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[HiredN00bs]

So you are saying Daesh are following Islam as it is in the text literally. Islam is Daesh and Daesh is Islam ?

I am saying that all religious texts are dangerous by virtue of them being justified as the word of a deity and thus place themselves above all scrutiny and reason. Whether or not a Jihadist is following a literal interpretation of scripture or a twisted version, or just some made up shit, they are fueled by irrational belief.

Furthermore, nothing I said even remotely suggested that ISIS is an organization with a perfect literal interpretation of the Qu'ran. I have merely read enough of the Torah, the Bible, and the Qu'ran to know there are abhorrent edicts that demand a literal interpretation in all of them. They were written by men in cultures hundreds upon hundreds of years ago with very flawed, ignorant perceptions of reality.

 

[TTUVAPOR]

The argument can be said for any ideology. That includes a disbelief in God.

If my best friend suddenly told me one day that Jesus and God are complete shit...I'm not gonna take a knife to his throat.

It literally takes an insane person to do that.

I feel sorry for all the children in the middle east who are basically born into this insanity. They're completely helpless to everything.

If anything, I wish the United States' armed forces could rescue the children and bring them here...I'm sure there are millions upon millions of couples/families that would adopt.

 

[Seventy70]

If my best friend suddenly told me one day that Jesus and God are complete shit...I'm not gonna take a knife to his throat.

It literally takes an insane person to do that.

I feel sorry for all the children in the middle east who are basically born into this insanity. They're completely helpless to everything.

If anything, I wish the United States' armed forces could rescue the children and bring them here...I'm sure there are millions upon millions of couples/families that would adopt.

What does that have to do with what he said?

That solution is completely unreasonable and will never happen. We need to do what we actually can do. We shouldn't make this an us vs. them thing. That's just going to lead to more extremism which is why Obama is right in making this statement. We all need to play on the same team to minimize the crazies.

 

[Maninthemirror]

ISIS, Boko Haram, AQ, Al Nusra Front, the Taliban....they're all Muslims. Stop being obtuse and trying to deflect from the very serious problem of extremism within Islam.

Islamic extremism is a fact, and those who fight us in the name of Allah are no less Muslims than any of the other billion+ Muslims worldwide who deplore violence.

Who is calling them non muslim ? Not me, I am saying where are there islamic qualities if they fail to follow the morality put forth by quran

 

[Maninthemirror]

I am saying that all religious texts are dangerous by virtue of them being justified as the word of a deity and thus place themselves above all scrutiny and reason. Whether or not a Jihadist is following a literal interpretation of scripture or a twisted version, or just some made up shit, they are fueled by irrational belief.

Yes they Are fueled by irrational belief of their distorted view of islam

 

[soul creator]

If my best friend suddenly told me one day that Jesus and God are complete shit...I'm not gonna take a knife to his throat.

It literally takes an insane person to do that.

I feel sorry for all the children in the middle east who are basically born into this insanity. They're completely helpless to everything.

If anything, I wish the United States' armed forces could rescue the children and bring them here...I'm sure there are millions upon millions of couples/families that would adopt.

There were entire cities of white people that happily joined in on watching black people get lynched, and had smiles on their faces the entire time. They weren't "insane" in the traditional mental illness sense of the term. They were wrapped up in a horrific ideology of white supremacy, encouraged by their friends, family,

Spoiler

sometimes their bibles and church leaders

, and numerous local and state governments (which consisted of people also following the ideology of white supremacy)

Simply boiling things down to "they were insane!" isn't always accurate.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Yes they Are fueled by irrational belief of their distorted view of islam

I don't believe you need to distort Islam to find wicked ideals within it.

For instance, the advocation of rape:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam

 

[TheStruggler]

Obama speaking truths. Too bad people will keep on blaming muslims just because terrorists claim they're simply following the koran

well it also plays a fault on the media as well

 

[TTUVAPOR]

What does that have to do with what he said?

That solution is completely unreasonable and will never happen. We need to do what we actually can do. We shouldn't make this an us vs. them thing. That's just going to lead to more extremism which is why Obama is right in making this statement. We all need to play on the same team to minimize the crazies.

Take a one-way flight to Libya, go up to a ISIS warrior, greet them with a handshake...tell them "hey dude, I just wanted to say, I don't believe in your God, but can we still be friends?"

See what happens.

 

[Seventy70]

I don't believe you need to distort Islam to find wicked ideals within it.

What exactly is the solution you propose then? We can't press a button and have it go away. Why shouldn't we doing what will actually be effective in reducing extremism?

