TURMOIL AT DHS AND STATE DEPARTMENT THERE ARE PEOPLE LITERALLY CRYING IN THE OFFICE HERE; https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30...e-people-literally-crying-in-the-office-here/
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NYT: Refugees and immigrants being detained at US airports right now.
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MikeHaggar
Member
This is all so crazy. I'm literally frightened. I've never felt afraid of my own government before. I pray that somehow this all comes to an end quickly.
uncredited male
Member
They always go for the jpegs for some reason.
Its been interesting to watch my family sorta implode over this shit. My mom is Iranian and her whole family bounced during the revolution in the 70s. Most of them for better or worse are pretty Pro-Shah and Pro-America and have been treated like shit for their entire time here. I would go pickup my grandma from the airport when she was getting back from visiting family in the UK and the TSA would rip her luggage apart throwing it through tons of machines and extreme vetting. This was in 1998 as well before the worst of Islamaphobia began here.
She had a greencard and was a valid resident of the country but if they detained her in an airport for 20 hours I would have been furious. I can entirely understand the fear and anger people are feeling. My hillfolk(apalachian american) side of the family is having a hard time reconciling the fact hat if my grandmother was still alive she easily could have been caught up in this and my Iranian side of the family who very much so hate the current Iranian government are trying to justify the reason that can't safely leave the country and come back without being harassed as being worth the cost. IRONICALLY its my hillfolk family that are easier to persuade that the situation is fucked since they don't have as strongly negative feelings towards the Iranian government where as my Iranian family are deflecting how fucked up this is and saying its all Iran's fault.
She had a greencard and was a valid resident of the country but if they detained her in an airport for 20 hours I would have been furious. I can entirely understand the fear and anger people are feeling. My hillfolk(apalachian american) side of the family is having a hard time reconciling the fact hat if my grandmother was still alive she easily could have been caught up in this and my Iranian side of the family who very much so hate the current Iranian government are trying to justify the reason that can't safely leave the country and come back without being harassed as being worth the cost. IRONICALLY its my hillfolk family that are easier to persuade that the situation is fucked since they don't have as strongly negative feelings towards the Iranian government where as my Iranian family are deflecting how fucked up this is and saying its all Iran's fault.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
My relatives were on the anti-shah side of the spectrum but I had lots of friends from families like yours and understand that how hard it is to accept there's no great choice. Honestly, the best thing to do is change the establishment rather than go with the lesser evil, although that's not going to be easy and will take years at best.
when people rely on Facebook for news, you know it's fucked up
That's like half the reason we're here in the first place.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Pretty cool pic nonetheless.
This right-leaning "Libertarian" I'm friends with on Facebook constantly spews bullshit about Obama. He just posted a long rant that I don't feel qualified to respond to - because I'm not educated enough on these topics. Does anyone mind retorting what he says so I can respond back? I'm so sick of his shit. Long Facebook rant incoming...
Annoying Facebook friend said:
orthodoxy1095
Banned
What's your problem exactly with what he said?
I won't speak to the domestic side of things, but your friend is right that Obama's foreign policy was a colossal disaster. And he's frankly right about the absurdity of people who refused to combat Obama's excesses now whining after Trump. A microcosm of this could be seen yesterday, when the news came out that Trump's first counterterrorism op in Yemen had ended with a daed soldier and dead civilians. There were actually people who didn't know that we were in Yemen, and who were appalled by the outcome to Trump's order. Which stands in contrast to hardly anyone in the media or in major political circles being willing to hold Obama's feet to the fire for the massive humanitarian disaster that he helped create in Yemen. Most people are probably barely even aware of the actual war crimes that have been conducted with our weapons and by our "allies" there.
Something like half a million children are starving there, and hardly a word was said. This:
Is what has been perpetrated in your name, by your government. And it's disgusting. There are more gruesome photos, but I'll actually spare you. So I'll repeat what I've said before. Fuck Obama, and fuck everyone who was silent about Yemen and other Middle Eastern disasters.
That said, if you want a retort to what he said, here's what I would say:
It also makes me sick to have to stand next to those who kept silent in the face of Obama's excesses. But my ill-feelings towards those people are not really important right now, because our country is under perhaps its gravest existential threat since the the issue of slavery tore it apart some 155 years ago. So at this moment, I will forgive people their past failures, and stand proudly with them against Trump. We need as many allies as we can get, as flawed as they might be.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
They were almost going to deport US citizens. Let that sink in a bit. Holy fucking shit.
