broncobuster
Banned
The illusion holds up well enough until they speak. Something about the lip movement and elasticity of the face, with Rogue One and other instances, there's something slightly off, slightly loose about it. It's hard to explain.
NYT - How (SPOILER) and (SPOILER) Were Re-created for Rogue One
- Thread starter Syriel
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If I was an actor, the idea that this could happen would be really cool and appealing to me.
Nice attempts, but I could tell. Both Tarkin and Leia were too detailed. They stuck out against the softer real human faces. Th lighting on faces didn't match the room or lighting on other human faces. I know it was motion captured, but the mouth animation and eyes were off somehow for me.
Don't get me wrong, they were not terrible. Nice step in the right direction. But the uncanny valley was still there for me.
Don't get me wrong, they were not terrible. Nice step in the right direction. But the uncanny valley was still there for me.
WadiumArcadium
Member
JEJ actually sounded better than I expected after Rebels. There's a noticeable difference but I was pretty happy overall.
Avatar had giant furry blue cat people in a hyper colourful and bright environment. There's far less uncanny valley issues when you're making something that has no analog to real life than there is when you're actually trying to replicate a real person, especially one with a prior performances. The two are not even comparable at all.
Dio Brando
Banned
The only real problem I had with tarkin was his mouth animation. Looked over animated /forced. Leia was totally fine. The briefness of the scene helped a lot.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
This is a really fucking weird thing to say on today of all days.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I kind of feel like the ethics bit is overblown. As long as you have the go ahead from the estate, the actor didn't specifically say they don't want people reuse their image that way, or the use is obviously completely at odds with what the actor stood for in some way, I don't see the problem. It's not like people are going to be using the technique haphazardly. The shit is too expensive to use it that way.
I'd say age (of the actors) makes a difference. Cushing was old, so getting his face right is harder with all the wrinkles and details. Contrast this with Fisher, who's very young with perfect skin... Probably a bit easier to do in cgi.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
It is SO hard to describe what is was that immediately made him uncanny to me. The subtlety of human emotion being lost or unnatural here? The glow of his skin? I can't put it together, but I found it jarring and obvious.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I didn't realise it was cgi until the majority of the film, I just thought it was a really good lookalike
Reagan's BR
Banned
Hopefully things arranged such that they can replace both faces with better versions as the technology improves for a future "special edition".
Was very impressed by the work as whole. Not perfect but incredible how far the technology has come.
Was very impressed by the work as whole. Not perfect but incredible how far the technology has come.
CloudyTuba
Member
The lighting thing did occur to me when I saw the movie. Most people who remember Tarkin remember him in ANH lighting, which makes him look different in R1. I was considering if this was the reason why people unfamiliar with him don't even notice the CG, while fans notice it right away. There's a mental context there that makes placing him in new lighting difficult.
When I use the flatter skin render to apply less reflective, more even ANH style lighting to the final render, it suddenly looks more familiar:
(Final left, edit right)
Did they strike the right balance with the finished product or should they have tinted his appearance more toward how he is remembered?
After making that edit, the final Tarkin looks a little too shiny and the one on the right more realistic to my eye. However he might not match the scene lighting as well anymore.
When I use the flatter skin render to apply less reflective, more even ANH style lighting to the final render, it suddenly looks more familiar:
(Final left, edit right)
Did they strike the right balance with the finished product or should they have tinted his appearance more toward how he is remembered?
After making that edit, the final Tarkin looks a little too shiny and the one on the right more realistic to my eye. However he might not match the scene lighting as well anymore.
GuitarAtomik
Member
That's what I would have thought, but I was more convinced with Tarkin. CG Leia just moved wrong and it immediately felt wrong to me. I think it's interesting how divided the opinion on who looked more real is.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
Leia got a laugh from my theatre. I'm not a huge star war guy so I didn't actually register that tarkin wasn't real as I barely recall him at all from the old movies.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol damn. totally skipped my mind.
though i guess there is a silver lining here. cgi tech has reached a point where the character she created can live on forever.
I find it a bit unfortunate how the Tarkin/Leia debate overshadows what a specatacular job the film makers did with Red and Gold Leader. If they hadn't reworked lines from ANH that only super fans like me who have watched it 100 times would remember, I would have had no idea how they had done it. Not only was the added effects work flawless, but the fact that they blended in to the movie so well is a testament to how good the film's environments and costumes were at recreating the original star wars style.
