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[BadBurger]

We need Mark Walhberg as a Jedi.

Walhberg voice: "Listen man... it's just about The Force right? Like, you know, let's put our jogging jeans on and work this out. Donnie can circle around the parking lot until we're ready to leave man. New England.".

 

[Bragr]

At this point, there is far more bad Star Wars content than good Star Wars content. This is a low-effort low-brow TV show. I have to stop watching, this episode was a waste of time, it makes no sense and like the Star Trek shows, it's turning Star Wars into a bad franchise.

 

[dr_octagon]

Walhberg voice: "Listen man... it's just about The Force right? Like, you know, let's put our jogging jeans on and work this out. Donnie can circle around the parking lot until we're ready to leave man. New England.".

fahk you and your empire, I don't care if you're big time sith lawhd. I'll see the little bitch Vader soon, fahkin amateurs.

 

[Kev Kev]

Lol some of y’all are really over thinking this. The show is fine.

 

[Bragr]

Lol some of y’all are really over thinking this.

You are underthinking it.

 

[Ulysses 31]

You are underthinking it.

 

[Kev Kev]

Lol come on you don’t think you’re over analyzing it even a little bit? Most non nerdy people are really enjoying it.

 

[Bragr]

The TV series is too low-effort to enjoy.

It's like watching a cowboy ride a horse into town, but when he arrives, he arrives in a car. It makes no sense. It's so dumb that you can't enjoy it. That's how it's like watching Obi-Wan walking around with that giant trenchcoat.

To be able to enjoy this show, you have to completely miss everything. You have to have zero capability to think about what you are watching. You must be an airhead.

Luckily for Disney, most people are airheads, especially 15-year-olds who will love this sort of show. You would hope older people would have some standards though.

 

[Turnt]

You’ve watched 4 episodes of a show you seem to hate. Seems like you have a strong compulsion to consume.

 

[Ulysses 31]

You’ve watched 4 episodes of a show you seem to hate. Seems like you have a strong compulsion to consume.

I'm never that emotionally invested that I love/hate games/movies. But I do appreciate the craft of "good" story telling through those mediums.

 

[Turnt]

I'm never that emotionally invested that I love/hate games/movies. But I do appreciate the craft of "good" story telling through those mediums.

So why not spend your time with something you consider well made instead? Why are you still watching this?

 

[Kev Kev]

I'm never that emotionally invested that I love/hate games/movies. But I do appreciate the craft of "good" story telling through those mediums.

So why not spend your time with something you consider well made instead? Why are you still watching this?

Ulysses 31

 

[Ulysses 31]

So why not spend your time with something you consider well made instead?

I get some comedic value out of watching big productions with sloppy writing/executions.

 

[Kev Kev]

I get some comedic value out of watching big productions with sloppy writing/executions.

lol so youre just here to be a hater? thats sad go outside dude

 

[Turnt]

I get some comedic value out of watching big productions with sloppy writing/executions.

More comedic value than you would get from a good comedy show/film/stand up show? This show is the funniest thing you can imagine watching? You’re looking for something funny to watch and decided on Disney+’s Obi-Wan Kenobi show?

 

[Ulysses 31]

lol so youre just here to be a hater? thats sad go outside dude

No, I'm here to posts what I see as sloppy writing, character assassinations or inconsistent continuity with established lore.

 

[Thaedolus]

No, I'm here to posts what I see as sloppy writing, character assassinations or inconsistent continuity with established lore.

 

[Ulysses 31]

More comedic value than you would get from a good comedy show/film/stand up show? This show is the funniest thing you can imagine watching? You’re looking for something funny to watch and decided on Disney+’s Obi-Wan Kenobi show?

I don't actually like most of straight up comedy shows/movies, especially shows with laugh tracks. I can't get behind obvious parodies like the Scary Movies either.

I enjoyed the OT and PT for the most part so I do like to check out how shows with new lore develop.

