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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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dave is ok said:
In Enron's world it is not possible to overcharge for anything. If you overcharge for healthcare or education or energy the Free Market Gods perched high upon Mount Reagan smite you down.

i'm really really trying to think this. Actual Neo-Cons and Friedmanites don't actually believe their own bullshit, they know its bankrupt morally but so are they, but it benefits them and they know it. It's like News Corp owning 'liberal' media, it's cynical self serving manipulation.

I'm glad we have people like Enron fighting for the sake of economic tyrants everywhere, and of course masking it in bootstrap feel good rhetoric
 
dave is ok said:
In Enron's world it is not possible to overcharge for anything. If you overcharge for healthcare or education or energy the Free Market Gods perched high upon Mount Reagan smite you down.

I wish I could be that naive again, I'd be a lot happier.
 
BotoxAgent said:
financial aid is a necessary good. My parents were immigrants not making that much at first, so I had to work hard all my life ....earning straight As and scoring high on my SATs...working a part time job to support myself, taking extra AP classes and staying overtime at school. And I ended getting accepted to a lot of good schools, and I earned it. And I am glad that I received some federal aid to help me attend the school I wanted and deserved. Now I graduated and have a great-paying job, and doing better than what my parents ever dreamed.

Good schools shouldn't just be exclusive to the currently affluent. Otherwise, the class inequality that exists in this country will just continue to widen if people's potential is neutered.

i'm happy for your success, *brofist*, and basically what we and you want is for that opportunity to be widened to everyone who wants it. There are a lot of smart people who didn't get scholarships or aid who were never able to attend Uni or even CC because of its price, and that's really my point, we are stifled collectively because of greed and the mentality of the greedy perpetuated by those they hurt.
 

Enron

Banned
You guys sure do make a lot of assumptions!


dave is ok said:
In Enron's world it is not possible to overcharge for anything. If you overcharge for healthcare or education or energy the Free Market Gods perched high upon Mount Reagan smite you down.

I said nothing of the sort, about free markets or anything else. Bromega and others say that even state school is UNAFFORDABLE for most people that want to go and those that do go are "slaves" when they get out. I said none of that was true, supported by actual data. Oddly enough, I didn't get any responses to that particular post. Hmmm, wonder why.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Only richies should go to Ivy League schools. If peasants can go, they might get the notion they can rise above the social station into which they were born, and that's just un-American.
 

RedShift

Member
Enron said:
You guys sure do make a lot of assumptions!
As far as I can see your argument is if you weren't lucky enough to be born into a rich family you don't deserve to go to one of the best universities?

That's so stupid it hurts, the best students should get the best degrees. Man, if a politician said that here they'd get ripped to shreds.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
Enron said:
I said nothing of the sort, about free markets or anything else. Bromega and others say that even state school is UNAFFORDABLE for most people that want to go and those that do go are "slaves" when they get out. I said none of that was true, supported by actual data. Oddly enough, I didn't get any responses to that particular post. Hmmm, wonder why.
You never actually qualified what you consider "affordable".

30k? 40k? What is it?
 

Enron

Banned
Dude Abides said:
Only richies should go to Ivy League schools. If peasants can go, they might get the notion they can rise above the social station into which they were born, and that's just un-American.

I know you are just trying to be funny, but this is also not true. Some of the info linked in the actual article is particularly eye-opening. These institutions have very generous aid packages.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/22/ivy-league-colleges-affordable-for-low-income-families/

Here is a snapshot of what Ivy League colleges offer in financial aid:

Brown University: A family earning less than $60,000 and having less than $100,000 in assets pays nothing toward tuition.

Columbia University: Columbia has a median grant income of $75,000, meaning both lower and median income families will receive aid. It has sample aid packages to look over.

Cornell University: Cornell has eliminated need-based loans for families making less than $75,000 and capped yearly loans for students at $3,000. There is no parent contribution for families earning less than $60,000 with assets of less than $100,000.

Dartmouth: Once the parents' contribution is determined through the FAFSA and the school's College Scholarships Service's PROFILE program, Dartmouth will meet 100% of of the remaining financial needs. The college has a cost estimator to help.

Harvard: The family contribution for families that make between $60,000 and $180, 000 is about 10% of their income. Families making less than $60,000 will receive need based aid. Harvard does not count home equity as an asset when considering the family's financial contribution.
Penn: University of Pennsylvania is committed to meeting "100% of the student's determined need." Dependent students are not required to take out loans for their education, and outside scholarships can go toward the student's self-help portion of their tuition.

Princeton: Grants and campus jobs are an integral part of the college's commitment in meeting 100% of each student's need. Students are not required to take out loans to attend Princeton, which has an aid estimator.

Yale: Yale uses a formula to determine parents' contribution that takes into account the Parents' total income, assets, and family size.
 
Alpha-Bromega said:
i'm happy for your success, *brofist*, and basically what we and you want is for that opportunity to be widened to everyone who wants it. There are a lot of smart people who didn't get scholarships or aid who were never able to attend Uni or even CC because of its price, and that's really my point, we are stifled collectively because of greed and the mentality of the greedy perpetuated by those they hurt.

internethighfive.gif :)
 

Enron

Banned
RedShift said:
As far as I can see your argument is if you weren't lucky enough to be born into a rich family you don't deserve to go to one of the best universities?

That's so stupid it hurts, the best students should get the best degrees. Man, if a politician said that here they'd get ripped to shreds.

You people sure do assign a lot of value to these "best" universities. The feeling in these last two pages is that if you are smart enough but cant afford a "good" school, then you are somehow fucked. Which is 100% NOT TRUE.
 
Enron said:
Im talking about the guy that said "people on GAF are paying $250k for an education! How is that fair???"

If you had bothered to read the last few posts, you'd have known that's what that was about.

A 250k dollar education (again, that the other poster brought up) is most certainly an Ivy League-level education, and would be akin to someone driving a Lambo when they couldn't afford one. You don't need a Lambo to get around in, just like you don't need a 250k education to get a good job.

"This BMW M5 put me 100k dollars into debt!!! How is that fair!!!!"



Since you seem to have missed it




Are you saying that a STATE UNIVERSITY is costing you upwards of 60k dollars a year? Because if so, you are full of fucking bullshit.


You're comparing pathways of education to owning luxury cars!!

Right now in America there are pathways in education that cost $250,000 to complete, that is morally reprehensible. It's disgusting and I don't see how anyone can view it other than institutionalised elitism.
 

Enron

Banned
dave is ok said:
You never actually qualified what you consider "affordable".

30k? 40k? What is it?

That would break down to 8-10k a year. Both of those are affordable figures for your average family. At the time I graduated from high school, my family didn't have a lot of money and both my sister and I were able to go to state university at a cost of zero dollars to our family through a combination of Grants, scholarships, and loans. It's very doable, and paying back a loan in that range isn't that big of a deal once you've graduated and gone on into the workforce. For those that are having difficulty finding employment for wahtever reason, there are deferrments available (i know because I was one of those and I had to defer my loans over and over).


travisbickle said:
You're comparing pathways of education to owning luxury cars!!

Right now in America there are pathways in education that cost $250,000 to complete, that is morally reprehensible. It's disgusting and I don't see how anyone can view it other than institutionalised elitism.

I'd agree with you if it weren't a private school. But private schools can charge whatever they want.

However, those same educational pathways at state schools cost considerably less. Your degree just won't have the fancy brand on it. Just like the poster below me, I too don't assign much value to WHERE you went to school. That may be necessary to get certain jobs, but those jobs are so few and far between chances of you landing one aren't good to begin with even with a degree from a prestigious institution.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Alpha-Bromega said:
Seriously, NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT PRESTIGIOUS BULLSHIT, we're talking about our State Universities. They are prohibitively expensive, this is a fact deducted simply by putting the equivalent of 1 and 2 together to get 3.

What State? The University of Michigan, in-state tuition is around $15K and tack on $8-9K for room and board. So for a 4 year degree you're talking $100K for an education at a TOP university. The question is, what are the students studying? Some degrees are inherently more valuable and pay better and usually when these stories come up it's about some philosophy or English major who wonders why they can't get a good paying job with their $100K degree.

That being said, I don't think there is even a need to go to a top university. Where you end up is determined far more by your drive and ability to network, get an internship, make a good impression, etc. That can be done for much, much less than $100K.
 
