types since the deaths of Biggie and Tupac:
1.Club/Hype/Party music. Each zone has its type. Eastcoast has the bangers, The "Durty" South has its krunk, midwest has... well, damn near every song from the midwest is party music, and the West Coast has "RnG". Most of what you see on MTV/Hear on the radio these days is a variation of the aforementioned. Most of the lite-violence "beating heads in thu cluuuub" and womanizing "all these bitches CRAWWWL" can be found here. Also where the bulk of the production talent is to be found.
2. Hardcore "gangsta" tracks. A lot of current beefs fall into this category. Most of the raps in this one are the non-singles/non-party/non-ballad tracks done by the MTV set. Some seriously ill/funny shit IMO. Look no further than your local DJ or, if you're a big dog in the industry, the Drama King DJ Kay Slay, or DJ Premire to produce these tracks for you.
3. "Backpacker," conscience music. A lot of "trip-hop" and experemental tracks/groups can be found in this category, and it's home to what was Rawkus Records, hell yeah. (kind of ironic that these guys were, in the end, screwed over by their corporate masters) I think it's safe to group the UK guys, Dizz, The Streets, etc. into here, as they get a lot of buzz in these circles. The production is very VERY hit and miss. Even so, the music is much more lyrically based than any of the aforementioned. The most ignored of the three since militant groups such as "Public Enemy" have dissolved.
Also, rap music is the least of the ghettos' problems. But it sure doesn't help as much as it can/should.
Fresh Prince
Banned
It will die off soon it's reached it's peak- it has to be seen as stale now.
Personally I don't have a problem with it . The only thing is that TV stations should be restricted from showing that shit early in the mornings for the children etc. Teenagers should be able to differentiate fact with fiction as well.
Personally I don't have a problem with it . The only thing is that TV stations should be restricted from showing that shit early in the mornings for the children etc. Teenagers should be able to differentiate fact with fiction as well.
Ninja Scooter
Member
The Black Stallion said:
:lol
DaCocoBrova
Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
By far the most ingnorrant sh!t I've read all year long.
What about pimpin' hoes? Hoein'? Murder for hire? Money laundering? Bootlegs?
There are plenty of occupations to be had in the ghetto. Selling drugs is soooooo 80s/90s.
Big business... White mainstream America bobs their heads now... Changes things.
DaCocoBrova
Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
Actually, rappers have much better acting careers than musicians in any other genre:
Marky Mark
L.L. Cool J
Mos Def
Cam'ron - Excellent in 'Paid in Full'
Ice T
I could go on and on...
Name any other genre of music that churns out the thespians like good ol' hip hop! I dare you!
Marky Mark
L.L. Cool J
Mos Def
Cam'ron - Excellent in 'Paid in Full'
Ice T
I could go on and on...
Name any other genre of music that churns out the thespians like good ol' hip hop! I dare you!
so now that rap has reached this popularity height to the point that rec execs know how to make a quick buck off a rapper...its raps fault?
even eminem of all artists has to cave in to his rec company and make songs like just lose it and real slim shady or else his album doesnt get released.
jay z might glorify the lifestyle but dont dismiss him as some petty rapper who doesnt do his part to also help the people, rap about the struggle, and give people a positive message.
yeah a lot of these rappers cant be considered hyporcrites but not all these rappers can afford to be all meaningfull while still sell something. if jay z came out with a all positive message full album u think it sells? or sells as much? if he doesnt have a club banger u think he sells? same applies for all these artists, from nelly to lil john. yeah some of these guys are retards brought up by the music industry but they know what sells and and they will continue to do this till rec companies learn to take a hit and give some deserving rapper some marketing and promote him rather than going for a quick buck.
kayne west is a perfect example of what i think a rapper should in how he came up.
even eminem of all artists has to cave in to his rec company and make songs like just lose it and real slim shady or else his album doesnt get released.
jay z might glorify the lifestyle but dont dismiss him as some petty rapper who doesnt do his part to also help the people, rap about the struggle, and give people a positive message.
yeah a lot of these rappers cant be considered hyporcrites but not all these rappers can afford to be all meaningfull while still sell something. if jay z came out with a all positive message full album u think it sells? or sells as much? if he doesnt have a club banger u think he sells? same applies for all these artists, from nelly to lil john. yeah some of these guys are retards brought up by the music industry but they know what sells and and they will continue to do this till rec companies learn to take a hit and give some deserving rapper some marketing and promote him rather than going for a quick buck.
kayne west is a perfect example of what i think a rapper should in how he came up.
