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[Fusion Pizza]

This doesn't make any sense. If education is a right, then college, by extension, is a right too. You just don't have to exercise that right if you choose not to.

Basic Education up to high school level is a right, Higher education like college is a choice.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Europeans pay a lot more in taxes, that's why.

in proportion to the benefits they receive, it's way, way worth it. We pay taxes and get almost nothing except the biggest military ever, while the money we 'save' does not help in any way to afford things that are simply unaffordable; Healthcare and Education.

Oh, we did get to give the Banks and Executives record raises with the bailout, see, tax money at work.


It's not Europe is socialist utopia, they just have their economies generally structured in a way that these things are available to people. The piece of mind alone is worth the taxes, do you think a German ever has to make the decision between paying for gasoline, getting healthcare or sending their kids to school? In my home this is a constant struggle, 'what the fuck are we going to do?' is basically the mindset of most of lower middle class Americans I know.

Why the hell do us Americans not have these basic opportunities? These weirdos claim opportunities but they are at the bottom of a barrel of shit, I'm in Europe, i'm seeing it work every single day of my life and it shames me to the core that in the United States, a nation far more rich proportionally to population than any European country, can't provide the same basic functions to our own people.

I honestly think it's some sort of strange psychological complex we have collectively, that deep down we just don't like the idea of others benefitting at the so called expense of the corporate elite.

 

[The Librarian]

Basic Education up to high school level is a right, Higher education like college is a choice.

But at the same time, no one should go broke because they want to pursue a higher education. We need to subsidize all higher-level education just like the K-12 grades.

 

[noah111]

But at the same time, no one should go broke because they want to pursue a higher education. We need to subsidize all higher-level education just like the K-12 grades.

That's basically what it all comes down to, in the end. Needlessly suffering over something that should be a lot simpler in pursuing.

 

[discoalucard]

Basic Education up to high school level is a right, Higher education like college is a choice.

Considering a degree is practically mandatory for any white collar job nowadays, can college really still considered higher education any more?

 

[AndyD]

Considering a degree is practically mandatory for any white collar job nowadays, can college really still considered higher education any more?

College no, but post graduate yes. Lots of people go in debt over law/med/grad school after going to a state college for comparatively cheap. I have friends who walked into law school with 0 debt and walked out with 150k and a degree and no job.

 

[kame-sennin]

Is this likely?

More likely now than ever before.

 

[Esiquio]

in proportion to the benefits they receive, it's way, way worth it. We pay taxes and get almost nothing except the biggest military ever, while the money we 'save' does not help in any way to afford things that are simply unaffordable; Healthcare and Education.

Oh, we did get to give the Banks and Executives record raises with the bailout, see, tax money at work.


It's not Europe is socialist utopia, they just have their economies generally structured in a way that these things are available to people. The piece of mind alone is worth the taxes, do you think a German ever has to make the decision between paying for gasoline, getting healthcare or sending their kids to school? In my home this is a constant struggle, 'what the fuck are we going to do?' is basically the mindset of most of lower middle class Americans I know.

Why the hell do us Americans not have these basic opportunities? These weirdos claim opportunities but they are at the bottom of a barrel of shit, I'm in Europe, i'm seeing it work every single day of my life and it shames me to the core that in the United States, a nation far more rich proportionally to population than any European country, can't provide the same basic functions to our own people.

I honestly think it's some sort of strange psychological complex we have collectively, that deep down we just don't like the idea of others benefitting at the so called expense of the corporate elite.

Americans get almost nothing. Are you fucking kidding me. Seriously. Holy freaking shit, it's like you literally have never seen where the U.S. budget goes and are completely ignorant of all our social programs. This is why we have arguments are shit like this, people don't take the time to research anything and just parrot bullshit.

 

[richiek]

Europeans pay a lot more in taxes, that's why.

Isn't that the whole point of OWS? That the rich aren't paying enough in taxes?

 

[Frank the Great]

Americans get almost nothing. Are you fucking kidding me. Seriously. Holy freaking shit, it's like you literally have never seen where the U.S. budget goes and are completely ignorant of all our social programs. This is why we have arguments are shit like this, people don't take the time to research anything and just parrot bullshit.

plus people fail to realize that in the US, one third of our (federal) tax dollars goes directly into the military. is this true for any european country? also, you're right in that we do have a ton of social programs that most people ignore unless they directly benefit them. and a lot of times even people that DO directly benefit from them are ignorant of their existence.

that said, our individual tax burden is one of the lowest of any developed nation. if we want to live like europeans, we can do it by raising taxes and adjusting the priorities of government away from military and towards socialism.

