Stereogatari
Banned
Well said. It's the Saudis who have perverted Islam and indirectly caused the current phenomenon of Islamist terrorist idealogy.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Obama: Religion is not responsible for terrorism
- Thread starter Maninthemirror
- Start date
- Status
"But pretending that it isnt actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it."
Also see my second comment for an example of how the Obama administration's lack of understanding the situation almost screwed things up on a massive scale, by trying to get top people from Al Qaeda and ISIS to work together which could have healed the rift between the two groups.
It kind of is a bit.
It's like saying racism isn't responsible for hate crimes.
Is terrorism a natural outcropping of religion? Of course not. Are radical islamists bad representatives of a faith? Of course they are.
But if we can't even talk about religion in this context then we may as well all go home.
It's like saying racism isn't responsible for hate crimes.
Is terrorism a natural outcropping of religion? Of course not. Are radical islamists bad representatives of a faith? Of course they are.
But if we can't even talk about religion in this context then we may as well all go home.
Intheflorsh
Banned
One of the points of the article is that ISIS is more fundamentally linked with Islam than many western leaders seem to understand or acknowledge. It's very relevant to the topic at hand.
timetokill
Banned
No, but it's used as a justification for terrorism, and it's used as a recruiting tool for terrorism, and it's used as a basis for selecting victims of terrorism....
Because Obama fails to use the word radical islam that means he's failing taking ISIS seriously? Was it not Obama who gathered the coalition and launched the first airstrikes on ISIS?
Marauder Shields
Member
But it has nothing to do with religion!
Although tbf these Muslims end up killing plenty of other Muslims as well.
The leaders of European countries with far higher Muslim populations have no problem calling it what it is: radical Islamist terrorism. That is the threat the West faces, there's no point in hiding away from what it actually is.
Title is a bit confrontational. He is not arguing that perhaps some of the 'perversions' don't have religious implications, just that they do not represent an ENTIRE religion. To do so only legitimizes the terrorist groups as a recruiting tool. To keep saying "The Islamic State" implies with voice samples, and documentation that can only be used to recruit more people and likewise imperil other religious minorities who do not side with this terrorist groups from attacks on both sides. The perversion at the heart of this conflict is Islamic, but no more then other more extreme groups who attach themselves to causes just to engage in conflict. We want as many people as possible fighting against this type of extremism no matter the origin, its best not to alienate the very people who are most victimized by this groups acts when we should be rallying them to defend themselves and not legitimize the views of this organization.
JordanN
Banned
You don't need religion to blow yourself up. Sure, it makes it easier if you believe it will send to you heaven, but religion isn't giving you instructions on how to build a bomb and plot out who you kill.
Which part?
That's what I'm wondering. Short of Ground military invasion some words are not going to do anything to ISIS, other than radicalize other people towards peaceful muslims.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Wahabbism started in 18th century not 7th
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Hey when we're trying to show the world that America isn't at war with Islam, maybe we all shouldn't rush to say "you know maybe we should be at war with Islam!!!"
"Obama told The New Yorker that he considered ISIS to be al-Qaedas weaker partner. If a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesnt make them Kobe Bryant, the president said."
That's not taking ISIS nearly as seriously as he should.
Al Qaeda is barely relevant under Ayman al-Zawahiri (militant Islamic groups all over are changing their allegiance to the ISIS caliphate) and Obama thinks they're the Lakers to ISIS' jayvee team.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Yeah, because religious texts aren't flying off the shelves and beating people to death with their covers and pages in a harry potter spell gone wrong, I guess it's not religion's fault
Well said
Well said
Admiral Woofington
Member
Religion doesn't kill people, nuh uh
I kill people, with religion POW
The mindless, irrational adherence to an ideology that causes terrorism (among many other ills) manifests in many forms, one of which is religion.
We'd have terrorism without religion. But there'd be a lot less of it.
'Religion doesn't cause terrorism' is just one of those pointless, wouldn't-it-be-nice feelgood statements that has no basis in reality.
We'd have terrorism without religion. But there'd be a lot less of it.
'Religion doesn't cause terrorism' is just one of those pointless, wouldn't-it-be-nice feelgood statements that has no basis in reality.
You know what's really funny? Him authorizing the killing of some dude's entire family while he's out at the market via a drone strike is probably causing more extremism than calling some terrorists who follow a certain religion Islamic extremists.
It's laughable.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
I'm not one to defend religion usually, but what exactly are the positive applications for racism?