Kosmo said:
What State? The University of Michigan, in-state tuition is around $15K and tack on $8-9K for room and board. So for a 4 year degree you're talking $100K for an education at a TOP university. The question is, what are the students studying? Some degrees are inherently more valuable and pay better and usually when these stories come up it's about some philosophy or English major who wonders why they can't get a good paying job with their $100K degree.

That being said, I don't think there is even a need to go to a top university. Where you end up is determined far more by your drive and ability to network, get an internship, make a good impression, etc. That can be done for much, much less than $100K.

Arizona, NAU specifically which is the cheapest and by far the smallest.


There isn't a need to go to high end or top Universities, they are superflous with lots of fancy stuff, but but when we're talking about thousands of dollars to simply afford a year of a modest state University, let alone tens of thousands, don't you see the deep deep hole we've dug ourselves in?


And yeah, some degrees are by practical economic purposes worth more, but an educated person, regardless of his trade or speciality, is still more of an asset to the community and to the world, and is a better person all around, when they are educated.

Huge respect for engineers, i mean i'm in Germany after all which is famous for them, but there's just an opportunity for them as there is for anybody else in terms of those wanting to pursue an education here.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Alpha-Bromega said:
Arizona, NAU specifically which is the cheapest and by far the smallest.


There isn't a need to go to high end or top Universities, they are superflous with lots of fancy stuff, but but when we're talking about thousands of dollars to simply afford a year of a modest state University, let alone tens of thousands, don't you see the deep deep hole we've dug ourselves in?

Only if you choose a degree without a market.
 
Kosmo said:
Only if you choose a degree without a market.

irrelevant. An educated person is still worth more to society than an uneducated one, bar none. I don't give 2 shits if they are the studying the philosophy of left handed writers, they've learned skills and ability to critically think and ultimately to work hard, many times collaborating and achieve goals in a structured manner. Kind of sounds like a decent paying job in that general way, eh?


if there is a market for a degree, and the Uni is affordable; That market will have a lot more skilled people in it.

We should never justify unaffordable education holistically because there is or is not a huge market for such and such degree at such and such a time.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Enron said:
I know you are just trying to be funny, but this is also not true. Some of the info linked in the actual article is particularly eye-opening. These institutions have very generous aid packages.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/22/ivy-league-colleges-affordable-for-low-income-families/

I know it's not strictly true, but it's what you're arguing should be the case.

Kosmo said:
That being said, I don't think there is even a need to go to a top university. Where you end up is determined far more by your drive and ability to network, get an internship, make a good impression, etc. That can be done for much, much less than $100K.

This is true if you have no aspirations to be in the top tier of your field.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Alpha-Bromega said:
irrelevant. An educated person is still worth more to society than an uneducated one, bar none. I don't give 2 shits if they are the studying the philosophy of left handed writers, they've learned skills and ability to critically think and ultimately to work hard, many times collaborating and achieve goals in a structured manner. Kind of sounds like a decent paying job in that general way, eh?


if there is a market for a degree, and the Uni is affordable; That market will have a lot more skilled people in it.

We should never justify unaffordable education holistically because there is or is not a huge market for such and such degree at such and such a time.

I disagree. By that logic, your average out of work philosophy major is worth more to society than the likes of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates because they never finished college.

The problem that has cropped up in the entitlement generation is that they think simply because they have a degree in something like marketing, they should be hired on and run a national campaign and taking an entry level job is beneath them or they feel like they are getting shit on being asked to do certain menial tasks. The current economy will change that mentality quickly.
 
Kosmo said:
Where you end up is determined far more by your drive and ability to network, get an internship, make a good impression, etc.

eh, wrong. Top universities also help you with these things, even better than lesser schools. Actually, if getting a jerb is only determined by these things then rich people who can afford the top tier schools will be even more at an advantage, then God help us all :-/
 

venne

Member
The elephant in the room is that there are seven billion people on the planet.

Robotics, computers, and automation all mean less people are needed to do more things. All the education in the world doesn't matter if a robot or AI can do it faster, better, and cheaper. I believe this will affect all professional fields. We are steadily approaching human obsolescence, which could be the greatest or worst thing to happen to human civilization depending on how we handle it.

I'd suggest it is better to work on resource allocation now, before we hit crisis mode.
 
Kosmo said:
I disagree. By that logic, your average out of work philosophy major is worth more to society than the likes of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates because they never finished college.