Take a one-way flight to Libya, go up to a ISIS warrior, greet them with a handshake...tell them "hey dude, I just wanted to say, I don't believe in your God, but can we still be friends?"

See what happens.

They would shoot the shit out of me. What does that have to do with my post?

 

[Maninthemirror]

I don't believe you need to distort Islam to find wicked ideals within it.

For instance, the advocation of rape:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam

Wikislam? Created by an Islamophobe group ? They use the same belief as Daesh

 

[GYODX]

Most people can see right through for the intentional nuance

How's about you start replying to what people are actually saying instead of arguing against assumed intentions?

This is why these discussions always go to shit.

 

[SyenceLabb]

Yes they Are fueled by irrational belief of their distorted view of islam

Distorted view? Says who? The fact is, moderate Muslims distort the faith, and I wish we had more folks causing distortion because this world would be a more peaceful place. Then you have ISIS, who is providing us their literal interpretation of the Quran/Hadith.

This all goes back to a large amount of people still believing that religion should be free from ridicule and criticism. What Obama is preaching is dangerous.

 

[HiredN00bs]

What exactly is the solution you propose then? We can't press a button and have it go away. Why shouldn't we doing what will actually be effective in reducing extremism?

I propose we praise and deride ideas on their own merit using reason and evidence rather than ancient texts and faith.

In regards to modern Islam, I propose we support Islamic reformists that condemn jihad and support human rights.

 

[injurai]

Who is calling them non muslim ? Not me, I am saying where are there islamic qualities if they fail to follow the morality put forth by quran

But it's sort of a no true scotsmans stance. Well they are muslims but not beliefs x y and z. Those aren't muslim beliefs. Where do you stand on all that Caliphates? Are those all corruptions of the umma? Clearly they were very political and indulged themselves in conquests of war. It's not surprising that humans would found empires and engage in warred conflict, but throughout the Islamic world the Caliphates represented very much the will of God. Are Ismaili shi'ites not true muslims because their imams claim esoteric knowledge? It's not unlike the pope.

All throughout Islamic history, literally from the death of Muhammad on, the umma has been divided. Has been squabbling over what is the true lineage of Islam. Constructing different hadiths. This is not unique to Islam as a religion. But where do you proclaim one set of beliefs is any truer than the rest. If it's so clear to you why is it not clear to others?

Are you similar to non-denominational christians of modern times that attempt to reject all christian history except that which is biblically codified?

Understand I'm not really posing this in reference to the topic you were responding to but as a tangent on how we think about these people and the qualities they include in their faith.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Distorted view? Says who? The fact is, moderate Muslims distort the faith, and I wish we had more folks causing distortion because this world would be a more peaceful place. Then you have ISIS, who is providing us their literal interpretation of the Quran/Hadith.

This all goes back to a large amount of people still believing that religion should be free from ridicule and criticism. What Obama is preaching is dangerous.

I got nothing. This is what's wrong with many western non muslim thinking in this post

 

[Sutton Dagger]

The argument can be said for any ideology. That includes a disbelief in God.

Except disbelief in theistic claims (which what atheism is) has no tenets, no dogma, no authority, it tells you nothing about a person except for their position on one clai. Theism has baggage.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I propose we praise and deride ideas on their own merit using reason and evidence rather than ancient texts and faith.

In regards to modern Islam, I propose we support Islamic reformists that condemn jihad and support human rights.

What do you think of Ahmadi muslim group which are reformists

 

[Seventy70]

I propose we praise and deride ideas on their own merit using reason and evidence rather than ancient texts and faith.

In regards to modern Islam, I propose we support reformists that condemn jihad and support human rights.

That isn't going to work. Everyone knows it won't work. People are incredibly attached to their beliefs that have been in their families for centuries. You can't sit down with them one day and tell them to reform everything. Looking at it from your perspective, if they want to keep "believing" in their religion out of pride, but continue to remain peaceful and level headed, why not let them be? They may be hypocritical, but isn't it better to have that rather than making them a threat?

 

[freethoughtbubble]

This is the correct diplomatic message to project to moderates in the Islamic world. I'm not sure I see the issue as being as clear cut as the President seems to, though. It seems to me that fundamentalist religion clearly has a role in inciting violence.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I guess Obama is right as many have shown here. People are legitimizing Daesh and al Qaeda by accepting their lie that they are religious in the true sense

 

[MikeyB]

Yeah, sure, but if he's also somehow claiming that texts proclaiming divine truth don't promote dogmatic belief systems that allow people to step outside of reasoned debate and compromise, well, that duck does indeed quack like a duck, Mister President.

 

[Snake]

"religion has nothing to do with terrorism", okay, but in that context, where does that put his previous remarks about Christianity's sordid past?

