NYT - How (SPOILER) and (SPOILER) Were Re-created for Rogue One

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Syriel

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Seriously. If you haven't seen Rogue One, stop now.

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Ok, then. The NYT has a great interview that jumps into how Tarkin was modeled for Rogue One, what went right and what went wrong.

Some snippets below, but you should hit the link and read the entire thing.

But as they revisited the 1977 George Lucas movie that started the “Star Wars” franchise, and gave fresh screen time to some lesser-known heroes and villains, the staffs of Lucasfilm and Industrial Light & Magic faced artistic and technological hurdles: most prominently, using a combination of live action and digital effects to bring back the character Grand Moff Tarkin. This nefarious ally of Darth Vader and commander of the Death Star was played by Peter Cushing, the horror-film actor, who died in 1994.

In doing so, they also waded into a postmodern debate about the ethics of prolonging the life span of a character and his likeness beyond that of the actor who originated the role.

The effects experts and storytellers behind “Rogue One” (which was directed by Gareth Edwards and written by Chris Weitz and Tony Gilroy) say they have given careful thought to these issues and were guided by their reverence for this interstellar epic.
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In striving for a balance between a digital figure who seemed real and one who looked precisely like Cushing, the “Rogue One” creators said seemingly minor tweaks could make significant differences — and these details were tinkered with constantly.

For example, the original “Star Wars” film (also known as “A New Hope”) was lit differently than “Rogue One,” raising questions of how to adjust the lighting on the character.

Hal Hickel, an Industrial Light & Magic animation supervisor, said that lighting him “the way he was in ‘A New Hope’ improved his likeness as Tarkin, but it worsened the sense of him being real because then he didn’t look like any of the actors in the scene.”

Side-by-side comparisons of Cushing’s daily footage from “Star Wars” and Mr. Henry’s motion-capture performance also called attention to subtle tics in the original actor’s delivery.
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In her first shot, when Leia is seen from behind (with her trademark hair buns), she is played by a flesh-and-blood actor, Ingvild Deila. Then, in the reverse angle, when Leia is seen from the front, her face, hair and costume are a digital re-creation of Ms. Fisher, based on footage from “A New Hope.” (The character’s extended hand is Ms. Deila’s.)

“To deliver on that moment of hopefulness, that is really underscored by the fact that you do get to see her face,” Ms. Hart said. “That’s the best possible use of effects, to enhance the meaning and the emotion of the experience for the viewer.”

The “Rogue One” filmmakers reviewed the dailies from “Star Wars” and turned up other Easter eggs to add to their movie. They included unused footage of the X-Wing fighter pilots known as Red Leader (Drewe Henley) and Gold Leader (Angus MacInnes), who help wage the rebels’ attack on the Death Star.

(Some of that original film, Mr. Knoll said, was “somewhat underexposed,” requiring some digital repair work. The actors were then transferred by rotoscope from that footage and inserted into computer-generated cockpits for “Rogue One.”)

Mr. Knoll said he did not come across a “vast gold mine” of footage that Mr. Lucas did not use. “George was pretty economical in the way he shot the films originally,” Mr. Knoll said. “When he was happy with a performance, he’d go, ‘All right — I got it.’”
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Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/27/movies/how-rogue-one-brought-back-grand-moff-tarkin.html?_r=1
 
Tarkin looked alright, but stilted. Leia was horrible. Avatar looked way better and that movie came out, what, 7 years ago? How they couldn't get the animation nor lighting right was a real head scratcher.
 
I thought the Leia CGI was great, and didn't get all the criticism. It helped that it was so brief.

Tarkin....was fine. Should've kept him in the window reflection during his first scene with Krennic and maybe showed him more olbscured by shadow after. It was serviceable but looked noticeably like CGI with so many direct close ups of him emoting. Just plasticy and a little surreal- not quite Cushing but so close that you obviously knew who he was. When he wasn't talking it looked alright.

Admirable though, and it's impossible to tell an original Death Star story without Tarkin imo. His "you may fire when ready" was welcome.
 