DaCocoBrova
Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
Woah. I was with you up until that point.
Can you use a better example? If you said 'producer', I'd have no problem. But he is not a rapper. He just plays one on TV.
well i dont think he is a great rapper. he bit mase and fab a bit.
he is a great producer but at least he understood and tried to make a single and splash without taking the easy road. like thru the wire, all falls down, and jesus walks...not something that would usually make a huge splash or u wuldnt think it would.
more than anything i hope it shows rec execs that yes while club bangers can get u instant status regardless of ur talent, u can also fund rappers who can have average talent, talk about something other than guns and hoes.
but i guess in the end it all depends on what sells most.
he is a great producer but at least he understood and tried to make a single and splash without taking the easy road. like thru the wire, all falls down, and jesus walks...not something that would usually make a huge splash or u wuldnt think it would.
more than anything i hope it shows rec execs that yes while club bangers can get u instant status regardless of ur talent, u can also fund rappers who can have average talent, talk about something other than guns and hoes.
but i guess in the end it all depends on what sells most.
DaCocoBrova
Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
'We want *whips and chains, not whips and chains'
*Whips = Cars
Anyway, Ali Vegas is the future.
Really? So the stuff that sells well, somehow sounds better and is devoid of demeaning topics and the subjugation of women? Hmmm
*Whips = Cars
Anyway, Ali Vegas is the future.
Really? So the stuff that sells well, somehow sounds better and is devoid of demeaning topics and the subjugation of women? Hmmm
huh? i meant sex sells the most
so does gangsta images and lifestyle
not real talent.
rappers know this, rec execs know this, some bite the bullet and take the easy way out.
and even then most of these rappers really arent making it big, only a few actually are making money.
others keep searching for that one big hit to be certified.
so does gangsta images and lifestyle
not real talent.
rappers know this, rec execs know this, some bite the bullet and take the easy way out.
and even then most of these rappers really arent making it big, only a few actually are making money.
others keep searching for that one big hit to be certified.
Fresh Prince
Banned
In other news today Ras Kass is out of jail and speculation is that he is to sign with Aftermath.
The Game sadly seems to be the rapper of 2005.
The Game sadly seems to be the rapper of 2005.
DaCocoBrova
Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
^^
Name any of the aforementioned that has gone platinum in '04... Those that did, didn't do it on the strength of their 'Gangsta' persona. More than likely it was radio-friendly songs that got them there.
And what is a 'gangsta image and lifestyle'? 'Gangsta' is something the media tacked on to hard-edge hip hop.
Al Capone was a 'gangsta'. I don't see rappers hording empty vaults and sh!t. :lol
Name any of the aforementioned that has gone platinum in '04... Those that did, didn't do it on the strength of their 'Gangsta' persona. More than likely it was radio-friendly songs that got them there.
And what is a 'gangsta image and lifestyle'? 'Gangsta' is something the media tacked on to hard-edge hip hop.
Al Capone was a 'gangsta'. I don't see rappers hording empty vaults and sh!t. :lol
Ninja Scooter
Member
DaCocoBrova said:
Sebastian Bach
Henry Rollins
Stevie Van Zandt
Evan Seinfeld was in OZ and does porno
and, of course, Pearl Jam's oscar worthy role in "Singles".
DaCocoBrova
Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
Scarface was/is a parable.
DaCocoBrova said:
yeah im not saying rappers do this but it seems to forge a image u go one of two ways....either ur a gangsta or not.
i dont mean the image alone sells but it sure did help guys like 50. i know what actually sold 50 was eminem and the dre beat for in the da club.
and what are the radio friendly songs? the one being complained about? the one devoid of any real lyrics, and the ones that contain club friendly beats with cookie cutter lyrics. thats what i meant by taking the easy road.
Tre said:
Im gonna have to agree. That statment sums it up. It's EVERYWHERE and some rinky dink magazine that may be popular to some isn't going to change SHIT! Women lookin like sluts sells beer and rap. And that makes the world go round.
