Let's not go off the deep end. They have oil.
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Obama: Religion is not responsible for terrorism
- Thread starter Maninthemirror
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Let's not go off the deep end. They have oil.
If you actually read the excerpt, I'm pretty clearly talking about the attempt to get Al Qaeda and ISIS to work together, just to attempt to secure the release of one America hostage, and how dangerous it would have been had it worked and Al Qaeda and ISIS moved closer to each other.
CloverCarr
Banned
Sure, but Imam Bloggs and his cohort of Islamic Scholars could just as easily say that Obama hasn't got the first idea what he's talking about. You say their view is a self created lie, just as they'd say the same of your view. Which of you does the source material say is correct? My bet is on both and neither.
Tesseract
Banned
there's only one true divine reality, friend
not psycho
Member
"The terrorists do not speak for a billion Muslims who reject their ideology" is, of course, true. Muslims should not blamed, do not have to apologize, etc, for the actions of the terrorists. I feel bad for Muslims having a form of their religion used in this manner... must be awful.
But the fact remains that the terrorists have a religion based on the same texts and history that Islam is based on, that they call their religion Islam, that their actions are influenced by it, and that any intelligent response will account for it. Therefore we have to be able to at least mention it!
Having said that, I can see the logic behind Obama's decision not to use "Islamic extremists." The term is vague enough that I can see it being interpreted as implying a war on Islam, especially in combination with propaganda. But we need to be able to speak of it. Any ideas on what a good term would be? Obama talks about people who "Perverted Islam" in this speech, but I don't know if that would catch on, or if more Muslims would find it palatable.
But the fact remains that the terrorists have a religion based on the same texts and history that Islam is based on, that they call their religion Islam, that their actions are influenced by it, and that any intelligent response will account for it. Therefore we have to be able to at least mention it!
Having said that, I can see the logic behind Obama's decision not to use "Islamic extremists." The term is vague enough that I can see it being interpreted as implying a war on Islam, especially in combination with propaganda. But we need to be able to speak of it. Any ideas on what a good term would be? Obama talks about people who "Perverted Islam" in this speech, but I don't know if that would catch on, or if more Muslims would find it palatable.
I get what you are saying but why is relevant if it didn't actually work? Obama and every one in the administration now knows how serious this group was and how they underestimated them. So I'm not sure why year old quotes are relevant to today.
Quran 9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Quran 9:30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Quran 61:9
It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Quran 9:30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Quran 61:9
It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.
So do we. US produces almost as much as Saudi Arabia. US imports more oil from Canada than it does from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia exports mostly to Asia.
Moderate Muslim Peace Conference
It's quite clear that religion impacts peoples livelihood and drives them to live in accordance with their belief. These muslims would agree with Sam Harris when he says many of these beliefs are not indicative the radicalism or extremists. There are fundamental differences in belief, and it drives people to conflict.
It's quite clear that religion impacts peoples livelihood and drives them to live in accordance with their belief. These muslims would agree with Sam Harris when he says many of these beliefs are not indicative the radicalism or extremists. There are fundamental differences in belief, and it drives people to conflict.
Because the fact that they even tried to get Al Qaeda and ISIS to work together shows how little they understand the differences between the two groups.
As I said, the rift between those groups is based on different interpretations of religious doctrine. Could refusing to acknowledge that they're both fundamentalist Islamic groups who base their ideology on religious texts, and bizarrely (and against all evidence) dismissing them as not-Islamic terrorists, be the reason for this dangerous failure?
The Alan Henning thing was just a few months ago, he was killed in October 2014.
SSPssp
Member
It's a global market though so the price would go up for everyone unless we put into place price controls. I think it would be justified if we actually went after the root of the problem though.
TouchMyBox
Member
Yeah, there will always be self-obsessed bigots, religion is just their weapon of choice.
gutter_trash
Banned
if that is the case, then Southern Baptists are not really Christians. ^ ^
----
IMO, Obama is failing in his delivery of trying to explain something complex with overly simplistic phrases.
I understand he is saying this to calm down people who are ready to blame all Muslims but his statements at times trying to "educate" Americans comes off too simple in his deliveries.