 

[FlyinJ]

I think a lot of people want to know what gives the people demanding these things a right to demand them from people who did not have the same programs and treatment in previous generations. I was talking to my neighbor about this and he said that he wanted to know why the people protesting think that they should be given things that his generation had to work for. He asked where the sense of entitlement comes from.

I think that Americans should have access to taxpayer funded college education because it is an investment in the future of the nation. I would expect in return that people who use the benefit take it seriously and strive to make the best of it, ultimately taking responsibility for growing the next generation. I wonder what our young people would do with such an opportunity.

The only reason people have this idea of "entitlements=leeching from the system" is from decades of propaganda by the elite to solidify this attitude into the American conscious. The only people who are contesting these ideas are either filthy rich or complete suckers.

It's a very unfortunate situation that hopefully is now being changed.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Europeans pay a lot more in taxes, that's why.

We pay more taxes, but you pay more for education and health insurance which are free here. Extra taxes get us free healthcare, free education, very cheap daycare centers, comfortable retirement, and get this, when you get old, the commune sends people to clean your flat, give you a bath and do your shopping. At least here in Denmark we get all these, and then some. So friend we pay more taxes, but in the overall picture you pay much more than we do.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Americans get almost nothing. Are you fucking kidding me. Seriously. Holy freaking shit, it's like you literally have never seen where the U.S. budget goes and are completely ignorant of all our social programs. This is why we have arguments are shit like this, people don't take the time to research anything and just parrot bullshit.

in comparison to what the Europeans get? yeah, we get a pittance.

I'm sorry, but when we live in a country where someone has to use their sick days as maternity leave, i'm not going give any respect to this.

I'm not talking about minor programs such as for homelesness (no, not throwing them in jail), scholarships, urban outreach, and the bit of subsidized housing and other things which are nice, i'm talking about wide reaching matters like affordable healthcare, education and infrastructure.

 

[Enron]

I attend state University. NAU tuition is 5,000 per semester.

ASU tuition is 8,000 per semester.

are you going to say with a straight fucking face that that is affordable? for anybody? fuck you dude, seriously.

and scholarships are not systematic, they exist because they will be rarely distributed. So it's meaningless in any systematic manner because they are rare by nature, even if everyone were to get perfect GPA's (like i've had for the past 3 years, btw) there'd not be 20,000,000 scholarships to everyone.


And saying "People graduate without massive debt all the time!" is so fucking stupid to even have to be said, ever, holy shit. People shouldn't be in debt AT ALL for attending state university dude, hollllllllllly shit. This isn't prestigious private school, this isn't Ivy League, this isn't business school, this is Public University. i mean, wow.


We've really gone off the deep end here, fellas.

Is that all you have? Insults? You sound like you have zero understanding of what college actually costs to be saying things like "going to state school shouldn't put you into debt". That SMACKS of someone who only has an idea of how he thinks the world SHOULD work, not how it actually DOES. Also ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE I KNOW A GUY etc. etc.

In the State of Georgia, for example, if you maintain a B average at a state school they pay for you ENTIRE tuition and fees. That's ENTIRE, as in 100% free tuition. I think that's pretty affordable, dont you?

For those that aren't lucky enough to qualify for that, though, currently at the University of Georgia a semester costs you around 4300 in tuition. That is fairly affordable. And then on top of that, there are Pell Grants and scholarships that are available for those with a need. Many other states have similar stories.

College is not out of the reach of everyone like you claim it is. If it were, enrollment wouldn't be at an all-time high. According to the NCES, in this decade alone college enrollment increased 38%.

There's a good tuition and fees comparison here of a sampling of typical state universities. These figures are for an ENTIRE school year, not semesters.

 

[Slayven]

Is that all you have? Insults? Also ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE I KNOW A GUY etc. etc.

In the State of Georgia, for example, if you maintain a B average at a state school they pay for you ENTIRE tuition and fees. That's ENTIRE, as in 100% free tuition. I think that's pretty affordable, dont you?

