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Obsidian says it won't chase huge profits or grow aggressively, and that's how it's going to last 100 years in the RPG business: 'Are we serious? Yes'
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ElFenomeno
Member
Well yeah, there is nothing ambitious in it. Enemy variety is abysmal, NCPS are static like trees, combat is nothing to write home about, story is apparently mid/not interesting. I will stop here...Idk, I’m like four or five hours in. But if you’re going to use a quote as the crux of your position then at least read the entire thing
I've read your entire post. Well for me they're equally shit...a mediocre AAA RPG made in 7 years or a mediocre AA RPG disguised as AAA and sold for 70 bucks made in 3 years.
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tmlDan
Member
screams lack of ambition tbh, you don't need to spend a ton to have success. There are studios that don't grow at rapid rates that are hugely successful.
Guilty_AI
Member
They still knew enough by then to know the game would disappoint
Daneel Elijah
Member
It is silly because of the fact that they are not in control. Microsoft is, and they can change their expectations or kill them to hide a bad quarter. If they are lucky they can use Microsoft inertia to their advantage but Tango is proof that even a successfull game is not enough sometimes. IMHO once you are under a publisher I think that either going too big to fail or having a niche can work. Does Obsidian maintain the perception of being good at RPG when huge hits like Hogwarts, Baldur gate 3 and the witcher 3 show the "future" of the genre? And from below games like Hades?
Killjoy-NL
Member
Everybody knew. Some don't want to admit it.
There's no way these devs don't know it.
VulcanRaven
Member
That is a good strategy actually. Remedy seems to be doing that too. If budgets aren't too high its easier to make profit.
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TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Ok I see where you're coming from.
I still disagree the comments are silly. Myopic? Yes, based on your argument, which is a sound one.
That said, I do think MS needs content to continually fill GamePass, so as long as they continue to back GamePass, Obsidian will be safe as long as they don't end up putting out games that get critically panned.
GymWolf
Member
Do we know the budget of avowed? Because kc2 was just 40 mil.
And how you spend your budget is kinda the point.
I know american devs take much more money but after seeing the results, maybe some people should start looking in the mirror in the morning and evaluate if it's right to ask such money or maybe they should not split the team to begin with.
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geary
Member
Probably more because is based in California. I would go to say maybe ~50-60
It doesnt have mocap since that's a pit for bugets...
If game is 70 on steam, minus the steam cut, let's say the revenue is 50 euros per unit, meaning they need 1 mil to recover budget...Let's say 2 million. I think it's reachable.
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simpatico
Member
I didn't see ambitious scope in those. New Vegas they pulled off a narrative web that allowed you to kill every AI in the game, or none, and still get a coherent ending. Alpha Protocol was a moonshot (and a miss), but I supported and applauded the moonshot. The isometric stuff just felt like safe plays. We've got an infinite number of indie studios who can provide us with safe plays. I hoped for more from Obsidian.
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Remedy is independant, ofc they won't bet too much on one project, but from Obsidian standpoint i don't really understand.
And regarding the quality of the games, i don't think their current strategy is working. Avowed shouldn't have taken so many years to make just for this result (even though this kind of game is pretty complex), something is not right. It will probably be the same for TOW 2.
The problem is, games like Avowed or TOW 2 are perceived like low budget effort, when there is still a 100+ people team behind, that worked on it for 5 years. The games are actually not ugly looking, you can tell there has been some work put into the art direction, the graphics, but i feel this work not only didn't pay off (because even if not ugly, the games are still lagging behind the competition), but the time they took to actually craft an only decent combat system with some sense of feeling, open areas with decent graphics, it was still too much for them to the extent that they couldn't make more than a 30 hours game (a 30 hours fucking RPG in this day and age where even God of War is 50 hours long), with a half baked world, dumb down interactions and systems (no stealing etc, it's even more simplistic in Avowed than in TOW, they keep regressing), average story, forgettable quests that lack an intricate narrative design.
New Vegas had a sprawling open world with several hundred hours of content, i don't know how many factions, locations, quests, even though it was seen as a technical mess and graphically outdated. The depth of the game outshined its shortcomings. The shortcomings actually existed because the devs worked 100% on the strenght of the game. And it's not the case anymore, the price they pay just for trying to make a game that's not completely outdated is so huge it takes a toll on every other aspect.