As always, the problem with CGI characters is that they get over-animated. They keep moving the eyes and the head and the mouth for fear of looking lifeless, and they all end up looking like cartoons. I think they should have let it be seen only from reflection.
Still an impressive work by the way, and very interesting article.
 
Tarkin looked great imo but Leia looked terrible.
He only looked a bit off when an actual human was right there next to him in a shot.

Leia's eyes looked way out of place with the face and it almost looked like a makeup and cg touch up over current Leia.
 
Just to get ahead of it before the thread goes off the fucking rails in yet another CG shitpost fest from all the CG experts:

No drive-by random "looks obviously fake" short posts. If you had issues with how the characters looked, give your reasoning and an actual explanation.

The last thing the forum needs is yet another "so fake" "I thought it was fine" "well ur blind dummy" sort of "debate" for the umpteenth time.
 
I mean it is definitely interesting and impressive with the methods and techniques used to create such an effect. Yet sadly alongside other actors the CGI was too distracting, there was something that wasn't quite settling in where my brain knew it wasn't Peter Cushing or Carrie Fisher on screen. Can't really place my finger on what tho.
 
I've still only seen the film once, but I thought Tarkin was pretty decent for the most part. That said, I wouldn't have minded at all if they'd just used Guy Henry as he was. He looks pretty similar to Peter Cushing anyway and he's a great actor.

I'm glad Tarkin played a big role though. Krennic and Tarkin's rivalry is one of my favourite aspects of the film, especially after reading Catalyst.
 
they're too enamored with this tech and it's just not there yet. it would have been better if the use of Tarkin was a bit more restrained, but they kept zooming in on him like crazy.
 
I feel like, if they really want to bring these characters back, they should just cast new actors instead of using CG to try to bring back the original actors from the dead.
 
Tarkin was super impressive, but I do think there was something about the way it animated that made it seem...weird.

I think there might be something to what's mentioned above, they over animated the face to stop it from looking lifeless but they actually end up highlighting that it's CG because it starts to look unnatural.

Leia wasn't very good. They should have just kept to the back shot and maybe show her holding the tape and saying it's hope.

Still, the tech is incredible. Given a few more years, it'll be perfect.
 
hosannainexcelsis said:
I feel like, if they really want to bring these characters back, they should just cast new actors instead of using CG to try to bring back the original actors from the dead.
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They actually cover this to some degree in the full article.

If “Star Wars” films are still made in 50 or 100 years, Mr. Knoll said audiences would probably not see likenesses of Mark Hamill or Harrison Ford playing Luke Skywalker or Han Solo. (He noted that the actor Alden Ehrenreich had already been cast to play the young Han Solo in a coming film about that character.)

“We’re not planning on doing this digital re-creation extensively from now on,” Mr. Knoll said. “It just made sense for this particular movie.”
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Yeesh, those incomplete Tarkin shots look like corpses.

“We’re not planning on doing this digital re-creation extensively from now on,” Mr. Knoll said. “It just made sense for this particular movie.”
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I'll bet money there'll be a CG Obi-wan in VIII, and they'll use force ghost effects to make it look decent.
 
man, it's crazy to see the different opinions on this.

Personally I thought Tarkin looked a bit rough at times but was still pretty good.

Leia on the other hand I thought looked fucking flawless. The entire theater gasped both times I saw it on opening weekend.
 
XiaNaphryz said:
Just to get ahead of it before the thread goes off the fucking rails in yet another CG shitpost fest from all the CG experts:

No drive-by random "looks obviously fake" short posts. If you had issues with how the characters looked, give your reasoning and an actual explanation.

The last thing the forum needs is yet another "so fake" "I thought it was fine" "well ur blind dummy" sort of "debate" for the umpteenth time.
Click to expand...

My problem is that the characters were obviously CG. The whole movie did great fooling my mind that what I was seeing was actually real. Very few times did I see a character, ship, or locale and think "this is obviously a digital recreation." The very moment I saw Leia, i felt nothing but disgust. Tarkin didn't move or feel like a real person either. It was distracting to every scene they were in.

Theor voices were spot on, but the characters themselves were horrible. Should have kept them obscured for maxmimum effect. That, or ask whoever did Benjamin Buttons or Avatar for help.
 