Remember the comparison with Crusades in the name of Christianity last week? like that, just blurt out an over simplistic phrase then leaves without talking about complexities.
Meanwhile Libya is a disaster zone and he and the rest of the West dropped the ball there and now ISIS is installed in parts of Libya on the other side of the Mediterranean. ... what a total fuck up
My thing is that the correlation between religion and terrorism should be stronger in order to claim that religion inherently causes terrorism.
Now, religious people definitely commit terrorism, and religious contexts can breed terrorists, but one does not necessarily beget the other.
The racism, homophobia, sexism, bigotry is what makes it a hate crime, whereas religious motivation doesn't make a violent act terrorism.
Yeah totally. Also "Saudi Arabia" is a complicated concept here because OPEC.
This dangerous failure was not much of failure if it didn't even work is my point. Whether Obama classifies them as islamic terrorist or non islamic terrorist does not matter. What we do know is that they arose to power due to a authority vacuum in the middle east. Their resources were also underestimated. Labeling them islamic or unislamic has very little to do with the situation as it is today.
I couldn't disagree more with your first, second, and last sentences... everything but the power vacuum / underestimated part.
And I strongly suggest you read that full article for a better understanding of what ISIS really is (Salafist muslims whose views mainly differ from others regarding takfir, or excommunication, who have founded a caliphate led by a descendant from the Quraysh tribe of the Prophet Mohammed)... If that's not Islamic what exactly is Islamic?
It's not about framing the issue, it's about accuracy. We can't hope to defeat something if we don't even know what it is we're fighting. At least by acknowledging that what we're fighting is radical, violent Islam we can then gain a better understanding of how to defeat this evil.
What we're fighting is people.
At least you're not a Sam Harris type and at least qualified by saying 'radical, violent Islam' rather than just 'Islam'. I'll give you that.
Maninthemirror
Banned
I know you are an ex muslim but surely you would know if you were educated on islam that 9:29 refers to those few Jews who attacked muslim tribes along with the Quraish and killed muslims and not Jews as a religious community as a whole and 9:30 refers to the concept of idolitary which creeped into Christianty and some jewish sects with the worship of Jesus and Ezra as equally associated with God. 61:9
No where does it mention killing those who harmed no one despite their beliefs and from verse 1 of chapter 9 it repeatedly mentions don't be transgressors. So far there is no proof from these verses if you read them alone without starting from 9:1 that there is anywhere where muslims are told to kill christians and Jews for being christians and Jews.
I can understand now why you left your faith if you grew up in an area where this was taught to you without self education and proper guidance . I would have left islam if I didn't self educate and proper guidancetoo with all the distortions done by men
When we were fighting the Nazis you could also say "What we're fighting is people" but that's rather meaningless because we were not fighting all people, but those who were Nazis specifically.
Venn Diagram
big circle: all people
little circle inside it: fundamentalist Islamic terrorist groups made up of, yes, people
Maninthemirror
Banned
Whoa are we equating islam with nazism now . Wow
Well Allah does send people to roast in hell. That's pretty evil.
Read it again.
Maninthemirror
Banned
I did
Pretty much.
Are you just looking for something to be offended by? Replace Nazism with Communism (the Cold War) if that will make you actually pay attention to the argument being made instead of immediately playing the outrage card.
The common thread is "things fought against, past and present" not anything beyond that...
Well he isn't equating the two. He is demonstrating how you refer to things and frame them. It's an analogy to an also problematic ideological entity comprised of individuals.
Had the same thought. Religion is not totally responsible but it can definitely play a big part.
M0nochromatic
Member
Are you being intentionally obtuse? It's clear that he's talking about categorization. Sure it's poes law, but we do sort people by what they align with. Whether that's democrat, pacifist, atheist, Christian, Buddhist, nazi, or , muslim.
Maninthemirror
Banned
You are basically making the same argument a tea partier Ted Cruz would make. A bit uneducated in applying facts. The fight is against people with a distorted view of facts. Facts of how most muslims run their lives by
Most people can see right through for the intentional nuance
The argument really becomes, if you take something out of context, is it really the same as it originally meant?