Well he did eventually take them seriously by launching airstrikes and gathering the US led coalition as I already stated in this thread. Other nations followed his lead on the matter not the other way around.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Of course Religion itself isn't responsible, that's just silly but religious fools are getting they're crazy ideologies from somewhere, even if only a planting of the seeds.
SSPssp
Member
That was one of the few things Bush did right. President Obama should of course continue to emphasize that. But this language is just bizarre. Are we the Islamic Inquisition here to stamp out heresy?
It has worked pretty well for the Republicans. Especially over the past 7 years.
Yes, are you saying Wahabbism isn't a form of islam?
And at any rate it is clearly religion to the terrorist themselves so it strikes me as immensely stupid for Obama to let religion off the hook.
Is this the first time you've heard this year old quote? Were you for or against intervention in syria?
I mean it's a pretty shallow reading of the situation. Religion is not responsible for terrorism; it is however a factor in some types of terrorism. The type that we generally talk about today is no doubt on average heavily influenced by a particular interpretation of a religion.
SSPssp
Member
They're the ones who need to be convinced that they're wrong. I understand this speech if the intended audience was actually our middle eastern allies.
M0nochromatic
Member
Actually, philosophies, ideals, and religions do attribute to the way the groups that follow them behave.
And yet, if you read that second excerpt from the article that I posed above, Obama's administration doesn't even understand what the differences are between Al Qaeda and ISIS. The rift between those groups is based on different interpretations of religious doctrine. Could refusing to acknowledge that they're both fundamentalist Islamic groups who base their ideology on religious texts, and bizarrely (and against all evidence) dismissing them as not-Islamic terrorists, be the reason for this dangerous failure?
metalslimer
Member
It seems like people don't want to say that religion is not the issue because it would harm the more moderate Muslims, but I just don't see how you can absolve the religious texts and ideologies from what has transpired. There is a problem with Islamic fundamentalists and yes they are a part of the religion the same as the moderates.
We criticize ideologies all the times. Hell, you could make the statement that political parties have nothing to do with how terrible washington has become , but that doesn't mean Republican Party ideals haven't contributed to the disenfranchisement of people.
Also, I really don't know what impact his words will have when the people who would connect radical Islam to the more moderate people will still do so regardless.
We criticize ideologies all the times. Hell, you could make the statement that political parties have nothing to do with how terrible washington has become , but that doesn't mean Republican Party ideals haven't contributed to the disenfranchisement of people.
Also, I really don't know what impact his words will have when the people who would connect radical Islam to the more moderate people will still do so regardless.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Ted Cruz and Inhofe and right wingers are probably foaming at thier mouths with anger at such statements. Expect a statement from them very soon saying islam IS the issue
Just as there is very little point to furthering the idea this is a religious conflict with the west. Implying that "Islam", radical or extremist, is what we are fighting gives ISIS more power to convert followers.
Whether or not the religion is the cause is one thing, but why make it easier for ISIS to frame it however they want? They want an ideological or religious war and you do not fight an enemy on their terms, its like the second rule of warfare.
Well at least you were honest when you said:
Not so imaginative though.
The article doesn't say this.
What failure are you talking about? If you want to talk about failure you might as well go back to when George Bush invaded Iraq which allowed ISIS to come about due to the lack of authority in the region.
SSPssp
Member
Ted Cruz is a lost cause. But writing off everyone on that side won't help anything.
It doesn't say it directly but I'm summarizing what the articles seems to sum up to me.
Not just " plenty of muslims ". 99% of their victims are muslims.
CloverCarr
Banned
I have no idea how anybody feels they have the authority on what is 'correct' Islam, and what is 'perverted'. For every verse that says 'A', there are two more that say 'B', each of which can be contradicted by verses 'C' and 'D'.
It's quite clear where ISIS draw their inspiration and the steadfast refusal to accept that fact is disheartening.
It's quite clear where ISIS draw their inspiration and the steadfast refusal to accept that fact is disheartening.
Iraq war doesn't fit the current narrative of any party. No one wants to talk about that.
We won't talk about it in Murica except to praise snipers who excel at killing people and making shit up.
Eighty Deuce
Banned
I'm tired of these stupid fucking semantics, let's fucking kill them already.
Maninthemirror
Banned
As the president said, daesh view is based off of a self created lie to legitimize and when we legitimize their view, we create a definition of islam outside of what it was in its inception and becsuse people Persue Daesh view as legitimate, it empowrrs them and disempowers moderates
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
We also aid their recruitment, which is the bigger point.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked