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[Dilbert]

It's a matter of degree really, but modern day mainstream rap is undeniably far more explicit than most mainstream rock. Still, I think if you're going to tackle the issue, you may as well tackle the general trend of it, rather than aiming at one specific ethnic subset, even if it may be the most glaring part of the problem to most observers. You're absolutely right though.

I agree that this isn't an "ethnic" problem -- it's a cultural problem, period. We have to learn how to deal with sexuality in a mature way in this culture, because it seems that practically NO mainstream images are realistic or balanced in the slightest.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Everytime I hear/see a debate over rap = trash, due to lyrics or lack of musical talent, abuse of women, image as a selling point, there is always "Yeah but there's the good stuff". I agree with this, there is some good stuff. The problem is when people ask "whats the good stuff?" then you get stuttering short replies. And this is pretty much an everytime thing. So if the rap audience knows there's good stuff, even if they struggle to come up with examples, why does it not sell as much as it is known? Are they not buying it? I've gone to underground hip hop concerts, private local stuff and its... the same shit without the 'bling' most the time.

Good stuff- define what this 'is' please.
Hip-Hop can be varied as rock there is so much 'labeling'\genres. Everyone has their particular likes etc. The problem here is when somebody pulls up their favourite artist, people (myself included ) trash it since it is not what we particulalry(sp?) genre like.
Personally I used to hate 'bling'\thug rap but it has it purposes it gets shit going at a party, easy to listen to, has some nice girls in the clips. BUT FFS do not equate Top 40 Rap= Hip Hop. Also you have neglected to read other poster's thoughts on why 'concious' Hip-Hop does get played ie companies - people buy it so they sell more of what they want.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Hold on a second -- I didn't say anything about the quality of the beats or lyrics in general. "Bad" is referring to the original topic, which has to do with misogynistic content of hip-hop videos and lyrics. On that count, the current hip-hop which is popular with a mass market is FAR worse than even the most hedonistic rock that I remember, which was the "hair metal" phase popular in the late 80s.

Point taken, however you well know that there is much more exposure to media in general today. In the 80's MTV (for example) was a medium to get your artist more exposure/record sales. Today MTV is more about marketing a lifestyle and music happens to be part of that lifestyle. You could also make the arguement that the mainstream rap of today meets the needs it's target audience by creating the illusion of the modern day Jack Johnson archtype.

 

[effzee]

stuttering responses?

jay z
nas
talib
fab
eminem
scarface
outkast
ludacris
TI
mos def
ghostface
lloyd banks
doom
common
korrupt
wu tang
redman
tupac
biggie
big l
ll cool j
public enemy



and these are some of them.....shit it also depends on how u measure good rap? if cussing turns u off then i suggest dont listen to rap at all. i define good rap is as clever word play, good rhymes, good beat, flow, and just the overall product. not every single song or every single artist has to change my life or be profound

 

[etiolate]

I know no to equate Top 40 = Hip Hop, but even top 40 rock has some reprasenative of good, real rock. Why doesn't rap? Or what is it for Rap? Jay-Z does not rub me the right way. And I don't think its just the megacompanies pushing it. No Limit was a small company and its perhaps the worst offender of image over quality.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Please define what is 'good' first. Good as in conveying positive messages, good as in wordplay, storytelling, good for party music etc.

There are few examples (as you said) in the Top 40 I can think of straight off the top of my head:
Bridging the Gap- Nas feat Olaru is in the Top 10 in the UK.
Where is the Love- BEP was a hit (vommit inducingly sweet but still had a positive message)
Sunshine- Twista
Jesus Walks- Kanye West
Mosh- Eminem

 

[XS+]

The malaise of poverty that blankets the black community needs a message that is empowering and uplifting, music that edifies rather than mortifies, inspiring young black men and women to strive for something greather than immediate gratification. Sadly, our community is dancing to the beat of hate, lyrics that glorify criminality, savage the black female, and encourage the abandonment of responsibility. Slaves to the selfish cravings of materialism narcissism, these entertainers hawk self-defeat to a battered people, praising the dollar at the expense of the mind, body, and soul. No man of honorable character can abide this amoral pollution, this ghetto pornography they corrupt our people with.

BTW, I'm tired of people invoking that tired argument of an analogy existing between negative imagery in rock and the graphic adoration of criminality in rap music. The difference could not be more cavernous. Innocuous nihilism that manifests in various forms of rock is tame compared to the unrelenting darkness that so many rap "artists" bask in. There is no forgiveness to be yielded to those who shamelessly encourage young black men to sell crack and dispense of all decency, nor have I any respect for "artists" who denigrate black women. I'll take a Green Day or Metallica over Jay-Z anyday. I'll never support that minstrel act.

 

[DarienA]

The malaise of poverty that blankets the black community needs a message that is empowering and uplifting, music that edifies rather than mortifies, inspiring young black men and women to strive for something greather than immediate gratification. Sadly, our community is dancing to the beat of hate, lyrics that glorify criminality, savage the black female, and encourage the abandonment of responsibility. Slaves to the selfish cravings of materialism narcissism, these entertainers hawk self-defeat to a battered people, praising the dollar at the expense of the mind, body, and soul. No man of honorable character can abide this amoral pollution, this ghetto pornography they corrupt our people with.

BTW, I'm tired of people invoking that tired argument of an analogy existing between negative imagery in rock and the graphic adoration of criminality in rap music. The difference could not be more cavernous. Innocuous nihilism that manifests in various forms of rock is tame compared to the unrelenting darkness that so many rap "artists" bask in. There is no forgiveness to be yielded to those who shamelessly encourage young black men to sell crack and dispense of all decency, nor have I any respect for "artists" who denigrate black women. I'll take a Green Day or Metallica over Jay-Z anyday. I'll never support that minstrel act.

 

[Pimpwerx]

The "good rap" is whatever the hell you like. It's music people, get the fuck over it. Do we pine over violent movies? No, we understand the difference between fact and fiction. Do I pine over hip-hop lyrics? Hell no, I got a brain. I can make my own damn decisions. As much as some guys rap about it, you can't approach many women in the hood the way they claim. There are chickenhead sluts, but you got those everywhere.

The hip-hop image isn't damaging either. Most of the people buying all the bling and the thug gear are white kids anyway. WTF! I rock South Pole jeans, but that's about it, and only after years of Silvertab. I wear Vans and Airwalks and I snowboard and say the word "dude". :lol I am a hip-hop head, and I bang some of the thuggest shit in my car. It's just the kind of music I like. Hard lyrics are part of it. I don't always need Talib to tell me what's wrong with the world, or Pharcyde's stoner grooves. I can dig on some Wayne or Jay-Z or Diplomats and even 50's bum ass. If it sounds good, get your groove on. Now if you're running around holding heat, selling crack on the block (HA!) or jacking fools b/c of some lyrics, then you're a fucknig idiot and not fit to be in society anyway. Clean the gene pool. Don't try to deflect the blame from the individuals who fuck it up. For all the young black men in the struggle, there are many more of us staying well above the fray. This forum's black members can pretty much all atest to that.

I'll say this. Some rap songs made me consider selling crack as a possible source of cash. I mean, it really does give some good returns on your investment, but I've lived next door to a crack dealer, and it's no fucking paradise. Anytime you're selling drugs, you're skating on thin ice anyway. But if I was to go through with it, the song lyrics only gave me an idea, it didn't make me follow through in my actions. There are lots of stupid things said on the internet, and I don't see people trying to censor that. PEACE.

 

[etiolate]

Please define what is 'good' first. Good as in conveying positive messages, good as in wordplay, storytelling, good for party music etc.