Zoolander once said: "Moisture is the essence of wetness, and wetness is the essence of beauty."
Bitch you wet!
I find it funny how they totally ignored the positive artists. Shit, if Jay-Z, Nelly and Lil' Jon offend you then don't listen to them. Talib Kweli, Common, Mos Def and many others create that up-lifting music that doesn't objectify women. So what, those artists don't count because MTV and mainstream radio barely ever plays them? Bullshit. The main purpose of the music is to entertain, so if people want to dumb out and just listen to meaningless club music, who cares?
I don't see how the artists are to be held accountable for the state of the black community. They live in a free country and it's they're right to make this music, regardless of how demeaning it may be. The women who participate in the lifestyle these artists portray do so willingly. If blame is to be laid, then it needs to be focused on the parents. Why should we rely on artists to set an example? From an early age black woman need to be taught about dignity and self respect, which unfortuantely does not happen nearly as much as it needs to. The real problem in the broader african american community is family structure and parental responsibility, not these rap artists.
I don't see how the artists are to be held accountable for the state of the black community. They live in a free country and it's they're right to make this music, regardless of how demeaning it may be. The women who participate in the lifestyle these artists portray do so willingly. If blame is to be laid, then it needs to be focused on the parents. Why should we rely on artists to set an example? From an early age black woman need to be taught about dignity and self respect, which unfortuantely does not happen nearly as much as it needs to. The real problem in the broader african american community is family structure and parental responsibility, not these rap artists.
Like most everyone else said in some form or another: 1) I agree with the ideas in the article in principle, and 2) mainstream rap, although a noticable part of the problem, is being used as something of a scapegoat, largely because of the ethnic focus and not the bigger problem at hand. Other popular music genres, notably pop music and rock, widely embody the same negative image the article is suggesting, basically hypersexualized images of women at increasingly younger ages doing all sorts of unintelligible things. But then you have to realize two things: this is, and has been, the problem of the mainstream media for decades now, and, as someone else noted, sex sells. I think it's a fairly noble of Essence to try to make a stand, but I also think it's going to largely fall on deaf ears and probably wind up being a relatively paltry effort.
For me, mainstream music, on the whole, sucks these days regardless of the ethical issues that underlie the music. Maybe I'm nostalgic or senile, but, now more than ever, the best music is the music you have to dig for. Although if I recall correctly, I believe MTV2 made a mistake and accidentally played Blackalicious' Feel That Way music video once; but then it was around 2am, when they actually play music videos, so maybe it was intentional.
For me, mainstream music, on the whole, sucks these days regardless of the ethical issues that underlie the music. Maybe I'm nostalgic or senile, but, now more than ever, the best music is the music you have to dig for. Although if I recall correctly, I believe MTV2 made a mistake and accidentally played Blackalicious' Feel That Way music video once; but then it was around 2am, when they actually play music videos, so maybe it was intentional.
Umm...I have to object to the "rock is just as bad" idea. Were the VIDEOS just as bad? Well, maybe in the cheesy "hair metal" days, but as a general statement, I would say no. Were the LYRICS anywhere near as bad? Hell no.
As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it's a feedback loop at this point. Hip-hop isn't going to change until the audience demands something else...but it's hard to see the audience all of a sudden wanting something else when urban culture is increasingly commodified and ingrained.
As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it's a feedback loop at this point. Hip-hop isn't going to change until the audience demands something else...but it's hard to see the audience all of a sudden wanting something else when urban culture is increasingly commodified and ingrained.
-jinx- said:
It's a matter of degree really, but modern day mainstream rap is undeniably far more explicit than most mainstream rock. Still, I think if you're going to tackle the issue, you may as well tackle the general trend of it, rather than aiming at one specific ethnic subset, even if it may be the most glaring part of the problem to most observers. You're absolutely right though.
And, for the record, I always preferred Carlito's Way to Scarface.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
etiolate said:
Yes indeed, Let's see Sheryl Crow was part of Lilth Fair correct? Her label is A&M Records correct? Well A&M happens to be a subsidary of Interscope home of 50cent, Dr. Dre, GUnit, the Lox, and Young Buck. so yes you are SO correct in saying that events like Lilth Fair have moved the industry.