 

[Kev Kev]

No, I'm here to posts what I see as sloppy writing, character assassinations or inconsistent continuity with established lore.

and you find this more enjoyable then watching and discussing something you actually like? for over 17 pages in a period of nearly 2 weeks now?

at one point are you just going to move on with your life and stop wasting your time hate watching this show? there has to be a better, more enjoyable way to spend your time that has even more comedic and entertainment value

 

[Ulysses 31]

I think I'd have to go a few steps further and try to shame people who do enjoy the show to really be a hater IMO. And I list my reasons why I think what I think so I don't really see that as just hatin' either.

and you find this more enjoyable then watching and discussing something you actually like? for over 17 pages in a period of nearly 2 weeks now?

at one point are you just going to move on with your life and stop wasting your time hate watching this show? there has to be a better, more enjoyable way to spend your time that has even more comedic and entertainment value

I'll admit this show isn't the most efficient use of my time but I do get some entertainment out of it like I said before. Who are you to tell me to move on?

If you don't like what I have to say about the show you can easily skip to posts you do want to read.

 

[Turnt]

I don't actually like most of straight up comedy shows/movies, especially shows with laugh tracks. I can't get behind obvious parodies like the Scary Movies either.

I enjoyed the OT and PT for the most part so I do like to check out how shows with new lore develop.

I can get wanting to watch the first episode. Even if you haven’t liked the recent stuff, if you’re a fan of Star Wars in general then check out the new thing and see what it’s like. But you’re now roughly four hours in and it’s clear you don’t like what they are doing with the material. And I’m guessing you’re going to watch the next two as well. If the show wasn’t Star Wars would you be doing this? That’s where it seems like you are just consuming out of some loyalty to a brand. Your time is more valuable than just sitting down and watching whatever Star Wars thing Disney puts out just because it’s called Star Wars. By watching it you’re also actively contributing to Disney following down this path you don’t like. Because as long as you’re watching it they don’t care why. It seems like in this era of “content” we’re stuck in this loop where there’s a couple franchises that have large enough fanbases that they will watch anything related to those franchises, whether they like them or not. And so corporations can keep mining down deeper and deeper on those franchises because they know there’s a reliable base of consumers (because fans is no longer the accurate term really) who will line up for whatever is served up to them.

If Disney announced a new show called “Star Wars: Man Takes A Shit” and it was six hours of a guy taking a shit but Disney had made it clear that it was officially canon and teased the possibility of Nien Nunb having a cameo in a post-credits scene would you watch every episode to see how it developed the lore?

 

[Kev Kev]

I can get wanting to watch the first episode. Even if you haven’t liked the recent stuff, if you’re a fan of Star Wars in general then check out the new thing and see what it’s like. But you’re now roughly four hours in and it’s clear you don’t like what they are doing with the material. And I’m guessing you’re going to watch the next two as well. If the show wasn’t Star Wars would you be doing this? That’s where it seems like you are just consuming out of some loyalty to a brand. Your time is more valuable than just sitting down and watching whatever Star Wars thing Disney puts out just because it’s called Star Wars. By watching it you’re also actively contributing to Disney following down this path you don’t like. Because as long as you’re watching it they don’t care why. It seems like in this era of “content” we’re stuck in this loop where there’s a couple franchises that have large enough fanbases that they will watch anything related to those franchises, whether they like them or not. And so corporations can keep mining down deeper and deeper on those franchises because they know there’s a reliable base of consumers (because fans is no longer the accurate term really) who will line up for whatever is served up to them.

If Disney announced a new show called “Star Wars: Man Takes A Shit” and it was six hours of a guy taking a shit but Disney had made it clear that it was officially canon and teased the possibility of Nien Nunb having a cameo in a post-credits scene would you watch every episode to see how it developed the lore?

good post but your not gonna win with him bud. hes here to hate SW and rustle jimmies. i dont want to use the T word bc he seems a decent poster in other areas of the forum but its clear what his motivations are here. just ignore him and move on, the same thing he should do with this TV show

 

[Ulysses 31]

I can get wanting to watch the first episode. Even if you haven’t liked the recent stuff, if you’re a fan of Star Wars in general then check out the new thing and see what it’s like. But you’re now roughly four hours in and it’s clear you don’t like what they are doing with the material. And I’m guessing you’re going to watch the next two as well.

I still have some hope of course corrections but even if I don't end up liking the show overall, it may still have good moments sprinkled throughout that are worth watching at least once.

If the show wasn’t Star Wars would you be doing this?

Unlikely, I'd probably wait for the whole season first before watching.