I guess my main problem is I'm not sure how factual everything is, and if it is factual if it's worse than what prior presidents have done (Bushs with Iraq, Eisenhower with Vietnam, etc.). Also, as terrible as civilians killed by drones is, are they really worse than sending in soldiers? Especially soldiers who can be mentally unstable and terrorize citizens in their own way?What's your problem exactly with what he said?
I won't speak to the domestic side of things, but your friend is right that Obama's foreign policy was a colossal disaster. And he's frankly right about the absurdity of people who refused to combat Obama's excesses now whining after Trump. A microcosm of this could be seen yesterday, when the news came out that Trump's first counterterrorism op in Yemen had ended with a daed soldier and dead civilians. There were actually people who didn't know that we were in Yemen, and who were appalled by the outcome to Trump's order. Which stands in contrast to hardly anyone in the media or in major political circles being willing to hold Obama's feet to the fire for the massive humanitarian disaster that he helped create in Yemen. Most people are probably barely even aware of the actual war crimes that have been conducted with our weapons and by our "allies" there.
Something like half a million children are starving there, and hardly a word was said. This:
Is what has been perpetrated in your name, by your government. And it's disgusting. There are more gruesome photos, but I'll actually spare you. So I'll repeat what I've said before. Fuck Obama, and fuck everyone who was silent about Yemen and other Middle Eastern disasters.
That said, if you want a retort to what he said, here's what I would say:
It also makes me sick to have to stand next to those who kept silent in the face of Obama's excesses. But my ill-feelings towards those people are not really important right now, because our country is under perhaps its gravest existential threat since the Civil War. So at this moment, I will forgive people their past failures, and stand proudly with them against Trump. We need as many allies as we can get, as flawed as they might be.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
To annoying Facebook friend:
"Over a course of eight years, of which he regrets a lot"
"Trump did it over the course of eight days, and regrets nothing"
"your call"
Also, he's not in the fucking White House. And most of these are Commander-in-Chief things versus being a prick with EO's. I mean, come on. Nobody is calling Obama perfect, but a spade is still a goddamn spade.
"Over a course of eight years, of which he regrets a lot"
"Trump did it over the course of eight days, and regrets nothing"
"your call"
Also, he's not in the fucking White House. And most of these are Commander-in-Chief things versus being a prick with EO's. I mean, come on. Nobody is calling Obama perfect, but a spade is still a goddamn spade.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Does it matter if it's worse?
This is actually where your friend is going wrong too. It doesn't matter "who did more wrong." We're not in grade school. We're not playing the blame game. We stand up to what is wrong and what is unjust wherever it appears. We don't sit around measuring the differences between past offenses .
As to your second question, I'm not really qualified to speak about the differences in collateral damage that soldiers and drones might cause. The problem isn't that we're conducting our own unilateral drone strikes though, that would be bad enough. The problem is that we've been aiding a Saudi-led coalition force there. And that coalition has made a complete disaster of Yemen, put millions on the brink of starving, killed thousands of Yemeni civilians and committed many human rights violations.
None of that means anything. Trump's ban serves no real purpose beyond simply being a ban on Muslim countries he has no direct business ties with. Our vetting process is fine, and there have been no incidents of Americans being killed by any refugees from those countries under the ban. People pointing previous travel bans seem to forget that those travel bans weren't nearly as broad, and had direct evidence to support their existence.
Appreciate the response.
The guy you are responding to and first responded to you is pretty biased, you can see it easily in his post. There are a lot of things in that post you mentioned that is quite debatable.
No.. nothing outdoes Bush's Iraq, which threw U.S into this situation in the first place. Whether we send in drones, use soldiers, or regular airstrikes, there will always be civilian deaths. I do not see a difference in drone strikes and airstrikes.
This is debatable also just because U.S steps out of the Syrian conflict does not mean it will end, that is a proxy war between Suuni and Shia gulf states (Saudi, Qatar, UAE) and Iran and Syria. This also begs the question of if the world should really stop trying to fight until Assad, whose force had butchered so many civilians is out of power.
The is a true statement, especially since there was a surge in illegal immigration, but I am not sure how much Obama has to do with it.
I do not recall this.
Um... The wars in Pakistan and Afghanistan are largely inherited. Pakistan is partly in this situation due to the instability of Afghanistan as well. He is probably one of those people who thinks we should of just bombed and overthrown the Taliban then left as if they won't regain power.