So in my opinion, either they come back to very low budget CRPG like Pillars of Eternity or Tyranny, or they get the full force of the studio on one game, or hire more people and make something ambitious. The in-between doesn't work.
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BigBeauford
Member
"We meant to sell 500,000 copies, it's all part of the plan".
panda-zebra
Member
It looks like a safe and calculated strategy to tick over both under the wing and expecting gaze of MS in uncertain times.
Don't grow the studio - "partner" aka outsource.
Don't reach for the stars when the ceiling is enough to keep you in the black.
Don't roll the dice on a high stakes, half-decade+ AAA magnum opus with high potential for development hell/failure when 3 smaller efforts in the same timeframe validate your existence as part of the Game Pass machine.
It's not very exciting and not something I'd cheer or champion as someone who values the heights of Obsidian's historic efforts, but it's more likely to keep the lights on and pay salaries.
It'll be less the performance of their upcoming titles and more Game Pass' continued existence that dictates the success or failure of this plan.
Don't grow the studio - "partner" aka outsource.
Don't reach for the stars when the ceiling is enough to keep you in the black.
Don't roll the dice on a high stakes, half-decade+ AAA magnum opus with high potential for development hell/failure when 3 smaller efforts in the same timeframe validate your existence as part of the Game Pass machine.
It's not very exciting and not something I'd cheer or champion as someone who values the heights of Obsidian's historic efforts, but it's more likely to keep the lights on and pay salaries.
It'll be less the performance of their upcoming titles and more Game Pass' continued existence that dictates the success or failure of this plan.
Klayzer
Member
Definitely true. I'm looking forward to games from both parties.
Not everyone can completely reconstitute their studios in Eastern Europe, can they?
KCD2 had 250 employees to throw at the game. More artists, more programmers, more everything. Lower budget because of much lower salaries.
pudel
Member
I dont agree. CRPG's were dead for minimum a decade before Pillars. Pillars of Eternity revived the whole genre. I wouldnt call that a "safe play". Also Tyranny was something special as it wanted you to play the bad guys....not even optional...but as main theme. Thats not a "safe play" as well. Or maybe I dont understand what you mean with "safe play". Avowed on the other hand looks like the mother of "safe play"...yep.
Kacho
Gold Member
Obsidian was down bad in the mid-2010s. They ran a kickstarter for Pillars and it was successful for them. Then they followed that up with two flops (Tyranny, POE2) and their future was in doubt again. When Microsoft copped the studio I thought they would finally get the resources they needed to take up a notch and do more ambitious things.
Daneel Elijah
Member
I hope that you are right. I still think that it is silly to talk about longevity when you are not in charge, but I admit that I like a lot of what they are saying. In their position I would try to create a new IP to be more like the many Japanese studios that have found their audience with games like Disgaea, Yakusa, Tales of...
GymWolf
Member
Then maybe american devs should lower their salaries.
I know that cost of life and other factors are a thing but those things AND overpayed devs can be both true you know.
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All of this started when Microsoft cancelled their biggest contract ever for the AAA Stormlands lol. They almost destroyed the studio doing so, then a few years later they bought them.
sendit
Member
They most likely have the resources they need under Microsofts umbrella. However, they are happy with being mid.
Kacho
Gold Member
Oh yeah... I totally forgot about that.
Stormlands and the million-man raid: Obsidian's cancelled Xbox One exclusive
Earlier this week, I got the chance to talk to Obsidian about its brand new role-playing game Avowed. This is the game …
www.eurogamer.net
Madserb2023
Member
We have seen exactly what Microsoft thinks of a mild success. Heck, we have seen what they think of a success. If Outer Worlds 2 isn't more than a mild success, they will go the same way as Arkane and Tango.
H From Steps
Member
Without the good enough games, we can never truly appreciate the masterpieces
it's a solid foundation that makes the extraordinary shine. Glad they chose a side now we know what to expect.
it's a solid foundation that makes the extraordinary shine. Glad they chose a side now we know what to expect.
DragonNCM
Member
Sweet dream there Obsidian.....and you wake up and see Game Pass logo on your game & you know it was just a dream....