Good is a hard thing to define. There is also the seperation of good rap and a good message. Carman has rapped, doesn't mean its good just because of the message. I guess you must have a sense of taste, which is hard to define, but some people have it and some people don't. Plus, I think someone who has listened to a lot of music generally can say what is good, as it's what stands out from the rest of the noise. If you want to go with the previously mentioned 80s hair metal comparison, what is going to be like Megadeth and Iron Maiden down the road for rap? Something that still stands up, artists that can still make hits in a different climate. When I say that, I mean rap RIGHT NOW, not going back to Tupac or Public Enemy, as those have already shown they have staying power.

Then there's the positive message aspect. Lauryn Hill first comes to my mind, but I am thinking of another group that I can't think of the name now. They had a single recently, the video involved an escalator to heaven. Didn't Cypress Hill have an escalator to heaven in a video too? Bah, can't remember.

Do I pine over hip-hop lyrics? Hell no, I got a brain.

what

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Nas, on his best day, when it comes to storytelling, I'd put him up against anybody, in any genre

 

[Trakball]

Nas, on his best day, when it comes to storytelling, I'd put him up against anybody, in any genre

Slick Rick.

 

[Loki]

Why is everybody attacking Futami (XS+)? It's not often that I'll say this, but he's absolutely on target with his analysis of the issue. Anybody who doesn't see the wisdom in much of what he's saying (not the censorship stuff, but the general point about the pernicious effect of rap music in the community) is deluding themselves, quite frankly. Anyone who thinks that social critics speak out against rap music for racist reasons, rather than because it's the most egregious offender of civilized norms among the musical genres, is likewise deluded, and is being unnecessarily quarrelsome.


I, for one, am not racist, and I have on many occasions spoken out against metal/rock and pop music for the memes they were conveying. To imply that anybody who takes exception to the stream of filth that issues forth from purveyors of "mainstream rap" is some sort of closet racist is just very, very silly.


Like -jinx- said, at this point it's all a self-reinforcing cycle, and I really don't think there are any easy answers. The environment (of which culture is an integral component, not just some minor, uninfluential part) has helped shape the ideals and behavior of the populace; this, in turn, influences both the type of cultural products (of which music is one) that people will be inclined to create as well as what will be viable in the marketplace due to the altered tastes of the consumer base. It also affects behavior-- perhaps not to the same extent as, say, coming from an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional household, but it is undeniably an influence. I honestly cannot believe the ignorance on display in this thread, with people insisting that the environment (yes, that includes music and TV) has but a negligible effect on people's behaviors and attitudes. Go read some of the psychological literature, for your own sakes.


Sure, there are exceptions-- kids who grow up listening to rap music and suffer no ill effects later on in life; this is because the music (or TV or whatever) is not the sole determinant of future behavior, but rather conspires with and is mitigated by other deletrious and/or beneficial influences in one's life to shape one's attitudes and behaviors. To point to someone you know and say, "hey, he listened to nothing but gangsta rap and is an upstanding citizen!" betrays a deep ignorance of both psychology, the human condition, and the nature of social interactions and the statistical correlations that can be brought to bear in describing them. It's really just absurd to sit there and defend utter shit by arguing that "people understand the difference between fact and fiction". Yes, on a conscious level, most adults do; the problem with rap (besides the fact that children listen to it as well) is that in addition to the message conveyed by the lyrics, people living in inner city neighborhoods may see certain features described by the rap music in their own neighborhoods (drug use, gang violence etc.), and so its message is reinforced. It thus has more force as a message than that same song being heard by an upper-class kid living with two parents in a gated community, because the upper-class kid has no reference point by which to relate to the music, and thus his subconscious uptake of the message conveyed is mitigated; he sees it more as "fantasy" than reality, since no part of it comports with his experience of reality. Even under the best of conditions, however, immoral and depraved cultural products have an influence on a person's psychological makeup; to argue against that in this day and age is insane.


Yes, yes-- all you guys saying this are correct. If we had hardcore porn on all channels at all hours, and all our entertainment depicted people cursing at and killing each other for no reason while they forced women to blow them, it would have no social effect at all. :lol Real smart, that. Actually, you know what? Its effects might be mitigated if all children were guaranteed a stable, two-parent family where one parent was always at home with the child, since I personally feel that a stable, caring family structure is the single biggest predictor of future behavior (among innumerable contributory factors including music/entertainment, as mentioned earlier). Note: "might be", not "would be"; "mitigated", not "eliminated". But since this is never going to happen, why are people still defending this shit? It's like saying, "in an ideal world, I'd be able to do A, B, and C." Well the world isn't ideal-- now how are you going to deal with the world we do have? If you refuse to deal with the world we've inherited, and to speak good sense within the logical confines of that world, then don't complain when people dismiss your opinions as nonsensical.


Because that's what they are: nonsensical. There are no redeeming qualities about most rap music, particularly the songs that generally get airtime. Do I enjoy rap music? Certainly-- even the misogynistic and violent stuff from guys like Jay-Z. It's mostly for the beats, though. I can also appreciate the artform and the skill it takes to rap-- I just don't like what they're saying. If you took these same artists with these same talents and told them to make a nicely flowing rap song with a good beat and a positive message, there is no doubt in my mind that they could do so; rap would lose nothing in terms of the quality of the songs if the rampant immorality were removed. Not a single thing. To assert otherwise is to mistake essential features for extant features.


To my mind, there is no acceptable reason to proffer such ignorance.

 

[The Faceless Master]

the redeeming quality is that it entertains you... either lyricaly, musically, the message, or you are entertained by the ass on the chick that's rubbing up on your dick in the club...

i'm not all that into rap, i'm more into reggae/dancehall, but i'd like to show a quick example of what i thought was probably one of the hottest lines in 2003...

Listen, I'ma leave you right where you stand
Have the ambulance pass ya Timberlands off right to ya man
Cuz he pussy, he ain't gonna do nothin but look
When it come to beef, he don't wanna do nothing but cook

well, i've ducked in and out of this thread, i should go log on an step pon chi-chi man cuz Ele said so...

 

[Loki]

the redeeming quality is that it entertains you... either lyricaly, musically, the message, or you are entertained by the ass on the chick that's rubbing up on your dick in the club...

Well, yeah, it may be entertaining, but that's a circular argument when you think about it since anything can be entertaining based on how one has been acculturated, which was the process that my post was concerned with. Also, something being "entertaining" is not a "redeeming quality" in the sense that I intended it (and the sense it's typically used in), which is a "socially redeeming quality". I stand by that statement. Your quoted lyrics speak to my point, as does the last sentence in the above quote...


Further, the "lyrics" and the "message" are what we're discussing here-- the fact that they may resonate with a certain segment of society does not imbue the music with socially redeeming value; these are two entirely separate issues.

 

[XS+]

Listen, I'ma leave you right where you stand
Have the ambulance pass ya Timberlands off right to ya man
Cuz he pussy, he ain't gonna do nothin but look
When it come to beef, he don't wanna do nothing but cook

What makes the verse above one of the hottest of this year? It's a verse that proudly boasts of killing another, lyrics unabashed in their delight at ending yet another, presumably black, life in the innercity. Jadakiss' verse about shorting the life of another earns the honor of being the "hottest," in your eyes. How sad is that? Last year, I'm sure many young black men lost their lives, or suffered gunshot wounds, from various brutes who, like you, found this verse to be the "hottest."

 

[VPhys]

What makes the verse above one of the hottest of this year? It's a verse that proudly boasts of killing another, lyrics unabashed in their delight at ending yet another, presumably black, life in the innercity. Jadakiss' verse about shorting the life of another earns the honor of being the "hottest," in your eyes. How sad is that? Last year, I'm sure many young black men lost their lives, or suffered gunshot wounds, from various brutes who, like you, found this verse to be the "hottest."