That’s where it seems like you are just consuming out of some loyalty to a brand. Your time is more valuable than just sitting down and watching whatever Star Wars thing Disney puts out just because it’s called Star Wars. By watching it you’re also actively contributing to Disney following down this path you don’t like. Because as long as you’re watching it they don’t care why. It seems like in this era of “content” we’re stuck in this loop where there’s a couple franchises that have large enough fanbases that they will watch anything related to those franchises, whether they like them or not. And so corporations can keep mining down deeper and deeper on those franchises because they know there’s a reliable base of consumers (because fans is no longer the accurate term really) who will line up for whatever is served up to them.

Like I said before, there is some entertainment I get out of this show even if it is in an unintended way. This would change if I simply found the show consistently too boring.

It would have to be incredibly bad, like Ed Wood level bad, for me to stop watch watching after an ep and this show is not close to that. At that point I'd probably watch summary videos of proceeding SW shows first before watching again.

If Disney announced a new show called “Star Wars: Man Takes A Shit” and it was six hours of a guy taking a shit but Disney had made it clear that it was officially canon and teased the possibility of Nien Nunb having a cameo in a post-credits scene would you watch every episode to see how it developed the lore?

At that point I'd know Disney truly don't care anymore and neither would I. But if I hear that it's "so bad it's OK/good", I might check it out.

 

[dr_octagon]

Lol some of y’all are really over thinking this. The show is fine.

This show is the singular reason for the problems we have today. Please don't mimise the fall of western civilization.

I love democracy.

I don't think you do Chancellor Kev.

 

[Sigizmundo]

I hate that this show exists, in no universe, under no circumstances, can I buy that Kenobi wouod shirk his duties and responsibilities in protecting Luke and go gallivanting across the universe.

One of my big gripes is them presenting him as being totally useless combat-wise. He's supposed to protect Luke, from things on and off of Tatooine. How can he possibly do this when he's presented as so inept in the Force? How is he gonna train Luke in anything when all his own skills have gone to utterly to shit?

 

[ManaByte]

One of my big gripes is them presenting him as being totally useless combat-wise. He's supposed to protect Luke, from things on and off of Tatooine. How can he possibly do this when he's presented as so inept in the Force? How is he gonna train Luke in anything when all his own skills have gone to utterly to shit?

Didn’t see episode 4 did you.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

and you find this more enjoyable then watching and discussing something you actually like? for over 17 pages in a period of nearly 2 weeks now?

at one point are you just going to move on with your life and stop wasting your time hate watching this show? there has to be a better, more enjoyable way to spend your time that has even more comedic and entertainment value

Idk about him, but it's hard to let go of something that's been a part of your life for decades. It's taken me over 5 years to stop hate watching Disney's Star Wars.......

I'll still stalk the threads though, like a bitter ex.

 

[Sigizmundo]

Didn’t see episode 4 did you.

Yeah I saw his Zenkai boost. Two eps prior he struggles hard to catch and put Leia down on the ground, now he's deflecting shoots in two directions from multiple groups of troopers. Obi-Wan should let people almost kill him more often if it helps bring his XP back so quickly.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Idk about him, but it's hard to let go of something that's been a part of your life for decades. It's taken me over 5 years to stop hate watching Disney's Star Wars.......

I'll still stalk the threads though, like a bitter ex.

Over 5 years huh? That's like since The Force Awakens?

 

[Kimahri]

I dunno. I just can't get into it. It's not.. There's no nerve. No excitement. I just don't care about this story.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

Are we not going to talk about the fact that we had been told since the beginning of time that Obi Wan's time after Revenge of the Sith (before he's seen again in New Hope) was spent on Tatooine watching Luke grow up, and aside from 10 seconds in the first episode seeing a child Luke playing like hes flying, we haven't seen him since? Why the fk has this entire series been about Leia? Don't get me wrong, shes adorable and has had some great chemistry with Ewan Mcgregor, but this just feels wrong.

Then just the overall weirdness in this.....like episode 4 taking this example, we're supposed to just forget that in Attack of the Clones Mace's Saber carved through Jangos armor in one swipe to decapitate him, but now Obi Wan needs to chop a stormtrooper's plastic armor 3 times before he falls over dead?