Obsidian says it won't chase huge profits or grow aggressively, and that's how it's going to last 100 years in the RPG business: 'Are we serious? Yes'
The Avowed studio expects each game to be a "mild success" and budgets accordingly, say company leaders who want it to reach its 100th birthday.www.pcgamer.com
The Avowed studio expects each game to be a "mild success" and budgets accordingly, say company leaders who want it to reach its 100th birthday.
In a talk at this week's D.I.C.E. Summit, an industry conference whose theme this year is sustainability, Obsidian Entertainment VP of operations Marcus Morgan and VP of development Justin Britch said they want the Fallout: New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity, and most recently Avowed studio to make it to its 100th birthday. Obsidian is 22 years old now, so that's 78 to go, and the VPs think it can get there by staying lean, holding onto talent, setting realistic sales expectations, and not going all-in on delivering huge profits.
Obsidian's 100-year plan isn't—and I hope this isn't too disappointing—a decade-by-decade breakdown of future projects that ends somewhere around Fallout: Old Vegas (I'm assuming that pre-apocalyptic settings are popular in 2103). It's more of a thought exercise, but Morgan and Britch said that they genuinely want Obsidian to continue beyond their lifespans. "Are we serious? … Yes," said Morgan. And why not? Nintendo was founded in 1889.
One of the pillars of the plan is staying "lean and invested," meaning small enough that none of Obsidian's employees feel like a cog in a machine. Morgan and Britch said that in recent years they'd been considering opening multiple international offices, but in the end decided to partner with existing studios rather than risk weakening Obsidian's culture by getting too big.
Leanness can also refer to Obsidian's games: It doesn't aim for unprecedented scale or the most advanced graphics, and before it greenlights a game, Britch says the studio spends a lot of time determining how much to invest in the project with the assumption that it will be a "mild success," not a smash hit.
Obsidian has released three games in the 2020s so far: survival game Grounded (we reviewed it positively), narrative adventure game Pentiment (we reviewed it positively), and now Avowed (another good one). Some studios don't even announce a new game in that amount of time.
Among other things not mentioned here, Morgan and Britch's plan includes building institutional knowledge by aiming for "the lowest turnover rate in the industry" and continuing to release the kinds of games they're known for (player freedom, worldbuilding, all of that) at a consistent pace, "not rushed, but often."
Britch described his vision for Obsidian as a 1973 VW bus with a trunk full of tools and a manual that's being continuously annotated, and summed up the plan by saying that Obsidian is more or less going to keep doing what it's been doing, "not trying to grow aggressively, expand our team size, or make super profitable games." It's aiming for somewhat profitable games, then, made well and at a consistent pace.
semiconscious
Member
mentioned this yesterday:
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Unknown Soldier
Member
I didn't think they'd make it to next year
But for some reason Ninja Theory is still alive so maybe Obsidian will survive too
Shrap
Member
This has to be some sort of damage control for Avowed failing to meet expectations.
That game was not a "mild" project though - it was a full AAA game. At least 5 years in development, 150+ staff and a budget estimated from 80-100 million. I highly doubt it will be a financial success after seeing the reviews which must have Obsidian sweating a bit.
That game was not a "mild" project though - it was a full AAA game. At least 5 years in development, 150+ staff and a budget estimated from 80-100 million. I highly doubt it will be a financial success after seeing the reviews which must have Obsidian sweating a bit.
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ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Opportunity cost. I don't think that the Outer Worlds was mega profitable as it was. Pentiment was (hopefully) cheap af, but almost literally no one played it and the vast majority of those who did would've played it through a Gamepass subscription they already had. Avowed is not going to make its money back in any serious accounting formula; and Outer Worlds 2 isn't getting anywhere near the numbers of the first game despite taking longer to make at post-coof spending levels.
It's not outside the realm of possibility that they would come up red on a balance sheet if Microsoft even bothered to make one. Seems to me this cruise control, loser mentality is only rubber stamped by Xbox because it comes from leadership.
More likely though, they probably are profitable, but it's going to be negligible. And the Xbox division as a whole cannot get away with barely being profitable when Microsoft can spend that money elsewhere. This was already telegraphed by Nadella in the latest earnings report.