American culture as a whole is fascinated with violence. Look at the popularity of the Sopranos. It's entertainment.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Why is everybody attacking Futami (XS+)? It's not often that I'll say this, but he's absolutely on target with his analysis of the issue. Anybody who doesn't see the wisdom in much of what he's saying (not the censorship stuff, but the general point about the pernicious effect of rap music in the community) is deluding themselves, quite frankly. Anyone who thinks that social critics speak out against rap music for racist reasons, rather than because it's the most egregious offender of civilized norms among the musical genres, is likewise deluded, and is being unnecessarily quarrelsome.


I, for one, am not racist, and I have on many occasions spoken out against metal/rock and pop music for the memes they were conveying. To imply that anybody who takes exception to the stream of filth that issues forth from purveyors of "mainstream rap" is some sort of closet racist is just very, very silly.


Like -jinx- said, at this point it's all a self-reinforcing cycle, and I really don't think there are any easy answers. The environment (of which culture is an integral component, not just some minor, uninfluential part) has helped shape the ideals and behavior of the populace; this, in turn, influences both the type of cultural products (of which music is one) that people will be inclined to create as well as what will be viable in the marketplace due to the altered tastes of the consumer base. It also affects behavior-- perhaps not to the same extent as, say, coming from an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional household, but it is undeniably an influence. I honestly cannot believe the ignorance on display in this thread, with people insisting that the environment (yes, that includes music and TV) has but a negligible effect on people's behaviors and attitudes. Go read some of the psychological literature, for your own sakes.


Sure, there are exceptions-- kids who grow up listening to rap music and suffer no ill effects later on in life; this is because the music (or TV or whatever) is not the sole determinant of future behavior, but rather conspires with and is mitigated by other deletrious and/or beneficial influences in one's life to shape one's attitudes and behaviors. To point to someone you know and say, "hey, he listened to nothing but gangsta rap and is an upstanding citizen!" betrays a deep ignorance of both psychology, the human condition, and the nature of social interactions and the statistical correlations that can be brought to bear in describing them. It's really just absurd to sit there and defend utter shit by arguing that "people understand the difference between fact and fiction". Yes, on a conscious level, most adults do; the problem with rap (besides the fact that children listen to it as well) is that in addition to the message conveyed by the lyrics, people living in inner city neighborhoods may see certain features described by the rap music in their own neighborhoods (drug use, gang violence etc.), and so its message is reinforced. It thus has more force as a message than that same song being heard by an upper-class kid living with two parents in a gated community, because the upper-class kid has no reference point by which to relate to the music, and thus his subconscious uptake of the message conveyed is mitigated; he sees it more as "fantasy" than reality, since no part of it comports with his experience of reality. Even under the best of conditions, however, immoral and depraved cultural products have an influence on a person's psychological makeup; to argue against that in this day and age is insane.


Yes, yes-- all you guys saying this are correct. If we had hardcore porn on all channels at all hours, and all our entertainment depicted people cursing at and killing each other for no reason while they forced women to blow them, it would have no social effect at all. :lol Real smart, that. Actually, you know what? Its effects might be mitigated if all children were guaranteed a stable, two-parent family where one parent was always at home with the child, since I personally feel that a stable, caring family structure is the single biggest predictor of future behavior (among innumerable contributory factors including music/entertainment, as mentioned earlier). Note: "might be", not "would be"; "mitigated", not "eliminated". But since this is never going to happen, why are people still defending this shit? It's like saying, "in an ideal world, I'd be able to do A, B, and C." Well the world isn't ideal-- now how are you going to deal with the world we do have? If you refuse to deal with the world we've inherited, and to speak good sense within the logical confines of that world, then don't complain when people dismiss your opinions as nonsensical.


Because that's what they are: nonsensical. There are no redeeming qualities about most rap music, particularly the songs that generally get airtime. Do I enjoy rap music? Certainly-- even the misogynistic and violent stuff from guys like Jay-Z. It's mostly for the beats, though. I can also appreciate the artform and the skill it takes to rap-- I just don't like what they're saying. If you took these same artists with these same talents and told them to make a nicely flowing rap song with a good beat and a positive message, there is no doubt in my mind that they could do so; rap would lose nothing in terms of the quality of the songs if the rampant immorality were removed. Not a single thing. To assert otherwise is to mistake essential features for extant features.


To my mind, there is no acceptable reason to proffer such ignorance.

Longer than Canibus.

This can be answered simply supply = demand. As long as record companies think only 'gangsta' rap or 'bling' rap sells (and there are plenty of people to do it ) and people buy it so continues the cycle. These same people continue to make generalisations about Hip-Hop.
Look Nas is releasing Just a Moment as his next single:

[Verse 1: Quan]
Can we please have a moment of silence?
That's for my niggaz doin' years in confinement
And for my soldiers who passed over, no longer living
That couldn't run whenever the reaper came to get 'em
Can we please pour out some liquor?
Symobolizin', let's take in time to consider that
Though our thugs ain't here, the love is here
And we gon' rep 'til slugs kill us here
This for my dawgs stuck in the struggle tryin' to gain
Smokin' trauma, sniffin' Ra while sellin' cocaine
Trapped in the game, not knowin' how to stop and get by
To live it alive, so instead they live it to die
Can we please have a moment of peace?
For every G that fell for his flag in the streets
Bloodin' and thuggin', folkin' and lokin'
Crypin' and creepin', Latin and kingin'
Or just for poor righteous teachin'

[Chorus: Quan sings]
As days goes and nights fall
For the rest of our life we'll miss y'all
And even though life must go on, we'll still mourn
While wishin' y'all were home

[Verse 2: Nas]
Yeah, and can we have another moment of silence?
For brothers who died from black-on-black violence
From here to the Dark Continent were rebels sell diamonds
To clients allover the world, got little Black girls dyin'
And can we please pour some more liquors?
For Will, Bokeem, Bar, Pappy -- my niggaz
Here's another Warrior Song from Nasty and Quan
It's to him I pass the baton to carry this on
Street's Disciple, salute to those who's gone with bullets
And I promise through rhymin' Quan gon' rep his life to the fullest
And can we please have a moment of truth?
For soldiers and troops away with helmets and boots
And families back home who pray they make it home safe
Hopin' that they don't get hit with a stray or missiles
This is just a moment to let you all know that we miss you
Mommy I'm still here, wishin' I was there with you
Let's take 'em home

[Chorus]

[Verse 3: Quan]
And can we please have a moment to mourn?
For Pac, Biggie and Pun 'cause through us they live on
Jam Master Jay, Freaky Ty and Alliyah
Big L and Left Eye, when we die we wish to see ya
Can we please have a moment for children?
Who got raped or murdered, or trapped in the system
Who never knew their father, never learned to dream
But was guided by drug dealers, killers and crack fiends
For single mothers that's forced to play mom and dad
Bustin' her ass to give her kids shit she never had
For my niggaz in the pen hopin' rhymes'll get 'em signed
So when released, they can say bye to a life of crime
For very mother that held a son in the street bleedin'
Cryin' a song of sorow to dark and deep for speakin'
Just a moment outside the day to day struggle
To let the ones we really care about know that we love 'em

[Chorus]

Now tell me how far is this song going to go up the charts?

Rap has been classified as 'party' music now people forget the lyricism behind it.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

Only way you'll see a change in hip hop music, paticularly the use of violence and profanity to get a point across, is for there to be a change in society. The words in rap are reflection of what has been seen, experiences, how he or she was raised.

You can't ask someone like 50, who grew up in the struggle surrounded by the hustle and no psitive influences to have any considerably positve words to say, shit, his moms was a crack dealer and died doing it. Do you really expect a kid in the ghetto, who see crack sales, murder(187), robbery(211), young ladies eaten up the drug dealer lifestyle, having anything positive to say. Some of the kids I new were selling drugs at age 15, you can't expect him, if he inks a record deal to have anything positive to say. The influences you have in and outside the home determines the path that will be taken in hip hop.