For those that aren't lucky enough to qualify for that, though, currently at the University of Georgia a semester costs you around 4300 in tuition. That is fairly affordable. And then on top of that, there are Pell Grants and scholarships that are available for those with a need. Many other states have similar stories.

College is not out of the reach of everyone like you claim it is. If it were, enrollment wouldn't be at an all-time high. According to the NCES, in this decade alone college enrollment increased 38%.

I love HOPE.

 

[Enron]

Well that makes masters and phd degrees rights too which I don't agree with. The right and responsibility is educating children. Once you are an adult, it's time for you to make choices. I do agree that there is a sense of entitlement in the generation just going to and finishing college. I've heard the term 'the don't yell at me generation' and I think it's fits to a degree. Sometime I wonder if it really is the internet; that they grew up with easy answers and high level of convenience and they don't function well outside of a very small comfort zone. I went back to school and attended with lots of people much younger than myself and sometimes I was amazed by how quick they would give-up or complain.

This, 1000x this.

 

[Vicetrailia]

From how I see it everyone in America works hard to live. It's a tough country in ways.

That whole "work harder and you'll be fine" is a sort of cop out. Everyone works hard to live. Even my CEO says that at life, he's not really working harder than someone whose trying to meet ends meet. It's a different circumstance.

 

[Myansie]

Well that makes masters and phd degrees rights too which I don't agree with. The right and responsibility is educating children. Once you are an adult, it's time for you to make choices. I do agree that there is a sense of entitlement in the generation just going to and finishing college. I've heard the term 'the don't yell at me generation' and I think it's fits to a degree. Sometime I wonder if it really is the internet; that they grew up with easy answers and high level of convenience and they don't function well outside of a very small comfort zone. I went back to school and attended with lots of people much younger than myself and sometimes I was amazed by how quick they would give-up or complain.

If someone does a Masters or PHD they are studying a new area. It is new and unproven. No company is going to pay for that and only the most dedicated individual will pay themself through it. The only modern institution that can breed this type of forward thinking research is a government. The James Webb Telescope comes to mind. No company is going to pay for that and yet it is one of the most important projects currently undertaken in the world. The LHC comes to mind as another excellent example.

My own country is incredibly short sighted when it comes to pumping money into Universities for research. In the long term you are limiting your future. Are we entitled to answers to life, the universe and everything in it? Yeah, I'd love to see my tax dollars go there.

James Webb Forever!!!!!!

 

[empty vessel]

The only reason people have this idea of "entitlements=leeching from the system" is from decades of propaganda by the elite to solidify this attitude into the American conscious. The only people who are contesting these ideas are either filthy rich or complete suckers.

It's a very unfortunate situation that hopefully is now being changed.

This is the correct answer.

But at the same time, no one should go broke because they want to pursue a higher education. We need to subsidize all higher-level education just like the K-12 grades.

So is this. And this is key, I think. The question is whether we structure our society in ways that generally make life easier for the overwhelming majority of us (the point of society) or needlessly more difficult. Beware those who admonish you to needlessly struggle.

 

[Fusebox]

I could never understand why middle and lower class America would constantly vote against their own best interests until I read this book:

 

[Caddle]

I like to believe that I pay enough money to have free health care and attend college for free. Let's see here, I make $110,000 a years, after taxes I go home with about $60,000, nope not enough, tax me some more New York.

 

[Totakeke]

Foreign Affairs came up with several articles today, pretty much negative against the movement.

Well-reasoned writings or articles full of baseless assumptions?

The solution, however, is to rely more on capitalism. The seminal economic event of the early twenty-first century is not the financial crisis and the recession but the entry to the global labor market of billions of workers in China, India, and elsewhere. The simplest economics suggest that this added competition will lower the relative market earnings of unskilled laborers and raise the return to higher-skilled workers and capital investment.

This is bad news for poor wage-earners and an advantage to those with human and financial capital. Progressives have reacted by calling for pure redistribution, empowering unionized labor, or attempting to close U.S. borders to the flows of goods, capital, and labor. But global market forces will overwhelm such ill-conceived government attempts to reverse economic fundamentals.