What he's saying in the OP's quote is the exact same point as in your remarks. That we should not judge Muslims as a whole for things done in the name of Islam, or we would have to judge Christians as a whole for things done in the name of Christianity. He is explicitly blaming the people themselves who did terrible things in the Crusades/Slavery/Jim Crow (in the name of Christianity), and not blaming the religion or its average adherents.

 

[Dugna]

So this statement is coming from the guy who weeks ago mentioned the crusades in relation to current terrorism...and blames Christianity (rightfully) but then now says that religion isn't responsible for terrorism...I just what?

 

[Tesseract]

I guess Obama is right as many have shown here. People are legitimizing Daesh and al Qaeda by accepting their lie that they are religious in the true sense

there's no truth, only distorted interpretations of nonsense on all sides.

gotta call it like it is, sorry

 

[SyenceLabb]

I guess Obama is right as many have shown here. People are legitimizing Daesh and al Qaeda by accepting their lie that they are religious in the true sense

Tell us what the TRUE sense is? This is the inherent problem of religion. We try to interpret what men thought back countless years ago.

 

[Maninthemirror]

there's no truth, only distorted interpretations of nonsense on all sides.

Hate for faith has reached such a point that the once hated become the haters and I won't be surprised if once the opressed by fundamentalists become the opressors in decades to come. I hope I don't live to see it happening

 

[Tesseract]

Hate for faith has reached such a point that the once hated become the haters and I won't be surprised if once the opressed by fundamentalists become the opressors in decades to come. I hope I don't live to see it happening

it's not hate, it's ridicule

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Well the dude is a Muslim Kenyan after all. He should be an expert on Islam.

The funny thing, if he was Muslim, it shouldn't matter to certain right side of the political spectrum, because ya know, they are always arguing this document called the constitution and stuff.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Tell us what the TRUE sense is? This is the inherent problem of religion. We try to interpret what men thought back countless years ago.

True sense is being moral, being truthful, being righteous and courteous to all people. That is the true sense and they fail it every day

 

[Dugna]

it's not hate, it's ridicule

All the same in the eyes of a believer of a religion, which makes even criticizing a religion a pain with followers.

 

[HiredN00bs]

What do you think of Ahmadi muslim group which are reformists

Bad but better, certainly quite preferrable to doctrines of violent and murderous Jihad.

 

[TTUVAPOR]

What exactly is the solution you propose then? We can't press a button and have it go away. Why shouldn't we doing what will actually be effective in reducing extremism?

They would shoot the shit out of me. What does that have to do with my post?

Well you said we shouldn't make it an us vs them...and that we should all play on the same team.

So, lets have our Navy Seals and Marines walk over to Syria with welcome arms saying...we forgive you...and hey, we don't believe in Islam, but you have the freedom to believe in what religion you want...

Religious extremism is no different than Charles Manson.

A child molester believes there's nothing wrong with him while he's doing what he's doing. Yet, when he's confronted, suddenly he says, "i'm crazy, please help me"...wrong.

We can throw him in jail, or we can throw him in a looney bin...either way...he's not contributing a single thing to society.

ISIS, isn't contributing to society. Their beliefs, whether religious or not, are not contributing to society.

When you start to take other human being's lives in danger...that's the final straw.

I couldn't care less if some ISIS warrior wants to believe their god will grant them 72 virgins in heaven...so be it...but don't sit there and preach to me that i must believe what you believe in order to live my life on this planet.

They need to die...all of them. They are parasites of this planet. Plain and simple.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Bad but better, certainly quite preferrable to doctrines of violent and murderous Jihad.

Bad but better? Lol there is no hope then

 

[m_shortpants]

Good on Obama.

 

[Maninthemirror]

it's not hate, it's ridicule

Trust me. I have witnessed hate on my community in pakistan as a minority. I know hate when I witness it in words. I hope I don't see it in action

 

[Seventy70]

Well you said we shouldn't make it an us vs them...and that we should all play on the same team.

So, lets have our Navy Seals and Marines walk over to Syria with welcome arms saying...we forgive you...and hey, we don't believe in Islam, but you have the freedom to believe in what religion you want...

Religious extremism is no different than Charles Manson.

A child molester believes there's nothing wrong with him while he's doing what he's doing. Yet, when he's confronted, suddenly he says, "i'm crazy, please help me"...wrong.

We can throw him in jail, or we can throw him in a looney bin...either way...he's not contributing a single thing to society.

ISIS, isn't contributing to society. Their beliefs, whether religious or not, are not contributing to society.

When you start to take other human being's lives in danger...that's the final straw.