As long as the most successful rap artist are coming from the hood, this shit will never change. You are product of your environment.

You can take the boy out the hood, but you can't take the hood out the homeboy.

These young ladies need to stop acting like ho's, some of these women go to clubs just to try to have sex, with any rap artist thats hot at the moment.

Girls Gone Wild is worse than the few videos you see today, many of the females in the GGW vids show ho tendencies.

So until the government put as much money as they are into Iraq, into removing crack from the inner cities and do a better job at making sure guns don't leave the hands of the person who purchased them legally. Hip hop will still sound the same.

I want to know why do bitches, ho's, chicken heads, hood rats exist?


And don't get me wrong, there's some men out their that has some of those titles hanging up over their heads aswell.

I'll be glad when they go ahead and win this so called war on drugs.

 

[Loki]

American culture as a whole is fascinated with violence. Look at the popularity of the Sopranos. It's entertainment.

No doubt that our fascination with violence extends to our entire culture and not just rap music, but you'd have to be pretty blind to not be able to see a difference of degree between various cultural products (e.g., between TV shows on the whole and rap on the whole; it's unfair to compare the worst TV shows to rap in general). Rap is one of the worst offenders in terms of perpetuating stereotypes and glorifying a criminal mentality and lifestyle, imo. So though I do stand against any "artistic" product in any sphere that conveys these messages (and have stated as much on a number of occasions), I am not out of line for criticizing rap most severely, nor is anyone else.


It's just too ubiquitous, and the ideals it proffers too base, to be anything other than harmful imo.

 

[The Faceless Master]

What makes the verse above one of the hottest of this year? It's a verse that proudly boasts of killing another, lyrics unabashed in their delight at ending yet another, presumably black, life in the innercity. Jadakiss' verse about shorting the life of another earns the honor of being the "hottest," in your eyes. How sad is that? Last year, I'm sure many young black men lost their lives, or suffered gunshot wounds, from various brutes who, like you, found this verse to be the "hottest."

it was entertaining because the way it was stated was so extremely witty

 

[The Faceless Master]

Well, yeah, it may be entertaining, but that's a circular argument when you think about it since anything can be entertaining based on how one has been acculturated, which was the process that my post was concerned with. Also, something being "entertaining" is not a "redeeming quality" in the sense that I intended it (and the sense it's typically used in), which is a "socially redeeming quality". I stand by that statement. Your quoted lyrics speak to my point, as does the last sentence in the above quote...


Further, the "lyrics" and the "message" are what we're discussing here-- the fact that they may resonate with a certain segment of society does not imbue the music with socially redeeming value; these are two entirely separate issues.

well, who decides what a socially redeeming quality is?

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

Consider this, NWA first album released after the emergence of crack in the inner city.

This is why you have songs titled "Dope man". On top of that, the song was about the dope man and not about anyone from the group selling it.

 

[XS+]

You can't ask someone like 50, who grew up in the struggle surrounded by the hustle and no psitive influences to have any considerably positve words to say, shit, his moms was a crack dealer and died doing it. Do you really expect a kid in the ghetto, who see crack sales, murder(187), robbery(211), young ladies eaten up the drug dealer lifestyle, having anything positive to say. Some of the kids I new were selling drugs at age 15, you can't expect him, if he inks a record deal to have anything positive to say. The influences you have in and outside the home determines the path that will be taken in hip hop.

So, in order to escape the clutches of poverty that saw him incarcerated, shot, and poisoning his community to eat, 50 markets music that bathes in the very depravity he sought respite from. That makes sense to you? Throughout ghettos in our country, pockets of our largest cities ravaged by the rot of perpetual destitution, 50 cent and his ilk diffuse music awash in degeneracy, almost taunting the wayward youths of our ghettos to pursue that bling through the very malfeasant means that 50 and his vicious ilk profited off. You people are excusing the worst kind of immorality, suggesting that one's condition justifies their advocacy of behavior that can only be described as that of a savage.

I don't expect 50 cent to say anything positive, which is why I would like record companies held accountable for the garbage they peddle to youths without fathers, children without any hope, who're left to fend for themselves under the most debilitating of conditions.

These people are the WORST kind of sellouts. For millions, they knowingly pervert the minds of an uneducated, malnourished, and destitute class.

Some of the excuses in this thread are so pathetically bankrupt, intellectually and morally.

 

[Loki]

This can be answered simply supply = demand. As long as record companies think only 'gangsta' rap or 'bling' rap sells (and there are plenty of people to do it ) and people buy it so continues the cycle. These same people continue to make generalisations about Hip-Hop.

No, it can't be "answered simply" by stating that "supply = demand", A) because I'm well-aware of that, and B) because it has nothing at all to do with what I was speaking of.


The answer, I feel (to speak to both you and OG_Original Gamer here), is to focus on changing the communities first, which will then lead to a change in the types of entertainment that are viable in the market. Families and individuals have to start taking more responsibility for themselves. If that means not having kids with a man you've known for a few weeks, so be it-- keep your legs shut or get on the pill; if it means making time for your kids after work, so be it-- stop watching Ricki Lake or smoking bud.

At the same time, education must be turned into something other than a sham and an afterthought by way of increased funding, stricter disciplinary standards, and teacher recruitment efforts. After-school programs and other community rescources such as YMCA's should be more adequately funded to give kids a place to go besides the streets; mentoring should be occurring in all these places, as well as in the church and the home. Further, jobs need to be created and the living standards of those already with jobs need to be raised via wage and benefit increases. Gangs should be prosecuted via RICO statutes the same way they did with the mafia-- get them off the street. Loitering laws for large groups should be strictly enforced, and penalties should be stiff for anyone found with an illegal gun, not just one month probation or some such.


Over time, such initiatives would change some portion of the populace, and would allow them to see the majority of rap music for what it is: poison. It would then become less economically viable, and companies (who would still be looking to maximize profits) would have to get a finger on the pulse of the community to find out what would sell, which would hopefully be at least somewhat more enlightened fare. This process would snowball and continue; it would take many years-- decades, even-- but it would happen, and we owe it to those children and families to make it happen. Like I said in a thread a while back: this process is the exact opposite of the social degeneration that led us to where we are today; there is no logical reason why the process could not be reversed over time. It wasn't always this way. It'd admittedly be a herculean effort, but I don't see any other way effect lasting change, really.

well, who decides what a socially redeeming quality is?

Not Jay-Z and his ilk, that's who. Sane, reasonably habituated, non-pathological individuals of all persuasions. To believe that what is "socially redeeming" is "all in the eye of the beholder" is foolish (no offense), and betrays a lack of insight. Even if you hold to moral relativism on a personal level, to not see that certain values and behaviors serve to hold society together and make it function more optimally, and others the opposite, shows that you haven't really examined things beyond a superficial level. Which begs the question of why you're bothering to argue with me rather than doing some reading.

(and yes, I apologize if that came off as condescending, which it likely did; I didn't mean to offend you at all-- that's just how I feel, and I can't really phrase it more tactfully )

 

[The Faceless Master]

it's entertainment, and i treat it as such, if it entertains me, then i think it's redeeming, that's all there is to it...

Like, castor oil, I Castor Troy you
Change your face or the bullets change all that for you
... y'all niggaz is targets
Y'all garages for bullets, please don't make me park it
in your upper level, valet a couple strays
from the 38 special, nigga, God bless you

hearing a flow like that it amusing to me, but im not gonna go out and empty a clip on someone cuz jay rapped about it... and anyone who says they did is just making an excuse for their criminal behavior...