The problem that has cropped up in the entitlement generation is that they think simply because they have a degree in something like marketing, they should be hired on and run a national campaign and taking an entry level job is beneath them or they feel like they are getting shit on being asked to do certain menial tasks. The current economy will change that mentality quickly.

entitlement generation!? dooooood!!!

I agree that one is not entitled to a high-salary top-of-the-line job automatically after graduating. But I do believe people should be equipped with the best possible tools to compete in the real world.

the only people who have been undeservedly entitled this generation are the whiny greedy tax-avoiding rich, not the poor struggling middle class. They are the ones begging lobbying the govt to make the world cater to their own rules.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
venne said:
The elephant in the room is that there are seven billion people on the planet.

Robotics, computers, and automation all mean less people are needed to do more things. All the education in the world doesn't matter if a robot or AI can do it faster, better, and cheaper. I believe this will affect all professional fields. We are steadily approaching human obsolescence, which could be the greatest or worst thing to happen to human civilization depending on how we handle it.

I'd suggest it is better to work on resource allocation now, before we hit crisis mode.

What would be good is if we could grow the fuck up as a species and realize that humanity... the living of human life isn't about economic production and work.

Ideally, we'd take all the time that the machines freed up to just learn and be creative - to allow us to be the best people that we could be.

Or we could let a handful of people use machines to subjugate the rest of us to poverty and suffering, discarding even the bonds of servitude that they wrest over us now.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Kosmo said:
I disagree. By that logic, your average out of work philosophy major is worth more to society than the likes of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates because they never finished college.

The problem that has cropped up in the entitlement generation is that they think simply because they have a degree in something like marketing, they should be hired on and run a national campaign and taking an entry level job is beneath them or they feel like they are getting shit on being asked to do certain menial tasks. The current economy will change that mentality quickly.

The rich have convinced us the sole virtue of living is to be rich. They've caused self doubt and loathing in the rest of us that through the nature of the structure of the machine that binds us all would be impossible to be anything otherwise. There will always be those that are rich and those are poor - but to cause the poor to hate themselves for been poor - to blame themselves for been poor - to cause us to believe that because we are poor we are unworthy as people - to cause us to sow hate and distrust among each other - that is their ultimate victory, even as they laugh at our servility and self wallowing hatred.

People are working harder - each of us are becoming more productive. In large part due to changes in organization and technology - but also because we are literally been driven to work harder. The idea that it is now standard for both husband and wife to work to support the household - that 8 hour days are now short work days is proof positive of that much. Our education levels are higher than ever.

But despite the massive gains in productivity, despite us providing more and more of our time and lives to the machines of corporation - we fail to be commensurately compensated. After factoring for work productivity and work time increases, we are actually been paid less; adjusted for real dollar terms.

Moreover, the critical elements of living - a shelter overhead, the education that makes us more informed and better people now cost more than ever - far outstripping the rate of overall inflation.

We might have better TVs, and smartphones. But it's cost us our families, our homes and our environments to get them. For us to continue hating ourselves on the basis of our lack of wealth - to continue conflating wealth with virtue, we've become as plague to the planet and to ourselves.
 

venne

Member
Zaptruder said:
What would be good is if we could grow the fuck up as a species and realize that humanity... the living of human life isn't about economic production and work.

Ideally, we'd take all the time that the machines freed up to just learn and be creative - to allow us to be the best people that we could be.

Or we could let a handful of people use machines to subjugate the rest of us to poverty and suffering, discarding even the bonds of servitude that they wrest over us now.
Agree 100%.
 
great post Zaptruder, and BotoxAgent.

ultimately this current discussion seems to be derived from very basic and fundamental differences of opinion.

I don't know why you are mentioning an entitlement generation, especially as such a bad word, a word to throw around to delegitimate legitimate ideas, when these so called 'entitlements' are simply basic human rights that the rest of the west receive without a second thought; affordable education and healthcare. simple as that.
 
Alpha-Bromega said:
I don't know why you are mentioning an entitlement generation, especially as such a bad word, a word to throw around to delegitimate legitimate ideas, when these so called 'entitlements' are simply basic human rights that the rest of the west receive without a second thought; affordable education and healthcare. simple as that.