I spent every scene with Tarkin scrutinizing the CG. I thought it was really well done, but did feel slightly off to me (same as young RDJ in Civil war and Clue in Tron Legacy). My brother didn't know it was CG and was surprised when I told him afterwards.

Anyways, my point is I think someone not realizing it's CG if they didn't know beforehand is a pretty good measure of quality.
 
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Star-Wars-Tarkin-Vader.jpg


They did a decent job and I liked having Tarkin in another Star Wars film but there is still some way to go. Also the Rogue One Tarkin performance wise didn't quite feel like Peter Cushing either.
 
I thought Tarkin looked amazing. A few moments of uncanny valley, but damn if they aren't getting close to digital recreation that can fool an unsuspecting eye.
 
I really don't think I'd be able to tell either Tarkin or Leia was fake if I didn't know anything about the series/had it spoiled for me going in to it.

Leia in particular looked amazing and I question the people who said they could immediately tell how flawed she was without even knowing it was CG.

Also that far right Tarkin pic lmfao
 
I thought Tarkin was really well done actually. I didn't even realize it was CG until about half way through his first scene and it was mostly because I was paying close attention and trying to figure out if it was CG or a real actor with prosthetics. Still need to ask my girlfriend if she noticed. The CG Leia was more jarring to me which is crazy considering how short that footage was. Movement was all off.
 
MikeDown said:
I mean it is definitely interesting and impressive with the methods and techniques used to create such an effect. Yet sadly alongside other actors the CGI was too distracting, there was something that wasn't quite settling in where my brain knew it wasn't Peter Cushing or Carrie Fisher on screen. Can't really place my finger on what tho.
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I think part of that is that if you're a fan you knew he was dead. So your mind just went into a sort of "this isn't right" loop. Combine that with the lighting challenges and there was just enough for fans to notice.

People who weren't familiar with the actor didn't seem to have the same issue as they didn't know he was deceased and just accepted him as another character. I mean, we nitpick effects all the time on forums, but look at the sheer number of things that viewers just don't notice on first viewing (Spider-Man swinging and the whole hair in the wrong direction bit).

What stood out for me in the interview was the comment about how until they got his facial tics down, he didn't look like Cushing, so much as one of Cushing's relatives. It makes you wonder how many little bits need to be mastered to craft a perfect animated replica.
 
Tarkin looked great, probably the highest standard I've seen yet

Leia could have been improved though, she definitely gave off the uncanny valley vibe
 
Babylon 5 Season 1 space scenes look like PS1 CG, not this. C'mon.

Having no knowledge ahead of time that either would show up, I felt like Tarkin was a net win, while I'm still not sure if showing Leia's face was the right move. It's certainly impressive, but still ever-so-slightly off ina way that can be disconcerting.
 
I wish they had gotten deeper into this bit:

In doing so, they also waded into a postmodern debate about the ethics of prolonging the life span of a character and his likeness beyond that of the actor who originated the role.​

Like. We couldn't get a statement from SAG or anything? How is the Academy going to handle awards? How does crediting work? They probably can't say exactly how much Peter Cushing's estate got paid but I'd love some ballpark. Do we have any actors (and lawyers) putting into their wills explicit prohibitions against this kind of thing?
 
I've to say I thought the CG was super impressive. Could you see it? Yes. But not so much that it took me or me finacée out of the movie.
 
autumnleaf said:
They did a decent job and I liked having Tarkin in another Star Wars film but there is still some way to go. Also the Rogue One Tarkin performance wise didn't quite feel like Peter Cushing either.
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The performance is nothing like what Cushing did in ANH, he's so much more active in that film, in R1 he barely moves, his eyes and lips especially. Cushing used his whole body, he had amazing body language. All of that was just not in R1.
 
I thought the recreations were fine for the initial shots where they were used. They were good enough that the characters were instantly recognizable.

The problems came when:

- Tarkin got way too much screen time and way too many lines. That actor doesn't sound especially like Peter Cushing, and it started to become more and more obvious each time he showed up. And his facial animations are a bit artificial-looking and exaggerated, bringing it into the uncanny valley. He was effective in the scene where he assumes control of the station from Krennic and didn't need to be present at all for the rest of the film.