 

[Loki]

it's entertainment, and i treat it as such, if it entertains me, then i think it's redeeming, that's all there is to it

Yes, and we're back to square one, because what is "entertaining" is not necessarily "socially redeeming", as I mentioned before; therefore, your statement is not a refutation of mine.

hearing a flow like that it amusing to me, but im not gonna go out and empty a clip on someone cuz jay rapped about it... and anyone who says they did is just making an excuse for their criminal behavior...

Of course you're not going to run out and empty a clip on someone, and neither will anyone else-- nobody (save the most impressionable among us) is going hear such lyrics and decide then and there to act them out. Unfortunately, human psychology and behavioral/moral development is a bit more complex than you're giving it credit for; I've tried to speak to this fact in my posts, but it seems you want to continue to believe that culture in general, and entertainment in particular, has no effect on people's ideals, motivations, and behaviors. This is irrevocably false, and I urge you to check out a developmental psychology book from the local university library or do a google search if you don't believe me.


I'll leave it at that; most of what I wanted to say is contained in my previous posts.

 

[Fresh Prince]

No, it can't be "answered simply" by stating that "supply = demand", A) because I'm well-aware of that, and B) because it has nothing at all to do with what I was speaking of.


The answer, I feel (to speak to both you and OG_Original Gamer here), is to focus on changing the communities first, which will then lead to a change in the types of entertainment that are viable in the market. Families and individuals have to start taking more responsibility for themselves. If that means not having kids with a man you've known for a few weeks, so be it-- keep your legs shut or get on the pill; if it means making time for your kids after work, so be it-- stop watching Ricki Lake or smoking bud.

At the same time, education must be turned into something other than a sham and an afterthought by way of increased funding, stricter disciplinary standards, and teacher recruitment efforts. After-school programs and other community rescources such as YMCA's should be more adequately funded to give kids a place to go besides the streets; mentoring should be occurring in all these places, as well as in the church and the home. Further, jobs need to be created and the living standards of those already with jobs need to be raised via wage and benefit increases. Gangs should be prosecuted via RICO statutes the same way they did with the mafia-- get them off the street. Loitering laws for large groups should be strictly enforced, and penalties should be stiff for anyone found with an illegal gun, not just one month probation or some such.


Over time, such initiatives would change some portion of the populace, and would allow them to see the majority of rap music for what it is: poison. It would then become less economically viable, and companies (who would still be looking to maximize profits) would have to get a finger on the pulse of the community to find out what will sell, which would hopefully be at least slightly more enlightened fare. This process would snowball and continue; it would take many years-- decades, even-- but it would happen, and we owe it to those children and families to make it happen. Like I said in a thread a while back: this process is the exact opposite of the social degeneration that led us to where we are today; there is no logical reason why the process could not be reversed over time. It wasn't always this way. It'd admittedly be a herculean effort, but I don't see any other way effect lasting change, really.




Not Jay-Z and his ilk, that's who. Sane, reasonably habituated, non-pathological individuals of all persuasions. To believe that what is "socially redeeming" is all "in the eye of the beholder" is foolish (no offense), and betrays a lack of insight. Even if you hold to moral relativism on a personal level, to not see that certain values and behaviors serve to hold society together and make it function more optimally, and others the opposite, shows that you haven't really examined things beyond a superficial level. Which begs the question of why you're bothering to argue with me rather than doing some reading.

(and yes, I apologize if that came off as condescending, which it likely did; I didn't mean to offend you at all-- that's just how I feel, and I can't really phrase it more tactfully )

And who is going to start the chain off? The companies? The artists? The fans of 'good' Hip-Hop? The government? Community leaders? Parents?
Look I stopped 'pimping' some of my favourite artists(Nas, Ras Kass, Brother Ali, Talib etc) to my real world friends since simply they like black people to be funny, ignorant and gangsta. Sad but true. Now I rolleyes try to say that Hip-Hop is much more than being stupid, getting angry, getting drunk etc but if they want to see Hip-Hop like that what can I do?

Artists do the same.
Did you take time to read Nas new single? Overall that is a positive message saying that type of life is wrong. But do you think people are going to cop the single? Probably not (except for I can that sold because of the kids). Companies give the people what they want\or what they are lead to believe is 'real' Hip-Hop.

And Rawkus(concious record label)-what happened here?

The government (in America presumably) feeds off the negativity of Hip-Hop thus they do not want to stop the problem just seem to be doing about it.

Community leaders have real world issues- people are dying already, having overdoses etc. They have limited resources. They do have to act on the present.
Whatever said is done rapping, crack, pimping etc all seem a good way to get money.
These rappers are brought as idols- right now they are as imprtant as parents to some children.

Parents are probably working 9 to 5, maybe have two jobs etc. Where is the time to teach the children not to follow their idols? They are earning a living to eat first and then a living for their children presumably. Also I wouldn't be suprised if some parents are caught up in the same materialism.

What you are saying is not new. These initiative\ideas have probably been the same in the 70's or 80's in black communities. The real problem is white people buy records, black people bootleg more often and count for only I think 10% of the population. Hence most rap is marketed towards white people.
Sadly some white people start to act like thugs. Some black people decide to be thugs.

Rap is just compounding the issue- not creating it.

Also being I'm not black these are my opinions gathered from various Hip-Hop sites I visit. No disrespect.

 

[Shinobi]

People wanna talk about the way women are degraded in hip-hop? Look at the movie industry. Numerous examples of female actresses that can't get a big role UNTIL they expose their tit and/or get boned on screen. And we're not just talking throwaway actresses either, but women with actual acting talent? Why is that? Why is it that actresses are pressured into being thin? Why is it that an actress can say in an interview that they have to maintain a certain level of weight in order to see their career grow, or feel that they need to be seen in a sexual light (be it in movies or in some magazine spread) in order to catch a big break, and nobody bats a fucking eye? Where's the outrage over this blatant sexism? You gonna tell me rap music is more accessible to kids then these movies or TV shows? Don't make me laugh.

This shit is everywhere. Either start at the root of the problem, or shut the fuck up.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

So, in order to escape the clutches of poverty that saw him incarcerated, shot, and poisoning his community to eat, 50 markets music that bathes in the very depravity he sought respite from. That makes sense to you? Throughout ghettos in our country, pockets of our largest cities ravaged by the rot of perpetual destitution, 50 cent and his ilk diffuse music awash in degeneracy, almost taunting the wayward youths of our ghettos to pursue that bling through the very malfeasant means that 50 and his vicious ilk profited off. You people are excusing the worst kind of immorality, suggesting that one's condition justifies their advocacy of behavior that can only be described as that of a savage.

I don't expect 50 cent to say anything positive, which is why I would like record companies held accountable for the garbage they peddle to youths without fathers, children without any hope, who're left to fend for themselves under the most debilitating of conditions.

These people are the WORST kind of sellouts. For millions, they knowingly pervert the minds of an uneducated, malnourished, and destitute class.

Some of the excuses in this thread are so pathetically bankrupt, intellectually and morally.

What I'm saying is this, it doesn't matter how much you complain about what rap artist are saying, unless there are changes made where they come from. I'm not making excuses, the same kids that are listening to the rap music we here today, can walk outside and see it for themselves. Crack, prositution, murder, robbery, its hard to not talk about it, when you constantly see it or grew up with it.

If your a gang member who has a talent, you get recognized for that talent. Because you are a gang member, what will be your songs be based on, they will based on the lifestyle you have led. You may even glorify it, but in your mind what you're doing is speaking about what you know.

If there not idealizing the rap artist, they'll be idealizing the neighborhood crack dealer or his gang banging brother, uncle, cousin or next door neighbor. After he has sold crack and gang bang and has been incarcerated, his first hiphop will be in your local music store.