A better strategy would be to harness those very market forces by building human and financial capital. Fundamental reforms to the K-12 education system that would emphasize parental choice and reward teacher performance would be a good place to start; among other pluses, Republicans and Democrats now agree on the basic merits of such changes.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...-street-gets-wrong-about-inequality?page=show

When one raises this issue among economists, one discovers that they tend to feel that, in some way or other, income inequalities ought to have a significant relation to other larger issues such as the rate of economic growth, economic stability or instability, social and historical stability or instability, or even that sense of well-being we vaguely call "happiness" or "contentment." And yet it is astonishing how little by way of any such relationships economic and social research have come up with. Increases and decreases in income inequalities, as conventionally measured, appear to be indifferently compatible with social turbulence as with social stability, with economic decline as with economic growth, with political order as with political chaos, with an increase in individual and social pathologies (e.g., suicide, alcoholism, drug addiction, crime) as with a decrease. Inequality, one gets the impression, is an important issue for today's social scientists despite the fact that such importance escapes all empirical verification.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/136612/irving-kristol/why-inequality-doesnt-matter

If the protesters want to fix the symbiosis between Wall Street and Washington, the first thing they need to do is recognize the disease. The disease is not too much capitalism but too little. If firms that fund bad investments by other firms lost all their money, they would either disappear or learn to be more prudent. Washington needs to be less involved with Wall Street, not more. We need less crony capitalism and more of the real thing. We need to demand of our politicians that they stop bailing out losers 100 cents on the dollar. If we keep subsidizing recklessness, we will keep getting more of it, and the rest of us will pay the price.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...gtons-history-of-financial-bailouts?page=show

 

[RustyNails]

I was watching Fox News' report on OWS protestors. Unsurprisingly, it was biased as fuck. They had Geraldo Rivera interviewing some dudes and a Republican congressman who pops out of nowhere and drops Fox News talking points ("pitting americans against each other", "class warfare", "incoherant"). Geraldo was making a big deal about protestors camping in the park with the plastic tarps, insinuating that lots of sex is going on underneath the sheets. In fact, he mentioned Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll more than half a dozen times.

I wanted to hurl something at the TV but I'm in a motel so I'd have to pay for it.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Foreign Affairs came up with several articles today, pretty much negative against the movement.

Well-reasoned writings or articles full of baseless assumptions?



http://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...-street-gets-wrong-about-inequality?page=show



http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/136612/irving-kristol/why-inequality-doesnt-matter



http://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...gtons-history-of-financial-bailouts?page=show

Yeah, no.

 

[alstein]

In the State of Georgia, for example, if you maintain a B average at a state school they pay for you ENTIRE tuition and fees. That's ENTIRE, as in 100% free tuition. I think that's pretty affordable, dont you?
.

That's one state, and the costs in most other states are much higher then the 4300 you mentioned. They're slightly more expensive here, but NY/CA it's real expensive.

 

[AlexMogil]

I could never understand why middle and lower class America would constantly vote against their own best interests until I read this book:

Why in the fuck would I read that when I am *surrounded* by it.

 

[Fusebox]

Lol true, but I'm not from the US so it was a real eye-opener for me.

 

[outunderthestars]

College is affordable if you do it right. I am in the process of going back to school. Two years at a community college then two years at App State.

Grants covered both of the years of community college. App State is an incredibly affordable school with tuition of $1500 a semester (plus $1300 in fees) so around $6000 a year. App State even provides text books as part of tuition. Grants once again cover almost all of that, and I work a part time job to cover the rest. I'll graduate in 2013 without a dime of student debt.

Just because some colleges are absurdly expensive doesn't mean that they all are.

That's one state, and the costs in most other states are much higher then the 4300 you mentioned. They're slightly more expensive here, but NY/CA it's real expensive.

Move to a state with cheaper education. Work there for two years to establish in state status, then go to school.



As for the Georgia model, it has led to a higher dropout rate. The state currently loses $237 million a year to kids who go to college for free then drop out within the first two years.

I still say that government grant money given to students who drop out needs to be converted into loans that must be repaid.

 

[Korey]

So this movement's been going on a while, and I still don't know exactly what the objective of it is, other than to complain about how things are.

Are there any specific demands?

The movement could also use some sort of figurehead, imo

 

[Spokker]

Two years at a community college then two years at App State.

And studies have shown that you will not take a big hit in your lifetime wages by starting at a community college. It's a perfectly affordable and functionally identical alternative to the first two years of coursework at any expensive university.