I couldn't care less if some ISIS warrior wants to believe their god will grant them 72 virgins in heaven...so be it...but don't sit there and preach to me that i must believe what you believe in order to live my life on this planet.

They need to die...all of them. They are parasites of this planet. Plain and simple.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that we have to fight the extremists (ISIS), but we can't make it an us vs. Islam thing. That will just lead more people who are being peaceful as of now to the extremist side. ISIS will be justified for more people.

 

[Dugna]

True sense is being moral, being truthful, being righteous and courteous to all people. That is the true sense and they fail it every day

Again that's your interpretation on the book/religion itself, and ISIS have their interpretation neither is the more "true" interpretation. Only reason people don't hate the moderates as much is because their interpretation isn't killing people by the hundreds of thousands.

 

[m_shortpants]

So this statement is coming from the guy who weeks ago mentioned the crusades in relation to current terrorism...and blames Christianity (rightfully) but then now says that religion isn't responsible for terrorism...I just what?

No, he said back then that many acts have been carried out IN THE NAME of Christianity, just as now they are being carried out IN THE NAME of Islam.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Again that's your interpretation on the book/religion itself, and ISIS have their interpretation neither is the more "true" interpretation. Only reason people don't hate the moderates as much is because their interpretation isn't killing people by the hundreds of thousands.

Do you WANT the isis view to survive or the view I presented ?

 

[TTUVAPOR]

I think you misunderstood me. I said that we have to fight the extremists (ISIS), but we can't make it an us vs. Islam thing. That will just lead more people to the extremist side.

Islam as a religion...I'm fine with.

Killing humans because they don't believe...not right.

If Islam truthfully says to do that...then Islam is wrong.

 

[Seventy70]

Islam as a religion...I'm fine with.

Killing humans because they don't believe...not right.

If Islam truthfully says to do that...then Islam is wrong.

What do you want to do then? Whether or you think Islam is wrong is a whole different discussion. This is about how to handle the situation that we are currently in. Doesn't matter how stupid you think religion is. We have got to handle this somehow and I think Obama is doing great.

 

[HiredN00bs]

That isn't going to work. Everyone knows it won't work. People are incredibly attached to their beliefs that have been in their families for centuries. You can't sit down with them one day and tell them to reform everything. Looking at it from your perspective, if they want to keep "believing" in their religion out of pride, but continue to remain peaceful and level headed, why not let them be? They may be hypocritical, but isn't it better to have that rather than making them a threat?

Experience is everything. I myself was a religious idealogue. The power of people, free thought, open forums of discussion, and reason cannot be understated. Agnostic atheism is powerful because it is honest and cherishes rationality.

 

[TTUVAPOR]

What do you want to do then? Whether or you think Islam is wrong is a whole different discussion. This is about how to handle the situation that we are currently in.

Pest control the planet of them.

What did we do to the NAZIS?

Repeat that.

 

[Dugna]

Do you WANT the isis view to survive or the view I presented ?

Neither actually, but I still believe in your right to have your view.

 

[Seventy70]

Pest control the planet of them.

What did we do to the NAZIS?

Repeat that.

Yes, we need to get rid of ISIS, but we shouldn't make more enemies by completely trashing Islam. If Obama came out and said "We are declaring war on religion!" that would just lead to more people justifying and becoming extremists.

 

[CrocMother]

There was a time (centuries) when Islamic civilization was the most progressive society in terms of tolerance, diversity and learning. I don't want to give up on all of that amazing history just because of a few thousand wack jobs.

 

[injurai]

Maninthemirror, I won't force you but any answer to my question above?

It seems there are problems in this world that are identifiable, but the semantics divide people. Some want to say it's not Islam those are apart from it. Others say they are people who claim and think they are of Islam but are not. Which case the two groups disagree whether we should humor them muslims or deny them their right to be called muslims.

It really comes down to how strong of language one wishes to use, and at what scope they are framing the problem. You say it's hate, others call it ridicule.

When you ask or tell people to stop painting certain people as muslims, that they are apart from the surrender to god. Then you have to explain why. Because clearly the people themselves claim themselves to be.

 

[block tower]

i disagree with the pres., it most definitely is responsible for terrorism.

 

[Dugna]

Yes, we need to get rid of ISIS, but we shouldn't make more enemies by completely trashing Islam. If Obama came out and said "Religion and Islam are horrible!" that would just lead to more people justifying and becoming extremists.

But by what you're saying these type of people would be insane anyway...so I don't think it matters either way if Obama says Islam is "evil" or not when most of these people are going to see what ISIS does almost daily now and think it's cool to join them.