Not like you couldn't draw some parallels between extremist terrorist islam and nazism. Of course they aren't the same.
But that is clearly not what is being done there. There was no alluding to that intent. You're projecting.
Maninthemirror
Banned
It's like Obama suggests People shouldnt believe the lie of DAesh and if you don't believe it as a lie, what does that tell about you and your intentions
Well of course we're fighting people. Duh! During WWII did the Allies refer to their enemies as "people" as well? No! They called them what they were: Germans, Japanese and Italians.
We're fighting radical Islamic extremists. Period!
Oh, and Sam Harris is an arsehole!
Maninthemirror
Banned
What is islamic about them when they fail all tests of how a moral muslim should be?
HiredN00bs
Member
Most Jews, Christians, and Muslims are good people, despite the backwards, morally abhorrent shit in their holy texts. You don't reach those people by telling them that, though. It takes patience and example and love to win them over. They must resolve their own rational failings in their own time.
Socially speaking, a reformation of Islam towards a pacifistic interpretation would be a great thing for the world. Preach hateful condemnation in writing over bombs and guns. Teach the believers that mixing their faith with government is against their interest.
Socially speaking, a reformation of Islam towards a pacifistic interpretation would be a great thing for the world. Preach hateful condemnation in writing over bombs and guns. Teach the believers that mixing their faith with government is against their interest.
I think Obama is right. The way to peace is to fight the bad people that follow a religion and bring the sensible ones closer. I think a lot of people can get very thirsty sometimes about putting themselves in a position where they critique something that is "obviously wrong" in order to make themselves feel superior and unique. The religious extremists think in the same exact ways.
Islam and religion aren't going away. We need to do what we actually are able to do.
Islam and religion aren't going away. We need to do what we actually are able to do.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
"religion has nothing to do with terrorism", okay, but in that context, where does that put his previous remarks about Christianity's sordid past?
Obama said:
Maninthemirror
Banned
So you are saying Daesh are following Islam as it is in the text literally. Islam is Daesh and Daesh is Islam ?
adamsappel
Member
"Here in the United States our Muslim citizens are making many contributions in business, science and law, medicine and education, and in other fields. Muslim members of our Armed Forces and of my administration are serving their fellow Americans with distinction, upholding our nation's ideals of liberty and justice in a world at peace."
Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr
The Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
December 5, 2002
"Over the past month, Muslims have fasted, taking no food or water during daylight hours, in order to refocus their minds on faith and redirect their hearts to charity. Muslims worldwide have stretched out a hand of mercy to those in need. Charity tables at which the poor can break their fast line the streets of cities and towns. And gifts of food and clothing and money are distributed to ensure that all share in God's abundance. Muslims often invite members of other families to their evening iftar meals, demonstrating a spirit of tolerance."
Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr
The Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
December 5, 2002
"America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."
Presidential Message Eid al-Fitr
December 5, 2002
"Islam brings hope and comfort to millions of people in my country, and to more than a billion people worldwide. Ramadan is also an occasion to remember that Islam gave birth to a rich civilization of learning that has benefited mankind."
President's Eid al-Fitr Greeting to Muslims around the World
December 4, 2002
"Ours is a war not against a religion, not against the Muslim faith. But ours is a war against individuals who absolutely hate what America stands for, and hate the freedom of the Czech Republic. And therefore, we must work together to defend ourselves. And by remaining strong and united and tough, we'll prevail."
Press Conference by President Bush and President Havel of Czech Republic
Prague Castle, Prague, Czech Republic
November 20, 2002
"Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon tolerance and we welcome people of all faiths in America."
Remarks by President George W. Bush in a statement to reporters during a meeting with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan
The Oval Office, Washington, DC
November 13, 2002
"We see in Islam a religion that traces its origins back to God's call on Abraham. We share your belief in God's justice, and your insistence on man's moral responsibility. We thank the many Muslim nations who stand with us against terror. Nations that are often victims of terror, themselves."
President Hosts Iftaar Dinner
Remarks by the President at Iftaar Dinner
State Dining Room
"Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn't follow the great traditions of Islam. They've hijacked a great religion."
Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
October 11, 2002
"Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion."
Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
October 11, 2002
"All Americans must recognize that the face of terror is not the true faith -- face of Islam. Islam is a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. It's a faith that has made brothers and sisters of every race. It's a faith based upon love, not hate."
President George W. Bush Holds Roundtable with Arab and Muslim-American Leaders
Afghanistan Embassy, Washington, D.C.
September 10, 2002
"If liberty can blossom in the rocky soil of the West Bank and Gaza, it will inspire millions of men and women around the globe who are equally weary of poverty and oppression, equally entitled to the benefits of democratic government. I have a hope for the people of Muslim countries. Your commitments to morality, and learning, and tolerance led to great historical achievements. And those values are alive in the Islamic world today. You have a rich culture, and you share the aspirations of men and women in every culture. Prosperity and freedom and dignity are not just American hopes, or Western hopes. They are universal, human hopes. And even in the violence and turmoil of the Middle East, America believes those hopes have the power to transform lives and nations."
President George W. Bush Calls for New Palestinian Leadership
The Rose Garden, Washington, D.C.
June 24, 2002
"When it comes to the common rights and needs of men and women, there is no clash of civilizations. The requirements of freedom apply fully to Africa and Latin America and the entire Islamic world. The peoples of the Islamic nations want and deserve the same freedoms and opportunities as people in every nation. And their governments should listen to their hopes."
Remarks by the President George W. Bush at the 2002 Graduation Exercise of the United States Military Academy
West Point, New York
June 1, 2002
"America rejects bigotry. We reject every act of hatred against people of Arab background or Muslim faith America values and welcomes peaceful people of all faiths -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and many others. Every faith is practiced and protected here, because we are one country. Every immigrant can be fully and equally American because we're one country. Race and color should not divide us, because America is one country."
President George W. Bush Promotes Compassionate Conservatism
Parkside Hall, San Jose, California
April 30, 2002
"We're taking action against evil people. Because this great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil. This is clearly a case of good versus evil, and make no mistake about it -- good will prevail."
Remarks by the President George W. Bush at a Town Hall Meeting with Citizens of Ontario
Ontario Convention Center, Ontario, California
January 5, 2002
"Eid is a time of joy, after a season of fasting and prayer and reflection. Each year, the end of Ramadan means celebration and thanksgiving for millions of Americans. And your joy during this season enriches the life of our great country. This year, Eid is celebrated at the same time as Hanukkah and Advent. So it's a good time for people of these great faiths, Islam, Judaism and Christianity, to remember how much we have in common: devotion to family, a commitment to care for those in need, a belief in God and His justice, and the hope for peace on earth."
Remarks by the President in Honor of Eid Al-Fitr
The Diplomatic Reception Room
December 17, 2001
"The teachings of many faiths share much in common. And people of many faiths are united in our commitments to love our families, to protect our children, and to build a more peaceful world. In the coming year, let us resolve to seize opportunities to work together in a spirit of friendship and cooperation. Through our combined efforts, we can end terrorism and rid our civilization of the damaging effects of hatred and intolerance, ultimately achieving a brighter future for all."
President's Message for Eid al-Fitr
December 13, 2001
"According to Muslim teachings, God first revealed His word in the Holy Qur'an to the prophet, Muhammad, during the month of Ramadan. That word has guided billions of believers across the centuries, and those believers built a culture of learning and literature and science. All the world continues to benefit from this faith and its achievements."
Remarks by the President George W. Bush At Iftaar Dinner
The State Dining Room, Washington, D.C.
November 19, 2001
"The Islam that we know is a faith devoted to the worship of one God, as revealed through The Holy Qur'an. It teaches the value and the importance of charity, mercy, and peace."
President George W. Bush's Message for Ramadan
November 15, 2001
"This new enemy seeks to destroy our freedom and impose its views. We value life; the terrorists ruthlessly destroy it. We value education; the terrorists do not believe women should be educated or should have health care, or should leave their homes. We value the right to speak our minds; for the terrorists, free expression can be grounds for execution. We respect people of all faiths and welcome the free practice of religion; our enemy wants to dictate how to think and how to worship even to their fellow Muslims."