CopperPuppy
Member
I agree. I think it looked great but, at the end of the day, the performance called to mind Charles Dance rather than Peter Cushing. Odd, I know, but for some reason that's what my brain kept registering. In any event, I applaud their decision to include Tarkin in the film and to take such a detail-oriented approach in an attempt to get it right. It worked for me, as did Leia.
I'm guessing one may be swayed by detail, the other by animation? It's just so hard to get right. I'm glad they didn't go overboard with it tbh, and kept Leia's cameo a one-liner.
Okay, you win.
GuitarAtomik
Member
It's funny. While watching it, the audio sounded so classic that it kind of crossed my mind that they were doing something like that, but I mostly thought "Damn! They recreated the radio chatter feel perfectly.". I would have never realized they had spliced in some old footage/audio if it hadn't been mentioned later.
nhlducks35
Member
Damn, I'm loving this dlc pack:
You got Grand Moff Tarkin, Funeral Director Tarkin, Nuclear fallout survivor Tarkin, Zombie Tarkin, and Just fuck my shit up fam Tarkin
Jack Scofield
Member
Damn, I'm loving this dlc pack:
You got Grand Moff Tarkin, Funeral Director Tarkin, Nuclear fallout survivor Tarkin, Zombie Tarkin, and Just fuck my shit up fam Tarkin
Someone needs to photoshop the Assassin's Creed Remastered face into this photo.
I wonder just how much their decision to put Rogue One lighting on Tarkin and Leia influenced how different they looked to what my mind expected. I'd love to see a version of Tarkin's scenes in which they used the ANH lighting.
Regardless it was a fantastic piece of work and makes me excited to think of the possibilities going forward (where appropriate and meaningful of course).
Regardless it was a fantastic piece of work and makes me excited to think of the possibilities going forward (where appropriate and meaningful of course).
Agreed on all counts. They really should have just had most of his scenes either over hologram to mask the CGI or using clever use of shadow and reflections.
They really bit off a bit more than they could chew and what we got is distracting and uncanny.
Just because something is clearly cgi doesn't mean it isn't also incredibly impressive. Both Leia and Tarkin were phenomenal examples of cgi human faces. Some people are just impossible to please though and will whine about everything till the universe implodes.
Captain Zyrain
Member
The first time I saw it I didn't know he was CGI, I thought they found someone who looked a lot like him + makeup.
The 2nd time, after finding out it was CGI.. I scrutinized it a lot more and saw a lot of flaws/CGI issues.. but only because I was really paying attention to it.
The first time I saw it I was so blown away by everything it didn't pull me out of it.
The Leia scene looked 'off' to me the first time though, but better the 2nd. so who knows.
I liked both, and was glad they were included.
The 2nd time, after finding out it was CGI.. I scrutinized it a lot more and saw a lot of flaws/CGI issues.. but only because I was really paying attention to it.
The first time I saw it I was so blown away by everything it didn't pull me out of it.
The Leia scene looked 'off' to me the first time though, but better the 2nd. so who knows.
I liked both, and was glad they were included.
I was feeling that uncanny valley feeling with Tarkin because he was constantly in motion - shoulders shrugging, head shaking, dipping in and out of smirks, like a human being possessed by spiders. The real actor didnt seem like he was trying to escape his own skin.
Leia was OK to me because it was seriously like half a second, she seemed a little saccharine and O_O but it didn't creep me out like Tarkin.
Leia was OK to me because it was seriously like half a second, she seemed a little saccharine and O_O but it didn't creep me out like Tarkin.
Justin Bailey
------ ------
They did a good job with Tarkin I thought, but I still got distracted. It went like this for me --
Oh wow didn't realize he was still alive.
Wait, he was old in the original, no way he looks like that still.
Oh they did a good job with the CGI on the actor's face.
Wait, he's gotta be dead. Holy shit that's a CGI character.
Unfortunately, once I realized that I was in the uncanny valley at that point and it became a bit distracting, but nothing serious. It helped that his scenes were low-lighting.
Leia though, it was too much. I think the lighting was too bright on her face and I saw the "plastic" look too easily.
However, my GF had NO IDEA Tarkin was a CGI character, and thought the Lea scene was unused footage. So I think they set out what they were trying to accomplish for the most part.