His album won't be any different 50's, Jay-Z, Cam-ron, but not because of there influence , the neighborhood he grew up in has already influenced him.

Jay-Z going positive won't change a thing, unless the neighborhoods change and kids see a alternative, which should give them a different story to tell.

 

[Loki]

And who is going to start the chain off? The companies? The artists? The fans of 'good' Hip-Hop? The government? Community leaders? Parents?

The latter three, in my opinion. The rest would fall in line after society's mores had shifted appreciably, because society (i.e., one's environment) creates the artist, as yourself and OG have mentioned; companies will always seek profits, and will thus have to offer products in keeping with the new public sensibility and values. As I said, this would take years, but it's the only way to a lasting change w/o utilizing draconian tactics such as censorship imo.

Companies give the people what they want\or what they are lead to believe is 'real' Hip-Hop.

This was addressed in my post; the profit motive can remain in place, but there will be dramatically different wares being peddled once society itself starts to change.

The government (in America presumably) feeds off the negativity of Hip-Hop thus they do not want to stop the problem just seem to be doing about it.

If I'm reading your statement correctly, I'd say that you're venturing into tinfoil-hat territory here (e.g., gov't wanting to keep the black man down etc.); I will admit, however, that not nearly enough is being done on the federal and state level to address the issues of the inner city, and I related how I feel that should be remedied in the post you quoted. I just don't believe that such negligence is indicative of some sort of conspiracy, since the gov't has also been lax in its responsibilities to a great many other people-- of all races-- regarding various social issues.

Community leaders have real world issues- people are dying already, having overdoses etc. They have limited resources. They do have to act on the present.

Yes, obviously they have to tend to the needs of their constituents and neighbors in the present, but I also feel that they, along with our state and federal governments, need to start laying the groundwork for permanent change rather than continuing to apply ineffectual band-aids. The "limited resources" would be taken care of by giving them more resources, like I said in my post. Clearly, they cannot embark on this undertaking alone, as-is.

Whatever said is done rapping, crack, pimping etc all seem a good way to get money.

Obviously, which is why opportunities for jobs and education in the inner cities need to be expanded; I addressed this in my post.

Parents are probably working 9 to 5, maybe have two jobs etc. Where is the time to teach the children not to follow their idols? They are earning a living to eat first and then a living for their children presumably.

I addressed this. Things won't change right away, but with the right combination of reforms and initiatives, I feel that positive change-- to whatever degree-- would be inevitable. Day care is also something that should be funded in such areas, or sponsored by local community groups and/or churches. It's much needed.

Also I wouldn't be suprised if some parents are caught up in the same materialism.

They undoubtedly are, which is why such reforms would take time to bear fruits. Community-based education (of adults) on these matters is also important.

What you are saying is not new. These initiative\ideas have probably been the same in the 70's or 80's in black communities

I never claimed that my ideas were novel or revolutionary, and I'm aware that they have been around for a while-- I just feel that they've never been properly implemented, and I think the "results" we see in our inner cities as well as the level of funding and national attention given to the problem are representative of that fact.

The real problem is white people buy records, black people bootleg more often and count for only I think 10% of the population. Hence most rap is marketed towards white people.

White society has also been improperly habituated, and are in need of some of the same help as already mentioned, though not to as great an extent. Like blacks, whites buy the shit rap that's out there because they're inundated by it, and because it's catchy. And believe me when I tell you that white society has been affected by rap music as well, though not nearly to the same degree; this is because outside of the inner cities, people tend to have higher incomes, more extracurricular activities available to them, more stable family units, and less pervasive violence and drug peddling. But I've met many white kids who've adopted that thug persona, even to the point of being violent, crass, eschewing education and a honest job etc. Such memes are infectious to people (not exclusively to whites or blacks) because they are base and, hence, "easy" (it's easier to be an angry young man than to be restrained and civil; easier to be a good-for-nothing who hangs out in the neighborhood all day drinking than to hold down a job or better oneself through education-- all of this is too easy, and thus appeals to our natural predilection towards indolence and intemperance). Ideally, our entire social structure would be reformed from the top down. To go into further detail would take too long, and would no doubt bore you to (more) tears.

Rap is just compounding the issue- not creating it.

More accurately, it's a cycle-- rap is both created by, and creates, the society (i.e., the values and behaviors of the people). This is the essence of the findings on human psychology over the last 50 years in terms of our interactions with our society/culture.



Hope this clarified some things.


EDIT:

You gonna tell me rap music is more accessible to kids then these movies or TV shows? Don't make me laugh.

To kids in suburbia? Perhaps not. To kids in the inner city? Certainly. I'm pretty sure that most inner-city kids get more exposure to the latest Jay-Z album than to "Mean Girls" starring Lindsay Lohan.


Your points are duly noted, however (and correct). But since I am advocating changing things "at the root" (though my posts herein have been concerned mostly with rap and the inner cities, I advocate similar things for all of society in terms of eradicating/mitigating materialism, suggestibility, and other socially undesirable behaviors/conditions, as I'm sure you've seen in other threads), I'm not going to "shut the fuck up".

 

[UtadaBarkley]

What makes the verse above one of the hottest of this year? It's a verse that proudly boasts of killing another, lyrics unabashed in their delight at ending yet another, presumably black, life in the innercity. Jadakiss' verse about shorting the life of another earns the honor of being the "hottest," in your eyes. How sad is that? Last year, I'm sure many young black men lost their lives, or suffered gunshot wounds, from various brutes who, like you, found this verse to be the "hottest."

What are you doing for your inner city communities, to help change things?

 

[The Faceless Master]

Yes, and we're back to square one, because what is "entertaining" is not necessarily "socially redeeming", as I mentioned before; therefore, your statement is not a refutation of mine.

back to square one indeed .. who deides what socially redeeming is? society? are the listeners and buyers not a part of society? are they taking it in as entertainment or art or actually taking it seriously and mimicong what they hear?

Of course you're not going to run out and empty a clip on someone, and neither will anyone else-- nobody (save the most impressionable among us) is going hear such lyrics and decide then and there to act them out. Unfortunately, human psychology and behavioral/moral development is a bit more complex than you're giving it credit for; I've tried to speak to this fact in my posts, but it seems you want to continue to believe that culture in general, and entertainment in particular, has no effect on people's ideals, motivations, and behaviors. This is irrevocably false, and I urge you to check out a developmental psychology book from the local university library or do a google search if you don't believe me.

I'll leave it at that; most of what I wanted to say is contained in my previous posts.

and with all the sources that agree, there are many that disagree as well...

fact? no...

 

[Shinobi]

To kids in suburbia? Perhaps not. To kids in the inner city? Certainly. I'm pretty sure that most inner-city kids get more exposure to the latest Jay-Z album than to "Mean Girls" starring Lindsay Lohan.

:lol Mean Girls is but one of a thousand examples. Nevermind movies, just look at TV. Even if you don't have cable, people can be subjected to (or be chosen to be subjected to) soaps, daytime talk shows, sitcoms, drama and "reality" TV. Each genre is filled to the back teeth with sex. That's not even getting into the commercials, or movies that they might show.

Or how about the magazine racks at the corner store? Men's mags like Maxim are said to exploit women, yet go look at the cover of the women's mags and you see similiar provocative poses on the cover, or monthly articles on how to lose a few more pounds so you won't need an x-ray machine to see your insides, or articles on even more ways to please your man in bed. And most of those women's mags are run by chicks. This stuff is all over the place, and you can't avoid it unless you keep your eyes shut or move through life with your head up your ass (which seems to be common on these shores).

 

[XS+]

What are you doing for your inner city communities, to help change things?