The drone war in Yemen is largely debatable as well, but it should be known U.S isn't the only one in Yemen as if it is unilateral, also U.S is mainly in Yemen for Al Qaeda and with Yemeni government backing.
Is he arguing that we should of left Iraq to it's own devices against ISIL as if we can say "not our problem and not our fault"? That is very stupid.
I can agree with the criticizing of that Patriot Act extension.
I may need to read up more on this, but I don't see the issue with this one. GMOs have been proven to be largely safe. The main people fighting this were organic farmers and anti-GMO people/organizations.
There is a difference between one uses the executive orders to simply curtail legislation and one that have to use the executive orders to get anything done because the legislature won't do anything.
Difference scenarios, so what he is comparing it to, makes him look silly. Also Obama isn't a perfect President, he is nowhere near as progressive as I would have liked, but he is no where near comparable to the idiot we have as a president right now.
The simple thing to say to just leave all that behind is to say that you will fight unjust bullshit wherever and whenever you can wherever and whenever it comes. His needed to compare and say "well why didn't people do this earlier" is nothing short of childishness that distracts from the issues at hand.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I resent being called biased about this, when there's really nothing debatable about Obama's foreign policy, especially in Yemen, being a goddamn travesty. I will never accept opinions contrary to that when there have been literal war crimes committed with our weaponry there. The Saudis are a fucking disgusting regime, and this is just another example, in a long history of examples, of us aiding and abetting their crimes. The lines of the original Facebook critique may certainly be debatable, but the basic thesis that Obama was not held properly accountable for many things is absolutely a fair thing to be upset about with many on the left.
As for this, I didn't bother addressing it in my first post, but this is actually an alleged quote from the book Double Down. As far as I remember, it was never actually disputed.
The reason is basic incompetence
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
btw, this thread about Big Data being used for the election (both Brexit and the US presidential ones, and presumably also upcoming European ones) might be a reason why people's social media are being checked. Not because of their migrant status, but because they're not on the wire-tap, if you will.
Which coincidences with Trump immediate EO on privacy rights for non-citizens, since that effectively circumvents EU data protections if those companies also seek to rig EU elections.
And nobody knows exactly who owns those companies either, btw. Sound familiar?
Which coincidences with Trump immediate EO on privacy rights for non-citizens, since that effectively circumvents EU data protections if those companies also seek to rig EU elections.
And nobody knows exactly who owns those companies either, btw. Sound familiar?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
That's interesting for sure.
Yes. Syrian refugees are banned indefinitely, it is wholly unprecedented, and the green card bit doesn't hold up to the reality of what's actually occurring.
Vicetrailia
Banned
StopMakingSense
Member
Yes, many. The 'but Obama' claims have been debunked several times in this thread. Excuse posters for not bothering to repeat it.
More_Badass
Member
Wrong thread
orthodoxy1095
Banned
The "But Obama..." claim that's really been debunked is the one about Obama's EO on Iraqi refugees.
Ah yes, the reason FDR is considered one of the greatest US presidents in history: he saved the country from radical Jewish terrorism and banned "refugees" from pouring into the country.
The fuck is wrong with these people for thinking that that was a good thing?
edit: regarding annoying friend Facebook post:
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Yeah actually I didn't see that part of the image. That the USA refused to take Jewish refugees is not something we should be touting WTF.
The One and Done
Member
This is absolutely deplorable and embarrassing. To any Muslim affected by this I apologize on behalf of decent Americans who don't thrive on hate.
I can agree with this, but your tone before definitely leads me to believe you are biased on it. There is no such thing as perfect President, but in terms of Presidential standards, Obama was a good one.
U.S was never and have never been a "good guy" you know, it has always done terrible things and justified it's actions when it could. The Iraq War unfortunately expanded all of this shit and made it worse, so I largely blame Bush for many of the issues occurring today as people try to find solutions and unfortunately go the wrong route as they exacerbate it or put band aide solutions on it looking for a "quick fix".
His foreign policy is completely debatable, but you dislike it so much, you do not believe it is. This is the very definition of biased.
As long as people know the difference between Trump and Obama's EO use and understand that past (unjust or just) uses of EOs do not excuse unjust EOs in the future/present, then it is all good.
More_Badass
Member
I mean, no country is a "good guy" or "bad guy"; human nature and history isn't as black and white as that.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I mean if you want me to admit to some partisan bias about this, I won't do that. I'll gladly admit that I have a special bias towards the issue because of the background of many friends who come from places that he's bombed.