Oh wow didn't realize he was still alive.
Wait, he was old in the original, no way he looks like that still.
Oh they did a good job with the CGI on the actor's face.
Wait, he's gotta be dead. Holy shit that's a CGI character.
Unfortunately, once I realized that I was in the uncanny valley at that point and it became a bit distracting, but nothing serious. It helped that his scenes were low-lighting.
Leia though, it was too much. I think the lighting was too bright on her face and I saw the "plastic" look too easily.
However, my GF had NO IDEA Tarkin was a CGI character, and thought the Lea scene was unused footage. So I think they set out what they were trying to accomplish for the most part.
I was super unimpressed with it coming from the hype it had. It was impossible to masquerade de cgi as if it was a real person. It was glossy and without the appropiate weight a physical body provides.
De aging Kurt Russel for Tron 2 was a much more impressive effect for instance. While I understand the challenges of having to recreate someone from scratch as opposing to clever make up and cg around someone it still ends up as a lack luster implementation of what they wanted to achieve.
Plus they totally slimmed Carrie Fisher's cheeks that was all that was left of her after being forced to attend a fat camp before ANH.
De aging Kurt Russel for Tron 2 was a much more impressive effect for instance. While I understand the challenges of having to recreate someone from scratch as opposing to clever make up and cg around someone it still ends up as a lack luster implementation of what they wanted to achieve.
Plus they totally slimmed Carrie Fisher's cheeks that was all that was left of her after being forced to attend a fat camp before ANH.
Tarkin was flat out a bad decision. He took me way out of it. I don't think I got a single thing from the first conversation with him in the movie because I was busy WTFing at his movement. He really didn't move like a real human. It felt over exaggerated like a Pixar movie or something. They really should have had him facing the camera maybe for a second or two and stuck to the reflections and maybe a hologram or two.
Leia was fine since it was just a second or two.
Leia was fine since it was just a second or two.
it's technically impressive, but it also can be very distracting in scenes where you're supposed to be immersed in the movie. this tech is advancing fast and storytellers can benefit from it, but there also needs to be awareness of the limitations.
Tarkin was impressive, but it would have been better if they didn't go so overboard by having so many scenes and close-ups with the character. We're not yet at the point where a cgi human face is 100% convincing.
Knuckle Sandwich
Member
I thought they were both pretty bad but Tarkin was way worse and super distracting because he was used so much. The feller in the white cape shoulda had most of Tarkin's time I think and then just have Tarkin appear briefly like Leia.
Psychoward
Banned
Linked my gf this article, she's in shock because she thought the Leia segment was just a deleted clip from ANH lol
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
This is the first time I've actually heard this complaint, I've mostly been hearing the opposite and people thinking her face was too rounded.
demosthenes
Member
Hahaha, get out of here with that rubbish.
Chuck Norris
Banned
The lighting was very jarring, the CGI model was lit completely differently than the other actors on screen which was a bizarre choice
All they really had to do was match up the lighting and it would have looked 1000 times better
All they really had to do was match up the lighting and it would have looked 1000 times better
Aaron Strife
Banned
brochiller
Member
What human was CG in Avatar? If you're talking about the blue aliens, that's apples to oranges. For all we know as viewers, the way the Navii are in Avatar are the way they actually look. There is no uncanny valley because they aren't human and we don't have a point of reference about what they should look like.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Unless you're talking about for the time, I totally disagree. Hell, even for the time I'd disagree.
It's not that easy. Peter Cushing died long before he could've known this would even be possible, so of course he didn't specifically say he didn't want it done.
And we can say "it'll be rare!" all we want but that isn't really relevant. If Carrie Fisher had died even six months earlier, you think they'd hesitate to use digi-Leia in Episode VIII?
Had to tell my sister that the character was CG (for obvious reasons). When I have heard expressed thoughts on the use of CG, the end goal is just to be transported into the world without a care for the technology used to make it, Rogue One achieved it.
Tarkin has a couple of iffy shots but overall it's much better than dancing around a major character who should be there and participating. My girlfriend had no idea he was CG, she thought his makeup was just "off" in a few shots. It seems to have been a very convincing effect and performance for most people.
I don't know why people keep calling Leia CG when she's not. She's a real actress with footage of Carrie Fisher from the original film digitally composited over her face. Leia was not a CG creation any more than Gold and Red Leader were.
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