Holy shit, are some people stubborn...
First off, the "why aren't other forms of entertainment criticisized" argument is a
bullshit argument-- both because they
are frequently criticized and because whether or not they are has
no bearing on rap's propriety as currently constituted. I personally have spoken out
numerous times against all sorts of entertainment,
all of which propagate spurious values-- do I have your "permission" to criticize rap now? :lol
DarienA said:
What kinda bullshit is this? Why single out rap music as not contributing to society? Are you fuckin kidding me? MOST entertainment mediums including some other forms of music don't contribute to the overall improvement of the society.
Again, I
didn't single out rap music, and I
have spoken out against other forms of entertainment-- it just so happens that this topic is about <shock!> rap music. Unless you've missed nearly every other culturally-related topic over the past 5 years, I'm not sure how you can level such a charge against me. I also didn't realize, however, that we weren't allowed to focus on specific art forms, mediums, or issues, but rather must always point out that
everything is fucked up. Yes,
everything is fucked up, by and large-- now can we move past this and discuss the issue at hand? I don't think that's asking too much...
Further, it was not long ago that 90% of the songs created were about either love or some social issue that was being addressed through the music. Even when I was a teenager in the mid-90's, the top 10 singles every week were
dominated by love songs-- not "let me fuck you, baby" songs, or "let me kill you, nigga" songs like they are today. Due to the fact that love itself is a socially redeeming value, as are attempts to address social issues through music (think: Bruce Hornsby's "That's Just The Way It Is" or Tupac's "Changes" and "Keep Ya Head Up"), music possessed
far more socially redeeming value than it has today-- and this goes for
all music, from rap to pop to rock.
DarienA said:
Some of you folks are on a slippery, censorship slope.
Actually, if you were referring to me, I'm on nothing of the sort-- did you even read my posts? I explicitly stated that censorship is unnecessary and undesirable when there are other avenues available that will effect lasting change.
DarienA said:
Here's the reality, and it's a pretty simple one.
A majority of the ills in today(US) society are created by the lack of a strong family unit at home. A lack of a strong family unit, creates a distorted view or right or wrong, a lack of respect for your fellow man, etc.... all of these things snowball and snowball in to the various activities we see today.
I have already noted the primacy of the family unit when discussing one's eventual behaviors and attitudes. In fact, these were my words:
Loki said:
Its effects might be mitigated if all children were guaranteed a stable, two-parent family where one parent was always at home with the child, since I personally feel that a stable, caring family structure is the single biggest predictor of future behavior (among innumerable contributory factors including music/entertainment, as mentioned earlier)
I also posted this, however:
Loki said:
But since this is never going to happen, why are people still defending this shit? It's like saying, "in an ideal world, I'd be able to do A, B, and C." Well the world isn't ideal-- now how are you going to deal with the world we do have? If you refuse to deal with the world we've inherited, and to speak good sense within the logical confines of that world, then don't complain when people dismiss your opinions as nonsensical.
And I stand by that statement.
Should we concomitantly seek to educate people so that we lower the incidence of single-parent and abusive/dysfunctional families? Of course; things is, we should be doing
both of these things (addressing the states of our families and also addressing our culture), since
both contribute to our attitudes and behaviors. To deny this is
absolutely ludicrous given what we know of human psychology. You're basically arguing against the sky being blue.
To say that one thing is the "biggest influence" (which is correct) does
not mean that other things in the environment have
no influence, or merely a negligible influence (which is false). My point is that we should address
all of these issues, not just those which suit our politics or preconceptions. I have proposed many "family-friendly" social reforms in other threads; however, education and community-based initiatives/pressure are the surest ways to effect change in that regard-- after all, a higher minimum wage or better benefits won't ensure that a father sticks around to raise his child instead of disappearing, will it?
DarienA said:
A campaign against rap music is not going to repair the family unit.
No shit-- you don't say?
I agree that it won't, which is why I advocate doing both. However, insofar as rap music advocates irresponsibility and sexual promiscuity, I think it would have
some effect-- not a marked one perhaps, but some. Still, the bulk of the work towards that end is to be done in the communities-- in the schools, civic centers, and churches.
RonaldoSan said:
I'ts plain ignorant to blame hip-hop for all of this. Who honestly thinks censoring music, games and movies is gonna change a state of mind? The music is more or less a reflection of society
No, let me lay this out for you (and all who've said such things) in plain english:
What is "plain ignorant" is the belief that one's environment (of which music/culture is an integral component, not just some minor part) has no effect (or a negligible effect) on a person's ideals and behaviors. It is an entirely untenable assertion, and I'd advise anyone making such a bogus claim to do some reading. Period.