Certainly, I've never argued that the USA has been "a good guy," especially not in modernity. Just last night I was pointing out all the terrible times we've fallen short of The New Colossus and spat on immigrants and refugees. We have an unpleasant history for sure. I don't accept that you can just pin all of the Middle East on Bush though either. It's a historical crisis that dates back far longer than him, and even if we wanted to pin modern MENA problems on him, that doesn't absolve Obama of travesties like Yemen.
Like I said, I'll accept that the claims in the post are certainly debatable. I don't really care to hear more arguments about his foreign policy at large though. It's been largely derided by many, and rightfully so in my opinion.
Regardless, the end of my post was really the point. Whatever indiscretions or hypocrisies past presidents or partisans might have had, it's really not relevant right now. There's a resistance to be conducted, and we need every warm body we can find.
CheeseConey
Member
Pankratous
Member
FloydtheFathead
Member
The evidence
smokeandmirrors
Banned
YES THIS FELLOW HOMAN IS I COME PEACE IN NO NEED TO WORRY
I would like to amend my previous expectation of the Muslim registry making an thinly veiled appearance to that of a registry that will allow Trump to put his political opponents (at least those of significance) on it as well.
Trump will shift the imagery more and more towards his opponents being awful and threats to the nation, justifying it to his supporters and those who are still not paying attention. He will then also be able to use being on the registry as 'proof' of the guilt of opponents, and begin jailing them.
As a central figure around whom united and organized opposition could form, I expect Obama will be arrested at some point, whether or not he starts actively supporting protests. Trump might go for Clinton at the same time, at least to help mask what he is doing in the eyes of his supporters, or just eliminate another potential figure for the opposition to rally around.
Trump will take lessons from Putin on rigging future elections to ensure the Democrats do not regain power, and either turn them into a puppet opposition, or disband them entirely.
That this even seems plausible at this point is insane.
Trump will shift the imagery more and more towards his opponents being awful and threats to the nation, justifying it to his supporters and those who are still not paying attention. He will then also be able to use being on the registry as 'proof' of the guilt of opponents, and begin jailing them.
As a central figure around whom united and organized opposition could form, I expect Obama will be arrested at some point, whether or not he starts actively supporting protests. Trump might go for Clinton at the same time, at least to help mask what he is doing in the eyes of his supporters, or just eliminate another potential figure for the opposition to rally around.
Trump will take lessons from Putin on rigging future elections to ensure the Democrats do not regain power, and either turn them into a puppet opposition, or disband them entirely.
That this even seems plausible at this point is insane.
Sen Dianne Feinstein taking the Trump admin to task right now on CNN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HORiDWC5gIo
- Jeff sessions being a yes man
- Unconstitutional Immigration ban
- Trumps petty reactions being alarming and dangerous
- Trump being a danger to women, and reproductive rights.
- Violation of civil liberties
- His support for torture and unlawful imprisonment
- Praising Sally Yates for disobeying the OE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HORiDWC5gIo
- Jeff sessions being a yes man
- Unconstitutional Immigration ban
- Trumps petty reactions being alarming and dangerous
- Trump being a danger to women, and reproductive rights.
- Violation of civil liberties
- His support for torture and unlawful imprisonment
- Praising Sally Yates for disobeying the OE
bringing the truth
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ent-in-us-visa-knockback-20170130-gu1rhy.html
Not even born in the wrong place ...
Not even born in the wrong place ...
The press conference with John Kelly, DHS chief is a perfect example of how Sean Spicer, Kellyanne Conway, et al. should act in front of the media and answering questions. Do not get mad and don't inject your opinion.
Although John Kelly's answers about the EO are scary and shows he won't question the legality or effect on homeland security of Trump's actions.
Although John Kelly's answers about the EO are scary and shows he won't question the legality or effect on homeland security of Trump's actions.
airmangataosenai
Member
The Onion posted another prophetic article ai thunk we all know will get a lot of use over the next 4 years.
http://www.theonion.com/article/tru...tm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
http://www.theonion.com/article/tru...tm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
The MA AG has joined a lawsuit with the ACLU, and our Republican Governor has denounced the EO.
https://twitter.com/MassGovernor/status/826481491362402308/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
https://twitter.com/MassGovernor/status/826481491362402308/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
What Cuban ban?
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