Not to mention that we do, indeed, work for them and that all we are talking about is the most efficient means to distribute these services. Of course, in that respect, it is perfectly fitting to call it an entitlement, and we ought to feel entitled.
 

Azih

Member
x Power Pad Death Stomp x said:
> things done in the most efficient way possible

> things done by the government

choose one
What? I rely on the government for clean water that is available EVERYTIME I TURN ON THE TAP and for the best sewage services in the history of mankind. It's insane how efficient it its.
 

daycru

Member
Azih said:
What? I rely on the government for clean water that is available EVERYTIME I TURN ON THE TAP and for the best sewage services in the history of mankind. It's insane how efficient it its.
Clean water... every time? Entitlement culture outta control!
 
daycru said:
Clean water... every time? Entitlement culture outta control!

if it was privatized that shit would be sparkling

privatized water was so good in Bolivia that they partied so hard in the streets and drank just so much water, that the Bolivian government had to go back on their contract and make water public again. The Bolivians sure were disappointed that day...
 

jorma

is now taking requests
Azih said:
What? I rely on the government for clean water that is available EVERYTIME I TURN ON THE TAP and for the best sewage services in the history of mankind. It's insane how efficient it its.

Where i live, we are essentialy getting cold tapwater that in most cases has better quality than bottled water, and we get it for free - that's so efficient it's borderline criminal. No money is being made by any corporation.
 
Come on guys. Where's the support for Occupy Hogwarts? It's a serious issue! Magic shouldn't be hoarded like that! Why should billions have to suffer because thousands refuse to share!

What's the passions guys? Where's the fire?!

301490_232086066846277_228652370522980_582688_636055554_n.jpg
 

Chichikov

Member
SpectreFire said:
Come on guys. Where's the support for Occupy Hogwarts? It's a serious issue! Magic shouldn't be hoarded like that! Why should billions have to suffer because thousands refuse to share!

What's the passions guys? Where's the fire?!
it's funny because Howarts is not a real place.
 
Chichikov said:
it's funny because Howarts is not a real place.
Yes it is. It's just impossible to find if you're not a wizard because it's protected by magical barriers.

JK Rowling wrote an entire series of journals explaining in depth the nature of the whole magical world and the school.

It's absolutely eye opening stuff. You should give it a read before you spew out unfounded nonsense like that.
 

Kosmo

Banned
empty vessel said:
Not to mention that we do, indeed, work for them and that all we are talking about is the most efficient means to distribute these services. Of course, in that respect, it is perfectly fitting to call it an entitlement, and we ought to feel entitled.

What should be the requirements for someone to get those services? Simply citizenship? Should they have to provide a service for the government? Are you talking a wholly communist society where the government decides what will be produced, everyone will be given a job to do and all services/products will be shared equally?
 
the big boys are talking, this shit really isn't that funny at all

What should be the requirements for someone to get those services? Simply citizenship? Should they have to provide a service for the government? Are you talking a wholly communist society where the government decides what will be produced, everyone will be given a job to do and all services/products will be shared equally?

this is a huge, huge leap and false equivalency. Try and say that Germany is communist with a straight face
 
Alpha-Bromega said:
the big boys are talking, this shit really isn't that funny at all
I thought the Occupy movement was to Occupy Everywhere and Occupy Together?

What's with the exclusivity? I'm trying to bring up a serious issue and you're just tossing it to the wayside.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Alpha-Bromega said:
this is a huge, huge leap and false equivalency. Try and say that Germany is communist with a straight face

I'm just asking for the requirements for someone, say myself, who is born to middle class parents, who decides that I don't really want to work. I want to attend some classes for fun and get decent housing, food, and healthcare from the government and maybe throw in a little internet, since that seems to be a "right" in the eyes of many.
 
Kosmo said:
I'm just asking for the requirements for someone, say myself, who is born to middle class parents, who decides that I don't really want to work. I want to attend some classes for fun and get decent housing, food, and healthcare from the government and maybe throw in a little internet, since that seems to be a "right" in the eyes of many.

what type of fantasy world is this? what point are you trying to make with it?

this isn't based in any sort of reality except some sort of friedmanite nightmare that you're trying to use to wholesale delegitimate social systems that are clearly prospering in other lands.