President George W. Bush Addresses the Nation
World Congress Center, Atlanta, Georgia
November 8, 2001
"All of us here today understand this: We do not fight Islam, we fight against evil."
Remarks by President George W. Bush to the Warsaw Conference on Combating Terrorism
November 6, 2001
"I have assured His Majesty that our war is against evil, not against Islam. There are thousands of Muslims who proudly call themselves Americans, and they know what I know -- that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion. The exact opposite of the teachings of the al Qaeda organization, which is based upon evil and hate and destruction."
Remarks by President George W. Bush and His Majesty King Abdullah of Jordan
The Oval Office, Washington, D.C.
September 28, 2001
"Americans understand we fight not a religion; ours is not a campaign against the Muslim faith. Ours is a campaign against evil."
President George W. Bush Remarks by the President to Airline Employees
O'Hare International Airport, Chicago, Illinois
September 27, 2001
"The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them."
President George W. Bush's Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
United States Capitol, Washington, D.C.
September 20, 2001
"I've made it clear, Madam President, that the war against terrorism is not a war against Muslims, nor is it a war against Arabs. It's a war against evil people who conduct crimes against innocent people."
Remarks by President George W. Bush and President Megawati of Indonesia
The Oval Office, Washington, D.C.
September 19, 2001
"The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."
Remarks by the President at Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
Washington, D.C.
September 17, 2001
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/ramadan/islam.html
No, I understand that ISIS is following an interpretation of Islam. My point is that combating ISIS today in the present has very little to do with calling them Islamist. And anyone can say that it was a mistake to try and get ISiS and Al Qaeda to work together in hindsight. How we fight ISIS today is by combating youth being recruited and radicalised and by bombing them out of the region. Everything other than that is arguing over semantics.
ISIS, Boko Haram, AQ, Al Nusra Front, the Taliban....they're all Muslims. Stop being obtuse and trying to deflect from the very serious problem of extremism within Islam.
Islamic extremism is a fact, and those who fight us in the name of Allah are no less Muslims than any of the other billion+ Muslims worldwide who deplore violence.
Baki
Member
The argument can be said for any ideology. That includes a disbelief in God.
There are extremist Christians in the world, they interpret the Old Testament as the all being truth...and they are scary. There are many religious denominations that I would never want to be associated with because I truly believe they are pyscho, however, at the end of the day, they're not mass murdering people who do not believe them.
I'm all for freedom of religion a human being on this planet believes in something...doesn't matter whether it's god, aliens or the fucking dinosaurs...if they believe and worship something then so be it...it's their right.
The moment that someone starts murdering someone because they don't believe what they believe...that's inhumane.
I'm a 50/50 catholic and I can't fathom killing someone who doesn't believe in Christianity. I know there was the whole crusades thing...but honestly I don't know the entire history of it, so I'm not even going to bother commenting on it.
Point is...ISIS has ZERO basis on their actions.
They can sit there and say they're doing god's work...wrong. A true god doesn't tell their children to rid the world of non-believers.
I can't fathom a greater being telling the things the created to kill those who don't believe in their creator.
Ya know what...let the people die a natural death...and let the after-life determine their fate.
Religion scares the hell out of me.
I'm all for freedom of religion a human being on this planet believes in something...doesn't matter whether it's god, aliens or the fucking dinosaurs...if they believe and worship something then so be it...it's their right.
The moment that someone starts murdering someone because they don't believe what they believe...that's inhumane.
I'm a 50/50 catholic and I can't fathom killing someone who doesn't believe in Christianity. I know there was the whole crusades thing...but honestly I don't know the entire history of it, so I'm not even going to bother commenting on it.
Point is...ISIS has ZERO basis on their actions.
They can sit there and say they're doing god's work...wrong. A true god doesn't tell their children to rid the world of non-believers.
I can't fathom a greater being telling the things the created to kill those who don't believe in their creator.
Ya know what...let the people die a natural death...and let the after-life determine their fate.
Religion scares the hell out of me.
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