As for the music being a reflection of society, I agree; the problem is that it's a self-reinforcing cycle, with society helping to create the minds who create the music, and the music then molding impressionable minds. As noted, a mind can be made LESS impressionable by a stable family unit and a relatively violence- and drug-free environment. A mind
cannot be made UNimpressionable, however, and
even in the best of cases (stable, loving family, good neighborhood and education etc.) corrosive influences such as rap music (and slutty pop music, and violent movies, to cover all my bases
)
do have a negative influence on the character and attitudes of a person. Period. There simply is no disputing that fact. I've seen it happen in my own life to a limited extent, so I know that it happens (never mind the fact that it's been documented innumerable times in academic journals).
effzee said:
but im just posting that much to say if u really think that a rapper pushes someone over the edge to sell drugs or to kill other people then they have tons of other problems not related to rap.
(emphasis mine)
Nobody was proposing such a thing; unfortunately for us, human psychology and socialization is
not that simple, and I think that's what people in this thread fail to grasp.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
Becasue everyone here complaining are all obviously paragons of morality and have solved all the other problems plaguing America and this one is the last one left.
We all have faults, and we all engage in immoral acts at times-- does that mean that we're prohibited from speaking out against that which we perceive to be harmful to society? Seems a lofty standard to hold to for mere criticism. So I guess only Jesus Christ is in any position to criticize or make social commentary, since only He's perfect? :lol Come now-- you're smarter than this.
As for having solved "all the other problems" of society, well, no, we haven't. But I've personally spoken out
whenever I've perceived an injustice or detrimental state of affairs, and
many other people are similarly consistent in their views. Just because everything's not all roses does
not mean that we are not allowed to criticize things, and our criticism carries
no less weight because of it.
If you disagree, then please explain to me precisely
why people must:
A) be perfectly virtuous themselves before addressing social issues that may or may not affect them directly, but which definitely affect
all of society in some way.
B) have solved
all the problems in society before they focus on a specific one (not only is this untenable, but begs the question: who decides what the "last problem standing" should be? Tommie Hu$tle? Loki? After all,
someone's sensibilities are going to be offended, since their "pet problem" that they didn't want anyone to criticize until
all other problems were solved will, in fact, be dealt with
prior to our solving of
all of society's problems. Oh teh noes!
)
What you're saying is pretty much indefensible from a logical standpoint. If you want to make the more limited (and sensible) statement that rap music gets undue flak from the media considering the amount of, and gravity of, society's other problems, then that's an idea I can get behind, because I do agree with that. Too often, the media focuses on rap music and turns a blind eye to other social ills, both within the inner-city and in society at large. It is often vociferous in its condemnation of rap music, but muted in its criticism of other entertainment and other issues-- I can see that and appreciate that. But that is a
long way from what you're saying above.
DarienA said:
GTA:SA is rated mature for a f'n reason. It starts with the family, fuckers.
Again, unless you're going to start sterilizing people until they're married, have a stable job, and have no drug or alcohol problems, I'd say that we need to address BOTH the state of the family in our society as well as our culture and its products (GTA, rap music, and, yes, Britney fucking Spears-- happy?
). It may start with the family, but it certainly doesn't end there; since over 40% of children live in single-parent households, I'd say it behooves us to examine that which affects people, which includes entertainment. More long-term, systemic reform (of the family, of society etc.) will obviously take longer to get a grip on, but it should be attacked as well. I'm not arguing in a vacuum here, as if rap = bad and everything else = benign. No.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
I don't care if they are helping or hurting. I see rap as I see all forms of entertainment. It is all escapism
Well, you
should care, since it undoubtedly has a deleterious effect on society. There are no two ways about it. People like you or I can look at rap as "escapism" and mindless fun, and remain relatively unaffected by it ("relatively"-- as I said, it affects us all in some way), but that's because of how we were raised (which includes both family AND environment). Why should we champion something that has a corrosive influence on society just because
we were fortunate enough to have stable upbringings? Seems counterintuitive imo-- if we were brought up "correctly", we should strive to see that
others are brought up correctly, and that includes addressing
both the family and the environment (of which music/entertainment is an integral part).
DarienA said:
it does start in the family because a strong family establishes core values of right and wrong, good and bad. A strong family establishes the difference between the fantasy portrayed via music, movies and videogames vs. real life.
That's what a real family does.
Because I grew up in a strong family I can watch violent moves, I can play violent videogames, and I can listen to violent music... and not be fazed by them, because I know the difference between all of that(fantasy) and what I do when I get up in the morning(reality)
Again, that's great-- me too, actually. But can we address
the world we actually live in rather than a hypothetical world where everyone has a loving, stable family and is not surrounded by drugs and violence? Because in the world
I'm living in, a third of children are born illegitimately, and many thousands more are living in unstable/abusive households (drug/alcohol abuse, negligent parents etc.), or single-parent households (due to divorce). Thanks-- I'll be waiting.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
Good job there comparing rap music to the biggest disater in modern history.