It just shows how little understanding of what we are actually proposing, and what actually is in place around the world and are just creating fantasy worlds of 'worst case scenarios' where someone is lazy? i guess?

you're acting like a Reefer Madness 1950's HUAC with this scare tactic nonsense.

Could Bobby be getting healthcare with that sort of premium? are those generic drugs? Looks like someone needs them a good learnin' !
 

Enron

Banned
Alpha-Bromega said:
the big boys are talking, this shit really isn't that funny at all

Oh, it can be funny. We should find a little humor in serious topics every now and again - but that was just lame.

I've been accused of trolling like 30000234 times in this thread, but that was straight up trollan'
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
Taibbi: Wall Street Isn't Winning, It's Cheating

I was at an event on the Upper East Side last Friday night when I got to talking with a salesman in the media business. The subject turned to Zucotti Park and Occupy Wall Street, and he was chuckling about something he'd heard on the news.

"I hear [Occupy Wall Street] has a CFO," he said. "I think that's funny."

"Okay, I'll bite," I said. "Why is that funny?"

"Well, I heard they're trying to decide what back to put their money in," he said, munching on hors d'oeuvres. "It's just kind of ironic."

Oh, Christ, I thought. He’s saying the protesters are hypocrites because they’re using banks. I sighed.

"Listen," I said, "where else are you going to put three hundred thousand dollars? A shopping bag?"

"Well," he said, "it's just, they're protests are all about... You know..."

"Dude," I said. "These people aren't protesting money. They're not protesting banking. They're protesting corruption on Wall Street."

"Whatever," he said, shrugging.

These nutty criticisms of the protests are spreading like cancer. Earlier that same day, I'd taped a TV segment on CNN with Will Cain from the National Review, and we got into an argument on the air. Cain and I agreed about a lot of the problems on Wall Street, but when it came to the protesters, we disagreed on one big thing.

Cain said he believed that the protesters are driven by envy of the rich.

"I find the one thing [the protesters] have in common revolves around the human emotions of envy and entitlement," he said. "What you have is more than what I have, and I'm not happy with my situation."

Cain seems like a nice enough guy, but I nearly blew my stack when I heard this. When you take into consideration all the theft and fraud and market manipulation and other evil shit Wall Street bankers have been guilty of in the last ten-fifteen years, you have to have balls like church bells to trot out a propaganda line that says the protesters are just jealous of their hard-earned money.

Think about it: there have always been rich and poor people in America, so if this is about jealousy, why the protests now? The idea that masses of people suddenly discovered a deep-seated animus/envy toward the rich – after keeping it strategically hidden for decades – is crazy.

Where was all that class hatred in the Reagan years, when openly dumping on the poor became fashionable? Where was it in the last two decades, when unions disappeared and CEO pay relative to median incomes started to triple and quadruple?

The answer is, it was never there. If anything, just the opposite has been true. Americans for the most part love the rich, even the obnoxious rich. And in recent years, the harder things got, the more we obsessed over the wealth dream. As unemployment skyrocketed, people tuned in in droves to gawk at Evrémonde-heiresses like Paris Hilton, or watch bullies like Donald Trump fire people on TV.

Moreover, the worse the economy got, the more being a millionaire or a billionaire became a qualification for high office, as people flocked to voting booths to support politicians with names like Bloomberg and Rockefeller and Corzine, names that to voters symbolized success and expertise at a time when few people seemed to have answers. At last count, there were 245 millionaires in congress, including 66 in the Senate.

And we hate the rich? Come on. Success is the national religion, and almost everyone is a believer. Americans love winners. But that's just the problem. These guys on Wall Street are not winning – they're cheating. And as much as we love the self-made success story, we hate the cheater that much more.

We cheer for people who hit their own home runs in this country, not shortcut-chasing juicers like Bonds and McGwire, Blankfein and Dimon.

That's why it's so obnoxious when people say the protesters are just sore losers who are jealous of these smart guys in suits who beat them at the game of life. This isn't disappointment at having lost. It's anger because those other guys didn't really win, and people now want the score overturned.
 

Enron

Banned
New York couple tries to trademark "Occupy Wall Street"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/25/us/new-york-occupy-trademark/index.html

New York couple tries to trademark 'Occupy Wall St.' - CNN.com
By Kristina Sgueglia, CNN
2011-10-25T12:00:00Z
New York (CNN) -- A Long Island couple wants to trademark the slogan "Occupy Wall St." with the intent to sell sweatshirts, T-shirts, bumper stickers and hobo bags, among other merchandise.