The only thing to save this series at this point is for Reva's colossal fuck ups because of her obi wan obsession to cause her her life in the finale, but now that its been said this show has been approved for a season 2, i doubt that will happen. Plus, i still feel that she is going to end up trying to kill Vader at the end when it's revealed that she was a Jedi Youngling that survived Anakins Jedi purge at the temple.

 

[Kev Kev]

but now that its been said this show has been approved for a season 2

seriously!? fuck yeah, i didnt hear that. good news (for me at least)

i can understand where youre coming from, and some of the other complaints ITT. it just feels like star wars to me and im digging it, despite the flaws. maybe we will see more interaction between luke and "ben" in season 2. bringing child leia in was a nice surprise for me, shes a cute kid and i think shes doin great job. and it gives little kids watching the show someone to relate to. plus bringing her in gave them a reason for obi wan to leave tatooine and actually go out on a "space adventure". otherwise it wouldve only taken place in the desert and that sounds kinda boring, and not very star wars-esque.

 

[jason10mm]

If Disney announced a new show called “Star Wars: Man Takes A Shit” and it was six hours of a guy taking a shit but Disney had made it clear that it was officially canon and teased the possibility of Nien Nunb having a cameo in a post-credits scene would you watch every episode to see how it developed the lore?

While this is funny and probably true, there is, IMHO, value in "haters" continually critiquing dog shit shows like this. In the streming medium, it's not so much about day one success, but prolonged viewership leading to continued subscription (adding "value" to the service). If folks here can convince folks WITHOUT D+ TO NOT SUBSCRIBE because they hear that Obi-wan and Book of Fett isn't even worth a one month sub, then that sends a message to Lucasarts that THEY MUST DO BETTER. If we, as lifelong Star Wars fans, want to be heard, have our voices listened to, get respect, have our diversity featured, then we gotta be vocal to make the change want to see. Acceptance of trash, or even just apathy, won't send a message.

In the old days with 22 ep seasons, a show with subpar quality like this would have died on the vine around mid season and either gotten replaced after xmas or not gotten another season. So apathy in that case alone would have worked. But in the streaming era only subscriptions really matter so cancellations and non-subbing at all are the only metrics D+ cares about. LucasArts NEEDS to see this stuff as FAILURES so they TRY HARDER. Star Wars shouldn't be a challenging propert to create for. A bit of understanding of the lore, adherence to basic concepts like plot, motivation, editing continuity, and tension. You know, elementary filmmaking principles. Clearly the support staff of these shows is compentent, for TV the effects and such are astounding. IT CAN BE DONE. But it starts with competent producers who can hire a competent showrunner with an actual idea and script writers who have some experience and actually know what they are fucking doing.

Otherwise there will be an eventual collapse of all things Star Wars and the long time fans who deserve better will get nothing at all. Folks new to Star Wars will just shrug and move on, it matters little to them.

 

[Kev Kev]

otherwise there will be an eventual collapse of all things Star Wars and the long time fans who deserve better

its over buddy. give up on star wars and move on. its not for you anymore.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

Over 5 years huh? That's like since The Force Awakens?

Yeah. I really enjoyed TFA when it came out - it had flaws sure, but I felt invested in Rey, Poe and Finn and wanted to see where their adventures would go together. I viewed it as a safe movie for Disney to reboot the franchise and I thought there was so much potential with the characters.

Nowadays, I've decided to spend my time and money on other stuff. Other than the KOTOR remake, I don't see any upcoming SW content for me.

 

[jason10mm]

its over buddy. give up on star wars and move on. its not for you anymore.

Internal consistency, clear character motivation, well paced action with meaningful consequences, creative exploration of new worlds and aliens, further examination of "the Force" and what it represents? These are things for EVERYONE.

The cartoons clearly understand this. All I want is for the live action stuff to be held to the same standard and hire some people that can make it happen instead of pooping out trash for D+. If that means 2 year gaps between shows to ensure quality, so be it. But gotta feed the streaming machine I guess and folks like you seem to be lapping it up.

 

[Kev Kev]

I guess and folks like you seem to be lapping it up.

because im enjoying it.

if i wasnt i wouldnt be watching it.

 

[Kilau]

Why you guys want to shut down criticism, how else will I know how bad something I won’t watch is??

 

[Bragr]

Internal consistency, clear character motivation, well paced action with meaningful consequences, creative exploration of new worlds and aliens, further examination of "the Force" and what it represents? These are things for EVERYONE.