I don't live in the innercity, for one, but that's immaterial. There's such a thing as personal responsibility, a virtue many in the innercity have shown themselves unwilling to aspire to. It is not incumbent upon me to change their lives. They must take it upon themselves to shoulder the hardship their surroundings cast upon them and effect change. I am not their caretaker. Your question is a copout, rather than an acknowledgement of the pathology that has stricken those in the innercity, excusing these offenders of decency when they should be held accountable for their behavior. Not everyone who lives in the innercity is averse to personal responsibility.

 

[XS+]

Just to set the record straight, I'm personally not offended by sex. However, mysogyny is a transgression I hold deep disdain for. My problem with certain rap artists has more to do with their promotion of criminality than it does the lascivious excess in some of their ryhmes. Sex is good, but selling crack and killing other young black men is evil. Jay-Z, 50, et. al. think crime pays, the catastrophic effects of their degenerate behavior be damned.

 

[Loki]

Shinobi:


Like I said, you're making valid points; since I am concerned with broad social change, however, and not just with reforming our inner cities or criticizing solely rap music, I can say what I've said and not be a hypocrite.

back to square one indeed .. who deides what socially redeeming is? society? are the listeners and buyers not a part of society? are they taking it in as entertainment or art or actually taking it seriously and mimicong what they hear?

Society decides what is acceptable based on its norms (no society is monolithic in terms of its collective ideals, nor should it be, but there are generally held beliefs). It also determines what values and behaviors will serve to hold society together (i.e., are "socially redeeming") and help it to function optimally (in the ideal case, a society's norms coincide with socially redeeming ideals/behaviors, but they don't always, as is the case when the norms are left unexamined, as Shinobi's points implicitly speak to); insofar as society is composed of far more people than just "the mainstream rap audience", it is not inconsistent to simultaneously state that, yes, many people like rap music, but that many others also dislike it and see it as a corrosive influence. Rap listeners are part of society, they are not "society" itself (i.e., the general social consensus).


Further, for something to be "socially redeeming" to my mind means that the actions or works of art under discussion contain memes that will contribute to the betterment of society, or to its sustainability; inasmuch as rap music (the typical stuff, at least) contains none of this-- and in fact actually does the opposite and erodes the foundations of civil society-- it (the "bad" rap) can never be classified as "socially redeeming". In fact, the only socially redeeming quality of "bad rap" that I can see is the fact that it provides a means of expression for one's emotions and experiences in an artistic medium (artistic expression is in itself a worthy and valuable thing, though it does not nearly outweigh these other concerns), and also that it can-- in those rare instances-- help lift someone out of poverty and turn them into a millionaire. But given the fact that this rags-to-riches scenario is rare, and the fact that the other noxious effects of rap's vile content and pervasiveness mitigate against it, it is only sensible to consider most of mainstream rap a "net bad" as opposed to a "net good" for society. I suppose it could also provide a cathartic release for those beset by tumultuous violence (in the Freudian sense that art and humor provide releases for our Id/destrudo) , but given the conditions in our inner cities, I'd say that the cathartic effect isn't quite substantial enough to matter.


This is the only logical conclusion to be drawn imo if we're looking at it from a philosophical/social standpoint rather than purely on the basis of its "entertainment value", which as previously noted is irrelevant since people are entertained by different things depending on how they've been habituated. So rap does not have to contain the messages it currently does-- it would still exist as a form of expression in a saner society, and would still be just as entertaining and catchy; to think otherwise is absurd.


Lastly, if you continue to harp on this point about "who decides what is socially redeeming", I'll have to say this: find me an exponent of mainstream rap (not the positive stuff that's floating around, but rather the shit we're exposed to daily) that can form a coherent argument about "what is good for society" (in the broad sense), and I'll perhaps be willing to listen. Perhaps. If that sounds presumptuous of me, that's because it is-- and that's because I am 100% certain that nobody who has given any significant amount of thought to what is good for society as a whole will defend mainstream rap music based on its purported "merits" (or lack thereof in this instance). Not a single person can tell me, logically, how it's anything but insidiously injurious. All they can do is fall back on the fact that it's "real" (no shit-- the question is whether that reality is something we should be defending and perpetuating, which is why we should endeavor to change it), or that it's "entertaining" (the merit of this claim was shot down earlier). If someone can show me how rap (not the medium, but rather the filth we're exposed to daily) contributes in any way to the overall improvement of society beyond what I've mentioned above, then I will admit my error. But in much the same way that I wouldn't listen to a second-grader if he attempted to tell me what was best for society, I will not listen to proponents of the worst sort of tripe tell me that rap is "socially redeeming" based on nothing more profound than its "entertainment value", which has absolutely nothing to do with what is best for society.



It never behooves a man to defend that which-- almost by its very nature-- is indefensible. One can enjoy something without championing it or bemoaning the fact that others quite correctly see it as a detriment to society. I like to listen to rap music, but I would never defend it as presently constituted, because as I said, it would be just as good if it contained a more positive message, and there's really no getting around that. Unless you think that these street poets can only make "bad" words flow together. :lol

and with all the sources that agree, there are many that disagree as well...

fact? no...

There is significant disagreement in the academic literature about the extent of the effect of our environment on our behavior and thoughts (to be clear, in terms of nature/nurture, you would be arguing for a pure "nature" view of the person), but there are virtually no purely "nature" psychologists in good standing today (and in fact the ones that do exist tend to be determinists in the philosophical sense and then erect a cognitive framework around this that is also "determined"; they get around the fact that even philosophical determinism takes into account the environment by means of assorted sophistry ). Show me a single purely "nature" psychologist, and I'll show you somehow who hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal for at least the last 20 years.


So yes, the fact that our environment has an influence on us is just that: a fact.

 

[DarienA]

Wait, wait wait... this is all funny, etc... but so many of the arguments I'm seeing by the anti-rap folks were tossed around when Metal was young or when groups like Black Sabbath, and/or Ozzie were in the spotlight. It's scary how similar the arguments against them were are being repeated in this thread... except back then it wasn't about selling drugs and bling, it was about DOING drugs, and just generic resisting authority.(OMG these groups are telling kids to do drugs and worship Satan!)

If someone can show me how rap (not the medium, but rather the filth we're exposed to daily) contributes in any way to the overall improvement of society beyond what I've mentioned above, then I will admit my error.

What kinda bullshit is this? Why single out rap music as not contributing to society? Are you fuckin kidding me? MOST entertainment mediums including some other forms of music don't contribute to the overall improvement of the society.

Some of you folks are on a slippery, censorship slope.

Here's the reality, and it's a pretty simple one.

A majority of the ills in today(US) society are created by the lack of a strong family unit at home. A lack of a strong family unit, creates a distorted view or right or wrong, a lack of respect for your fellow man, etc.... all of these things snowball and snowball in to the various activities we see today.

A campaign against rap music is not going to repair the family unit.

I've said my piece.

 

[RonaldoSan]

I'ts plain ignorant to blame hip-hop for all of this. Who honestly thinks censoring music, games and movies is gonna change a state of mind? The music is more or less a reflection of society. What kind of lyrics do you expect from a man growing up in a harsh environment? 50 Cent didn't have a father, his mother was killed at an early age, he sold drugs to make money and he was shot 9 times. Hip-hop didn't do these things to him... the society did. And you're pist because he tells you how his life is?

Is this magazine really pissed at hip-hop or at the women degrading themselves? I don't see blaming hip-hop is gonna do anything. In the end if you want to change, it's you who has to do it. Nobody can do that for you. So if this magazine wants to achieve anything, maybe it should tell it's readers to keep their clothes on.

 

[Tazznum1]

Amen...







Everyone loves Scarface...doesn't mean we're all chopping up our enemies with chainsaws. :lol

No>?