These people who whine about undergrad debt don't get my sympathy if they didn't first go to CC.

 

[alstein]

So this movement's been going on a while, and I still don't know exactly what the objective of it is, other than to complain about how things are.

Are there any specific demands?

The movement could also use some sort of figurehead, imo

Right now it's a bunch of groups, with an attempt to form something coherent. There are so many things messed up that it's hard to figure out just one. There is one demand in general that is wanted though:

Everyone seems to want an end to "corporate personhood" and corporate money entirely out of politics (and union money also)

 

[Korey]

Right now it's a bunch of groups, with an attempt to form something coherent. There are so many things messed up that it's hard to figure out just one. There is one demand in general that is wanted though:

Everyone seems to want an end to "corporate personhood" and corporate money entirely out of politics (and union money also)

That's so vague though. It's like yelling at the sky.

They should try to get formally organized...otherwise it seems like a massive waste of all the occupiers' time

I'm sure someone has already suggested this though..lol

 

[ezrarh]

How is that vague? Getting money out of politics would be a good start, the best start even. It's not very likely to happen but once you get people into power that are beholden to the general public and not the rich that donate to their campaigns, things might start getting better.

 

[Korey]

How is that vague? Getting money out of politics would be a good start, the best start even. It's not very likely to happen but once you get people into power that are beholden to the general public and not the rich that donate to their campaigns, things might start getting better.

You don't think "getting money out of politics" is a vague demand?

 

[rdrr gnr]

You don't think "getting money out of politics" is a vague demand?

Well you have to realize there are dozens of ways to go about this. The general philosophy of "get money out of politics" is supported, but the exact mechanism to do so isn't.

For example, having a mantra of "stop corporate personhood" means jackshit to someone who has no idea what "corporate personhood" means (even if they support it ideologically/if asked), whereas, "get money out of politics" does.

The efficacy of these unspecific slogans are contingent upon two assumptions: 1) Simplified or general wording will attract those who are inexperienced with technical political discourse 2) The listener will ask logical follow-up questions.

Obviously this rhetorical choice has negative consequences as well i.e. people don't know specifics when asked and not having a tenable objective mitigates any chance of policy change.

 

[Door2Dawn]

opps wrong thread

 

[Karma Kramer]

You don't think "getting money out of politics" is a vague demand?

If you can agree on this "vague" demand and you feel it is important, then you can choose to influence the implementation of a policy of your liking by being an activist and contributing to this "vague" movement. That is if you feel you hold some responsibility in our society to be pro-active. The movement opens up the discussion. The world welcomes you to improve it.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

"move to another state with cheaper tuition"

what kind of solution is that? seriously?

Again, the point is to have University education be affordable everywhere, for everyone. I'm not talking free, i'm talking affordable. It's all i've been saying. $600-800 tuition and remove the book cartels so that we can simply afford the books. I don't think anyone denies that the American book cartels are a good part of the unaffordability of our education, the control they have is disgusting.

You're offering all these other options that are by the way STILL more expensive than most world universities and far more of a hassle. I'm more than willing to put the effort in, but these solutions work for few people at a time, not systematically spread for the entire populace.


I place such an emphasis on education because first, it is a right, every other civilized country has AFFORDABLE or FREE state University, Trade and every sort of educational institution. These are investments into the future, and gives each person the chance to better themselves without having to spend even a months wages on tuition.

It's really only in America, and seems to be only Americans who are disagreeing with me on this fundamental concept. And we are seeing how well unaffordable education has brought us into the future, a generation of monoglottal, unskilled labourers working minimum wage because even the thought of community college was far too expensive. It's tragic.

And even with that, individuals with educations will simply be better, happier people despite whether they are world class entrepeneurs or simply whatever they've chanced to be. Isn't this the type of society we want? isn't this the point of society? to create a common good among all?


I'm happy for those who trump so loudly how they've gone through this and that without debt, that's awesome, but clearly millions aren't so lucky, or fuck if you want, aren't so smart because clearly if we get debt in this system we're dipshits right? i wouldn't want to misinterpret. But again, simply, the point is that for everyone, everywhere, state University education should be affordable for everyone and not an organized racket that collaborates with cartels.


I'm seeing it work right now as I type In Germany, and they absolutely love it and I don't think a single german i've met would ever want it any other way. Why don't Americans deserve the same?