The cartoons clearly understand this. All I want is for the live action stuff to be held to the same standard and hire some people that can make it happen instead of pooping out trash for D+. If that means 2 year gaps between shows to ensure quality, so be it. But gotta feed the streaming machine I guess and folks like you seem to be lapping it up.

At some point, Star Wars will be remembered for the oversaturation of lackluster content rather than the original trilogy. Like with Star Trek, which for a lot of people right now is a collection of terrible TV shows without any of the spirit of Rodenberry.

 

[BusierDonkey]

This turned out pretty much how I expected it to.

 

[NickFire]

Those Jedi trophy cases and Vader's scene at the end made that episode a solid 9-9.5 IMO. Also loved Leia's resistance to the interrogation techniques.

If anyone from Disney reads this thread, please make a show focused on the first years after Episode 3 when Vader is hunting Jedi. And make it M rated.

 

[dr_octagon]

Dear Diary,

Luke the dispshit thinks he is a pilot, fuck this babysitting. There's sand everywhere, fucking 2 suns and I can't even get blue milk.

Owen is pissy cos Anakin turned into the biggest galactic threat since space covid. How is that my fault?

I'm gonna go find some bars, Yoda and Qui Gon can get rekt.

 

[dr_octagon]

Why you guys want to shut down criticism, how else will I know how bad something I won’t watch is??

 

[Mattdaddy]

Lol some of y’all are really over thinking this. The show is fine.

Man I get suspension of disbelief has to happen to enjoy movies, and even more so for sci-fi. And Im down with that. But the storytellers at least have to try to sell it. I mean come on at least try and Ill be on board. HELP ME HELP YOU writers.

Stormtroopers for example... they are completely useless in all Star Wars movies to the point its a joke. And in other movies we've seen them get taken out in hand to hand combat... and deep down I always thought it was stupid... BUT at least they get hit with something heavy etc. Like in Rogue One she beats them down with a baton, which I actually think was dumb and wouldnt do shit but ok I'll play along, at least she hit them with something heavy whatever. But here its literally like the writers were like "She needs to get away from these stormtroopers... hmmmm... yeah just have her slap one. Hell be totally stunlocked from the epic slapping and then she can shoot him"

I mean come on that is bad writing. Thats terrible. The writer can create whatever wild scenario they want where she might escape capture and thats what we get? "Slap the stormtrooper". Lazy as fuck.

The scene in episode 3 where Obi Wan is trying to open the laser gate and cant get it open then finally shoots it.... when they are literally standing in the middle of the desert and the gate is 10 feet long. I was watching that with my wife (who's not even a nerd or a big Star Wars fan, she has no dog in the fight) and she started laughing out loud. She looked at me at goes "Why didnt they just walk around it?!?" and my first instinct was to concoct some answer that defended the show... but you cant. Like thats just dumb... its too dumb to defend.

And if it was just a few things here and there then it might be easier to ignore. Im sure you can cherry pick plenty of stuff like that from other movies. But its just a fucking BARRAGE here. Every other scene something happens that is so idiotic and logic defying, like you have to laugh. But youre not supposed to be laughing.

That jedi stasis room at the end... that could have been really dark and cool... but fuck make them look like they were prisoners. They need to look ragged and tormented. They are all decked out in full jedi regalia because its like the writers couldnt think of any other way on earth to make us realize who they were. But then it just looks laughably goofy. Were they all captured at a formal dinner and immediately plopped in there? That fuckin helmet on the padawan still just grinds my gears. At zero point in your 10 year tenure as being a tortured guest of the empires most evil beings do they take your hat off? Okayy. What a lazzzzzy ass way for them to get their point across of who these people are.

I've always been a Star Wars fan, Im down with letting some weird things fly. But this stuff is so egregiously fuckin stupid it can't be ignored. The Obi wan escape from Vader. Thats indefensible.

Then we have the most secretive Imperial base out there where all the jedi hunters live... and Obi wan is going to walk out with Leia under his trench coat with her little feet just flapping out in the breeze and her outline not even remotely hidden, Obi wan looking like he has a 100lb tumor on his thigh under that coat but nah fuck it.