 

[effzee]

"They say music can alter moods and talk to you, well can it load a gun up for you , and cock it too?
Well if it can, then the next time you assault a dude, just tell the judge it was my fault and I'll get sued"

i dont have time to respond to some of the idead brought forward right now....but im just posting that much to say if u really think that a rapper pushes someone over the edge to sell drugs or to kill other people then they have tons of other problems not related to rap.

"ohh i was fine till that jay z...that motha fucker....told me to do it"
and why is jay z being crucified? if u actually past his singles he has tons of positive messages.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

and why is jay z being crucified? if u actually past his singles he has tons of positive messages.

Becasue everyone here complaining are all obviously paragons of morality and have solved all the other problems plaguing America and this one is the last one left.

 

[bob_arctor]

"They say music can alter moods and talk to you, well can it load a gun up for you , and cock it too?
Well if it can, then the next time you assault a dude, just tell the judge it was my fault and I'll get sued"

i dont have time to respond to some of the idead brought forward right now....but im just posting that much to say if u really think that a rapper pushes someone over the edge to sell drugs or to kill other people then they have tons of other problems not related to rap.

"ohh i was fine till that jay z...that motha fucker....told me to do it"
and why is jay z being crucified? if u actually past his singles he has tons of positive messages.

No one is saying Jay-Z or [fill in blank] compel anyone to do anything. But they sure as hell can't be helping, don't you think? I dunno, I am torn. I grew up in the heart of the South BX, in the PJ's, hearing nothing but hip-hop (I'm 32), and it had no discernible effect on me in terms of moral decisions and my view towards women. I was raised in a very tight-knit family w/ both a mom and dad who were always there for me. That said, now w/ kids of my own, especially my daughter, there's no way I'd let her near any of the crap on BET/MTV for the forseeable future. It does start with family, I guess, but where I was growing up, I was the exception, not the rule.

Edit: Surprised no one has mentioned GTA:SA or that new clone starring Snoop. Both make me want to vomit in disgust.

 

[DarienA]

No one is saying Jay-Z or [fill in blank] compel anyone to do anything. But they sure as hell can't be helping, don't you think? I dunno, I am torn. I grew up in the heart of the South BX, in the PJ's, hearing nothing but hip-hop (I'm 32), and it had no discernible effect on me in terms of moral decisions and my view towards women. I was raised in a very tight-knit family w/ both a mom and dad who were always there for me. That said, now w/ kids of my own, especially my daughter, there's no way I'd let her near any of the crap on BET/MTV for the forseeable future. It does start with family, I guess, but where I was growing up, I was the exception, not the rule.

Edit: Surprised no one has mentioned GTA:SA or that new clone starring Snoop. Both make me want to vomit in disgust.

GTA:SA is rated mature for a f'n reason. It starts with the family, fuckers.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

No one is saying Jay-Z or [fill in blank] compel anyone to do anything. But they sure as hell can't be helping, don't you think?

I don't care if they are helping or hurting. I see rap as I see all forms of entertainment. It is all escapism. Me personally, all I listen to is 666 Mafia, Too $hort, UGK, CMR, Lil John, Snoop Dogg, E-40, 8Ball and MJG. For the most part if it isn't out of the South or West I don't listen to it. That being said I make a big distinction between what entertains me and what motivates me. Those that can't are useless to society.

Edit: Surprised no one has mentioned GTA:SA or that new clone starring Snoop. Both make me want to vomit in disgust.

WHAT and I suppose all the other GTA's were fun for the whole family.

 

[Shig]

I wish most rappers would put their money where their mouth is (and no, I'm not referring to gol' teef). They base their entire act and message upon how hard life is in the inner city and the streets, but when they get their money, what do they do? They piss it away on self-fulfillment, bling and cars and mansions. The obvious thing to do would be to give some of that success back to those broken streets, try to give today's kids the better life those rappers never had growing up.

Rappers are always complaining about "the man" keeping them down, but when they come into money they become more of the man than whatever man they were complaining about, money-hoarding high-rollers that make their fortunes off of the common man and hardly give anything back to the community that got them where they are.

Before anyone gets persnickety, yes, the above is a broad generalization... but not an unfair one, I feel. Watch an episode of Cribs with any rapper and tell me these people as a whole don't live to incredible excess. That $150,000 spent on their third tricked-out Hummer would have been much more useful given to an inner-city school.

 

[bob_arctor]

GTA:SA is rated mature for a f'n reason. It starts with the family, fuckers.

Nah, that isn't enough. It does start w/ the family, but it also starts w/ being a little responsible. I dunno, I can't run around shooting up my own people. That shit just feels so wrong, especially w/ the environment I grew up in and the history of racism in this country.

The worst shit was during the Spike Video Game Awards, they had a commercial for that Snoop GTA clone and it was clips of the game and there was one where the lead black guy straight up shoots this young black kid in the face point blank. Made my jaw drop.

 

[DarienA]

Nah, that isn't enough. It does start w/ the family, but it also starts w/ being a little responsible. I dunno, I can't run around shooting up my own people. That shit just feels so wrong, especially w/ the environment I grew up in and the history of racism in this country.

Thanks for support what I said... it does start in the family because a strong family establishes core values of right and wrong, good and bad. A strong family establishes the difference between the fantasy portrayed via music, movies and videogames vs. real life.

That's what a real family does.

Because I grew up in a strong family I can watch violent moves, I can play violent videogames, and I can listen to violent music... and not be fazed by them, because I know the difference between all of that(fantasy) and what I do when I get up in the morning(reality). I know my responsibilities as an adult, a tax payer, father and spouse(not in that order). I know these things because my family taught me them.

Your shooting up my own people comment is strange. Did you have a problem shooting white people in Liberty and Vice City?

 

[bob_arctor]

Thanks for support what I said... it does start in the family because a strong family establishes core values of right and wrong, good and bad. A strong family establishes the difference between the fantasy portrayed via music, movies and videogames vs. real life.

That's what a real family does.

Because I grew up in a strong family I can watch violent moves, I can play violent videogames, and I can listen to violent music... and not be fazed by them, because I know the difference between all of that(fantasy) and what I do when I get up in the morning(reality). I know my responsibilities as an adult, a tax payer, father and spouse(not in that order). I know these things because my family taught me them.

Your shooting up my own people comment is strange. Did you have a problem shooting white people in Liberty and Vice City?

I definitely agree it's all about the family to help you distinguish between fantasy/reality etc. As for previous GTA's, I never played them. I am not a fan of the series at all. Being completely honest (and more than a little fucked up probably), it does bother me way more that San Andreas involves people of color.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I wish most rappers would put their money where their mouth is (and no, I'm not referring to gol' teef). They base their entire act and message upon how hard life is in the inner city and the streets, but when they get their money, what do they do? They piss it away on self-fulfillment, bling and cars and mansions. The obvious thing to do would be to give some of that success back to those broken streets, try to give today's kids the better life those rappers never had growing up.

Rappers are always complaining about "the man" keeping them down, but when they come into money they become more of the man than whatever man they were complaining about, money-hoarding high-rollers that make their fortunes off of the common man and hardly give anything back to the community that got them where they are.

Before anyone gets persnickety, yes, the above is a broad generalization... but not an unfair one, I feel. Watch an episode of Cribs with any rapper and tell me these people as a whole don't live to incredible excess. That $150,000 spent on their third tricked-out Hummer would have been much more useful given to an inner-city school.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I don't think they owe the people shit. They should be able to spend their money how they want and on what they want. If they choose to help a community then so be it and if they don't then so be it. Remember the part of these people you are seeing is the entertainment part. You are allowed to see what it is about them that moves units and that means you are going to hear a tough luck story and then you are going to see opulance. It's the American dream baby! Also you have no clue on how they spend their money they could be very giving but not public about it. And even if they aren't who cares.