The only time the business end of the industry is going to care one way or another is when customers stop buying.
-jinx- said:
I'm going to have to disagree. Hair Metal was the worst music I ever had the displeasue of listen to. The shit was total crap. It's all about perception, you don't like rap as a result all the lyrics are bad. I wouldn't touch hard rock or metal rock with a ten foot pole. The music was bad the the style was bad. I can't think of one redeeming factor of that crap. But, again that's my perception. We move perception out of the way and we have the same setting. The same people are in charge they are just moving units to a different beat.
Boogie9IGN
Member
Hahaha, as soon as I clicked on this thread, Federation - Hos In Here came up on my playlist
Everytime I hear/see a debate over rap = trash, due to lyrics or lack of musical talent, abuse of women, image as a selling point, there is always "Yeah but there's the good stuff". I agree with this, there is some good stuff. The problem is when people ask "whats the good stuff?" then you get stuttering short replies. And this is pretty much an everytime thing. So if the rap audience knows there's good stuff, even if they struggle to come up with examples, why does it not sell as much as it is known? Are they not buying it? I've gone to underground hip hop concerts, private local stuff and its... the same shit without the 'bling' most the time. Catchphrases, curses and beats. How rare is the good stuff and does it legitamize current rap music? I just get this vibe the rap community doesn't want to take responsibility for itself.
My brother has his walls lined with Eminem, Tupac and Scarface posters. He tries to trick out his car even though it leads to the hunk breaking down within a month. He likes to go by "Pimp TJ" and since his last name is Ball, he often changes it to Baller. I don't know how much more stereotypical than him that you can get. The sad part is, I run into people more like him than say a music fan who likes rap. Even in highschool, there were black kids whose family was successful enough to move into the sort of neighborhood this school is in. I would say middle to upper-middle class. New subarban homes, new Chevy Subarbans to drive in, computers in every classroom, etc. I always figured the parents had worked hard for this, perhaps moving out of a worse area to be here. Maybe there was a series of success in their history though, so it wasn't a big move up. I didn't know, but it wasn't a bad situation they were in. The kids though would take this rather nice and beneficial living condition and gansta it up. It was like pastel graffiti. It was all about the image and they brought it to school every day. Kids would drive their brand new Camaros to class. perhaps take a stop at starbucks and then thug out to songs about struggling in the hood.
My brother has his walls lined with Eminem, Tupac and Scarface posters. He tries to trick out his car even though it leads to the hunk breaking down within a month. He likes to go by "Pimp TJ" and since his last name is Ball, he often changes it to Baller. I don't know how much more stereotypical than him that you can get. The sad part is, I run into people more like him than say a music fan who likes rap. Even in highschool, there were black kids whose family was successful enough to move into the sort of neighborhood this school is in. I would say middle to upper-middle class. New subarban homes, new Chevy Subarbans to drive in, computers in every classroom, etc. I always figured the parents had worked hard for this, perhaps moving out of a worse area to be here. Maybe there was a series of success in their history though, so it wasn't a big move up. I didn't know, but it wasn't a bad situation they were in. The kids though would take this rather nice and beneficial living condition and gansta it up. It was like pastel graffiti. It was all about the image and they brought it to school every day. Kids would drive their brand new Camaros to class. perhaps take a stop at starbucks and then thug out to songs about struggling in the hood.
Hold on a second -- I didn't say anything about the quality of the beats or lyrics in general. "Bad" is referring to the original topic, which has to do with misogynistic content of hip-hop videos and lyrics. On that count, the current hip-hop which is popular with a mass market is FAR worse than even the most hedonistic rock that I remember, which was the "hair metal" phase popular in the late 80s.Tommie Hu$tle said:
This also isn't about perception...that is, if you were trying to take a guess about what music I listen to and/or prefer and claim that it's introducing some kind of spin. I have plenty of hip-hop albums on my shelf, thank you, and I think hair metal is among the worst atrocities ever unleashed on the radio. It's true that I think some "rappers" ought to be prosecuted for crimes against the English language (how about about a punch in the "mouf," Ludacris?) and/or blatant stupidity, but that isn't the topic here.
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