Disneys best writers got in a room for days, talked it out, wrote, storyboarded... and thats it. Thats the escape plan we got. Im sure it was down to that or he was going to find a Dominos pizza outfit and bamboozle them with a delivery they didnt expect, then sneak her out in the heat retaining pizza tarp thing.

Its just amateur hour left and right to a degree you cant even fake your belief.

 

[Romulus]

Gotta agree with alot of this

 

[Kev Kev]

Man I get suspension of disbelief has to happen to enjoy movies, and even more so for sci-fi. And Im down with that. But the storytellers at least have to try to sell it. I mean come on at least try and Ill be on board. HELP ME HELP YOU writers.

Stormtroopers for example... they are completely useless in all Star Wars movies to the point its a joke. And in other movies we've seen them get taken out in hand to hand combat... and deep down I always thought it was stupid... BUT at least they get hit with something heavy etc. Like in Rogue One she beats them down with a baton, which I actually think was dumb and wouldnt do shit but ok I'll play along, at least she hit them with something heavy whatever. But here its literally like the writers were like "She needs to get away from these stormtroopers... hmmmm... yeah just have her touch one. Hell be totally stunlocked from the epic touching and then she can shoot him"

I mean come on that is bad writing. Thats terrible. The writer can create whatever wild scenario they want where she might escape capture and thats what we get? "Slap the stormtrooper". Lazy as fuck.

The scene in episode 3 where Obi Wan is trying to open the laser gate and cant get it open then finally shoots it.... when they are literally standing in the middle of the desert and the gate is 10 feet long. I was watching that with my wife (who isnt even a nerd or a big Star Wars fan, she has no dog in the fight) started laughing out loud. She looked at me at goes "Why didnt they just walk around it?!?" and my first instinct was to concoct some answer that defended the show... but you cant. Like thats just dumb... its too dumb to defend.

And if it was just a few things here and there then it might be easier to ignore. Im sure you can cherry pick plenty of stuff like that from other movies. But its just a fucking BARRAGE here. Every other scene something happens that is so idiotic and logic defying, like you have to laugh. But youre not supposed to be laughing.

That jedi stasis room at the end... that could have been really dark and cool... but fuck make them look like they were prisoners. They need to look ragged and tormented. They are all decked out in full jedi regalia because its like the writers couldnt think of any other way on earth to make us realize who they were. But then it just looks laughably goofy. Were they all captured at a formal dinner and immediately plopped in there? That fuckin helmet on the padawan still just grinds my gears. At zero point in your 10 year tenure as being a tortured guest of the empires most evil beings do they take your hat off? Okayy. What a lazzzzzy ass way for them to get their point across of who these people are.

I've always been a Star Wars fan, Im down with letting some weird things fly. But this stuff is so egregiously fuckin stupid it can't be ignored. The Obi wan escape from Vader. Thats indefensible.

Then we have the most secretive Imperial base out there where all the jedi hunters live... and Obi wan is going to walk out with Leia under his trench coat with her little feet just flapping out in the breeze and her outline not even remotely hidden, Obi wan looking like he has a 100lb tumor on his thigh under that coat but nah fuck it.

Disneys best writers got in a room for days, talked it out, wrote, storyboarded... and thats it. Thats the escape plan we got. Im sure it was down to that or he was going to find a Dominos pizza outfit and bamboozle them with a delivery they didnt expect, then sneak her out in the heat retaining pizza tarp thing.

Its just amateur hour left and right to a degree you cant even fake your belief.

its fine

 

[dr_octagon]

Kev Kev Who is your favorite star wars hero and villain?

 

[Kev Kev]

Kev Kev Who is your favorite star wars hero and villain?

never really thought about it tbh.

hard not to go straight for vader and yoda. so to be more interesting... thrawn was good in the few books i read. poe dameron from the sequel trilogy really stuck out to me. wedge antilles is an og. mara jade was great too but only read about her in a few books. and i really liked rey, despite the hate she received (well, despite the hate the entire ST received).

hard to pick. i like them all so much for different reasons.

 

[Cocksman]

I’m enjoying this show. It’s much better than Boba Shitt. so there’s that.

However , I guess I was foolish hoping for a very focused Obiwan and Anakin story. Like who the fuck cares about Reva and Leia ? The little girl is good though.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Gotta agree with alot of this

He's just grifting YT rageclicks so his opinions are invalid.

/s

its fine

How would you rank the episodes so far?