How can I live in a country where the thought of affording healthcare, education and simply to live isn't on the collective consciousness, and then go back to America where we have clowns trying to tell me that this shit is just fantasy and those in America not successful, who don't have this or that, are dipshit idiots who deserve it?

 

[akira28]

Random complaint heard on random news show about protests, "These are the laziest protesters I've ever seen. All they do is sit. They're not even handing out flyers to the passing office workers."

 

[Karma Kramer]

Alpha laying it down

 

[alstein]

That's so vague though. It's like yelling at the sky.

They should try to get formally organized...otherwise it seems like a massive waste of all the occupiers' time

I'm sure someone has already suggested this though..lol

I can say that there is at least one attempt going on to something big. The problem is it takes time to get to a consensus on what exactly are the best demands/proposals.

It's a lot harder to propose fixes to a system then just saying no to everything or going back to the old ideas like the Tea-Party could. That doesn't mean the OWS movement is invalid- it just has a much tougher hill to climb, especiallly with both Fox and the mainstream media against it.

 

[maladroid]

I place such an emphasis on education because first, it is a right, every other civilized country except I believe Australia has AFFORDABLE or FREE state University, Trade and every sort of educational institution. These are investments into the future, and gives each person the chance to better themselves without having to spend even a months wages on tuition.

I was with you until this. Where is this coming from?

 

[Maddness]

Is anyone occupying to rid the world of student loan debt? If so, you are awesome.

 

[Mush]

The greatest thing to come out of this whole shemozzle.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=luusm0mGkMg

 

[Fusebox]

Alpha dun goofed, Australia has always had dirt cheap education.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

my mistake! Australia was with a conversation I had with some Ozzies i trusted, they were saying it was normal for a few thousand dollars of tuition. sorry for the false statement, i should have validated it with five seconds of research but i didn't think it was necessary

and ultimately that just makes it more poignant, and more sad.

Honestly truly, what is the reason that you Americans don't want affordable University education all around, for everyone? When these alternatives are more expensive than a Czech pays for University in Prague, it's saddening.

 

[Fusebox]

Well a few thousand for a degree sounds about right, and you only have to start paying it back when you're earning a high enough wage too.

 

[SmokyDave]

Random complaint heard on random news show about protests, "These are the laziest protesters I've ever seen. All they do is sit. They're not even handing out flyers to the passing office workers."

I'd say that was a fair complaint. There are protesters 'occupying' my cities market square and it basically just looks like a squat for unemployed people. No placards, no flyers, just some unwashed people in tents. The missus actually said "whatever they are in favour of, I'm against" until I told her what they were about. It's not a good way to protest.

I did get some giggles from all the McDonalds and Starbucks cups in and around the tents though. I'm sure they were being ironic.

 

[Witchfinder General]

Alpha dun goofed, Australia has always had dirt cheap education.

Uh, Australian education is by no means cheap, unless you're doing something like a Bachelor of English, and even then it's several thousands of dollars per year. I did my degree in Graphic Design and that was $15,000 a year.

Are we as bad as America? No, but we're hardly cheap either.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Well a few thousand for a degree sounds about right, and you only have to start paying it back when you're earning a high enough wage too.

ah, I see. thanks for clarification. That's affordable by just having a part time job while studying or generous parents.

I understand that's what the others were saying, which is again my point, State University should be this cheap, affordable, and encouraged, not the community alternatives which should be WAY cheap.



Basically ultimately in the end conclusively; Keeping Education laughably expensive creates and maintains a landed aristocracy who keep both the money and knowledge in the group. The level of wealth disparity in the U.S.A and Europe is in part reflected by the availability of education in the respective areas.


is that all? nope. but it's huge, and just absolutely necessary to have huge education reform in the U.S. if we are going to maintain any level of respect, wealth or well being.


This needs to happen as badly as financial reform, as tax reform, as basically just cultural reform, because it ultimately it all stems from a society that accepts unilateral greed, surveillance and selfishness as simply something to be accepted, or respected even . The roots of the financial crisis go deep into the American psyche, of unabashed, self-serving idiocy almost always at the expense of others with no regards to the consequences.

We're going to have bubble after bubble, bust after bust, if we don't have fundamental reform in the very psyche of us as a people.