"I'm no marketing genius, but when you got something that's across 50 states, it's a brand now," said 44-year-old Robert Maresca of West Islip, New York.

Maresca's wife, Diane, filed a trademark application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office on October 18 and paid a fee of $975.

The move has some Occupy Wall Street supporters perplexed.

"The goal of OWS is not to become a profitable business," said Tyler Combelic, an Occupy Wall Street spokesman. "Anything that misconstrues it as such, such as trademarking for the sake of profiting, is missing the point of protest."

But Robert Maresca sees things differently.

"I'm the best person they could imagine buying the slogan, because no one has their interest more than myself," he said. "This is an important slogan; somebody else might have gotten a hold of it."

A former union iron worker, Maresca is now a stay-at-home father of three after suffering a stroke and sustaining a work injury nine years ago. He said he became a supporter of Occupy Wall Street once the union began backing the cause.

"I'm also really against corporate money distorting elections," he said.

Maresca, who calls himself a "fiscally conservative but socially liberal" political independent, said his idea stemmed from creating shirts drawn with markers down on Wall Street. But it was his wife -- whom he describes as apolitical -- who filed the application because Maresca does not have a credit card.

But Combelic said Maresca's attempt runs counter to the Occupy Wall Street mission.

"I think they are taking what is meant to represent 99% of America and instead making it represent an individual," he said.

Steve Mancinelli, an intellectual property lawyer in New York, said legally, "you don't get to own words because you think them up."

He said that the Marescas' "intent of use" application would be approved if they have a "bona fide intention" to produce items for commerce. It would take two to three months until the application is reviewed, at which point a separate "use" application will need to be submitted, Mancinelli said.

Trademark privileges would give the Marescas' ownership of "Occupy Wall St." the brand, as well as the use of such text on merchandise labels.

Mancinelli said he, too, was confused that "someone from the OWS gang, which has demonstrated anti-capitalist ideals, would engage in a fundamental capitalist activity, like trademarking."

When asked where proceeds would go, Robert Maresca said, "it's my intent to have them (Occupy Wall Street supporters) get the maximum benefit possible after any expenses."

While Maresca said it was too soon to make any promises, "it is my hope to transfer ownership of the trademark to OWS if it's feasible."

He said he would even sell the trademark to Occupy Wall Street members, if they wanted it, for just $1 -- after they repaid his expenses.

Combelic said he doesn't think fellow Occupy Wall Street protesters will be too eager to don trademarked "Occupy" clothing.

"We already make T-shirts down there for free, screen-printing on site," he said. "We think that organic individual marketing -- making our own buttons or T-shirts -- is more valuable."
 

avaya

Member
Zaptruder said:
The rich have convinced us the sole virtue of living is to be rich. They've caused self doubt and loathing in the rest of us that through the nature of the structure of the machine that binds us all would be impossible to be anything otherwise. There will always be those that are rich and those are poor - but to cause the poor to hate themselves for been poor - to blame themselves for been poor - to cause us to believe that because we are poor we are unworthy as people - to cause us to sow hate and distrust among each other - that is their ultimate victory, even as they laugh at our servility and self wallowing hatred.

People are working harder - each of us are becoming more productive. In large part due to changes in organization and technology - but also because we are literally been driven to work harder. The idea that it is now standard for both husband and wife to work to support the household - that 8 hour days are now short work days is proof positive of that much. Our education levels are higher than ever.

But despite the massive gains in productivity, despite us providing more and more of our time and lives to the machines of corporation - we fail to be commensurately compensated. After factoring for work productivity and work time increases, we are actually been paid less; adjusted for real dollar terms.

Moreover, the critical elements of living - a shelter overhead, the education that makes us more informed and better people now cost more than ever - far outstripping the rate of overall inflation.

We might have better TVs, and smartphones. But it's cost us our families, our homes and our environments to get them. For us to continue hating ourselves on the basis of our lack of wealth - to continue conflating wealth with virtue, we've become as plague to the planet and to ourselves.

Post of the thread. God damn. Post of the thread.
 
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