And Remedy's on the brink. The Max Payne remakes and Control 2 are going to have to do very well. If it wasn't for the fact that they're based in Finland as opposed to anywhere in the US, they'd already been purchased by either Sony or MS or shut down.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
What kind of attitude is this…?
Just set the bar low? Everyone gets a participation award?
You’re running a business and your business is now owned by Microsoft. Whether you want to remain weak and small with your vision is entirely dependent upon whether Microsoft allows you to continue failing with mid-tier forgettable games like Avowed and Outer Worlds
Killjoy-NL
Member
Wouldn't be surprised if MS/Xbox is gonna clean ship soon.
What kind of attitude is this…?
Just set the bar low? Everyone gets a participation award?
You’re running a business and your business is now owned by Microsoft. Whether you want to remain weak and small with your vision is entirely dependent upon whether Microsoft allows you to continue failing with mid-tier forgettable games like Avowed and Outer Worlds
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I think they have a 2-4 year grace period to see how games perform on PlayStation as multiplatform before taking the axe to all these massively underperforming studios
Hellblade 2, Indy, Avowed….these are all pretty big failures commercially with large-ish budgets
No way will all of them be in business for long unless they turn things around
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
If they have another set of quarters like the last one, it's done. I actually think it could get worse from here.
diffusionx
Gold Member
If shit like Avowed and Outer World is what Obsidian is now, I don't want it for the next 100 days let alone 100 years
j0hnnix
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Mild Success™
They're literally bathing in mediocrity as a rally cry. Wild.
BosmerCulter
Member
I don't like it but I think they right.
The Outer Worlds, despite what people think, is a huge financial success: +5 million sales for a new IP barely AA budget-wise, developped in one year and half WITH the inclusion on Game Pass D1 and the fact that it was a one-year exclusive on EGS
Grounded, which fits into this strategy, is also a huge success and probably their most played game ever (and I think it may be the biggest Xbox success outside of Forza this generation? At least in terms of ROI). MS even planning an animated series on it.
After two decades to be constantly on the verge of bankruptcy, they have never been this successful as a company since they adopted this strategy. Avowed is another fish of course (more development time + more developers + more mixed reception) but we have already seen that Microsoft does not care about the number of Metacritic or awards (look at what they did to Tango), only the GP numbers interest them and we will see how it goes in the coming weeks.
I am sad that they are taking this path but for the moment it works:
is this going to mark Obsidian post-Microsoft acquisitio in the annals of video game history? No
Will it allow them to survive the years to come? Unless there is a big paradigm shift at MS or a big crisis, I think so
Afterwards like any strategy, it can work for a few years but not all the time (ex: Ubisoft and their Open-World games)
The Outer Worlds, despite what people think, is a huge financial success: +5 million sales for a new IP barely AA budget-wise, developped in one year and half WITH the inclusion on Game Pass D1 and the fact that it was a one-year exclusive on EGS
Grounded, which fits into this strategy, is also a huge success and probably their most played game ever (and I think it may be the biggest Xbox success outside of Forza this generation? At least in terms of ROI). MS even planning an animated series on it.
After two decades to be constantly on the verge of bankruptcy, they have never been this successful as a company since they adopted this strategy. Avowed is another fish of course (more development time + more developers + more mixed reception) but we have already seen that Microsoft does not care about the number of Metacritic or awards (look at what they did to Tango), only the GP numbers interest them and we will see how it goes in the coming weeks.
I am sad that they are taking this path but for the moment it works:
is this going to mark Obsidian post-Microsoft acquisitio in the annals of video game history? No
Will it allow them to survive the years to come? Unless there is a big paradigm shift at MS or a big crisis, I think so
Afterwards like any strategy, it can work for a few years but not all the time (ex: Ubisoft and their Open-World games)
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Their formula to success is how to entertain within 5 minutes. It's very different approach than western RPGs where you usually get lost for hours and have no fucking clue what your doing.
Killjoy-NL
Member
And people are getting mad at me for saying Xbox excels at mediocrity.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
Not if Satya has a word.
They don't own themselves anymore. Their future depends on whether MS decide they are worth still keeping around and for a trillion dollar company like MS "mild success" isn't something they like to hear.
They don't own themselves anymore. Their future depends on whether MS decide they are worth still keeping around and for a trillion dollar company like MS "mild success" isn't something they like to hear.
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