Obviously you can't compare the two, but I'd say that the state of our inner cities (with their millions of residents) is, in fact, one of the biggest disasters in history. How the wealthiest nation on earth could allow one segment of society to fall so into disrepair and disrepute while the rest of society prospers is, imo, a
disgrace. To have allowed a perpetual underclass to develop in the midst of affluence is a
disgrace. How many hundreds of thousands of people have died in the inner city as a result of starvation, overdoses, and murder over the decades? Many more than were victims of that tsunami, I'll tell you that much.
It's
always tragic when people die-- it does nobody any good to try and minimize the plight of one group of people by comparing it to the plight of another. They are both tragic, though they're tragic for different reasons. One of these tragedies can be remedied, by and large; natural disasters will be with us forever. And so it is incumbent upon us to take sensible steps to fix the problems in our society; this is how I see it.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
So do Hollywood actors, and CEO, and Presidents, and individual investors why should the giving be restricted to rappers? Positive change in the Black community benifits everyone not just the Black community. So everyone should be giving.
You're
absolutely right; unfortunately, we live in a materialistic, gluttonous society, where even people who make $50M per year feel that it's "not enough". :lol Charity, propriety, and good sense are not values that are being inculcated in the populace.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
If anything I can admire how they made money in the entertainment industry. The stories are all fluff to make you buy it.
Really? So the next time I hear of an assault as a result of a "rap dispute", or some rapper killing someone, or caught selling/using drugs, can I tell the newspaper that it's all "fluff to make people buy the records"? Fact is, many of these people still engage in depraved conduct even AFTER they've achieved success, and that's because one's modes of thinking and behavior are not so easily changed once the "reinforcing stimuli" are removed (i.e., when they live in an environment where there is no insufficiency, violence etc.). This goes to my very point in this thread, actually...
Tommie Hu$tle said:
As it has been said before the weakened family structure is the root cause of problems in the Black community.
And, for the
billionth time, root cause !=
only cause.
Period.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
I like rap, I like porn, I like violent movies. I like entertainment and I see it as entertainment I don't look for deeper meaning in entertainment. Entertainment is for entertaining me. I think people look foolish when they try to blame entertainment for the ills of society when entertainment is only one distraction from the daily grind of society.
This is a silly mentality to have. Few people really "looks for deeper meaning" in their entertainment, or consciously says "hey, I'm gonna do what this song/videogame tells me to do!" And, as I noted earlier, you
do realize that
anything can be "entertaining" based on how you're habituated, right? One's tastes are as much a developed thing as any other aspect of our behavior and attitudes. The exception is that human beings seem to desire to see a certain measure of violence, however graphically (think: the Sopranos)/non-graphically (think: old westerns) it may be depicted, and this is possibly a result of our need to have some sort of cathartic release for our subconscious impulses (which are constantly being restrained by society). However, it's a matter of degree: though we'll always have "violent" entertainment, I don't think it has to be as graphic, or as senseless in context (e.g., killing someone because they looked at you wrong versus killing them because they're trying to kill you), as it is today. In other words, these feral impulses are things to be tempered, not reveled in or indulged.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
Anything you experience has an effect. It's all about how you process it
Thank you.
The problem is that sometimes one's environment
alters one's critical faculties, causing them to process things improperly; besides, the process I'm alluding to is a
gradual one, and is largely unconscious-- you should keep that in mind. It's been demonstrated time and time again, both in academia as well as in real life.
Tommie Hu$tle said:
The flaw in this rap argument is that it gives the apperance that the black community for whatever reason is intellectually incapable of processing these images as entertainment
I don't think that's what it's saying at all-- at least I know that
I'm not saying that. This (the effect of entertainment/culture on our perceptions and attitudes) is a
human problem, not strictly a black one. Whites have been shown to be subject to the same suggestibility/malleability as blacks due to entertainment, both in studies and in real life. My personal view is that given similar conditions, most people will react similarly, though you'll always have the exceptions, just as there are exceptions
now within the black community-- kids who've come from broken homes and have grown up in the most terrible environments imaginable yet manage to be successful and decent human beings. This is a credit to their fortitude and resilience; it
doesn't mean that everything is peachy, however, or that we should not seek positive change.
Anyone who thinks that it's "only blacks" who'd be affected in the manner they have been due to these social afflictions is smoking crack, plain and simple.
I sincerely hope that I've spoken to people's arguments and wasn't too abrasive.
I
also sincerely hope that the people who are telling me that entertainment/the media/the environment has
no effect (or a negligible effect) on one's ideals/attitudes/behaviors will desist with this nonsense at once-- please go read some psychology/sociology journals before you make such statements. It's an
entirely untenable stance to hold, and is akin to someone in this day and age maintaining that the earth is flat. You guys shouldn't embarrass yourselves like that. I'm not naming names, though...