- Leia's line sounds like what it is: an archived recording. Match that with the same issues with facial animations, and you get an illusion that's totally broken the moment she speaks. Her being featured so briefly definitely helped.

- Both representations ended up being faces illuminated by fake light alongside a bunch of faces illuminated by real light. This was very distracting.
 
Fury451 said:
This didn't help, that's for sure. The voice actor was fine (and I believed he has portrayed Tarkin elsewhere), but the script delivery wasn't there for Tarkin.
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Pretty sure Guy Henry did the motion capture and voice performance. You're probably thinking of Stephen Stanton who voiced Tarkin in The Clone Wars and Rebels. Stanton sounds more like Cushing to me.
 
KeyBladerXIII said:
Yeesh, those incomplete Tarkin shots look like corpses.

I'll bet money there'll be a CG Obi-wan in VIII, and they'll use force ghost effects to make it look decent.
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Those are different passes, i.e GI, Spec, reflection, refraction, SSS, AO etc etc that all get composited to produce the final render.
 
I'm rewatching RO later this week with my father, I wonder if he'll notice anything.

When I went with friends we all agreed that they did a pretty good job. From memory I thought Leia was incredible, but Tarkin was more noticeable because they used him a lot more and even had some close shots iirc. They definitely went all-in on him.
 
I do find it interesting how many people feel opposite about Tarkin and Leia though (feeling one felt fine while the other wasn't). Curious why that is.
 
i had no idea the first guy was CGi. Lea looked great too. So hot. Give me VR pron now please. Make Dreams come true.
 
WadiumArcadium said:
Pretty sure Guy Henry did the motion capture and voice performance. You're probably thinking of Stephen Stanton who voiced Tarkin in The Clone Wars and Rebels.
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Oh, maybe. For some reason I thought he was reprising the role here. On that note, something was off about Vader's voice too, and not because of JEJ's age. Like it wasn't modulated correctly or something.

GuitarAtomik said:
I do find it interesting how many people feel opposite about Tarkin and Leia though (feeling one felt fine while the other wasn't). Curious why that is.
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Same. My opinion is so far the opposite direction with what I've seen because to me Leia looked seamless and Tarkin stood out.
 
All the photos I've seen online of the two look bad for trying to pass as reality. High-end CG, sure, but not convincing enough. They look like characters out of Final Fantasy Kingsglaive.
 
AlteredBeast said:
My problem is that the characters were obviously CG. The whole movie did great fooling my mind that what I was seeing was actually real. Very few times did I see a character, ship, or locale and think "this is obviously a digital recreation." The very moment I saw Leia, i felt nothing but disgust. Tarkin didn't move or feel like a real person either. It was distracting to every scene they were in.

Theor voices were spot on, but the characters themselves were horrible. Should have kept them obscured for maxmimum effect. That, or ask whoever did Benjamin Buttons or Avatar for help.
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Benjamin Button and Avatar looked far more CG to me than Rogue One.

That said, everyone has a different eye for these sorts of things. For many people, especially industry folks, we'll always spot digital characters when there's closeups.

Your comment about Tarkin moving seems off though - the body would still be the live action actor. It's the shoulders and up that were digital. Unless you specifically meant his head and facial animations.

Ultimately, the quality is restricted by the schedule. ILM would be able to improve those shots immensely if given the time and budget. That never happens though. Given their usual time constraints and all the other shows they have at any given time, it's pretty damn good work.

sixteen-bit said:
Would it be hyperbolic to day Silent Hill 3 oldman.gif blew Tarkin away?
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Depends, are you saying dropping the SH3 guy as-is into a live action film would be significantly better?
 
Fury451 said:
Oh, maybe. For some reason I thought he was repricing the role here. On that note, something was off about Vader's voice too, and not because of JEJ's age. Like it wasn't modulated correctly or something.
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It kinda blew my mind when I realized James Earl Jones is still alive and that Ian McWhatever was the emperor in the OT too
 
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